PDA

View Full Version : How to deal with undesired changes in game type?



HunterOfJello
2011-08-23, 01:02 PM
People seem to avoid the threads I've made that have too much text in them so I'll put the full information in a spoiler and the TLDR out in the open.
I've been DMing a gestalt tabletop Eberron game of 3.5e for over a year now and the players have gotten their characters almost to level 12. The focus on the game has been mainly on dungeon crawls, short adventures, monster hunting, two long modules, and some roleplaying in between.

I enjoy DMing for dungeon crawls, roleplaying, and for fights in all sorts of different settings. However, the two players now want to take some land that they were awarded by the King of Breland and turn it into a base for creating an army to stage a long series of battles in order to conquer Droam and/or Breland. They're both highly enthusiastic about the idea too. More enthusiastic about it than any of the last few adventures we've run.

There's just one small problem with this development. I have absolutely no desire to DM a large scale battle game, don't enjoy wargames anywhere near as much as they do, and don't think I can properly DM a game like this. The two of them enjoy playing week long games of Risk and months long games of Rome Total War, but I get bored playing Starcraft matches that last longer than 20 minutes.

I had a problem in the past of railroading the game and being too restrictive because I'm still working on becoming a better DM, but I think I've made a lot of progress on fixing that. I do my best to go along with whatever the PCs want to do while maintaining verisimilitude in the game world.

A few examples in my defense and by way of explanation:

The PCs decide to kill everyone in the town instead of just the werewolves hiding in it? Alright, all of the towns people fight tooth and mail for their survival, they hide their children in cellars and all 30 of them attack the PCs with pitchforks and old weapons from the Last War. A number of people are seen running out of town and return several rounds later with a large pack of werewolves.

The PCs are invited to meet the King of Breland and are considering killing him upon meeting him. They are summoned to The Citadel and enter into the courtyard that is filled with men who are well armed in full plate or chainmail practicing with well crafted weapons and keeping watch over the inside and outside of the area. Knowledge Check? "You don't know many details about the men who work as soldiers inside the Citadel." Sense Motive and Martial Lore? "Many of the men seem to be on an slightly lesser level than your own prowess with a blade. Some of the older men have the appearance of grizzled war veterans. Some of the older men seem like they would provide a fair fight in a duel. One of the older men in full plate walks towards a practice dummy and executes a Bonecrusher maneuver."

I wasn't trying to railroad in the second example, merely provide an accurate description of the strength of the melee npcs in the courtyard based on the description of their strength from the Five Nations book slightly modified by adding in Tome of Battle by changing one of the paladins to a crusader. The PCs changed their mind about the combat strength of the npcs in the area, but received appropriate information based on the results of their skill checks in my opinion.

Anyway, I'm not too sure about what to do right now. I had been planning on introducing 1 to 2 of the Elder Evils from the book of the same name and have already introduced information on Zargon the Returner. The players have very little desire to go destroy a powerful aberration and pillage the ancient city he was trapped beneath now though. They seem to want to turn the game into a wargame using Heroes of Battle rules, but I really don't want to start doing that stuff.

I suggested starting off a new game and running the Kingmaker adventure path modified for 3.5e if they were interested in playing a sandbox game based around building a kingdom, conquering others, and becoming rulers, but they hate the idea of switching to low level characters after achieving level 11 gestalt. Kingmaker I could deal with, but this stuff just looks like it's going to be a ton of work to start playing a game type that I have no interest in playing.

I mentioned to one player that I really have no interest in playing a game type like that and was accused of being too restrictive as a DM. I'd like to avoid being the DM that just shuts players down or railroads them, but I think that will happen anyway if I maintain verisimilitude since both Breland and Droam still have powerful armies at the point in time the campaign is set in. Choosing to not let the players play the game type they want by shutting them down seems like a **** move, but incidentally shutting them down by having the armies of the world act appropriately to the new threat they may present seems like a **** move too if that's the game type that they're interested in.

What do you guys suggest that I do?



TL;DR: I DM a level 11 gestalt game. The two players have a strong desire to turn the game into a large scale wargame instead of adventures and dungeon crawls. I have absolutely no desire to DM a d&d wargame. What should I do?

Gnaeus
2011-08-23, 01:09 PM
I would tell them that if they want to play a wargame, one of them will need to run it.

They are experienced tactical gamers, you, by your admission and preference, are not. If you put them in even battles, they will steamroll you, because they are strategy gamers. You can always make bigger numbers in an attempt to balance, but this will eventually result in you steamrolling them. If you don't like running wargames, you shouldn't be forced to run wargames. Remind them that the DM is supposed to have fun in the game also, and that is not fun for you. My DM likes to have math puzzles in his games. None of the players enjoy them. After hints (the first couple of times), and then direct complaints (the next few times), we finally refused to participate in the math puzzles at all. Same issue.

One compromise might be to run the battles on a completely abstract level, using opposed knowledge history or tactics rolls.

NineThePuma
2011-08-23, 01:11 PM
Hit them over the head with the DMG and tell them straight out that you're not comfortable with that.

If you're more comfortable with "small scale" stuff, run it in the vein presented in Complete Warrior.

Flickerdart
2011-08-23, 01:20 PM
PCs aren't generals. It would be completely reasonable for them to outsource the actual strategic deployment of troops to someone who does that for a living and stick to what they do best, which is take out high-priority targets. It's not easy to fight the Archmage of Someplace if his cadre of wizards and golems is backing him up, but if they're busy holding the line against the army, the PCs can slip through and go at it mano a mano. Maybe the enemy controls a strategically placed dam, which they can detonate as a last ditch (pun!) effort to stop an invading army, and the PCs need to wrest control of it while their own army marches by. Maybe they need to extract a turncoat who is willing to give them the keys to the city gates. Maybe they need to poison the enemy army's water supply - with a poison only found on Mt. HorribleDeathKill, because the men are elite warriors resistant to conventional poisons. They're still going on adventures, but now it's to further their own goals.

JaronK
2011-08-23, 01:21 PM
Unfortunately, D&D at higher levels does increase in scale, and this sounds like what your players want. Is there some compromise you can do? Consider allowing them to have their armies, but make the main fights be individual battles where they have to go in as a small unit.

Or, alternatively, if they really get creative with their armies... let them win. Let them win big. And then have that eldritch abomination that you've been hinting at make a real attack, something that their armies can't handle but they can... so all will be for naught unless they can save the day. Perhaps even have enemy armies make deals with this abomination in return for power.

JaronK

Crow
2011-08-23, 05:33 PM
Unfortunately, D&D at higher levels does increase in scale, and this sounds like what your players want. Is there some compromise you can do? Consider allowing them to have their armies, but make the main fights be individual battles where they have to go in as a small unit.

Or, alternatively, if they really get creative with their armies... let them win. Let them win big. And then have that eldritch abomination that you've been hinting at make a real attack, something that their armies can't handle but they can... so all will be for naught unless they can save the day. Perhaps even have enemy armies make deals with this abomination in return for power.

JaronK

I like this idea. Yeah, you conquered Breland, but in ignoring the signs that were manifesting around you, a bigger problem has emerged!

As far as running the battles, you could always have them issue orders to their subordinates before and sometimes during for the battle, and do the rest Dynasty Warriors style. "Lu Bu is annihilating our spearmen! Someone has to stop him!"

NineThePuma
2011-08-23, 06:23 PM
Bonus points if Lu Bu is riding a Polymorphed Red Dragon.

some guy
2011-08-23, 06:36 PM
Maybe let your players have their wargame after each D&D session? After each session, each of the two players get assigned to a side in a conflict and play it out in a wargame. After the wargame, you note how each side progresses and how it will change your world. After that, your players again play D&D.
This might be a lot of work though, and it might be hard for your players to be objective in their wargame.

But really, you shouldn't play a game that you don't wan't play. If they want to play a wargame, let them. The most you can do is incorporate the results in your d&d game, but even that is a lot of work on your part.

BillyBobJoe
2011-08-23, 06:41 PM
Bonus points if Lu Bu is riding a Polymorphed Red Dragon.

The greatest thing about being high level; You can, pursue Lu Bu. :smalltongue: *twitch* *twitch* so much damage *sobs*

Gavinfoxx
2011-08-24, 05:32 AM
Tsk. Are they at least using the Rome Total Realism mod??