Fyron's Vanishing Son (SoD Spoilers)

[Sunken Valley]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html) and Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html) Roy mentions Fyron's (eugene's mentor) Son. This all seems fine until you read Start of Darkness. To spoil it as little as possible I will say that Fyron's son is not mentioned there. At all. Even though we get a detailed flashback of the event and actually see Fyron. In fact some of the passages directly contradict the existence of the son. So what happened to him? Let speculation begin.

[Warmage]

A few possibilities:

A) Eugene lied to Roy about Xykon killing Fyron's son.

B) Fyron's son was killed unceremoniously and posed no threat to Xykon and thus, wasn't shown.

C) Fyron's son was one of the spliced souls and was killed by Xykon. The soul did not recognize his killer due to the undeadification (I make up words YAY).

Possible SoD spoiler:
D) Fyron killed his own son after becoming undead.

[FujinAkari]

This has been brought up numerous times, and the answer is we just don't know yet.

Leading bets are "Eugene lied to Roy" or "Fyron's son went after Xykon and got killed in the process"

[NerfTW]

I'm going to also chime in as I have in every one of these threads, that SOD was released on 4/11/2007, which means it had been written months before he made the second in comic reference on 4/2/2007.

So none of the usual "He changed his mind" suggestions. He clearly left Fyron's son out of SOD and THEN mentioned it in comic a second time, so at the very least, it's still in the plot that Roy was told this information, which is for some reason being hidden from us.


My best guess is that it's a bit more of a major plot development, and is going to be in the main comic.

[Warmage]

I'm going to also chime in as I have in every one of these threads, that SOD was released on 4/11/2007, which means it had been written months before he made the second in comic reference on 4/2/2007.

So none of the usual "He changed his mind" suggestions. He clearly left Fyron's son out of SOD and THEN mentioned it in comic a second time, so at the very least, it's still in the plot that Roy was told this information, which is for some reason being hidden from us.


My best guess is that it's a bit more of a major plot development, and is going to be in the main comic.

The Giant has never introduced or mentioned someone in a prequel book and had them return to play an important part in the main comic! That's just crazy talk. [/sarcasm]

The list is actually relatively small of the characters someone has mentioned that haven't wound up in the comic (or at least, one of the books). The chance of us seeing Fyron's son eventually are actually quite high. He could have been raised after Xykon killed him, or he might be a part of his undead army (maybe even he's the MitD), or he could have already met him and just not realized it. Fyron's son could be Tarquin, for all we know!

[Dr.Epic]

A few possibilities:

A) Eugene lied to Roy about Xykon killing Fyron's son.

Why? Wouldn't the threat of an undead lich that killed his master be enough? Why sprinkle on the addition of a dead son? Plus, during the flashback told by Eugene, we don't see this. Assuming the flashback is told from his perspective, we should see this.


B) Fyron's son was killed unceremoniously and posed no threat to Xykon and thus, wasn't shown.

Then why mention it? Wouldn't Rich know this would be noticed and bug the fans crazy? Also, Rich could have shown Eugene finding Fyron's son's corpse. He wouldn't have to show the murder, just the effects. Have Eugene looking at the crime scene and some narration.

C) Fyron's son was one of the spliced souls and was killed by Xykon. The soul did not recognize his killer due to the undeadification (I make up words YAY).[/QUOTE]

Spliced souls? What are you talking about?


Possible SoD spoiler:
D) Fyron killed his own son after becoming undead.

Again, going back to point B, why didn't we see it?

[Warmage]

Why? Wouldn't the threat of an undead lich that killed his master be enough? Why sprinkle on the addition of a dead son? Plus, during the flashback told by Eugene, we don't see this. Assuming the flashback is told from his perspective, we should see this.

Eugene could have used the "dead son" to further maniplate Roy into taking up the Blood Oath, or whatever other plan he had. I have no idea why Eugene would lie to Roy about this, but it is completely keeping with Eugene's character.


Then why mention it? Wouldn't Rich know this would be noticed and bug the fans crazy? Also, Rich could have shown Eugene finding Fyron's son's corpse. He wouldn't have to show the murder, just the effects. Have Eugene looking at the crime scene and some narration.

Perhaps he did it to make the fans crazy on purpose. But most likely he will show it in detail some time later.


