ECL 21 Succubus optimization

[Telasi]

What the thread title says. Assume this is practical optimization for an Epic game and that all official WotC 3e supplements are in play. How would I go about doing this? What classes would work well? What options are useful here? Is this a remotely reasonable idea?

[Aquillion]

Succubi are hopelessly non-optimal (6 hd + 6 LA means burning 12 levels on stuff that mostly isn't that great), even at ECL 21. Assuming you're aware of that and still want to forge forward, though, the best things a Succubus offers you are its high CHA, at-will Greater Teleport, Ethereal Jaunt, and broadly-applicable Change Shape... these are nice, but tough to optimize around, and the fact that you can't take your party with you limits them somewhat. The high CHA is more usable, but still, not really worth 12 levels.

Obviously, if you can get a way to attack while ethereal, you want it, to use with your free Ethereal Jaunt. But I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

Mind you, it can still be fun -- the at-will Greater Teleport will give you at least something to do no matter what, and there's no denying that being able to go anywhere in the world in one standard action for free has a lot of potential. But there's no way you're going to be stacking up to any optimized character who has 21 class levels in terms of raw power; as long as you're aware of that and realize you'll be flimsy, unable to keep up in damage, etc, it's not necessarily unworkable.

(The negative levels for kissing are fun in theory, but good luck winning a grapple check against any epic-level opponent -- there's probably some humanoid you could change shape into to help a bit with its Ex abilities, but it's probably not going to make up for the stuff you lost on those 12 levels.)

[Kenneth]

Succubus Paladin...?

[Frosty]

You want to load as many "CHA to X" abilities as you can. Consult the X stat to Y posts for more details.

[Aquillion]

You want to load as many "CHA to X" abilities as you can. Consult the X stat to Y posts for more details.I am amused by the fact that ideal optimization would probably go for an undead Succubus, to get Cha to HP. Probably not what the OP wants, though.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What do you expect this character to offer a party of this level? Melee characters should be able to kill an opponent in a single round, and there's no way you'll be able to compare with a spellcaster.

I'd probably try to get Shadow Pounce (Crinti Shadow Marauder 5, SS; Telflammar Shadowlord 4, UE) along with Mind Cripple (Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) 5), take Mindsight in LoM with Greater TWF, and Hide in Plain Sight with Darkstalker is highly recommended. With magic/psionics transparency where caster level = manifester level for spell-like and psi-like abilities you can qualify for Psychic Assassin, then use its sneak attack ability and your greater teleport to qualify for Telflammar Shadowlord. It's expensive on feats, but some of those overlap for a Shadowdancer dip for Hide in Plain Sight. With two flaws you'll be able to do all that and still get TWF, Improved TWF, Greater TWF, and Mindsight. You can see opponents' Int scores, Greater Teleport next to them and full attack for 2 Int damage per hit, and probably disable one in a single round.

Get UMD with Wands of Grave Strike and Golem Strike so you're more likely to be able to deliver sneak attacks. Also be sure to get Speed weapons with Slippers of Battledancing from DMG2, you'll need to spend a move action to dance 10 ft. before teleporting, but you'll be able to add your Cha bonus to melee attack rolls to maybe be able to hit. Future feats should be Combat Reflexes to qualify for Shadowdancer, and Darkstalker so opponents with extraordinary senses won't automatically thwart your hide checks.

[darksolitaire]

I'd try to sneak into accelerated spellcasting class, such as Ur-Priest. Or even Sublime Chord with Sorcerer/Wizard entry and Bardic Music from some other PrC.

[aazru]

Fiend of Possession and/or Corruption fits succubus like a glove.
Succubus ECL12 + FoP6 = ECL18. That leaves 3 lvls if no LA buyoff allowed. If you want to cheese out FoP take a look at Bloodline levels.
Necrotic Focus when possessing a weapon and you can drain.

[Taelas]

I am amused by the fact that ideal optimization would probably go for an undead Succubus, to get Cha to HP. Probably not what the OP wants, though.

Unholy Toughness is not something you can easily get hold of.

There's the dry lich, but that's the only one I am aware of (and adding an additional 5 LA on top of the 6 from the Succubus is not exactly a brilliant plan).

[peacenlove]

I am amused by the fact that ideal optimization would probably go for an undead Succubus, to get Cha to HP. Probably not what the OP wants, though.

