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pendell
2011-08-23, 04:20 PM
So I'm reading through the history of Carthage, and I found an interesting practice used in ancient warfare called evocatio (http://www.mariamilani.com/ancient_rome/roman_and_foreign_gods_at_war.htm)

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evocatio#evocatio) also has a writeup of the practice.



The "calling forth" or "summoning away" of a deity was an evocatio, from evoco, evocare, "summon." The ritual was conducted in a military setting either as a threat during a siege or as a result of surrender, and aimed at diverting the favor of a tutelary deity from the opposing city to the Roman side, customarily with a promise of better-endowed cult or a more lavish temple.


In other words, when it ain't enough to kill your enemy, when it ain't enough to Soul Bind 'em. Heck now, that's for Piker's , we'll steal your gods !

So that naturally led me to the implications of this in a D&D 3 or 4 campaign.

1) What level spell would you set Steal Gods at? I'm assuming this would be a ritual magic on a mammoth, mammoth scale.

2) What mechanical effect would it have? As a start, I'm guessing that the other side's clerics suddenly don't have any juice -- their deity no longer listens to them. Your own clerics now have something new to pray too.

So if, for example, you managed to steal Bane from Zhentil Keep, your temple can now train clerics of Bane alongside clerics of Sune, assuming Sune was your original patron.

3) What sort of campaigns might result from this?

I can think of a few. The obvious one is that Evil BBEG is attempting to cast this spell and must be thwarted before the evil ritual is completing, trapping the gods of goodness and light in servitude to evil forever.

Second possible campaign: The BBEG has succeeded, and now our band of heroes must collect the seven macguffins from the seven dungeons to perform the ritual to free their gods and make their clerics operational again.

Third possible campaign: related to the first, a wannabe-Empire is collecting gods in the hopes of building a slave-pantheon. One Empire employing the massed might of all the gods of the world against opponents who are utterly deprived of clerical power. The objective is to free the gods from their grasp -- or, for an evil campaign, to capture them yourself!

...

Those are just some ideas. I'm just pondering the game implications. Has anyone ever done anything like this, in any module?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Zerter
2011-08-23, 04:29 PM
Just an idea, but I always like to think the BBEG is mostly interested in trying to conquer the world - not in succeeding. Once you have everything and you're still the same unhappy dude you have nothing more left to look forward to. No belief that if you just conquer something more you'll finally fill that void.

My suggestion: someone succeeds. Next thing is that he's a victim of his own succes, he wants to undo what he did but he can't. His minions, the living entity that controls the gods, whatever, would turn against him if they found out. So what does he do? He sneakily contacts a young band of inexperienced heroes (since no one would suspect) and (to them unknowingly) guides them on a long path towards freeing the gods and making things interesting for himself once again.

Doorhandle
2011-08-23, 04:56 PM
Good plot, but if your big bad had complete control over the gods, surely he would use their collective power to find other realms to conquer.

I mean, there's still the abyss, isn't there? Not to mention the other planes...

Lord.Sorasen
2011-08-23, 05:09 PM
1. It would definitely need to be an epic level spell. The Gods in D&D tend to be outrageously powerful (rightly so, as they're gods). To steal one would take a huuuge ritual. No way around it. I'd also say it'd take way more than a simple ritual. It'd take, like the description, bribery. The spell would make such a thing a possibility, but the one "stealing" the God would need to be able to make such a claim as to why it should happen.

2. Certainly, no cleric worshiping that God would be able to do so once that God no longer served him. Paladins, if your variant gains power from a God, would be the same way.

Including a rule like this also creates some new concepts. In D&D core rule, two clerics of the same God can fight each other, both gaining power. It often seems like the Gods do not actually pick a human side but rather the side of an ideal. Here, if a God can be coerced to follow one side over another, it'd either need to be an alignment shift... Or these Gods would need to actively take part in human affairs on a smaller scale.

