ultimate fortress

[drack]

This is a thought experiment that I thought I might post just to see what funky stuff comes out. So we all know that anyone can do it with the stronghold builders guide, so lets see what can be done with good old fashioned magic and maybe some enslaved workers :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

The Borg Cube is the ultimate fortification - layered with Prismatic Walls, Walls of Iron and other stuff. To my knowledge, the ultimate unbeatable Cube build has never been released, but the penultimate one should be around somewhere.

[drack]

Oh well, figures this has been done already, thanks for the heads up :smallbiggrin:

[Jayh]

I remember the Dis challenge was going around for a while on dicefreaks. ecl 80 or so

[tyckspoon]

The Borg Cube is the ultimate fortification - layered with Prismatic Walls, Walls of Iron and other stuff. To my knowledge, the ultimate unbeatable Cube build has never been released, but the penultimate one should be around somewhere.

That does use Stronghold Builder's Guide and the Landlord feat, to the best of my knowledge. If there's a way to replicate it without those, I'd really like to hear it- Prismatic Wall and Wall of Force are valid for Permanency, so you can cast/build the shell yourself if you're willing to chew through the necessary XP (or cheese the costs, naturally), but is there a way to make the construction mobile without using SBG? And a means of forming a ceiling or floor from your Wall spells without it, given that the spells specify a vertical wall?

[drack]

stone shape, one of the many fly spells, but isn't a prismic wall chewed through easily enough, and a wall of force chewed up similarly. Maybe with a wall of dispel beyond that, but than a higher CL still gets it done, and blowing open a fancy crate is no true challenge...

[OracleofSilence]

Well, that is fairly easy actually. Use a wall of Iron as the base for the walls of force, and build some mechanism (read: enslaved workers according to the OP) that will shear the wall off its foundation and make it a floor, then just use it to anchor the rest. Voila instant borg cube once a control scheme is created...

As to the problem with defenses, Sofawall, the creator of the Cube claimed to have come up with a way around even Mage's Disjunction. As a thought, place them with in a persisted Antimagic field with Initiate of Mystra (IIRC it lets you caste in Antimagic Fields). Since you can caste the defenses, logic states that the defenses must exist. Not every DM would like this but it seems reasonable to me. Dispels and the various things that destroy Prismatic Walls wil have a very hard time getting through it.

[drack]

actually antimagic shield can be taken down by disjunction,
SRD disjunction: "You also have a 1% chance per caster level of destroying an antimagic field. If the antimagic field survives the disjunction, no items within it are disjoined. " Get anyone with a descent CL and they should knock out that easily enough, also according to srd when the antimagic falls to disjunction all the spells in it automatically fail :smallfrown:

[OracleofSilence]

which can then be recast. assuming that 1% chance works out. also it seems that there is porbably some way around that. that CL globes of light that negates direccted magic thing set to go up in battle should work.no one can cast Mages Disjunction 20 times a day

[drack]

well 1%/CL, so even an unoptimized mage could get ~18-20%, an optimized on would likely get 100% easily enough. What are these globes again?

[Flickerdart]

well 1%/CL, so even an unoptimized mage could get ~18-20%, an optimized on would likely get 100% easily enough. What are these globes again?
Really. So you have a quick and easy way of getting +80 CL, do you? Even Consumption Field abuse takes a long time to get it up that high, so it's far from battle-ready.

[Hanuman]

Relevant
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177287&highlight=prison

[mootoall]

Really. So you have a quick and easy way of getting +80 CL, do you? Even Consumption Field abuse takes a long time to get it up that high, so it's far from battle-ready.

Red Wizard of Thay?

[drack]

Really. So you have a quick and easy way of getting +80 CL, do you? Even Consumption Field abuse takes a long time to get it up that high, so it's far from battle-ready.

I've seen a few methods floating around, though I'd kinda rather not go off onto CL discussions...

Edit: red wizard is one

[OracleofSilence]

well 1%/CL, so even an unoptimized mage could get ~18-20%, an optimized on would likely get 100% easily enough. What are these globes again?

Effulgent Epuration Sor/Wis 9 SC

When you cast this spell, you bring
forth one floating, silvery sphere per
caster level, each about the size of your
head. These spheres hover around you
to provide protection from magical
effects. As a standard action, you can
shift the spell’s effect (and thus all the
spheres) to any other creature within
range. You can shift the effect once
per round.
Each of these spheres can absorb and
completely negate any spell or spell-like
ability, regardless of level, that directly
targets the subject. The spheres do not
automatically absorb all spells; the
subject can choose whether or not to let
them absorb any given spell cast upon
it. (This option allows the creature to
benefit from helpful spells.) Area spells
and spells that do not actually have
a target cannot be absorbed. Once a
sphere has absorbed a spell or spell-like
ability, it simply fades away. Only spells
and spell-like abilities of deific power can overcome the protection of efflugent epuration.

tie this so the house counts as the caster, and it is a self resetting trap. as soon as combat starts, activate the trap, and CL of sphere's appear for 1 round per level. It then resets, and boom, total protection.

