Detect Evil - house rule.

[Rannath]

Here's a house rule I'm fiddling with for my next campaign.

Alignment detection does not detect alignment. Instead it detects actions of certain alignments.

I'm trying to make the ability more... flavourfull, what I need are suggestions to keep it from being abused (like most scrying spells).

EDIT As of August 23, 2011:
Alright, I forgot to mention this, but I got the original idea from ghost rider. I like the idea of a paladin being able to penance stare someone (minus the damage).

Here's what I'm thinking now:

limited range (look into the target's eyes (effectively touch))
evil intent you can see for (wis/cha mod) rounds
evil actions you can see for (wis/cha mod) days
that's for the lowest sins, as sins become more severe rounds becomes minutes becomes hours, etc. (rounds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years, forever).
atoned actions do not show up


Here's the question now. How would you break this?

[Fiery Diamond]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Do you just cast it and randomly look at the air and you are suddenly aware of evil actions that occurred in the vicinity? Do you cast it and look at someone, as normal, but instead of getting their alignment you get glimpses of evil actions that they have committed in the past? The way you have this phrased really doesn't make much sense. If you're talking about directing it at a person, what are you talking about with silhouettes?

Furthermore, this belongs in the 3.5 section.

[Rannath]

Look at someone and see their sins. Perhaps as silhouettes in the air around them (as an example, the actual manifestation is up to the DM/player). The question is how to keep this alteration from being overpowered for an ability gained at level one.

Detect Evil was in 2ed. in a similarish format and I'd like the opinion of 2eders, so this belongs here.

[Kuma Kode]

Being able to not only detect evil but actually get a general idea of their sins means it will pretty much end any murder investigation style adventure. Law enforcement would become much more efficient. Just consider what that kind of thing would do to the world if you could have a level 1 paladin as a detective.

[hamishspence]

Dragonbait the saurial paladin's aura-vision in Azure Bonds was a bit like this, but less specific.

It didn't tell him what the person had done- but it told him the type of evil that tended to be present in their personality.

Red was hatred
Yellow was greed
Green was jealousy
Purple was sadism
Black was fear (in its more evil forms).

[DonEsteban]

Well, it is a scrying spell. (And a nice one, too, that I might use in the future.) I don't see any way how it wouldn't look like one. So it's probably not 1st level. Unless you add a chance of failure, perhaps.

If you were looking for something else, you could just change it to detect evil actions instead of evil aligned creatures:
Faint: Did something moderately evil long ago.
Moderate: Did some minor evil, like kicking his dog or something strongly evil long ago.
Strong: Did something really evil, like kicking his children or something overwhelmingly evil long ago.
Overwhelming: Did something really, really evil, like kicking the universe.

Or, if you want to use the 2ed version then use it!

[Roderick_BR]

If I remember well, in AD&D, it detected evil intent, for example, you could tell someone was about to attack an innocent, or tell if someone was selling loot they just got from some citizen, or if that spell caster was really going to cast a useful or harmful spell on you. In a way, it would be like a normal detect evil spell, except the the target would register as evil depending on what he is planning to do, not his usual alignment. You could detect a orc, and get nothing, since he's not really thinking about anything, just how he'll roast that pig he killed, but an elf that just had the idea to kill some infants because he hates the race (that technically are innocent and didn't harm him in anyway yet), will ping when you look around.

Your idea is good. Some of the effects would need to be gained at higher levels, as people alerady said.

[Shadowknight12]

Taken straight out of my house rules:



Revised Alignment Rules

Spells:

Only have alignment descriptors when they are siphoning energy from outsiders or gods, NOT negative/positive energy. Rule of thumb: If it doesn't say specifically that it has something to do with evil outsiders (like the spell Devil's Eyes) evil itself or evil gods, then it doesn't have the [Evil] descriptor. Same for Good, Law and Chaos. Casting many spells of that kind does shift alignment, however (since it's vastly assumed that trafficking with self-proclaimed sources of Evil is evil by most standards. Only the severely abnormal wouldn't see a correlation).

Classes:

Paladins are bound to be Good, not Lawful. Each of the three variations have their own orders and creeds, and they come into conflict often. Every paladin creates his or her own code, and they fall only if they break it. The Atonement spell has no XP cost, and it must give out a short quest for the character to perform, in which they gain absolutely no benefit for their risk (no XP, no gold, no items, nothing), other than the atonement itself.
Clerics remain unchanged. Their only addendum is that they too must create their own code, like paladins, and have the same "fall" mechanic.
Druids remain unchanged. Their only addendum is that they too must create their own code, like paladins, and have the same "fall" mechanic.
Classes that are not divine or associated specifically with good, evil, law or chaos, have no alignment requirement.
Classes that can fall from grace only fall if the character believes they have broken their own code. If the character firmly believes that they have acted within the boundaries of their codes, they do not risk falling from grace.