Depending on the interpretation and/or the campaign setting this isn't doable. When he dies, an outsiders soul merges with the plane of existence he originated from and his body melts (there is even a random chart in the fiendish codexes for that). This is the core assumption, making most forms of undeath not feasible.
Having said that, Libris mortis has a Lichfiend template, which provides lich benefits, while keeping their outsider type. However you trust your phylactery into a stronger being.


Succubus Paladin... (of slaughter (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/UA:Paladin_of_Slaughter_Class_Features))?

Fixed :smallamused:

Lastly I think you can use LA buyoff to relieve yourself from 1 LA.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fiend of Possession and/or Corruption fits succubus like a glove.

There we go, Fiend of Possession, maybe a few minor bloodlines to get some levels in that or take Legacy Champion. Possess a puddle of water, or a pile of sand, or an enemy's corpse, etc. and animate it as though through animate objects. If whatever you're possessing is destroyed, you just go ethereal and go possess something else. Possess a party member and give him +4 to all stats and give his weapon +6 or higher worth of special abilities. Take Warlock or Psion to use personal-range buffs on whoever you're possessing. Maybe get Leadership for a melee brute cohort and possess/buff him. A Fiend of Possession is extremely difficult to kill, so you shouldn't need to worry too much about defenses or even what items you get.

[aazru]

What do you expect this character to offer a party of this level? Melee characters should be able to kill an opponent in a single round, and there's no way you'll be able to compare with a spellcaster.

I'd probably try to get Shadow Pounce (Crinti Shadow Marauder 5, SS; Telflammar Shadowlord 4, UE) along with Mind Cripple (Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) 5), take Mindsight in LoM with Greater TWF, and Hide in Plain Sight with Darkstalker is highly recommended. With magic/psionics transparency where caster level = manifester level for spell-like and psi-like abilities you can qualify for Psychic Assassin, then use its sneak attack ability and your greater teleport to qualify for Telflammar Shadowlord. It's expensive on feats, but some of those overlap for a Shadowdancer dip for Hide in Plain Sight. With two flaws you'll be able to do all that and still get TWF, Improved TWF, Greater TWF, and Mindsight. You can see opponents' Int scores, Greater Teleport next to them and full attack for 2 Int damage per hit, and probably disable one in a single round.

Get UMD with Wands of Grave Strike and Golem Strike so you're more likely to be able to deliver sneak attacks. Also be sure to get Speed weapons with Slippers of Battledancing from DMG2, you'll need to spend a move action to dance 10 ft. before teleporting, but you'll be able to add your Cha bonus to melee attack rolls to maybe be able to hit. Future feats should be Combat Reflexes to qualify for Shadowdancer, and Darkstalker so opponents with extraordinary senses won't automatically thwart your hide checks.

I may be missing something, but how do you get Telepathy in there?

[Greymane]

I may be missing something, but how do you get Telepathy in there?

A Succubus is female. They're always in your head. :smallamused:

Seriously: Succubi have innate Telapathy.

[aazru]

A Succubus is female. They're always in your head. :smallamused:

Seriously: Succubi have innate Telapathy.

I missed that while reading their SRD entry. And that makes Succubi a load more awesome :D Get Mindsight!

[Telasi]

Thanks for responding at all, guys. I wasn't sure anybody would take me seriously. I am aware of the fact that a +11 ECL after LA buyoff is hopelessly subpar compared to 11 Wizard or even Fighter levels, but I'd like to see just how much I can reasonably get out of it anyhow, even if it proves too hopelessly weak to be playable. I'm curious, and it sounds potentially fun.

Undead was not what I had in mind, and I'm not sure it works, given the nature of Outsiders.

Accelerated casting classes were something I hadn't thought of, though early entry trickery will probably prove necessary to make my casting sufficient level to remain even slightly relevant. Sublime Chord seems potentially promising, especially since it's Cha based casting.

The various Fiend of X classes likewise seem interesting.

As far as contributing to the party, what sort of role should I be looking at covering? Essentially, what can I do that will make this character the least possible amount behind everybody else? I have been informed that the game will be heavy on the RP, followed by combat and puzzles, if that affects this question.

[Gwendol]

Bard? With that CHA your performance checks will rock! (pun intended)

[Prime32]

Bard? With that CHA your performance checks will rock! (pun intended)Try Marshal lv1. And Dragontouched + Draconic Aura feats. Snowflake Wardance?

Succubus 12/ur-priest 1/prestige (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) paladin of tyranny (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofTyrannyClassF eatures) 3/ur-priest +5
Feats: Battle Blessing, Dynamic Priest, Holy Mount, Leadership, Mindsight, Practiced Spellcaster (ur-priest), Travel Devotion
Flaws: ?, ?