[Hanuman]

Effulgent Epuration Sor/Wis 9

When you cast this spell, you bring
forth one floating, silvery sphere per
caster level, each about the size of your
head. These spheres hover around you
to provide protection from magical
effects. As a standard action, you can
shift the spell’s effect (and thus all the
spheres) to any other creature within
range. You can shift the effect once
per round.
Each of these spheres can absorb and
completely negate any spell or spell-like
ability, regardless of level, that directly
targets the subject. The spheres do not
automatically absorb all spells; the
subject can choose whether or not to let
them absorb any given spell cast upon
it. (This option allows the creature to
benefit from helpful spells.) Area spells
and spells that do not actually have
a target cannot be absorbed. Once a
sphere has absorbed a spell or spell-like
ability, it simply fades away. Only spells
and spell-like abilities of deific power
can overcome the protection of efflugent epuration.
100 Spellclocks

[Flickerdart]

Red Wizard of Thay?
That caps out at 40.

[drack]

there are ways to add to it, lets leave it at that (really I mean it don't invite unwanted blobs of mechanical manipulations).
Effulgent Epuration: disjunction is an area effect so it doesn't work, and that lets you shift it to creature, not boxes :smallcool:
And if you need more uses for your CL20 just use an energy transformation field...

[OracleofSilence]

Damn, forgot about that. Still it seems a good defense in general, if a little expensive. Perhaps use the resetting traps to set up counter spelling actions?

[Flickerdart]

there are ways to add to it, lets leave it at that (really I mean it don't invite unwanted blobs of mechanical manipulations).
This is pertinent to the discussion of whether or not a Wall of Force is a suitable defensive measure. The onus remains on you to convince us that it is easily defeatable by Disjunction.

[drack]

from your spell discription: "Area spells and spells that do not actually have a target cannot be absorbed. "

This is pertinent to the discussion of whether or not a Wall of Force is a suitable defensive measure. The onus remains on you to convince us that it is easily defeatable by Disjunction.
fine, we'll invite it in. :smallsigh: Do you want me to give a few or does someone else want to?
I'll toss out 2 than :smallsigh:
Consumptive Field+energy transformation field (tons of high CL spells at your command, especially if you snag a few rings of wizardry for extra slots to bur or grab someone with an at will SLA of any level)

This has some CL op for you to play with :smallsigh: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869014/Red_Wizard_Handbook

[Flickerdart]

fine, we'll invite it in. :smallsigh: Do you want me to give a few or does someone else want to?
Please, go right ahead.

Also, fun fact: Disjunction is defeated by total cover - you need a 1ft hole in order to be able to affect anything with it. So first you need to make that hole, meaning that any material that automatically regenerates or repairs itself in any other way (such as traps of Major Creation or something) means you're Disjoining jack all.

[drack]

major creation can be dispelled (has a duration/isn't instantaneous), and hence it is annihilated as the blast passes through, try again :smallsigh:

(Edited in two ways in the post above)

[Flickerdart]

major creation can be dispelled (has a duration/isn't instantaneous), and hence it is annihilated as the blast passes through, try again :smallsigh:

(Edited in two ways in the post above)
True Creation, then, or Fabricate.

Also, I already mentioned Consumptive Field; it's not a technique that's useful in a battle. Gonna have to do better than that. Red Wizard, also, has been mentioned: you cap out at CL40. Nice try.

[drack]

Neither is circle magic, yet by the time it gets there it works no? :smallconfused:

gimme a min for true creation so that I can hopefully think of something better than some lousy minions pounding at it while you cast through the hole they make :smallcool:

[Flickerdart]

Neither is circle magic, yet by the time it gets there it works no? :smallconfused:
Caster level is capped at 40. This is the third time I have had to say this. Next time you forget, I'm going to have to order one of those skywriting planes.

[drack]

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869014/Red_Wizard_Handbook scroll down to the bottom of the third post :smallsigh: (I'm getting tied of repeating myself too, you're not alone here)
True it's an at home work, but it can be worked into a persisted spell matrix, or made into an item, or a ring of spell storing, ect.

