On Darkness, Fog etc.

[Serpentine]

Could someone please explain to me why these spells are useful and/or how they're meant to be used? It seems to me that, except maybe as a means to escape, they hinder the caster as much as the target. The one time I've tried to use one as a DM, the party hid in the darkness and stuck their heads out to attack their enemies while staying concealed.
What is it about these spells that I'm just not getting?

[Keld Denar]

Most of the low level fogs ARE just for concealment or escape. Running away, or taking cover from volleys of ranged attacks long enough to regroup.

Once you get 3rd level and higher spells, though, thats when the pain comes. Stinking Cloud and Cloud of Bewilderment both affect foes even after they leave the fog. That makes the fog a 20' burst with a built in awkward terrain factor. A well placed Solid Fog means that a single foe requires at least 2 rounds to get out, possibly with another foe or two taking 1 round. So, you're one standard action just cost your foes 4ish actions, allowing your team to pounce on the undivided foes and dealing with them in a totally not-fair-but-we're-gonna-thump-you-anyway kinda situation. Once the stucked foe emerges from the Solid Fog, they might just stumble into your waiting arms, or they might emerge on the other side of the fog thus buying you ANOTHER round or two while they reposition.

Then you get the higher level fogs. Cloudkill, while not very solid, is still 1d2 Con damage per round WITH a successful save (1d4 without). Not a valid tactic against everyone, but against foes vulnerible to it, a decent choice. If you can pin you foe down and dance around them to keep the cloud over them, it can quickly spell doom. Freezing Fog is my personal favorite fog from the 6th level. Its Solid Fog (win) + Grease (win) + 1/2 strength Energy Sub(Cold) Acid Fog. This spell IS the anti-construct. I've seen Greater Stone Golems decimated by this spell. Sure, it takes a while, but its not like HE's going anywhere between the Ref save and the balance checks. Not as slick against flying foes (pun!), but still all the comforts of Solid Fog with a little extra damage tacked on for grins and giggles.

And, thats about it. Incendiary Cloud is...eh. Its not bad, but it lacks the Grease effect of Freezing Fog, which is awesome for keeping foes stuck in it longer. Might as well just use Solid Fog and fireball the poor blighter a couple times (or not, because fire burns off fogs, use acid or sonic or lightning). I've got better things to do with those high level slots.

[Elboxo]

Often for chaos and buffing
E.g:
Enemy wizard/sorcerer ( lvl 3 for a low level party, typically )
Casts fog cloud between him and the PC's, then moves sideways.
PC's can't see through fog, can try charging through it or shooting arrows through it at where they last saw the enemy, but won't get him, as he has moved.
Next round: Wizard moves back a bit and casts Summon Monster 2, but instead summons 1d3 small spiders. Spiders have tremor sense so don't rely on sight to hunt, as long as target is on the ground. Spiders can also Web a medium sized character. Making them make a strength check to get out, and at least wasting a round of action. Other spider(s) do the same to other party members or attack .
PCs focus on spiders, which they can't see when they move more than 5ft away ( Spiders might move behind PCs to lure them back, deeper into fog )
Wizard summons more monsters and moves again, this time around or even into the fog. PCs are now being flanked and webbed en masse ( if the summoner rolled the 1d3s well ) Spiders get flanking bonus to hit, poison damage ( which is a low save, but can still be affecting PCs, after trying to make a few saves )
PCs become outnumbered and hp starts dropping a little, but quickly remove any more spiders, then run through fog to other side.
Wizard has now outskirted them or is in the fog running away. Optional Burning hands if he wants to damage them more.

Makes Combat much nastier when enemies come out of nowhere and you don't know why, or how many there are.

Other uses for fog cloud are casting offensively to block enemy casters/ranger Line of sight, ranged siege weapons line of sight. Or buffing your teammates by giving them concealment on route until they reach enemies. Works well for larger teammates who can see 5ft around them and are large as is so cover more squares. ( or enlarge person ). Also gives you time to buff teammates with actual spells, or change the terrain between you and an enemy ( grease inside the fog cloud ). Anything really.

[Gwendol]

Avoiding charge, deny benefit of reach... etc.

[Darrin]

Could someone please explain to me why these spells are useful and/or how they're meant to be used?


Obscuring mist/fog cloud pairs up nicely with faerie fire or a similar effect, such as Torch Bug Paste (25 GP, Complete Scoundrel p. 120) or Stormfire Ring (4000 GP, MIC p. 206). "Paint" your targets, then drop some obscuring mist. You can only "see" things within 5', but if you stand next to your enemies, the 20% concealment is negated for your attacks but not for theirs. You can also use wind wall to carve a path through the mist/fog, or toss a vial of bottled air (Dungeonscape p. 35) into your opponent's square to negate his concealment. Or you could use Sculpt Spell to make sure you and your allies are on the edge of the mist/fog, so you get the concealment but can still see your enemies.