Races:

There's no such thing as racial alignment. All races (save non-native outsiders) are uniformly varied in their alignments. Undead retain the alignment they had in life. Mindless undead default to True Neutral, like animals and everything else that is mindless.

Detect Evil and the like:

Alignment is not an on/off switch. It's murky and functions more like a "corruption" or "taint" than a simple label. What you detect with the Detect Alignment spells is the general amount of "alignment" that the subject has done in their lives up until that point, according to the spellcaster's definition of alignment. For example, a paladin using her Detect Evil ability on a beggar would see the amount of "evil" that beggar has done in his life up until that point. The visual effects vary from caster to caster. Some see it as dark blotches on the skin, others see it as shadows, others as an "uglyfication of the visage" or some other unpleasant effect. Of course, like I said, this depends on what the paladin considers as evil. If she believes that laziness is evil, she might see the man reeking of "evil" when he's actually a pretty nice guy.

Spells and effects that target alignment:

They only function if the caster is aware of the target's alignment. If a cleric uses Holy Word, the spell will only affect those targets whose alignments she has previously identified with a Detect Evil spell or similar (which is subject to subjective interpretations of alignment). The same goes for a paladin's Smite Evil class feature. A paladin must first Detect Evil on her target before Smite Evil can be used. The effect fails if the caster is aware that her target is not valid (obviously). The effect also fails if she does not know if the target is valid (such as, if a considerable amount of time has passed between the moment the caster has used Detect Evil and the moment she uses Holy Word).

Maybe any of this can help.

[Infernalbargain]

I've been thinking about it working based off of caster's perception. So if the caster doesn't believe that kicking baby puppies is evil, then a baby puppy kicker wouldn't show up.

[Mike_G]

I've never liked the blanket, at will Detect Evil as written.

In earlier editions, if memory serves, only evil outsiders, big bad monsters and clerics of evil deities registered, not am Evil apprentice pickpocket, or landlord who waters the beer. (Although, that is pretty evil.)

We houseruled the Paladin ability as a bonus to Sense Motive tahts scales with level. It's harder to lie to a Paladin, and they can see through lies more easily, but it's not just automatic, free as many times per day as you want, and annoying to intrigue type adventures in a lower magic area or at low levels where it's just not believable to assume that every two cp cutpurse has a Ring of Nondetection.

[randomhero00]

OP I think it could be pulled off. The DM just needs to be vague in his descriptions.

For instance: You see Dan the sheep herder stabbing Velma...

vs

You see a blurry shape* (describe dan's build), striking another (describe velma) I also see sheep, and a dagger.

when describing shapes be vague as well for instance if Dan is 6 foot, fat, with cheap clothing you'd describe him as "tall, large, and everyday clothing".

edit: so over all it'd come out as: "You see a tall male, in everyday clothing, with a large belly, striking a woman with a short blade in anger."

[Hiro Protagonest]

Dragonbait the saurial paladin's aura-vision in Azure Bonds was a bit like this, but less specific.

It didn't tell him what the person had done- but it told him the type of evil that tended to be present in their personality.

Red was hatred
Yellow was greed
Green was jealousy
Purple was sadism
Black was fear (in its more evil forms).

His actual name is Champion.

That's not how it worked. Flames like those in Hell marked evil, a small flame marked good, a roaring yellow or white fire marked strong good, and a big gray mountain marked a proud neutral man.

[hamishspence]

"Champion of Justice" is his real name, but in all the books, he's consistantly called by the nickname Alias gave him.

While there's a bit more to it than just the colour- sometimes shapes, like a mountain, or a flame, play a part, colour is the main definer:

Page 345: Azure Bonds:

Phalse glowed like a city put to the torch by invaders. His maliciousness ran the gamut of yellow greed, red hatred, and a sickly green jealousy.

Page 62: Masquerades:

"What color evil are we talking here?" she asked.
"Purple," the paladin whispered, though he could not be overheard"
Alias felt a knot in her gut. Purple evil was the most disturbing kind to her. Purple evil took pleasure in the pain of others. Purple liked to be the inflicter of that pain.
Page 276: Masquerades:

As Thistle chattered on about the longer growing season required for melons, the paladin closed his eyes and reached out with his shen sight.