Designate your cohort as your special mount for +2 LA (you count as an lv12 paladin for determining its abilities). With Battle Blessing + Dynamic Priest, your ur-priest spells are auto-quickened and based on Cha. For a more casty build, trade the ur-priest levels after the first for contemplative.

Try to get LA buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) approved so you get an extra level and hit lv9 spells.

[phlidwsn]

Telepathy, Tongues, at-will Charm Monster, Suggestion? And the campaign is listed as roleplay heavy? I'd go for party face for character role and work from there. (DCs on Charm and Suggest may need some help though)

[dspeyer]

Well, if you do go the caster route and you're not embarrassed by cheese (and with that LA, you shouldn't be), you could try

Wizard 3 / Mage of the Arcane Order 2 / Bard 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / MotAO 3

It only produces 6th level spells, but there are a lot of them, with access to both the sor/wiz and the bard lists, plus spellpool for the entire range.

Another interesting option is wilder 3 / thrallherd 7 (with practiced manifester). You only get 4th level powers, but one of them is dominate. Pick flexible and augmentable things and there's definite niftiness. Plus minions!

Edit: Yet another option is Divine Crusader. It's cha-based and will get you a 9th-level spell. Whether you can add to its spell list (e.g. with contemplative) is debatable.

[Cieyrin]

Try to get LA buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) approved so you get an extra level and hit lv9 spells.

The problem in this case with LA Buyoff is that it's based off of class levels, not racial HD. For LA +6, y'need 18 class levels, which means you can't buy off till ECL 30. :smallannoyed:

It also should be noted that, while you do have RHD, Outsider hit dice are among the best out there, between all good saves, 8+ skills and full BAB. The d8 HD doesn't hurt that much either, considering most of the build suggestions are kinda on the squishy side and having extra hp never hurt nobody.

[aazru]

On top of Succubi=party face... With FoP roleplaying is limitless! :smallbiggrin: You read memory of victims. And you are a perfect thief/assassin. There is no place you cant get in and out with a little imagination. Possess traps to spring/disarm them. Mindsight and Darkstalked will make you a perfect scout. Get Nymph's Kiss. :smallamused: Interesting piece of background and is generally useful. Look up Necrotic Focus enchantment in Libris Mortis. Possess weapon and drain. Now your opponents on top of one negative level will want to get stabbed again :smallbiggrin: And I wont even bring up uses of animated scenery :smallwink:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Half-Succubus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a), +4 LA no racial HD, and you can even buy off a point of that. If you gradually gained (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) it, you could have taken the levels of LA before your 1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th class levels, and bought them off at every third level to be down 30k XP with no LA starting out, though it is a bit cheesy.

[darksolitaire]

Bit cheesy? Combining variant rule from book of variant rules with variant rule from obscure web article, to gain loads of features? I fail to see how this is cheesy at all.:smallbiggrin:

[Dralnu]

WOTC actually made a succubus paladin once. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a) Also a blackguard variant.

[Cieyrin]

WOTC actually made a succubus paladin once. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a) Also a blackguard variant.

She has such problems if she ever fights a Concordont Killer, since she'll take an extra 8d6 per hit, due to she effectively has all 4 alignments mods. She doesn't fair too well against alignment magic, either, though I suppose that depends on the wording, as she may be treated as the best alignment for it. Word of Balance will still **** her up but good.

[Frosty]

She has such problems if she ever fights a Concordont Killer, since she'll take an extra 8d6 per hit, due to she effectively has all 4 alignments mods. She doesn't fair too well against alignment magic, either, though I suppose that depends on the wording, as she may be treated as the best alignment for it. Word of Balance will still **** her up but good.

Being a Paladin she projects an aura of Good. Being a demon, she projects an aura of Evil and Chaos. The only aura she doesn't project is Law. Can she even hold a Holy Avenger? Also, when is your Gunslinger Guide going to come out Cieryrin? I'm building a Pistolero right now and I'm not sure what to do with my feats after 8th.

[Cieyrin]

Being a Paladin she projects an aura of Good. Being a demon, she projects an aura of Evil and Chaos. The only aura she doesn't project is Law. Can she even hold a Holy Avenger? Also, when is your Gunslinger Guide going to come out Cieryrin? I'm building a Pistolero right now and I'm not sure what to do with my feats after 8th.