[OracleofSilence]

While this particular debate is fascinating...

Essentially, what we need is total concealment. How can we do that? True creation sounds possible. What should it make?

[Flickerdart]

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869014/Red_Wizard_Handbook scroll down to the bottom of the third post :smallsigh: (I'm getting tied of repeating myself too, you're not alone here)
True it's an at home work, but it can be worked into a persisted spell matrix, or made into an item, or a ring of spell storing, ect.
Ok, and you still lose to the Fabricate/True Creation trap, after all that hard work - you have to build your entire character just around failing to defeat the first line of defense. So very far from the "easily enough" claim.




:smallsigh:

[drack]

note that total concealment is still 50% miss chance... (it's kinda harder to get more invisible than invisible, so lets start with superior invisibility complete arcane and lets add a nice pumped nondetection)

Edit: we're keeping the debate? Can't you just quicken a big blasting spell at that?

[Flickerdart]

note that total concealment is still 50% miss chance... (it's kinda harder to get more invisible than invisible, so lets start with superior invisibility)

Edit: we're keeping the debate? Can't you just quicken a big blast at that?
You can't quicken Disjunction without meta abuse that your build can't fit, and you have to destroy the shield before you can Disjoin the wall underneath.

[drack]

no, quicken a blasting spell, not disjunction, though I suppose either would work.... :smallconfused:
For instance fireball in an energy transformation field, launch one stored level 200 spell in there and that's more damage than you should need
use multiquicken if you're level 21 and this is all one round

OK, I'm gonna sleep, I hope we may put this debate behind us...

[Flickerdart]

no, quicken a blasting spell, not disjunction, though I suppose either would work.... :smallconfused:
You: Quickened blasting spell!
Trap: Lol regenerate
You: Disjunction!
Shield that has regenerated: Nope.

You need to Disjoin immediately after you cast, meaning an expensive Rod (because you can't fit the feat). And the guy inside the cube still has his own quickened action to counter yours in whatever way he feels like.

Also yeah, if you're level 21 - but if you need Epic cheese to win, then that's not much of a victory.

[drack]

hm, fine, there are plenty of ways to metamagic level 9, set it as readied action for right befog the guy reforms it. :smallcool:

Epic cheese just makes it faster :smallcool:

That said:

no, quicken a blasting spell, not disjunction, though I suppose either would work.... :smallconfused:
For instance fireball in an energy transformation field, launch one stored level 200 spell in there and that's more damage than you should need
use multiquicken if you're level 21 and this is all one round

OK, I'm gonna sleep, I hope we may put this debate behind us...

[Flickerdart]

hm, fine, there are plenty of ways to metamagic level 9, set it as readied action for right befog the guy reforms it. :smallcool:

Epic cheese just makes it faster :smallcool:
Two traps - one to repair damage when it happens, another to repair damage when someone kicks it, which is an action readied by someone inside for when you cast a spell immediately after casting another spell - a Warforged minion, for instance. Two can play at the readied action game, and the home turf advantage isn't yours.

[OracleofSilence]

For the love of god. This debate is getting way to personal. Lets see what we have here.

1 Outer Shell (self regening Fabricate/True Creation) may or may not work (it seems like it would)

3+ Inner shells antimagic field, wall of iron, wall of force

What other things do we have? Does this sky fortress have offensive capabilities or does it just sit on you? The origional Cube attacked by bumong with Prismatic Walls. Our Fortress can't as easily (they could be Disjoined). What is the solution?

[Flickerdart]

Personal? Not seeing it, sorry.

Attacks, attacks...spreads don't need Line of Effect. Burrowing Power can bypass the Wall of Force - but it's only effective against a single barrier at a time, and we've got a whole cake. There's Line of Shadow, for Shadowcasters, but that has its own problems. Gate is blocked by Dimensional Lock, so we can't use that to get in or out. Hm.

[RedWarrior0]

Dare I say... Truenaming? Actually, it probably wouldn't work.

[OracleofSilence]

Yeah, i don't really think that would work.

However, could we have a set of embedded spellclocks, one of which destroy''s a minute section of the spell and another of which shoots meta'd ray''s through the hole's. They could be sequenced to fire so the ray just gets through the whole, but just before the wall regenerates. And, if the regening wall is also on the other side (a cubbyhole sort of thing), the spellclocks are all that would be disjoined if targeted. Either That or generic LOS stuff (would be a cone, something < 90 degree's). Rays just seems graphically interesting.

[Flickerdart]

As far as I can tell, Truenaming only requires line of sight, not line of effect, to function. So a Truenamer with a Ring of X-Ray Vision would be able to penetrate the fortress, unless we add a layer of lead on the inside, with openable portholes.

