Goomba-Stomping?

[kpenguin]

So, I was flipping through Dungeonscape the other day and came across the dungeoncrasher ACF for Fighter. Seemed good, lotsa damage for bumping people into walls and such. But sometimes... you don't have walls or the enemy is too far from the wall for you to bullrush.

But... what wall is always present? The one we have our feet to! The floor!

Now, you could just pick up a way to fly and bull-rush into the floor that way, but I was thinking of something that appeals more to my aesthetics. What about a character built around jumping on top of opponents and bull-rushing them into the floor while going down? Crushing them with the dungeoncrasher power... A GOOMBA STOMPER.

So, my friends, assuming a GM willing to permit this, how would one go about building the goomba stomper?

[Kaje]

Max your jump checks. there are a number of jumping maneuvers in ToB. And I believe there's a feat which turns every fall into a bull rush.

[HappyBlanket]

Battle Jump. Automatically initiate a charge by falling 5 feet over your target. You can initiate a Bullrush on a charge, so.... <3 I had a little build around this idea awhile back, but it's technically not RAW. But technical RAW is the only thing stopping you, which should not be an issue.

[Fouredged Sword]

Does that mean that you can charge as a swift action with sudden leap? Jump 10ft over thier heads and fall.

[Chess435]

This sounds like it's going to be awesome! :smallbiggrin: I'll be lurking...

[darksolitaire]

Yeah, Charger had battle jump as one of it's feats, it was from FR book Unapproachable East. Also, after 6 fighter levels, you should take 5 levels of wizard and Arcane Thesis: fireball.

[Fouredged Sword]

Unarmed swordsage 2 / Fighter 6 / sorcerer x / jade phoenix mage.

See if your DM will let carmadine monk effect swordsage Ac bonuses.

get the flameing burst reserve feat.

do.do.do.do.dadada! Do the Mario!

[TwylyghT]

I think as a goomba stomper, you would be better served with Druid levels and Produce Flame over Fireball.

Then you could use you animal companion to pick up a dinosaur mount and find a way to teach it swallow whole...

[ericgrau]

Play a heavy-set character for extra falling damage, and because weight doesn't affect your jump modifier by RAW. Since jump can be pumped through the roof you can get enough falling damage to one shot your foes, even near difficult terrain. Then everything else won't matter and you can dump all your skill points into profession(plumber). Your DM might get mad and start giving foes adamantine shells and rule that hitting them only makes them retreat into their shells for a few rounds... what?

EDIT: for the sake of avoiding DMG impressions on your forehead, no I'm not serious.

[Metahuman1]

If you do the wizard thing, also learn Vampiric Touch and Shocking Grasp if you wanna attack unarmed, and Enlarge person and Haste for Buffs, Alter self can help boost jump checks.

Next, Pick up 1 lvl in Warblade or Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian and one level in Cleric. Get Travel Devotion and another worth while Devotion feat on the latter, and Adaptive Style if you go Warblade for feats.

Now, either charge, jump, Dungeoncrash into floor with either Full attack or an attack Manuver and Vampiric Touch if the last is applicable. Then Use Travel Devotion to move back so you can repeat it next round. You'll be a damage dealing monster!

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think as a goomba stomper, you would be better served with Druid levels and Produce Flame over Fireball.

Then you could use you animal companion to pick up a dinosaur mount and find a way to teach it swallow whole...
I don't think the DM would allow it to count as 2nd level for the purpose of Fiery Burst. You'll have to go at least three levels of druid. On the plus side, you can fill your first level spell slots with something, and that spontaneous SNA allows you to summon a dinosaur to ride.

Play a heavy-set character for extra falling damage, and because weight doesn't affect your jump modifier by RAW.

It also doesn't affect the damage you deal, unless I'm missing something.

[Lateral]

Battle Jump. Automatically initiate a charge by falling 5 feet over your target. You can initiate a Bullrush on a charge, so.... <3 I had a little build around this idea awhile back, but it's technically not RAW. But technical RAW is the only thing stopping you, which should not be an issue.

What isn't RAW about it?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Due to the nature of bullrushes, if you have flight and attack someone who is below you, that would work for dungeoncrashing.

Battle Jump also works, as others have already mentioned.

Here's a guide for the latter. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood:_A_Tale_of_38;_Guide_to_th e_3.5_Dragoon)

For the former, just use some means of flight and Knockback (Races of Stone).

EDIT: And don't get me started on the RAW of Battle Jump.:smallsigh:

[qoalabear]

It also doesn't affect the damage you deal, unless I'm missing something.

I believe ericgrau is also fishing for damage from falling-objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects) upon the target.

Which invokes the heavy-set, obese warforged (metal cap?) that deals Nd6 damage until DMGs start getting thrown. Let me see if I can find that hilarious level 1 build from the NED...

[TwylyghT]

What isn't RAW about it?

I think the sticking point would be on the validity of being able to bull rush someone downward into the floor. I think it would work, but in "3d" space you would have to initiate the bull rush from a space that is higher than the opponents, making the legal direction of the rush the floor.

[Hiro Protagonest]

EDIT: And don't get me started on the RAW of Battle Jump.:smallsigh:

Yep. It never actually says what action you use for it. Is it just falling? Is it a move action? Is it a full-round action? And do you use falling object damage?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Yep. It never actually says what action you use for it. Is it just falling? Is it a move action? Is it a full-round action? And do you use falling object damage?

My stance has always been that it takes whatever action initiated the falling, resulting in the charge being a sort of "triggered action" in the same sense that a contingency'd spell eats up whatever action triggered the contingency.

[Lateral]

My stance has always been that it takes whatever action initiated the falling, resulting in the charge being a sort of "triggered action" in the same sense that a contingency'd spell eats up whatever action triggered the contingency.