Working on it. I'm at the planning phase of thoroughly reading the material and seeing what I can take from the old Playtest Guide which is still relevant. Should be up by Friday at the latest.

[Telasi]

WotC also conveniently seems to have forgotten the +6 LA on her. If I just had the Outsider HD, then I could function as a melee character no problem. It's completely losing six levels that's killing this whole thing.

I looked up Dynamic Priest for the Ur-Priest build suggestion. Turns out it only bases bonus spells on Cha. Save DC is still off Will, which is somewhat less spectacular. It's also from a Dragonlance book, which means it's not allowed for the game because it's not an official WotC 3.5 supplement. Unless you know of another version that fixes these issues, I'm afraid that build isn't going to work very well.

On the Sublime Chord route, how would it be best to go about entering that?

[DeAnno]

It isn't even vaguely RAW, but you could try your hand at a fast talk the DM check to lower the LA to +1, since 6HD + 1 LA = ECL 7 = CR 7. Hilariously, its still pretty shaky even then.

Otherwise, you could have a pretty easy Divine Crusader entry if that's your sort of thing, and get up to 8th level spells with it by ECL 21 (We can't get 9th level spells by ECL 21 since we need 1 more BaB to qualify). Sublime Chord is better, but getting 3rd level spells on this thing to qualify is going to be a total pain in the neck.

From the random Cha ability stacker angle, you can get +to saves from Paladin 2, +to touch AC from Battle Dancer 1 (this also provides full BaB and is probably the best Divine Crusader entry), and +to something random in a 30 foot aura from Marshal 1. With Cha 46 (17(base) + 16(racial) + 6(enhancement) + 5(inherent) + 2(levels)) you have a +18 modifier, which is pretty darn intense.

The Marshal aura is really of special note. You can give out a 60 foot aura of one of the following:
1) Motivate Dexterity gives +18 to initiative, and +18 to all Dex checks (most notably Hide, Move Silently, and Tumble and you can do this quietly by Aura-ing with Telepathy)
2) Determined Caster +18 to all SR checks, for the party of high level casters who never have to worry about SR again
3) Pick a Save, and get +18 to it

With your Paladin and Battle Dancer levels protecting you (plus your SR which scales with HD+12 which isn't too awful), you can build a sort of invulnerable bastion of producing that aura.

Battle Dancer 1/Marshal 1/Paladin (of Slaughter) 2 is a great four levels to start with, not sure what to do with the other five. You could get more marshal levels for extra minor auras to flip around, they're so powerful that it might actually make sense to do. Marshal 5 would give you 3 minor auras to choose from.

EDIT: Maybe get HIPS from somewhere (Continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis from ToM is preferred) and trick out your stealth and become a hide beast, which synergizes well with the scouting from at will teleporting and the staying alive while Aura-telepathying. You could even become the focal point of a high level party that used sneakyness + surprise + extreme initiative to always win rocket tag.

[Jayh]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7518.0 fiend of possession, definitely.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Other than the LA, HD in Outsider isn't actually so bad. Full BAB, all three good saves, and 8+Int mod skill points per level means you have the skill points of a Rogue, the saves of a monk, and the BAB of a Fighter. Combined.

Here's the fun thing, though... you can meet all prerequisites for Ur Priest right out of the box. Which means you look like LA5/Outsider6/UrPriest10 and have 9th level divine spells at your beck and call.

Or, as another idea, Sorcerer/UrPriest/Mystic Theurge. After all, your sorcerer levels cast off of your charisma.

[darksolitaire]

On the Sublime Chord route, how would it be best to go about entering that?

Outsider hit die has 8 skill points, so skill requirements are easily filled. You need to pick 3rd level arcane spells and bardic music.

Easiest way is to either take 7 levels of bard, or take 5 levels of wizard and dip one level of bard, but that removes caster level and therefore isn't optimal. Other ways to gain bardic music are virtuoso (complete adventurer) which loses a caster level, spell singer (races of faerun) that has fluff requirement that your character has elf somewhere in his family line, and Heartfire Fanner (Dragon Magazine 314). You would also need Apprentice Performer feat to pick perform as class skill to enter these classes.

Suel Arcanamach (complete arcana) can fill SC spellcasting requirements at 4th level, and your outsider hit die helps you qualify. Picking level of Bard beforehand makes it easier to get skill requirements.

Note that Succubus' outsider hit die gives grand total of 99 skill points (assuming int 16), so cross class skill ranks shouldn't be a problem.