There are some quirks to this, however... it doesn't work with darkness, since a 2nd level [darkness] spell trumps a 1st level [light] spell. And while glitterdust also has what appears to be a similar glowing effect, it is completely different mechanically, and does not negate or reduce concealment.

But yes, I think the intended use was to cover an escape, or to shut down ranged attacks once all combatants are engaged in melee.

[Greenish]

The drow were described somewhere as using Blind-Fight feat (that their enemies probably don't have) and their racial Darkness for an extra edge in a fight.

[Big Fau]

One of the best Fog spells is actually Pyrotechnics, as it can be used to blind your opponents with no save allowed.

I've seen Obscuring Mist given some very tactical applications for setting up ambushes or hiding traps. And obviously Solid Fog is absurdly powerful.


And the humble Darkness spell becomes Sphere of Improved Invisibility for 8,000gp thanks to the Ring of Darkhidden in the MiC. 90% of the MM has Darkvision, BTW.

[Greenish]

And the humble Darkness spell becomes Sphere of Improved Invisibility for 8,000gp thanks to the Ring of Darkhidden in the MiC.Darkness already hides you from Darkvision as well as it hides you from normal sight.

Of course, Darkness isn't really darkness, but shadowy illumination, and doesn't really hide you from sight.

[Big Fau]

Darkness already hides you from Darkvision as well as it hides you from normal sight.

Of course, Darkness isn't really darkness, but shadowy illumination, and doesn't really hide you from sight.

I left out the part about Baatezu, didn't I...

[Madeiner]

Obscuring mist/fog cloud pairs up nicely with faerie fire or a similar effect


Actually, we always played it in game like that. However, after playing Temple of elemental evil pc game and noticing it didnt work, i checked raw and noticed this:

Faerie fire:
Outlined creatures do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by darkness (though a 2nd-level or higher magical darkness effect functions normally), blur, displacement, invisibility, or similar effects

Obscuring mist:

The vapor obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target).


So it is not "concealment provided by darkness" nor blur displacement, etc.

I believe faerie fire does not allow to see in an obscuring mist

[Darrin]

I believe faerie fire does not allow to see in an obscuring mist

That largely depends on how broadly you define "similar effects", which is something that may lean more heavily toward the "personal opinion" side of things than something more explicitly defined by the rules.

[tyckspoon]

The most obvious way to use visibility-denying spells is to combo them with other effects that let you ignore them. Things like the Ebon Eyes spell to see through magical darkness, the Least Warlock invocation that does the same with shorter visual range.. I know there's at least one prestige class and one magic item that lets you ignore fogs, although I can't remember the names to look them up properly. And then there's the broad array of non-sight-based senses that could be used; a creature with tremorsense/blindsense/blindsight/mindsight/touchsight doesn't care about darkness and fogs at all, while more mundane things like a good Listen check, the Scent ability, or the Blind-Fight feat reduce their impact while hopefully leaving the opposition fully hampered.

[Person_Man]

In general, I've found that an average PC dies after 1-5 hits. Now obviously that varies widely depending on a lot of different factors. But my personal experience is that 20% concealment generally negates 1ish attack per combat, which tends to buy you 1 more round to act. It doesn't sound like much, but if combat only lasts 1-5 rounds, then it can be a life saver. The trick is that you shouldn't really waste an action to activate such concealment in combat, unless you need it to Hide and escape. But if you can get it from a soulmeld or invocation or some similar "always on" effect, it's a pretty solid investment.

[Reaver225]

One of the best Fog spells is actually Pyrotechnics, as it can be used to blind your opponents with no save allowed.
How does that work? Don't they get a reflex save?

[Elric VIII]

I accidentally TPK'd my group when I had an enemy Cleric cast Fog Cloud in a small cave.

The entire fight took place in the cave, so there was no escaping the cloud. The enemy Cleric (and a few Warriors) were of a race that had 1 manufactured weapon attack and 1 bite attack (with Multiattack). The PCs, at level 6, had only 2 people with iteratives. So, the enemies either had more attacks (more chances to hit) or had a second attack at a higher bonus (compared to the full BAB guys).

Basically, the fogs are great when you can alter the hit probability in your favor via more attacks or a way to avoid concealment penalties.

[Big Fau]

How does that work? Don't they get a reflex save?

Not if you use the Smoke version.


Smoke Cloud
A writhing stream of smoke billows out from the source, forming a choking cloud. The cloud spreads 20 feet in all directions and lasts for 1 round per caster level. All sight, even darkvision, is ineffective in or through the cloud. All within the cloud take -4 penalties to Strength and Dexterity (Fortitude negates). These effects last for 1d4+1 rounds after the cloud dissipates or after the creature leaves the area of the cloud. Spell resistance does not apply.

And under a specific section of the laws of English grammar, they are blinded for 1d4+1 rounds even after leaving the smoke.

[ericgrau]

No, then that would mean sight through the cloud is ineffective even 1d4+1 rounds after you leave it or it dissipates, which is quite a bit less impressive.