He let the myriad colors slide along his consciousness. He stopped, focusing on a very dark purple to his right. He peeked out one eye. Kimbel, the former assassin, stood on a staircase, watching the guests from behind the guards.

Dragonbait closed his eye again. In a moment, he could sense a deep red hatred sprinkled with green jealousy. The paladin confirmed his guess. Haztor Urdo, hating Alias, jealous of Victor's pleasure in her company.

With his eyes squeezed tightly shut, the paladin let the colors wash over him longer, until he could sense their pattern as they moved about the blue that he knew must be Alias, as they stepped back from her, circled around her, pulled her close.

Blackness like a shroud covered the blue flame of Alias's spirit, blackness so dark, it devoured the light from her, giving up none of it. Blackness was the lust for power, the voracious appetite for control over others, the desire that swallowed its own tail and devoured the being's own universe.

Dragonbait whirled and glared at the man holding Alias in his arms. Once again, where Victor stood, the paladin saw the blue flame so like Alias's. Now he concentrated on what lay beneath the blue. As if Victor's soul were a canvas, he stared at it for the pentimento that lay beneath the illusion of virtue painted on the surface.

Then he could see it- the image that lay beneath what Victor had seemed. There were pits of blackness filled with black serpents, all poised to devour whatever came their way. As Victor reached a hand out to the swordswoman, Dragonbait saw a serpent wind about the flame of Alias's spirit, prepared to crush the life from it before making it a meal. Despite himself, Dragonbait let out a mewling cry and toppled forward.

It was a moment before he could gather his shen sight back into whatever spot it rested when not in use. He saw a flame of blue, tinged with a little green jealousy, before his vision cleared. Thistle stood before him, her hands resting gently on his shoulders. "Are you all right?" she asked slowly, in a manner that presumed because he could not speak her tongue, he could not hear or easily understand it.

The paladin nodded, tapping his chest to indicate he'd only swallowed something the wrong way.

[Hiro Protagonest]

"Champion of Justice" is his real name, but in all the books, he's consistantly called by the nickname Alias gave him.

While there's a bit more to it than just the colour- sometimes shapes, like a mountain, or a flame, play a part, colour is the main definer:

Page 345: Azure Bonds:


Page 62: Masquerades:

Page 276: Masquerades:

Never read Masquerades, it's not part of the trilogy. Guess I'm wrong.

[hamishspence]

Yellow is Akabar Bel Akash's colour possibly because he's naturally a little greedy:

p342-343

The human mage's spirit had began as an orb of dull yellow- weak, but without malice or arrogance; a little greed, but not much.

The halfling had changed little- a wavering spirit, colored with avarice and ambition, heightened by pinpricks of petty, but deeper, nastiness. Her music helped keep these things at bay, but recently not even that had halted a growing smear of jealousy.

He would not ordinarily have searched to such as these, but the human swordswoman had decided to travel with them, and he took his oath to protect her very seriously. Her spirit was often so weak it frightened him. He was afraid her spirit would falter, not only because he was duty bound to her, but because her soul was touched by a midsummer sky blue of grace. He wanted to preserve that.

I suspect Finder's colour is gray partly he is proud, and partly because he is neutral- the croamarkh (elected ruler- Victor Dhostar's father) in Masquerades has the same colour:

p68 Masquerades

Alias shot Dragonbait a questioning look about the croamarkh.
"Gray," the paladin replied.
"Gray? Just gray?" Alias complained in Saurial, hoping for some other insight into Dhostar's character. Gray was neutral, neither evil nor virtuous.
"Bleak and empty, a cold rain drizzling on an abandoned keep. Strong and very, very proud," Dragonbait replied.

"Virtue" is normally depicted as sky blue, but evil comes in a range of colours.

[Whybird]

I like the idea of Detect Evil being subjective. You could even cue it to the paladin's god rather than to the paladin himself -- so if someone worshipped some sort of tree-hugging nature god, a man cutting back the forest in order to make a barricade to protect the village could still trip their Detect.

[Rannath]

I like the idea of Detect Evil being subjective. You could even cue it to the paladin's god rather than to the paladin himself -- so if someone worshipped some sort of tree-hugging nature god, a man cutting back the forest in order to make a barricade to protect the village could still trip their Detect.

Hmm... serve God of healing, look at sword hand, conclude it's evil.