So, my money would be on Bard 1 / Suel Arcanamach 4 for fastest access. It depends more on what options you have available.

There are also some...shenanigans, such as taking three levels of Ur-Priest and using a feat, southern magician, to cast arcane spells. I wouldn't know anything about those.

[Prime32]

Or, as another idea, Sorcerer/UrPriest/Mystic Theurge. After all, your sorcerer levels cast off of your charisma.Better, Sorcerer 1/Ur-priest 2/Geomancer 10 with the Precocious Apprentice feat. It makes your ur-priest casting Cha-based (and also lets you cast sorcerer spells in armor).

[darksolitaire]

Better, Sorcerer 1/Ur-priest 2/Geomancer 10 with the Precocious Apprentice feat. It makes your ur-priest casting Cha-based.

Yep, that is pretty damn good.:smallsmile: If only Geomancer would advance spell versatility faster then it does...

[Talya]

The problem in this case with LA Buyoff is that it's based off of class levels, not racial HD. For LA +6, y'need 18 class levels, which means you can't buy off till ECL 30. :smallannoyed:


Racial Hit Dice are considered a type of class.

Additional Suggestions:
Sublime Chord (for obvious reasons).
Heartfire Fanner PrC (Dragon Magazine) - adds 5 levels of bardic music if you don't already have bard classes, and should continue sublime chord spellcasting. (Perfect, in this case.)

[Aquillion]

WotC also conveniently seems to have forgotten the +6 LA on her. If I just had the Outsider HD, then I could function as a melee character no problem. It's completely losing six levels that's killing this whole thing.They didn't precisely forget it -- she's an NPC, and NPCs are built using CR, not LA.

The reason for a Succubus' high LA is almost certainly just their at-will Greater Teleport and Ethereal Jaunt (it puts them precisely one level before a wizard gains access to those two spells, which is probably not a coincidence.)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Better, Sorcerer 1/Ur-priest 2/Geomancer 10 with the Precocious Apprentice feat. It makes your ur-priest casting Cha-based (and also lets you cast sorcerer spells in armor).

Friends don't let friends do Geomancer. It only advances one or the other side.

Besides, he only has 10 levels to play with, so even with early entry shenanigans (which are dubious at best), he would only have Geomancer7, meaning you'd miss out on 9th level spells.

As another option, if you want an attack you can use while ethereal, you can always go Sorcer/Force Missile Mage/Argent Savant and focus on magic missile optimization.

[Cieyrin]

From the random Cha ability stacker angle, you can get +to saves from Paladin 2, +to touch AC from Battle Dancer 1 (this also provides full BaB and is probably the best Divine Crusader entry), and +to something random in a 30 foot aura from Marshal 1. With Cha 46 (17(base) + 16(racial) + 6(enhancement) + 5(inherent) + 2(levels)) you have a +18 modifier, which is pretty darn intense.

Don't forget Hexblade gives you Cha vs. all spells if we're gonna go all Cha to everything. It plays nicely with Dark Blessing, it does. :smallwink:


Racial Hit Dice are considered a type of class.

No, no it isn't.


Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.

Emphasis mine. Only class levels count for determining when you can buy off. Not trying to be a prick about this but there's no way a Succubus is buying off LA in the provided window of ECL. Even if you level drained off 5 of her racial hitdice, you couldn't begin to buy off LA for at least another 4 levels at ECL 25. Outsiders don't have the 1 racial hit die retrain clause humanoids and some fey do, either, so we're stuck with 6 RHD and LA +6.

[DeAnno]

Outsiders don't have the 1 racial hit die retrain clause humanoids and some fey do, either, so we're stuck with 6 RHD and LA +6.

To be technically correct, they do as seen in the MMI Tiefling/Aasimar entries. However that clause only works when you have exactly 1 RHD, which the succubus does not.

[Prime32]

To be technically correct, they do as seen in the MMI Tiefling/Aasimar entries. However that clause only works when you have exactly 1 RHD, which the succubus does not.Couldn't you drain your levels to 1 during your "private time"? :smalltongue:

[Cieyrin]

Couldn't you drain your levels to 1 during your "private time"? :smalltongue:

Can you level drain yourself with your own attack? :smallconfused:

I suppose succubi don't have a native immunity to level drain but still...

EDIT: Just checked, Succubus Energy Drain only works on 'mortals,' which probably means non-Outsiders, I'd imagine. Silly WotC using vague terms in their mechanics... :smallannoyed: