Another Question about the Almighty Cleric

[ranger557]

I jumped into a game session with a new group lol. They gave me a cleric to play that session since nobody was the class. They said i could change the character, but I like the cleric actually. However, i never really played a cleric that much before. Here are the rules, 30 pt buy, Core only, but the DM is willing to approve stuff if its not too hardcore, so lets say core lol. Right now I am lvl 2 and I'm thinking i want to modify him to be a dwarf cleric (melee/buffer). What do you guys think? Thanks and happy gaming! :)

[Kenneth]

yes do that. melee buff

just so you know that core only is probably the signle most broken (in terms of power levels) source out there for wizards, druids and clerics.

I had a dwarf cleric that did the same thing as you, by 3rd level i was meleeing better than the fighter was.


by the time I hit 7th level it was done for in terms of who was the party's meat shield. I would use up maybe 4 spells out of the 20 I had for the day to be b significantly better than our fighter at melee and still had 4/5 of my spells left to do gooeycleric stuffs with

[Gwendol]

Go for it! Can't really go wrong.

For melee/buffer the recommendation is to pick up Str/War domains, but other combinations may be better for what you have in mind (serving Clanggedin Silverbeard perhaps).

Feats: Power attack (because you will have plenty of strength), Combat casting, divine metamagic, perhaps some summoning-related feats.

2H-weapon, full plate armor, cast shield of faith, protection against evil (the AC bonuses stack), and divine favor (at low levels) and you're good to go. For higher levels you go for the righteous might/divine power combo.

I like Elation (BoED): +2 STR/DEX and +5' movement to all allies within a hefty radius. Better than Bless once you get 2nd level spells.

[ranger557]

Nice! I'm glad I'm on the right track. I''ll definitely get the power attack, but not sure about the two handed weapon yet (i have low dex). The Str and War domain would fit this concept. However, I was thinking of getting the Planning domain to get the Extend Spell feat for free, I just have to ask the DM. Also I was thinking the Travel Domain is pretty awesome because it basically gives you freedom of movement. Here is what I have so for. Tell me what you guys think? Thanks and have a good one :)

Lvl 2 Dwarf Cleric

Str: 10
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 18
Cha: 10

Feats
1. Improved Initiative
3. Power Attack (if I don't go Planning Domain) Extra Turning
6. Persist Spell (if i get Planning Domain)
9. Divine Metamagic

Weapon: Morningstar Armor: Half-plate with Heavy wooden shield

[gallagher]

Nice! I'm glad I'm on the right track. I''ll definitely get the power attack, but not sure about the two handed weapon yet (i have low dex). The Str and War domain would fit this concept. However, I was thinking of getting the Planning domain to get the Extend Spell feat for free, I just have to ask the DM. Also I was thinking the Travel Domain is pretty awesome because it basically gives you freedom of movement. Here is what I have so for. Tell me what you guys think? Thanks and have a good one :)

Lvl 2 Dwarf Cleric

Str: 10
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 18
Cha: 10

Feats
1. Improved Initiative
3. Power Attack (if I don't go Planning Domain) Extra Turning
6. Persist Spell (if i get Planning Domain)
9. Divine Metamagic

Weapon: Morningstar Armor: Half-plate with Heavy wooden shield

since you are looking at persisting, you are going to need more charisma. i suggest going human instead of dwarf, taking some points out of either dex or intelligence, or looking for a cloak of cha as fast as you can. you need as many TUs as possible. and try not to use up all of your TUs on persisting, because they will still be very useful against undead.

i personally would go human, look towards persisting, and start building toward radiant servant

[erikun]

2H-weapon, full plate armor, cast shield of faith, protection against evil (the AC bonuses stack), and divine favor (at low levels) and you're good to go. For higher levels you go for the righteous might/divine power combo.
I generally prefer only 1-2 buffs active for low level characters. It gives the cleric more endurance, and you can give up a spell for some healing when necessary.

Also, buffs like Aid are very helpful for the whole party.


Str: 10
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 18
Cha: 10

Feats
1. Improved Initiative
3. Power Attack (if I don't go Planning Domain) Extra Turning
6. Persist Spell (if i get Planning Domain)
9. Divine Metamagic

Weapon: Morningstar Armor: Half-plate with Heavy wooden shield
Unless you need to maximize your Wisdom, 16 WIS and putting the spare points into STR should get you more benefit. I see no reason why you would choose half plate armor over full plate, given the choice.

Persistent Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell) has Extend Spell as a prerequisiste, and it is questionable if your DM will allow Divine Metamagic (especially if they are suspicious of non-core feats). For that matter, you need 6 turn attempts to DMM Persist a single spell, which you don't have with only 10 CHA. Just taking Extend Spell might be useful, though: Double duration for only one spell slot higher is actually quite nice.

You need 13 STR to take Power Attack, another reason not to put all your points into Wisdom.

Check to make sure your DM is okay with a Cleric worshipping a "cause" that just happens to hand out the Planning and Travel domains. Most DMs I've seen either want you focusing on a deity or focusing on a very concrete concept.

[ranger557]

since you are looking at persisting, you are going to need more charisma. i suggest going human instead of dwarf, taking some points out of either dex or intelligence, or looking for a cloak of cha as fast as you can. you need as many TUs as possible. and try not to use up all of your TUs on persisting, because they will still be very useful against undead.

i personally would go human, look towards persisting, and start building toward radiant servant

Well, I was thinking of going persist spell because I heard it was good for using buffs on you the whole day, right? Also I was thinking going human would be good for the extra feat as well, so if I would go human why would i go radiant servant of pelor? I know it makes your healing abilities better but doesnt that tangent off the buffer/melee path? Also does that class get more turning or what? I'm not sure, thats why I'm asking because I want to make a fun and badass cleric :smallbiggrin:. Thanks

[Morbis Meh]

With radiant servant you get martial weapon prof for free and a free domain (purification is a solid choice). You have to be neutral good and select the sun domain as one of your domains, so if you choose planning as the other you should be fine. Another great prestige class to take is Contemplative because it allows you to pick up even more domains, my recommendation is the spell domain because it has some great spells other great domains are travel and trickery from what I here. If your dm will allow it I recommend picking up Nightsticks from libris mortis...beware it may cause a book to be thrown at you!

[Gavinfoxx]

I wouldn't go DMM-Persist for 'not too crazy'. I would instead try the still quite awesome, less build focus needed, DMM Quicken.

[BillyBobJoe]

If your group is suspicious of unbalanced stuff outside of core, don't prove them right by using DMM and Persist shenanigans. DMM Persist is pretty broken, and you will basically invalidate anyone who trys to do melee, because you do melee better, and still have full spellcasting.

[ranger557]

I generally prefer only 1-2 buffs active for low level characters. It gives the cleric more endurance, and you can give up a spell for some healing when necessary.

Also, buffs like Aid are very helpful for the whole party.


Unless you need to maximize your Wisdom, 16 WIS and putting the spare points into STR should get you more benefit. I see no reason why you would choose half plate armor over full plate, given the choice.

Persistent Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell) has Extend Spell as a prerequisiste, and it is questionable if your DM will allow Divine Metamagic (especially if they are suspicious of non-core feats). For that matter, you need 6 turn attempts to DMM Persist a single spell, which you don't have with only 10 CHA. Just taking Extend Spell might be useful, though: Double duration for only one spell slot higher is actually quite nice.

You need 13 STR to take Power Attack, another reason not to put all your points into Wisdom.

Check to make sure your DM is okay with a Cleric worshipping a "cause" that just happens to hand out the Planning and Travel domains. Most DMs I've seen either want you focusing on a deity or focusing on a very concrete concept.

Ok true, I guess i should go human and bring that Wis down to 16, but wouldnt a 18 be the best or no? Also the reason why i have half plate armor is because right now i only have 1k gp to work with, next up would be full plate :smalltongue: I know at least the basics lmao.

True i need my Cha higher, so i should just go human so I can boost my str and cha right? Also I'm not sure about the concept with the domains, if my DM cares about that lol.


With radiant servant you get martial weapon prof for free and a free domain (purification is a solid choice). You have to be neutral good and select the sun domain as one of your domains, so if you choose planning as the other you should be fine. Another great prestige class to take is Contemplative because it allows you to pick up even more domains, my recommendation is the spell domain because it has some great spells other great domains are travel and trickery from what I here. If your dm will allow it I recommend picking up Nightsticks from libris mortis...beware it may cause a book to be thrown at you!

Yeah dude it looks pretty sweet, I have read it before a long time ago, but I'm not sure if its the best for the Buffer/Melee idea. I mean sell it to me more because I'm still kind of new at playing a cleric, not the game but the cleric a little lol.


I wouldn't go DMM-Persist for 'not too crazy'. I would instead try the still quite awesome, less build focus needed, DMM Quicken.

True I should avoid crazy power, i do know the cleric can be pretty powerful on its own. However, a DMM Quicken would be better, how so?


If your group is suspicious of unbalanced stuff outside of core, don't prove them right by using DMM and Persist shenanigans. DMM Persist is pretty broken, and you will basically invalidate anyone who trys to do melee, because you do melee better, and still have full spellcasting.

True again, I don't want to ruin the game for anyone, I just want to have fun with my character and I know I'm pretty set for strong options because of the fact I'm tier 1. I just want to know how to play this class efficiently.

Also our group right now is one sorcerer, one wizard, one fighter, one monk, and one rogue. So what do you guys think i should focus on and still have fun?

[gallagher]

purification domain si pretty good, but if you want to be a pro, i believe that the glory domain gives you holy sword, which turns your regular weapon into a +5 holy weapon or some such. you persist that, and you can sink your wealth into better options than your weapon.

and how you get your DM to allow you DMM Persist is to voluntarily not break it. persist divine power, and not righteous might.

and for other benefits of being a RSoP is that it allows your party to be effective for much longer. you get free metamagic for your domain healing spells. while out of combat healing is easy to come by, in-combat healing is much harder, and you will be much more competent

[Gavinfoxx]

True I should avoid crazy power, i do know the cleric can be pretty powerful on its own. However, a DMM Quicken would be better, how so?


1.) It doesn't require as many feats
2.) It doesn't require you to go all out with things like Undeath and Planning domains
3.) It doesn't require you to get Reliquary Holy Symbol or Stacking Nightsticks
4.) In general, it doesn't DRAMATICALLY change the way spells work, and as such is less likely to get banhammered
5.) You specifically do NOT want to shine 'too much'. REMEMBER this. So don't go for the absolutely most powerful option available to you -- go with something that is less 'all in', and allows you to do things that are a bit more interesting with things like domains and such.

[erikun]

Ok true, I guess i should go human and bring that Wis down to 16, but wouldnt a 18 be the best or no? Also the reason why i have half plate armor is because right now i only have 1k gp to work with, next up would be full plate :smalltongue: I know at least the basics lmao.

True i need my Cha higher, so i should just go human so I can boost my str and cha right? Also I'm not sure about the concept with the domains, if my DM cares about that lol.
18 WIS would be best if you are focusing on casting spells, but the one spell slot you lose from having the lesser Wisdom will likely be worth the +2 to hit/damage from having 14 STR. Also note that you'll be interested in boosting Wisdom at level ups (and with items) so that you'll end up well over 20+ by midgame.

Also, remember that you need more than 10 STR to even pick up Power Attack.

Is that all the stats you have for 30 point buy? Just one 18 stat, one 14 stat, and everything else at 10? That seems like of... low, really.

You need to spend 6 turn attempts to persist one spell. 10 CHA gives you 3 attempts, meaning you would need to pick up Extra Turning to use the DMM Persist ability once. That's four feats for a single spell.


Yeah dude it looks pretty sweet, I have read it before a long time ago, but I'm not sure if its the best for the Buffer/Melee idea. I mean sell it to me more because I'm still kind of new at playing a cleric, not the game but the cleric a little lol.
If you can get Divine Power persisted, then yes, it is. The main loss with a prestige class like Contemplative is the BAB loss, which is ignored by having Divine Power up.

If for some reason you can't persist spells, then Radiant Servant of Pelor is still a good class. You are trading ~10 HP (Bear Endurance will be granting you 30 HP at that point) in exchange for a free domain, better weapons, better healing when you do use it, and better turning if you ever try to turn undead.


Also our group right now is one sorcerer, one wizard, one fighter, one monk, and one rogue. So what do you guys think i should focus on and still have fun?
I like the idea of group buffs or individual buffs for specific roles. Something like Bless or Prayer is nice for everyone. Your Fighter will probably like Protection from Evil occasionally, especially against a spellcaster. Casting Silence on an object for the heavy armor people to hold while sneaking around is handy, as is Shield Other or Bear Endurance on someone who normally doesn't have much HP (such as the rogue).

Stuff like Resist Energy, Create Food and Water, and Freedom of Movement is handy in the right situations.

Also, don't worry about spell selection that much. The worst that can happen is you choose the wrong spell and exchange it for some healing. You can always swap out for another spell the next day, and it doesn't hurt to have a few spell slots for "experimental" spells.

[ranger557]

18 WIS would be best if you are focusing on casting spells, but the one spell slot you lose from having the lesser Wisdom will likely be worth the +2 to hit/damage from having 14 STR. Also note that you'll be interested in boosting Wisdom at level ups (and with items) so that you'll end up well over 20+ by midgame.

Also, remember that you need more than 10 STR to even pick up Power Attack.

Is that all the stats you have for 30 point buy? Just one 18 stat, one 14 stat, and everything else at 10? That seems like of... low, really.

You need to spend 6 turn attempts to persist one spell. 10 CHA gives you 3 attempts, meaning you would need to pick up Extra Turning to use the DMM Persist ability once. That's four feats for a single spell.


If you can get Divine Power persisted, then yes, it is. The main loss with a prestige class like Contemplative is the BAB loss, which is ignored by having Divine Power up.

If for some reason you can't persist spells, then Radiant Servant of Pelor is still a good class. You are trading ~10 HP (Bear Endurance will be granting you 30 HP at that point) in exchange for a free domain, better weapons, better healing when you do use it, and better turning if you ever try to turn undead.


I like the idea of group buffs or individual buffs for specific roles. Something like Bless or Prayer is nice for everyone. Your Fighter will probably like Protection from Evil occasionally, especially against a spellcaster. Casting Silence on an object for the heavy armor people to hold while sneaking around is handy, as is Shield Other or Bear Endurance on someone who normally doesn't have much HP (such as the rogue).

Stuff like Resist Energy, Create Food and Water, and Freedom of Movement is handy in the right situations.

Also, don't worry about spell selection that much. The worst that can happen is you choose the wrong spell and exchange it for some healing. You can always swap out for another spell the next day, and it doesn't hurt to have a few spell slots for "experimental" spells.

Ok true I got what you are saying that if i go melee/buffer that I should give myself more leverage at low levels with the Str and because I need it for power attack and the Wis i don't need that high because I won't be doing that many offensive spells right?

Yeah thats 30 point buy it is really Low, strange huh? :/

So I was trying to figure out the way I can get better at melee/buffer concept and thanks for the heads up about RSoP and Contemplative. However are you saying if I go DMM Persist I should go Contemplative or If I don't go DMM Persist I should go RSoP? I'm still very new at all the power of the mighty cleric?

Here is what I thought I could build as a Cleric, tell me and suggest please of what you guys think? Thanks for the help and have a good one.

Human Cleric X/PrCX?

Str: 14
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 16
Cha: 14

Domains: Pride and Planning

Feats
1. Extra Turning, Power Attack
3. Touch of Healing
6. Persist Spell
9. DMM

[erikun]

So I was trying to figure out the way I can get better at melee/buffer concept and thanks for the heads up about RSoP and Contemplative. However are you saying if I go DMM Persist I should go Contemplative or If I don't go DMM Persist I should go RSoP? I'm still very new at all the power of the mighty cleric?
If your DM does not allow DMM Persist, then just take Cleric/RSoP. If your DM does allow it, then Cleric/RSoP/Contemplative would be good.

Please note that I'm not familiar with the Contemplative prestige class, but I think that it is a 1/2 BAB class. In that case, Cleric 6/RSoP 4/Contemplative 10 would only have +12 BAB, and having Divine Power active all the time (to change this to +20) would become far more important. If you can't do that, because DMM is banned, then you'll want to re-think Contemplative.

I do hope someone will show up and correct me if I'm wrong about the class, though.


Here is what I thought I could build as a Cleric, tell me and suggest please of what you guys think? Thanks for the help and have a good one.

Human Cleric X/PrCX?

Str: 14
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 16
Cha: 14

Domains: Pride and Planning

Feats
1. Extra Turning, Power Attack
3. Touch of Healing
6. Persist Spell
9. DMM

Ah yes, this looks much better. However, RSoP requires access to the Sun domain, so you will need to Sun/Planning if you want to access that prestige class. (Planning for Extend Spell, so you don't become delayed with Persist/DMM.) You get a free domain upon entering RSoP, so you could take Pride at that point.

I'm not sure if there are any feat requirements for the Contemplative PrC, but you need to be aware of that.

Power Attack won't be doing you much good at first level, so you are probably better with Touch of Healing at first unless there is some kind of requirement (minimum skill ranks?) for the feat.

[ranger557]

If your DM does not allow DMM Persist, then just take Cleric/RSoP. If your DM does allow it, then Cleric/RSoP/Contemplative would be good.

Please note that I'm not familiar with the Contemplative prestige class, but I think that it is a 1/2 BAB class. In that case, Cleric 6/RSoP 4/Contemplative 10 would only have +12 BAB, and having Divine Power active all the time (to change this to +20) would become far more important. If you can't do that, because DMM is banned, then you'll want to re-think Contemplative.

I do hope someone will show up and correct me if I'm wrong about the class, though.


Ah yes, this looks much better. However, RSoP requires access to the Sun domain, so you will need to Sun/Planning if you want to access that prestige class. (Planning for Extend Spell, so you don't become delayed with Persist/DMM.) You get a free domain upon entering RSoP, so you could take Pride at that point.

I'm not sure if there are any feat requirements for the Contemplative PrC, but you need to be aware of that.

Power Attack won't be doing you much good at first level, so you are probably better with Touch of Healing at first unless there is some kind of requirement (minimum skill ranks?) for the feat.

I see, hmm didnt know that thanks. I can figure that Cleric/RSoP could be a good combo, but you both need Sun and Healing domains for its full benefits. Sun to enter the PrC and Healing to get those metamagic's free. Also I know Contemplative gives you more domains, which in the end is more powerful, but is that all im going for?

Also I can't get Touch of Healing at 1st level because it requires you to have at least 2nd level spells, So thats why I took Power Attack early since Im going to need it later on. Also I just figured out that I cant take the Planning domain because its not under Pelor and to enter RSoP, you NEED to serve Pelor lol. So I guess I have to go back to the drawing board. What do you guys think? Thanks :)

[erikun]

I do remember that the book recommends re-flavoring the Radiant Servant prestige class if Pelor isn't an available deity, or if the player wants to make use of the class but isn't worshipping Pelor. That's rather up to the DM, though.

Just right off hand, looking through the Complete Divine:

Church Inquisitor - LG or LN, 4 skill ranks, can cast Zone of Truth, member of a LG church
3/4 BAB, 10/10 spellcasting, Inquisition Domain 1st level

Contemplative - Kno: Religion 13 ranks, 1st level divine spells
1/2 BAB, 10/10 spellcasting, two bonus domains (1st and 6th)

Divine Oracle - Kno: Religion 8 ranks, Skill Focus, 2 divination spells
1/2 BAB, 10/10 spellcasting, Oracle Domain 1st level

Radiant Servant - NG, Kno: Religion 9 ranks, Extra Turning, 1st level divine spells, Sun domain
3/4 BAB, 10/10 spellcasting, bonus domain 5th level

Seeker of the Misty Isle - elf/halfelf, Survival 8 ranks, 2nd level divine spells
3/4 BAB, 8/10 spellcasting, Travel domain 1st level, Magic domain 7th level

Warpriest - +5 BAB, Diplomancy 8 ranks, Combat Casting, Turn/Rebuke
full BAB, 5/10 spellcasting, Glory domain 1st level

I didn't put down all the prerequisites, so check the book yourself if you are interested. I do note that the Radiant Servant doesn't need the healing domain, though. Rather, any spell that appears on the healing domain (such as Heal and Regenerate) gets the benefits.

Out of these, Seeker of the Misty Isle might be worth checking out if you are willing to be an elf, perhaps with Zen Archery and a longbow. Planning, Travel, Magic, and whatever else you take at 1st level will make a very nice set. (Note that elves are always proficient with the longbow.) The only problem is that archery is hard to do well, and a lot of the Cleric buffs, like Righteous Might, don't help much. The Seeker PrC loses caster levels at 5th and 10th, so just sticking with it to get the Magic domain should be fine.

One level of Warpriest might be worth checking out, just for getting Holy Sword (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holySword.htm) as a 5th level domain spell. The Inquisition domain isn't very impressive, but the Church Inquisitor itself gets basically immunity to Enchantments and bonuses against Illusions.

Just a basic Cleric/Radiant Servant with the Sun, Planning, and Pride (or whatever else you want) will work just fine as long as you don't have to worship Pelor. Cleric X/Church Inquisitor 10/Warpriest 1 getting Planning, Pride, Inquisition, and Glory would be very nice as well. And if you don't mind the archer route, the above Cleric X/Seeker of the Misty Isle 7 (perhaps with Warpriest 1) will give you Planning, Pride, Travel, Magic, and Glory all together.

Contemplative is really easy to jump into at higher levels, so a single dip for an extra domain there is good for most of the builds.

Just a question: What does Pride give us that is so nice?