3. I'm really not fond of the idea of the heroes needing to stop a villain from completing this ritual. This isn't a new campaign. It's a "stop the villain from apocalypse" campaign. It could be done with pretty much anything. This is a cool idea, so I'd want to see it used in a way only it can really be used in.

Here me out, because this is an idea I'm starting to like a lot (just saw Protomen so that could be why): A long era of peace. Suddenly, an end to that peace as a Lord of Darkness from a far away land gathers an army and attempts to conquer the mainland. The first target is a large temple of hieronymus, the chief God of the time (though for reasons unknown). The priests, having never seen the call of battle, run for their lives. Many of them pray. The ones that chose to keep praying are slaughtered in their temple. Their blood in the temple's walls serve as the focus needed to cast "steal God". And thus there is no protector serving the peace. Walls fall, people are murdered in mass, and a great world of pain is created.

Cut to heroes. Heroes need to reach the temple and destroy it, to bring peace. The point would be that destroying the temple isn't enough. Hieronymus is not under mind control, but making the decision to side with evil, for, as one might put it, there are no heroes left in Good. The heroes need to prove that the spirit needed to fight against the darkness still lives within mankind.

Eldest
2011-08-23, 05:18 PM
I sorta read the ritual more as "distract the other guys god from his favored city" more than "mwahaha, your god now likes me best", but that's just me.

Mando Knight
2011-08-23, 05:36 PM
The problem with adapting the practice to D&D is that the practice was based off of the idea that the god's power was not only local and limited to certain spheres of influence, but literally tied to the idols associated with them. D&D mostly uses the idea that deities are in some form transcendent of the mortal realm, so stealing them would be harder than kidnapping some warlord emperor dragon guy.

pendell
2011-08-23, 06:11 PM
The problem with adapting the practice to D&D is that the practice was based off of the idea that the god's power was not only local and limited to certain spheres of influence, but literally tied to the idols associated with them. D&D mostly uses the idea that deities are in some form transcendent of the mortal realm, so stealing them would be harder than kidnapping some warlord emperor dragon guy.

Ah, c'mon, that's no fun. Can't you just imagine this:

1) An altar with a sacrificial bull on it.
2) A big box above it, held up by a stick. A string leads from the stick to a band of adventurers, saying "heere, Paladine, Paladine, Paladine!"

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

Lunarix
2011-08-23, 07:41 PM
most Epic level campaigns are the typical "save the world/universe from impending doom" so I'll bite:

1) What level spell would you set Steal Gods at? I'm assuming this would be a ritual magic on a mammoth, mammoth scale.

Levels 20-30


2) What mechanical effect would it have? As a start, I'm guessing that the other side's clerics suddenly don't have any juice -- their deity no longer listens to them. Your own clerics now have something new to pray too.
getting the gods full powers, But im thinking instead of the powers being completely gone for clerics, i would think diminished would serve better; like 1/2 healing power.


3) What sort of campaigns might result from this?

I can think of a few. The obvious one is that Evil BBEG is attempting to cast this spell and must be thwarted before the evil ritual is completing, trapping the gods of goodness and light in servitude to evil forever.

Second possible campaign: The BBEG has succeeded, and now our band of heroes must collect the seven macguffins from the seven dungeons to perform the ritual to free their gods and make their clerics operational again.

Third possible campaign: related to the first, a wannabe-Empire is collecting gods in the hopes of building a slave-pantheon. One Empire employing the massed might of all the gods of the world against opponents who are utterly deprived of clerical power. The objective is to free the gods from their grasp -- or, for an evil campaign, to capture them yourself!

Campaign idea: Im thinking kind of a combo from first and second idea. Having a lich as a BBEG would be a good choice for this IMO. The lich needs these macguffins as a focuses for the ritual. For everyone he collects give a bonus to the end fight. (or penalty depending on how you want to build him)


All in all though sounds like a pretty cool campaign.

Show
2011-08-23, 10:16 PM
Has anyone considered the problems with the practical use of this spell? Would gods steal each other? Would epic spellcasters use their powers to cause the world to become one giant pokemon battle?

Sorcerer: I cast "Steal God" on Pelor! Pelor, use your divine light attack!

Wizard: Oh no! Nerull is weak against light attacks!

NichG
2011-08-23, 10:34 PM
If its of the 'it just works' style of magic, then its problematic since if you can make a 'Steal Gods' spell you might as well make a 'Become Gods' spell at a similar power level. Or just 'Dominate Gods'.

On the other hand, if there's a mandatory material component, it could be interesting. The material component? Sufficient material proof that those the god is defending have strayed from the god's ideal. E.g. the spell is more of a 'call the god's attention to the bad side of the target' kind of deal than a true coercion.

So the plot sequence might go something like this:

- Side 1 is fighting a theocratic empire (Side 2)
- Side 1 wants to lure the gods away from Side 2, so they set up a situation where the emperor or someone high up in the government of Side 2 will be tempted.
- If the emperor/etc succumbs to said temptation, they use the event as the material component for 'Steal Gods'

QuidEst
2011-08-24, 03:12 PM
Heh, this actually dates back to ancient Greece in a way. Cities would keep dead heroes in shrines to help combat. One tactic was to sneak into the city, yoink the body, and bring it over to your side. At the very least, you demoralized the enemy.

I don't really care for having the spell actually force the gods into submission. Rather, I like the idea that they can bribe a few deities into switching sides (probably works better for the treacherous, favor-the-strong, and wealth-oriented ones.) They might still slip a few favors to their favorite clerics now and again, and the treacherous ones probably wouldn't change much of anything at all about how they went about their business.

Traab
2011-08-24, 03:24 PM
I look on it as more of an imprisoning gods thing than stealing them for your side to use. (Though that could work as a parasitical use of the trapped god as a living magic battery) Here is a story idea.

BBEG is an Agnostic. He believes that gods exist, but that they shouldnt have anything to do with the lives of mortals. Oddly enough, they dont listen to him, so he has come up with a way to seal away the gods so their powers can no longer be used in the mortal realm. This is the back story.

Currently, the world is in chaos, the gods protections have been removed from the material plane, (or whatever you want to call it) and the only lingering shreds of god related power is from holy relics and idols (so as to allow for classes that need/want a patron god to follow) The adventure is for the party to go to where these gods are sealed away and free them. Each area where the god is located is chock full of related creatures to that faith that have lost their minds and become highly aggressive. After freeing a god or two you catch the attention of the BBEG and have to fight his forces as well as the native creatures in each area. Maybe throw in a macguffin that keeps the boss from resealing the gods as fast as you lock them away.

pendell
2011-08-24, 05:26 PM
I don't really care for having the spell actually force the gods into submission. Rather, I like the idea that they can bribe a few deities into switching sides (probably works better for the treacherous, favor-the-strong, and wealth-oriented ones.)


In D&D worlds, who would be most susceptible to this? I can imagine it's be a waste of time to try it with Paladine or Helm, but Sune or whoever the god of thieves is or even Lolth might be suitable targets. You need someone whose loyalty is -- conditional.

But then, very few gods are so totally devoted to their followers that there's NOTHING that can break their devotion, is there? Take Helm, for example. If his followers are living in clear and direct violation of his ideals -- indulging in treachery and murder , for example ... and you just might be able to swing him over from their side to the side of whoever they're fighting against.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Traab
2011-08-24, 05:34 PM
In D&D worlds, who would be most susceptible to this? I can imagine it's be a waste of time to try it with Paladine or Helm, but Sune or whoever the god of thieves is or even Lolth might be suitable targets. You need someone whose loyalty is -- conditional.

But then, very few gods are so totally devoted to their followers that there's NOTHING that can break their devotion, is there? Take Helm, for example. If his followers are living in clear and direct violation of his ideals -- indulging in treachery and murder , for example ... and you just might be able to swing him over from their side to the side of whoever they're fighting against.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The problem with the more conditional gods, especially lolth and those similar, is that you cant count on them to stay bribed.