I always figured that it just let you use a jump to move for a charge; that is, you jump and attack instead of running and attacking, but it still eats up your standard action.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I always figured that it just let you use a jump to move for a charge; that is, you jump and attack instead of running and attacking, but it still eats up your standard action.

You have to consider the cases where a character already used their standard and move actions, but can do a swift action jump, though.

[Revenance]

Concerning Bull Rushes (and probably also unrelated to the current topic since I'm not familiar with Battle Jump)...

Knockback (RoS) gives you a free bull rush attempt if you score a hit while using Power Attack. So instead of opting for either hitting them or bullrushing them during a charge, you can do both (as long as you power attack)!

If 3.0 content is available, Halberd of Vaulting (A&EG (Well, I think this is 3.0. Not sure.)) seems like it would synergize well with Battle Jump, as well as giving you a +30 bonus to Jump.

Rampaging Bull Rush (RoS) might also help, as long as you have the rage ability, but it's not necessary. I just felt like pointing it out since it has "Bull Rush" in its name :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Seems like somebody already pointed out Knockback. A part of me has been Swordsage'd. Probably my kidneys.

[HappyBlanket]

What isn't RAW about it?

I'll begin this by saying that I love the concept, and that I've wanted to try it myself for some time now. To further ensure that you don't take this out on me, I'm going to say that this is the result of an uncontested answer on the Simple Q&A RAW thread to a question of mine regarding the legality of Dungeoncrashing Battle Jump. Which is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11357919#post11357919) (question two posts down) and over... here:D&D objects are items which are separable from the landscape, and which are not easily subdivided. So a tree (which can be uprooted, with difficulty) is an object; a branch of that tree is not. A bed isn't an object, but a mattress, a bed frame, and pillows are all objects. A table is an object, but one plank of that table is not (unless you get some tools and disassemble the table). Anything measured by volume in D&D doesn't qualify by itself as an object. Air, water, and flour aren't objects, but a flask of water and a sack of flour are both objects. Basically if you can pick something up, toss it up in the air and nothing falls off/out, it's an object.

So you could bull rush someone from above if they were standing on top of a tavern table (an object) for that "on higher ground" bonus and fighting from there.

Solid simply means "rigid, not flexible". Bull rushing someone into a mattress isn't going to cause extra damage, but bull rushing them into a bookcase or wardrobe will.

Structures measured in multiples of 5' sections are treated as manufactured parts of the landscape. That's why Dungeon Crasher specifies both walls and solid objects, because walls aren't objects when they're parts of buildings.

All of this had to be puzzled out from the distinctions made in different parts of the rules, because they didn't bother to define the term "object". For instance, the fact that trees are living objects is found here. One of the indications that volumetric substances aren't objects themselves, but containers of such are, is found here. Stronghold Builder's Guide contains plenty of indications that buildings aren't objects.

I hope that helps clear things up for you.

None of my words, again. Basically, it's because by RAW, the floor is not a solid object.

This, I think, is a perfectly good example of why RAW is not as important as it seems to be.

[TwylyghT]

But the floor is still a wall, in that its a surface or structure that make up the confines of a contained space. Its only a matter of perspective that makes it a floor.

[HappyBlanket]

But the floor is still a wall, in that its a surface or structure that make up the confines of a contained space. Its only a matter of perspective that makes it a floor.

I find it peculiar how you would protest that the floor could be seen as a wall, yet don't find any quarrel with the assertion that the floor is not a solid object.

[TwylyghT]

While I do find the concept that the floor, or a plank of wood, or many other such examples are not "objects" themselves quite absurd, I just point out that the floor is still a wall in the spacial sense, its just whatever wall you happen to be standing on.

And in a fantasy setting, your orientation within a room is much less reliant on gravity than we are used too. lol.

[MikolasTheAngry]

I built a character for this! I'm not sure if it was RAW valid, but it combined a lot of already-mentioned tricks, Dragonborn for wings (extra jump check), a lance, and some charge modifiers.

I think he could do something around 250-300 damage at level 10 on a single PA'd charge attack into the floor, BEFORE the dungeon crash. And that was only 9 levels of fighter, since Goliath has +1 LA.

Never got to play that game sadly...

There's a build on the Wizard Forums called "red hood" or something to that effect, imitating the Dragoon class from Final Fantasy (which is where I based my character from). It's basically the same but with a spear instead of just jumping on folks.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I built a character for this! I'm not sure if it was RAW valid, but it combined a lot of already-mentioned tricks, Dragonborn for wings (extra jump check), a lance, and some charge modifiers.

I think he could do something around 250-300 damage at level 10 on a single PA'd charge attack into the floor, BEFORE the dungeon crash. And that was only 9 levels of fighter, since Goliath has +1 LA.

Never got to play that game sadly...

There's a build on the Wizard Forums called "red hood" or something to that effect, imitating the Dragoon class from Final Fantasy (which is where I based my character from). It's basically the same but with a spear instead of just jumping on folks.

I'm pretty sure Little Red Raiding Hood is TO.

[MikolasTheAngry]

I'm pretty sure Little Red Raiding Hood is TO.

What's TO? I'm not familiar with all the acronyms around yet. :smallfrown:

[Hiro Protagonest]

What's TO? I'm not familiar with all the acronyms around yet. :smallfrown:

Theoretical op. Not meant for actual play.

[MikolasTheAngry]

Theoretical op. Not meant for actual play.

Ah, understood.

[Quietus]

What's TO? I'm not familiar with all the acronyms around yet. :smallfrown:

Theoretical optimization. That is, technically possible- though sometimes the people drawing up these builds go to some pretty crazy lengths to argue what is and isn't allowed - but attempting to actually *use* it in a game is likely to ignite flying book bombs. Great for picking pieces out of, though, to create something that fits with your game's relative level.