Spliced souls? What are you talking about?

I'm talking about the souls spliced to V by the IFCC. One of which is specifically an Archmage, just like Fyron was.


Again, going back to point B, why didn't we see it?

Again, it may not yet have been shown. As to why we didn't see it during the flashback, Eugene may not have actually witnessed the death and merely found out about it later.

However, now that I'm thinking about it, Tarquin would be the right age and be dramatically appropriate to be Fyron's son. Then Elan's granddad was Roy's dad's teacher, which would make Elan happy (and Roy not so much). Just because Fyron's son died doesn't mean he wasn't raised afterwards.

[Dr.Epic]

Eugene could have used the "dead son" to further maniplate Roy into taking up the Blood Oath, or whatever other plan he had. I have no idea why Eugene would lie to Roy about this, but it is completely keeping with Eugene's character.

Then why wouldn't Eugene lie even more? If the lack of a dead son made the difference between Roy pursuing it, why not throw in some more casualties? If he had a son, he probably had a wife too. And why not throw some more offspring into the mix too?


I'm talking about the souls spliced to V by the IFCC. One of which is specifically an Archmage, just like Fyron was.

And how do we know that's Fyron's son? There's no evidence supporting this. Not to mention why would Fyron's son would be evil then. From what we've seen, Fyron didn't appear to be a bad guy so why would his son? Also, we have no evidence his son even pursued a life in arcane magic. And even if it was Fyron's son, which there is no evidence to support, we still didn't see Xykon kill him. He could have been killed from some other guy, some disease, or even old age.


However, now that I'm thinking about it, Tarquin would be the right age and be dramatically appropriate to be Fyron's son. Then Elan's granddad was Roy's dad's teacher, which would make Elan happy (and Roy not so much). Just because Fyron's son died doesn't mean he wasn't raised afterwards.

What evidence is there to support this other than he'd be the right age because that doesn't scream blood tie?

[factotum]

This thread again? Must be a Tuesday... :smallsigh:

[NerfTW]

The Giant has never introduced or mentioned someone in a prequel book and had them return to play an important part in the main comic! That's just crazy talk. [/sarcasm]

The list is actually relatively small of the characters someone has mentioned that haven't wound up in the comic (or at least, one of the books). The chance of us seeing Fyron's son eventually are actually quite high. He could have been raised after Xykon killed him, or he might be a part of his undead army (maybe even he's the MitD), or he could have already met him and just not realized it. Fyron's son could be Tarquin, for all we know!

Um, I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Fyron's son does not show up in SOD. My point was this might mean that his actual death ties into a plot point somehow, and couldn't be shown at the time. I was cutting off the usual "It's a plot hole" and "He changed his mind and wrote him out of the story" types, given that he mentions the son AFTER having written SOD, where we don't see him.

Second, MitD cannot be Fyron's son. There's, well, SO much evidence against that.


Lived in the jungle his whole life
Hunters recognized his species as being out of it's natural habitat
They wouldn't refer to a fellow human that way.
He's a hideous creature of some sort, also, wouldn't be used to scare humans in a side show.

[Warmage]

Then why wouldn't Eugene lie even more? If the lack of a dead son made the difference between Roy pursuing it, why not throw in some more casualties? If he had a son, he probably had a wife too. And why not throw some more offspring into the mix too?

Eugene manipulates people, particularly his own son, quite a bit. I'm sure if he did lie to Roy, it will be revealed exactly why. Seeming how we have no real evidence that Fyron even had a son, Eugene lying seems the most probable explanation.


[snip] There's no evidence supporting this. [snip] What evidence is there to support this... [snip]

No evidence whatsoever. It is a possibilty and a generous helping of wild mass guessing. Eventually, we will find out what happened to him, but until then, we speculate.


Second, MitD cannot be Fyron's son. There's, well, SO much evidence against that.


Lived in the jungle his whole life
Hunters recognized his species as being out of it's natural habitat
They wouldn't refer to a fellow human that way.
He's a hideous creature of some sort, also, wouldn't be used to scare humans in a side show.


If Fyron's son was raised as a pretty nasty high-CR mindless (or near-mindless) undead, then he could fit the last 3 points. Because of the timeline, Xykon was still alive when Fyron's on was killed and the MitD was found some time after that. Again, a possibility with even more wild mass guessing. I believe it is much more likely that Fyron's son was made into a regular old zombie or wight or something.

Hell, he could just be in his soul gem with the others. Or he could have been reincarnated as a goblin named Jirix. Or he could have been permanently polymorphed into a housecat named Mr. Scruffy. Or he could be stuck on the semi-elemental plane of ranch dressing. There are many possibilities and the only thing we know of him is that Roy thinks Xykon killed him.

[FujinAkari]

No evidence whatsoever. It is a possibilty and a generous helping of wild mass guessing. Eventually, we will find out what happened to him, but until then, we speculate.

Speculation SHOULD be based in something though. Otherwise its just "Hey! The captive ambassador could be Fyron's son who was cursed with a belt of gender-swapping!"

EVERY character can work, we need reasons to think that one should.

[Mutant Sheep]

Speculation SHOULD be based in something though. Otherwise its just "Hey! The captive ambassador could be Fyron's son who was cursed with a belt of gender-swapping!"

EVERY character can work, we need reasons to think that one should.

Hey... the captain is the gender-swapped child of an archmage? I have new respect for her. You know, since she worked for a place called "The Free City of DOOM", and then got mad when another evil country took over hers. Which obviously wouldn't be in evil diplomat 101.:smalltongue: (Yes, not like the other countries have nicer names. Just sayin'.)

[factotum]

You know, since she worked for a place called "The Free City of DOOM", and then got mad when another evil country took over hers.

Er, just having "Doom" in the name doesn't mean it's an evil country. Heck, Lord Tyrinar actually turned out to be quite a good guy, which is why Tarquin etc. had to get rid of him...

[B. Dandelion]

I think the matter of Fyron's son wasn't brought up in SOD either because:

A- Eugene deliberately withheld information and/or lied. He has shown a willingness to lie and withhold information to Roy both in the strip proper and SOD, so there's plenty of precedent. What possible motive he could have for lying is beyond me at this point in time, but doubtless there could be reason.

B- Eugene just didn't think it was important, although it is. Maybe Fyron's son wasn't a spellcaster, who wants to waste valuable backstory time on a chump like that? Whatever the reason, Eugene omitted mention of the son which allows surprise revelations later on down the road.

C- It genuinely isn't important, 434 is just a continuity nod of an obscure detail that didn't warrant elaboration in the prequel.

Looking at it that way, I start to wonder if the guy really is alive. That seems like the most intuitively obvious reason there would be such a level of apparent obfuscation, if obfuscation is in fact the intended effect. Note that Xykon specifically acknowledges the murder of Fyron but merely doesn't contest Roy's accusation of killing the son.

Epileptic tree time! Fyron's son is alive, and he too wants revenge on Xykon. Eugene desperately needs his descendants to kill him in order to fulfill the Blood Oath, and he doesn't want Roy to know about the son because he might be inclined to let his grudge take precedence -- seeing as Fyron Jr. would be out to avenge his father's death where all Fyron is to Roy was his father's old mentor that Roy never even met. Consider that Roy was able to bypass the Blood Oath and get into the Celestial Realms, but Eugene can't. If somebody else kills Xykon it's nothing to Roy, but disaster for Eugene. What's keeping Roy on the case is the idea that somebody has to stop him and as far as he knows he's the only person willing to step up to the plate. Eugene can't afford to have that equation change.

It would be an act of absolutely breathtaking douchebaggery for Eugene to deliberately withhold information about someone who should be considered a potential ally from Roy, but I frankly wouldn't put it past him.

[King of Nowhere]

I'm surprised no one mentioned a possibility that was mentioned in every other thread on the topic before this one: that Roy simply got the story wrong, and remembered a son that never existed.

Anyway, I think it's much more likely that it will be just a minor plot point in the future.

[Morquard]

B- Eugene just didn't think it was important, although it is. Maybe Fyron's son wasn't a spellcaster, who wants to waste valuable backstory time on a chump like that? Whatever the reason, Eugene omitted mention of the son which allows surprise revelations later on down the road.
Actually, Eugene MUST have told Roy about it, otherwise Roy wouldn't be able to tell Xykon that he killed Fyron's son.
Unless Roy found out about that on his own, when doing research into that incident.


Looking at it that way, I start to wonder if the guy really is alive. That seems like the most intuitively obvious reason there would be such a level of apparent obfuscation, if obfuscation is in fact the intended effect. Note that Xykon specifically acknowledges the murder of Fyron but merely doesn't contest Roy's accusation of killing the son.
Seriously... Xykon? He'd forget his head, if it wasn't attached to his spine by dark eldritch forces.
He probably didn't know it was Fyron's son, just assumed it was some low level student or servant that he was able to kill with a single magic missile or so, why remember someone like that? He probably forgot about it already when he left the room.



Epileptic tree time! Fyron's son is alive, and he too wants revenge on Xykon. Eugene desperately needs his descendants to kill him in order to fulfill the Blood Oath, and he doesn't want Roy to know about the son because he might be inclined to let his grudge take precedence -- seeing as Fyron Jr. would be out to avenge his father's death where all Fyron is to Roy was his father's old mentor that Roy never even met. Consider that Roy was able to bypass the Blood Oath and get into the Celestial Realms, but Eugene can't. If somebody else kills Xykon it's nothing to Roy, but disaster for Eugene. What's keeping Roy on the case is the idea that somebody has to stop him and as far as he knows he's the only person willing to step up to the plate. Eugene can't afford to have that equation change.

It would be an act of absolutely breathtaking douchebaggery for Eugene to deliberately withhold information about someone who should be considered a potential ally from Roy, but I frankly wouldn't put it past him.
Neither would I, but your logic doesn't quite work.
a) Roy wouldn't stop just because someone else also tries to kill Xykon "Oh great, now I'm off the hook. Good luck". That's just not him. However, it's possible that Eugene thinks he might, so yeah.
b) However Roy got into Celestia because he died trying to fullfill the oath. If he steps down and lets someone else do it, it's the same as giving up, and he's going to spend the rest of eternity watching clouds with his dad. Fun times.

[hamishspence]

b) However Roy got into Celestia because he died trying to fullfill the oath. If he steps down and lets someone else do it, it's the same as giving up, and he's going to spend the rest of eternity watching clouds with his dad. Fun times.

Arguably, the wording of the Blood Oath does not specify that it affects anyone's afterlife but Eugene's.

So, Roy could give up, and he might still get into Celestia.

[B. Dandelion]

Actually, Eugene MUST have told Roy about it, otherwise Roy wouldn't be able to tell Xykon that he killed Fyron's son.
Unless Roy found out about that on his own, when doing research into that incident.

Whoa, I'm saying the fact that Fyron's son wasn't mentioned at all in SOD means there's potentially some factor to this story that we don't know the full scoop on, not that Eugene told Roy zip about Fyron's son. He almost had to have heard about that from Eugene.


Seriously... Xykon? He'd forget his head, if it wasn't attached to his spine by dark eldritch forces.

He probably didn't know it was Fyron's son, just assumed it was some low level student or servant that he was able to kill with a single magic missile or so, why remember someone like that? He probably forgot about it already when he left the room.

It's certainly not proof of anything. At best it's suggestive. But that's all I was going for.


a) Roy wouldn't stop just because someone else also tries to kill Xykon "Oh great, now I'm off the hook. Good luck". That's just not him.

I agree.


However, it's possible that Eugene thinks he might, so yeah.

Exactly. The driving question I'm getting at is could there be a conceivable reason for Eugene to omit the truth or lie about Fyron's son, so what Eugene thinks Roy will do is more relevant than what Roy will actually do.



b) However Roy got into Celestia because he died trying to fullfill the oath. If he steps down and lets someone else do it, it's the same as giving up, and he's going to spend the rest of eternity watching clouds with his dad. Fun times.

I didn't say he would just step down and not do anything to try and stop Xykon. I imagine they would have joined forces, but you can see how Fyron's son might want to be the one to actually finish Xykon off because he has a greater personal motive to hate the guy than Roy does. (This might be somewhat debatable now, given that Xykon's killed Roy once, but he did get better. Fyron... didn't.) Roy apparently trying to stop or helping to stop Xykon is good enough to get him through the Gates, but the Blood Oath ... I'm not 100% on the Blood Oath, because we haven't encountered a situation where the objective of the Oath is fulfilled, but by someone NOT of the bloodline, but potentially that's a very bad ending for Eugene.