[OracleofSilence]

Lead would be easy though, and the self sealing thing above should be our friend here.

[tyckspoon]

What other things do we have? Does this sky fortress have offensive capabilities or does it just sit on you? The origional Cube attacked by bumong with Prismatic Walls. Our Fortress can't as easily (they could be Disjoined). What is the solution?

If we're already using spell traps we can put spell turrets on the outside, but they're fairly likely to get burned off if people are attempting to Disintegrate/Disjunct their way inside the fortress.

[drack]

Hmm, well putting the debate aside I'm thinking that if we're putting up regenerating walls we'll not want them to be the primary walls because that's silly stuff that lets them destroy the outside spells, we'll want them around in all angels, some was to see out at them to monitor them, and some way to keep a readied action to repair them without the DM saying that after a few hours your guard slips. Also they prevent offensive measures such as spell turrets allowing any enemy to just wait for you to slip. Also we'll want bigger defense spells, but reconsidering the cube idea again I've had a player Jack up defenses on a magnificent mansion spell... (perhaps try some extra-dimensional space without a time limit for this as that one wasn't intended for more than a private meeting) would this be easier to work with(mechanically speaking think a huge bag of holding)?

[Gorfang113]

For the offensive capablilities, would inscribing Symbol of spells (death, insanity, pain im thinking) on the walls of iron as many times as you can work? If you did it enough it would take more disjunctions then most mags would have to take them all down.

[drack]

actually disjunction takes them down in an area(40' burst), so it can take them all in one shot, but if you made them into the wall (between layers) they could go off as the walls are bashed open, but there is the issue with their range...

[Kansaschaser]

You could make the walls "self-regenerating" with runes.

Place a rune on the interior of each wall. The rune could "re-cast" anything that gets dispelled or disjoined. As long as the rune is a permanent rune and not one with a number of charges per day, the it could keep up the defenses indefinatly.

[drack]

but than it still doesn't work so well because if they blast than you're regenerating wall regenerates as a wall, not as a wall with a rune and traps...

[Flickerdart]

Why do we need runes? Traps of Fabricate and True Creation are used to fill the gaps, triggered by the damage (clairvoyance trigger).

[Kansaschaser]

Well, there is also the option to place this fortress in a Static Demi-Plane. Then the walls become impossible to move/destroy, even with magic.

You would have to somehow build all the magical walls, traps, and anti-magic fields inside the demi-plane, and then add the "Static" trait later. Otherwise, building this "ultimate fortress" inside an already static environment is almost impossible.

[drack]

triggered by the damage (clairvoyance trigger).
Oh, I was assuming nondetection such that nobody scryes in and blows your heads off with line of sight spells :smalltongue:
If you have static than a planer Sheppard would be useful in the breaking :smallcool: (after all so far we have more inside than out, a Shepard blaster simplifies it allot...)

[Flickerdart]

Oh, I was assuming nondetection such that nobody scryes in and blows your heads off with line of sight spells :smalltongue:
If you have static than a planer Sheppard would be useful in the breaking :smallcool: (after all so far we have more inside than out, a Shepard blaster simplifies it allot...)
Why the hell would you need nondetection on the outside of the fortress?

[drack]

on the walls and interior? :smallconfused:
clairvoyance lets you see from outside, but only up so far as the nondetection begins...

[Flickerdart]

I have no idea what you're on about. The clairvoyance sensors for the traps are placed on the outside of the fortress, in order to detect when it needs repair. Nobody is using it to see into the fortress from the outside because it's defeated by magical darkness, so it's a pathetic offensive solution.

[drack]

so they can scry to see your walls?

[Flickerdart]

so they can scry to see your walls?
No, because the walls aren't a creature.

[drack]

uh, huh, but they can divine them than? :smallcool:

[Flickerdart]

Nor are the walls a goal, event or activity.

[drack]

they give your location :smallcool: never a good thing if we're making it invisible... Being undetectable is as good a invincible if you use it right.

[Flickerdart]

You realize that nothing blocks Discern Location, right? Unless of course we had living walls with Mind Blank cast upon them.

[drack]

and when did they touch your untraceable fort again? (Clarification: Discern Location requires that you touched the object in question in order to cast it :smallcool:) Plus miracle ( the one with 10,000xp cost) is direct divine intervention had they touched in order to discern location. It just happens to be even less reliable than Wish which mind you is incredibly so. Anyways a bit off topic ay? anyone know any good wards? :smallbiggrin: