Too many attacks! Help!

[McToomin]

So I was just sort of making a character that likely won't appear in any campaign I play (since my DMs don't like Tome of Battle), but it fits my character really well. Originally he was split between Monk/Sorcerer/Enlightened Fist, but then I realized it'd be better to just go 18 Swordsage/2 Monk (the Monk levels are for the bonus feats).

I liked the idea of him being able to attack a bunch of times in one turn, but I ran into a problem. After coming up with a bunch of stuff, I have NO idea how many attacks he would get per turn, and at what modifiers. Here's what I have so far, and then I'll ask my questions:

+15/+10+/+5 ~ BAB ~ since I'm using the Monk's unarmed strike progression, I don't see why the BAB progression would reset to +0 and +1 for the Monk levels, so I just continued the progression. If there's something official that says I shouldn't do this please let me know, but the alternate unarmed Swordsage section is fairly vague so this is what I decided.

+6 ~ Strength modifier (my Dex is +10, so I may end up going for Weapon Finesse, but I don't currently have it)

Two-Weapon Fighting ~ to reduce penalties

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting ~ additional attack at -5 penalty

Dual Strike ~ strike with main hand and off-hand as a standard action

Mantis Leap ~ 2 extra attack, -5 to all attacks in round

Bounding Assault ~ gain an extra attack during Spring Attack (which I do have)

Speed Gauntlet ~ extra attack

Speed Gauntlet ~ extra attack? I'm wearing one on each hand (the gauntlet entry clearly specifies it's for a single gauntlet, so I enchanted them both with the Speed aspect)

So now on to the questions.

1) Is there one of those handy optimization guides for gaining extra attacks? I couldn't find one.

2) As-is, what would a full-round attack action for this character look like?

3) The Speed aspect says it does not stack with things like haste. However, that's only the gauntlet that is enchanted with speed, yet my unarmed strikes can come from any body part. So could I benefit from a haste spell and gain an extra attack by kicking?

4) Do the two Speed gauntlets stack, or can only one work?

5) What would Spring attack look like for this character? Would Dual Strike give me at least 2 attacks per my two opponents? Would I get more? Less?

6) I took the two levels of Monk for the feats, but that does mean that I also get Flurry of Blows. So what does a full-attack look like with that? Do I only get the two attacks for a level 2 Monk flurry of blows, or do other attacks also get in there somehow?

In addition to all this, I then also have my maneuvers to consider:

7) Avalanche of Blades: Could I use this on the last swing of a normal full-round action, giving me extra attacks to begin, or do I have to do only this as a full-round? If the latter, would it even be worth it to take this maneuver?

8) What about Bounding Assault (the maneuver, not the feat). This maneuver is very similar to Spring Attack, does any of it overlap? Can I use the Bounding Assault feat while using the Bounding Assault maneuver? (agh this is starting to give me a headache)

9) What about the Dancing and Raging Mongoose maneuvers? For Raging, I get two extra attacks per weapon I wield, up to a max of four. Do each of my fists, or my fists and my legs, etc., count as two separate weapons? Or does "Unarmed" count as my only weapon? Could I use my Gauntlet as a weapon and then kick as an Unarmed to count as two weapons?

10) How about something like Death from Above? It says if I make the Jump check, I get a single melee attack vs. my opponent. But does Dual Strike give me 2 attacks instead? What about my Speed gauntlets??

I understand this is long and it might be really confusing. If I've left out any critical info. just let me know. I'm just so confused on when I can attack, how often, and at what kind of penalty. If someone could clear these questions up for me, I'd be eternally grateful, but I'll seriously understand if no one wants to wade through all of this.

[HunterOfJello]

You might want to start with the Flurry of Blows + Two-Weapon Fighting threads. I don't think the two of them stack, but there are a number of arguments for either position from what I remember.

The feat that you refer to as 'Mantis Leap' is called Lightning Fists in my copy of Sword and Fist. The d&d toolshop has the feat listed as Mantis Leap (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-1843-mantis-leap.html), which could be the reason for the confusion. Regardless, that feat requires 4 levels in Monk, so you don't actually qualify for it.

I'm also not sure what source you took the 'Speed Gauntlet' from. Is it supposed to be an armor enhancement? The Speed armor enhancement takes a swift action to activate and therefore could not be used twice in the same round unless you somehow have the ability to use 2 swift actions on the same turn. There's an item in the MiC called the Bracers of Blinding Strike that have an effect similar to what you refer to, but they're a set of bracers and also require a swift action to activate.

[HappyBlanket]

Your BAB isn't equal to what's presented on the class table. What's listed there is how much you add to your current BAB. So if your level 18 Swordsage had +13/+8/+3, and then took a single level of Monk, said Swordsage would add +0 BAB. This means that a Swordsage18 and a Swordsage18 / Monk1 have equal BAB scores. Extending that, your second level of Monk (making Swordsage18 / Monk 2), would add +1, as listed on the Monk's class table. So a Swordsage18 / Monk2 would have +14/+9/+5.

You are aware that Mantis Leap is 3.0, right?

I don't know where Speed Gauntlet is from. I'm assuming its a piece of equipment that fills the glove slot. However, generally speaking the equipment slots available to you don't account for bonuses from multiple items filling the same slot. Two Speed Gauntlets (even though each only covers one hand) will only give you the benefit of the first glove worn, just like how wearing two magical leather shirts won't give you the benefits of both shirts. Oh, it's a weapon :P Then yes, they benefits stack.

[Crow]

If the two Speed gauntlets are being used as weapons, then the Speed stacks, as in 1 extra attack with each gauntlet (You may not make two extra attacks with the same gauntlet, nor can you take 1 extra attack with a gauntlet and 1 extra attack with a foot. The enhancement applies only to the weapon it is on). If they are just being worn for the hell of it, then they do not stack, and if you do not attack with a gauntlet, you receive no benefit from the Speed property. Speed is a *weapon* enhancement.

Also, if you are receiving an extra attack from the Speed enhancement, you do not get any extra attacks from Haste. If you did not attack with your Speed weapons (for instance, your monk uses only his feet this round), then you DO get the extra attack from Haste.

[HappyBlanket]

If the two Speed gauntlets are being used as weapons, then the Speed stacks. If they are just being worn for the hell of it, then they do not stack. Speed is a *weapon* enhancement.

Oooooh. Wow, I was thinking they were magical gloves xD In that case, as weapons, their effects do stack.

[HunterOfJello]

7. The manuever Avalanche of Blades would not stack with any other benefits from having extra attacks unless you take a swift action to gain an attack after you've finished the maneuver. Avalanche of Blades take 1 full-round action and has its own method of generating extra attacks. It won't interact with your other methods.

8. The Bounding Assault maneuver is specifically designated as a 1 full-round action and as a type of charge attack. Any feats you have that can improve charge attacks may be relevant to this maneuver. However, feats that you have that improve Spring Attack have nothing to do with this maneuver. Therefore the Bounding Assault Feat does not interact with the Bounding Assault Maneuver.

9. Dancing and Raging Mongoose will likely stack with most of the different setups that you've developed because they're initiated as swift action and not as Standard or Full-Round Actions that attack an enemy. How many weapons a PC is considered as 'weilding' for purposes of unarmed strikes is beyond me.

[Keld Denar]

Speed weapons are based on Haste, and Haste attacks NEVER stack with themselves, or any other magic that functions similar to Haste. You can only ever gain one extra Haste attack, no matter if you are wielding one Speed weapon, two Speed weapons, or you are a Marilith with 6 Speed weapons.

As far as TWFing with a single UAS, the rules are kinda vague on that one. Some rules seem to indicate that UAS is like a weapon, and you simple "equip" it, or as many as you could normally wield. Others seem to indicate that you only have one UAS, and that you can't attack with it as if it were multiple weapons. The Sage tends to agree with the former, FWIW.

Regardless, penalties from multiple attacks gained all stack. If you are TWFing, you have a -2 with your main hand and offhand. If you also Snap Kick, you'll have a -4 with your main hand, offhand, and Snap Kick attack. If you are also Flurrying, you'll have a -6 on your main hand, offhand, Snap Kick, and Flurry attack.

[HunterOfJello]

Ah, the speed gauntlets make more sense now. It's worth noting the specific text on the Speed enhancement.


When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed
weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the
wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to
the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects,
such as a haste spell.)

You gain the benefit of the Speed enhancement when making a Full Attack Action. That is a different action than an Attack Action, Standard Action, and from a Full Round Action. None of your maneuvers other than boosts are going to make use of the Speed enhancements unless it specifically says that during the maneuver you make a Full Attack Action. Most maneuvers are Standard or Full Round Actions and therefore aren't very useful with the Speed enhancement.

9. As explained in the text above, the Speed enhancement is only useful during a Full Attack Action. Death from Above is a Full Round Action. Dual Strike uses a Standard Action. Therefore, neither the Speed enhancement nor Dual Strike will add any extra attacks to the Death From Above maneuver.


~

As far as Speed being put on two separate weapons, I would think that each weapon would be allowed an extra attack during that Full Attack Action, especially if you're using Two-Weapon Fighting. If others can find precedence or more specific information on it then I'd be interested in hearing it.

[Crow]

Speed weapons are based on Haste, and Haste attacks NEVER stack with themselves, or any other magic that functions similar to Haste. You can only ever gain one extra Haste attack, no matter if you are wielding one Speed weapon, two Speed weapons, or you are a Marilith with 6 Speed weapons.

Yes, but the effect isn't stacking. The Speed property is allowing you to take one extra attack with only that weapon. If you dole out the extra cash to put it on a second weapon, you don't receive two extra attacks carte blanche, but extra attacks for each weapon which may only be used with that specific weapon (using the appropriate attack modifier for that weapon). Nothing is stacking.

Plus, I can't remember which book it's in, but there is a precedent for Speed on two separate weapons being used as described above.

[mootoall]

There is an alternate rule, in UA, called Fractional BAB, that would get you your +15/10/5 iteratives with that class combination.

[Paul H]

Hi

Looking at similar thing, but for the PFS campaign,

Synthesist works well, but just going for extra primary attacks with 2H weapons & Pwr Attack. Like Marilith(?), but med size.

Thanks
Paul H

[Keld Denar]

Plus, I can't remember which book it's in, but there is a precedent for Speed on two separate weapons being used as described above.

There's precident for at least half a dozen example characters that don't qualify for their PrCs, but we don't take them as RAW for ignoring prereqs, do we?

Are you gaining extra attacks? Yes. Are those attacks from something Haste related? Yes. Thus, it doesn't matter. The only thing having 2 Speed weapons would allow you to do would be to pick which of the two weapons you want to make the extra attack with. Heck, even look at the spell you need to cast to enchant a weapon with Speed...its Haste. That alone should answer any questions. It is a weapon that grants continuous Haste, with the caveat that the Haste attack must be made with the Speed weapon. Speed even says: "(This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)" Another Speed weapon is a similar effect, as similar as one can get without being the SAME. Look at any other similar effect. Bracers of Rapid Striking. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. Snake's Swiftness. Valiant Fury. All have the same "does not stack with similar effects" clause.

[Crow]

Firstly, the weapon does not confer a continuous Haste on the wielder. Only an extra attack with "it" as the SRD puts it. So yes, similar effects may not be used to gain extra attacks with "it". Having the Speed property on a separate weapon is not effecting our original "it", but our expensive new "that". As I mentioned earlier, you aren't getting attacks that you can use for whatever you want, like with the Haste spell, nor are you getting more than one extra attack with that weapon.

...and since when do we make rulings on the weapon property based upon the spells required by the caster who crafts it? By that line of reasoning, when I hit an enemy with my Flaming longsword, he would be entitled to a reflex save because Flame Strike or Fireball were used to craft the weapon.

In any case, I'm not going to sit around and debate this, because I can't find for the life of me, the precedent I mentioned earlier (away from *most* books). The bottom line is that it's not cut and dry, and you should talk to your DM to see what he allows, because obviously, it could differ from what anybody says on here. If you are the DM, make your own call. If it were me, I'd allow it.

[Randomguy]

I don't know whether nor not flurry of blows stacks with TWF. Just ask your DM.

Without flurry of blows, you have +14/+14/+9/+4 with your main hand and +14/+14+14 with your off hand.

This is also without Mantis leap, since that 3.0. With mantis leap you get +9/+9/+9/+9/+4/+1 with your main hand and +9/+9/+9 with your off hand. I really suggest you go for weapon finesse.

Dual strike doesn't come into play in a full attack, only with standard actions. Bounding assault only comes into play with spring attack, not with full attacks.

If you get snap kick, you can squeeze another attack in there, but at half strength bonus instead of full strength bonus to damage, and all other attacks would take a -2.

[Keld Denar]

In any case, I'm not going to sit around and debate this, because I can't find for the life of me, the precedent I mentioned earlier (away from books).

I'll give you a hint. Its a staff, and its in the Epic Level Handbook.

Aww heck, I'll even link it:

Quarterstaff of Alacrity
Both ends of this +5 quarterstaff of speed have equal enhancement and special powers, meaning that it allows an additional attack with each end every round. While the quarterstaff of alacrity is held, it grants its wielder a +5 resistance bonus on Reflex saves. It also deflects ranged weapons as if the wielder had the Deflect Arrows and Infinite Deflection feats.

Caster Level: 21st; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, protection from arrows, shield; Market Price: 462,600 gp; Cost to Create: 231,600 gp + 14,620 XP.
Again, still doesn't prove anything. The Greenstar Adept example doesn't qualify for his PrC...does that mean that prereqs should always be ignored? No. Text always trumps examples. The text on Speed says that it never stacks with similar effects. Extra attacks from other Speed weapons is similar enough for me.

[Paul H]

Hi

Unfortunately Synthesists can only get max 7 attacks/rnd, but 7 attacks/rnd w/Nodachi's, Pwr Attacking, Arcane Striking, etc, makes for one hell of a shredder..... :smallbiggrin:

Thanks
Paul H

[McToomin]

Ah I totally missed that ("that" being the Monk level 4 prereq for this feat, I'm not going further into Monk to get it because I want two 9th level maneuvers), so Mantis Leap/Lightning Fists is out. Speed is a magic weapon augmentation from the DMG (pg. 225). I enhanced some gauntlets so that I could add the Speed to it. But ok, so both Speed gauntlets are out.

So now I'm at

+14/+9/+4

Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting ~ extra attack

Dual Strike ~ gain off-hand attack during standard action

Speed gauntlet ~ from the listing on pg. 225 in the DMG

"When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus."

So this is what seems to be happening to me for a full attack action (ignoring flurry of blows):

+14 (+14 BAB, +6 Str, -4 for Dual Strike, -2 Two-Weapon Fighting)
~Dual Strike second attack, uses above bonus (not another +14, both attacks come from the one roll)
+20 (Speed gauntlet extra attack - highest BAB (14), +6 Str)
+15 (+9 BAB, +6 Str)
+10 (+4 BAB, +6 Str)
+4 (TWF -2 penalty, +6 Str)
+1 (ITWF -5 penalty, +6 Str)

Is this correct? So if I did take Weapon Finesse (I have a Dex mod of +10), it'd bump it up to

+18
~Dual Strike second attack
+24
+19
+14
+8
+6

Also, what would a standard action attack be?

+14 (+14 BAB, +6 Str, -4 for Dual Strike, -2 Two-Weapon Fighting)
~Dual Strike second attack, uses above bonus (not another +14, both attacks come from the one roll)
+15 (+9 BAB, +6 Str)
+10 (+4 BAB, +6 Str)
+4 (TWF -2 penalty, +6 Str)
+1 (ITWF -5 penalty, +6 Str)

Do I really get all of these as a standard action? I'm still confused on my Bounding Assault maneuver:

"You combine speed and blah blah blah.

As part of this maneuver, make a double move. After you move, you can also make a melee attack. You gain a +2 bonus on this attack. This maneuver is considered a charge attack when determining if feats and other abilities apply to your attack."

Now that I'm reading it (and the charge rules (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Charge)), I actually don't see how it's at all different from a normal charge, and why would you ever take it.

I had also asked about Spring Attack. According to the feat: "When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed."

What exactly is "the attack action"? Is that the standard action to attack, meaning I get the +14/DS/+15/+10/+4/+1 I worked out above?

I'm also still unclear on the Raging Mongoose maneuver. From the description: "After initiating this boost, you can make two additional attacks with each weapon you wield (to a maximum of four extra attacks if you wield two or more weapons). These extra attacks are made at your highest attack bonus for each of your respective weapons. You can spread these attacks out among as many foes as you wish."

So, from the description, it seems like I'd have to wield at least one weapon, if I include my unarmed strikes as a different weapon. However, could my gauntlets that I'm wearing count as a weapon, and then I could kick with my unarmed strike as the other weapon? I'm not sure why not, and this way I'd still get my unarmed damage on both "weapons," but I'm just making sure.

*I just did some more reading, and I should clarify that I'm sort of working on the assumption that an unarmed fighter (Swordsage/Monk) could slip on gauntlets over his wrists and be able to enhance those with magical properties. I know there's some controversy about this, but this is what I'm going with until I see a clear definition.

So if the above is true, then to my understand using Raging Mongoose (can't use it as a full attack since activating it requires a swift action) would yield:

+14 (+14 BAB, +6 Str, -4 for Dual Strike, -2 Two-Weapon Fighting)
~Dual Strike second attack, uses above bonus (not another +14, both attacks come from the one roll)
+20 ~ RagingMongoose gauntlet extra 1 (BAB +14, +6 Str)
+20 ~ RM gauntlet extra 2 (BAB +14, +6 Str)
+20 ~ RM unarmed extra 1 (BAB +14, +6 Str)
+20 ~ RM unarmed extra 2 (BAB +14, +6 Str)
+15 (+9 BAB, +6 Str)
+10 (+4 BAB, +6 Str)
+4 (TWF -2 penalty, +6 Str)
+1 (ITWF -5 penalty, +6 Str)

which is pretty insane.


*Wow, so a lot of people replied after I started typing this post. Now I gotta go back and edit in what I'm reading :P. So some of the above will be incorrect, but as long as I have the base "what is an actual standard attack," etc. to go off of, I think I can fill in the wrong parts above.

Ok, so from Keld I'm adding Snap Kick and the penalties associated with it.

I'm also adding Weapon Finesse, because these minuses are starting to get brutal :P.

+16 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, -4 for Dual Strike, -2 Two-Weapon Fighting, -2 Snap Kick)
~Dual Strike second attack, uses above bonus (not another +14, both attacks come from the one roll)
+20 ~Snap Kick (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 Snap Kick, -2 for TWF)
+15 (+9 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 TWF, -2 Snap Kick)
+10 (+4 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 TWF, -2 Snap Kick)
+4 (TWF -2 penalty, +10 Dex, -2 TWF, -2 Snap Kick)
+1 (ITWF -5 penalty, +10 Dex, -2 TWF, -2 Snap Kick)

(*EDIT* Which would make my new Raging Mongoose:

+16 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, -4 for Dual Strike, -2 Two-Weapon Fighting, -2 Snap Kick)
~Dual Strike second attack, uses above bonus (not another +14, both attacks come from the one roll)
+20 ~Snap Kick (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 Snap Kick, -2 TWF)
+20 ~RM extra 1 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 Snap Kick, -2 TWF)
+20 ~RM extra 2 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 Snap Kick, -2 TWF)
+20 ~RM extra 3 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 Snap Kick, -2 TWF)
+20 ~RM extra 4 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 Snap Kick, -2 TWF)
+15 (+9 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 TWF, -2 Snap Kick)
+10 (+4 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 TWF, -2 Snap Kick)
+4 (TWF -2 penalty, +10 Dex, -2 TWF, -2 Snap Kick)
+1 (ITWF -5 penalty, +10 Dex, -2 TWF, -2 Snap Kick)

for a grand total of:

+16/DS/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+4/+1

all as a STANDARD ACTION. That's even more insane, even if the last few are unlikely to connect.)

At least I thought I was working this right, until I read this:


Without flurry of blows, you have +14/+14/+9/+4 with your main hand and +14/+14+14 with your off hand.

Wait... wha? So what do I have wrong above? I didn't bother to list main hand and off-hand separately (even though I realize with TWF you're supposed to) since for the purposes of this I'm counting the gauntlet and unarmed strike (such as kicking or whatever) as my two weapons, but both get the same attack bonus so I didn't figure I needed to list them separately.

I'm also ignoring flurry of blows for now, I'd just like to know what a standard attack is for this character.

*SUPER IMPORTANT EDIT*

Gah, totally forgot something too. My character is a Kobold! That means that from the Races of the Dragon web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), I've got two claws and a bite attack to work with as well!

So let's just pretend that for the purposes of Two-Weapon Fighting, I can indeed do something like Unarmed Strike (left leg kick) and Unarmed Strike (right leg kick), leaving my hands open. Can I ALSO do either claws or the bite in addition to my above standard attack sequence?? Would getting Multiattack be needed?

[Paul H]

Hi

The 'Attack Action' refers to a Standard, Single attack.

Multiple attacks (TWF, etc) require a Full-Round action.

Thanks
Paul H
Edit: The Flurry of Blows count as using your natural attacks (you don't get them as well). However, using TWF for your claws, (or hand held weapons) you could get secondary attacks with your bite. (Multi-attack reduces penalty to -2)

[McToomin]

So anything more than a single attack requires a full-round action? Dual Strike doesn't, since it directly says a "standard action" in its description, and Snap Kick also stays, as it specifically says a standard action). So according to that (that Two-Weapon Fighting (and its improvements) don't count during a standard action), my standard attack sequence is still:


+18 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, -4 for Dual Strike, -2 Snap Kick)
~Dual Strike second attack, uses above bonus (not another +14, both attacks come from the one roll)
+22 ~Snap Kick (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 Snap Kick)
+17 (+9 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 Snap Kick)
+12 (+4 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 Snap Kick)

Right? Or do I lose my two extra attacks as well?

So that would turn my full attack action into the following, assuming I add both of my Speed gauntlets (if two ends of the same weapon each get a new attack, I don't see why that wouldn't apply to two separate weapons as well), and just for the WTH of it, my Raging Mongoose too*.

*I looked it up, and here's the description of swift actions (which activating Raging Mongoose is):

A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. However, you can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting or the activation of magic items; many characters (especially those who don't cast spells) never have an opportunity to take a swift action.

The bold means to me that I can indeed activate Raging Mongoose and then full attack. So with that in mind:

+16 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, -4 for Dual Strike, -2 Two-Weapon Fighting, -2 Snap Kick)
~Dual Strike second attack, uses above bonus (not another +16, both attacks come from the one roll)
+20 ~Snap Kick (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 Snap Kick, -2 TWF)
+20 ~Speed gauntlet 1 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 TWF, -2 Snap Kick)
+20 ~Speed gauntlet 2 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 TWF, -2 Snap Kick)
+20 ~RM extra 1 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 Snap Kick, -2 TWF)
+20 ~RM extra 2 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 Snap Kick, -2 TWF)
+20 ~RM extra 3 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 Snap Kick, -2 TWF)
+20 ~RM extra 4 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 Snap Kick, -2 TWF)
+15 (+9 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 TWF, -2 Snap Kick)
+10 (+4 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 TWF, -2 Snap Kick)
+4 (TWF -2 penalty, +10 Dex, -2 TWF, -2 Snap Kick)
+1 (ITWF -5 penalty, +10 Dex, -2 TWF, -2 Snap Kick)

for a grand total of:

+16/DS/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+4/+1

and that's NOT including natural attacks! Here's what I found at d20srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) regarding it (under "Manufactured Weapons"):

"Some monsters employ manufactured weapons when they attack. Creatures that use swords, bows, spears, and the like follow the same rules as characters, including those for additional attacks from a high base attack bonus and two-weapon fighting penalties. This category also includes “found items,” such as rocks and logs, that a creature wields in combat— in essence, any weapon that is not intrinsic to the creature.

Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual -5 penalty (or -2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon."

This, to me, makes it sound like my regular Swordsage/Monk attacks are manufactured weapons (backed up by the Monk unarmed strike description), and it turns my both my bite AND my claws into secondary natural weapons. Is this not correct? Also, assuming I take Multiattack (to lessen the secondary attacks to -2), what kind of bonuses do I get to those attacks? Do I only get the bite, or do I also get the claws (that's what it sounds like to me)? Do I get a BAB or Weapon Finesse bonus on these secondary attacks, or do I ONLY get the -2's? What about the minuses for my other attacks (Snap Kick and TWF penalties)?

Help me add my natural attacks to the sequence to make it even longer!

*EDIT* Ah, I had another question about Bounding Assault (the feat) as well:

"When using the Spring Attack feat, you designate two foes rather than one. Your movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity from either of these foes. While using an attack action with the Spring Attack feat, you can make a second attack with a -5 penalty. You can use both attacks against one of the opponents targeted with this feat, or split your attacks between them."

By "a second attack," is this a whole second standard attack sequence (which at the VERY LEAST includes Dual Strike and Snap Kick if I wish) at a further -5 penalty to each attack in this sequence? And where would secondary attacks fit in here?

I'm seriously considering giving up 2 more levels of Swordsage to grab Lightning Fists :P. The only problem being of course that one of the 9th level maneuvers I want is Time Stands Still, which would make my attacks in that turn (still NOT counting Kobold natural weapons):

+16/DS/+16/DS/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+4/+4/+1/+1

... :belkar:

[McToomin]

Here's another question in addition to the above; Flying Kick:

"When fighting unarmed and using the charge action, you deal an extra 1d12 points of damage with your unarmed attack."

What if I gain pounce and do a full attack at the end of my charge? Would the extra d12 apply to every unarmed attack I use?

[Lucid]

Ah I totally missed that ("that" being the Monk level 4 prereq for this feat, I'm not going further into Monk to get it because I want two 9th level maneuvers), so Mantis Leap/Lightning Fists is out. You CAN get 6 levels of monk, or monk2/X 4, and get two 9th lvll maneuvers and an 8th lvl stance, as long as you take swordsage as the last level. In fact, with your current build you could theoretically get 5 9th lvl maneuvers, though qualifying might be a problem.

Remember, all non-swordsage levels count as half for your initiator level, and at each even level from 4th you get to swap out maneuvers(even exchanging a 1st lvl for a 9th).

[McToomin]

You CAN get 6 levels of monk, or monk2/X 4, and get two 9th lvll maneuvers and an 8th lvl stance, as long as you take swordsage as the last level. In fact, with your current build you could theoretically get 5 9th lvl maneuvers, though qualifying might be a problem.

Remember, all non-swordsage levels count as half for your initiator level, and at each even level from 4th you get to swap out maneuvers(even exchanging a 1st lvl for a 9th).

I don't really understand how this would work. With 2 levels of Monk, it would add 1 more to my initiator level (for effective Swordsage 19). But how would I get the extra Monk levels? I checked all abilities/items/etc. that add "Monk levels" for things like unarmed progression, AC bonus, etc. (things like Monk's tattoo and Monk's Belt), but those all list specific bonuses, nothing ever says your actual Monk level is increased. Where is the x4 coming from?

[Lucid]

I don't really understand how this would work. With 2 levels of Monk, it would add 1 more to my initiator level (for effective Swordsage 19). But how would I get the extra Monk levels? I checked all abilities/items/etc. that add "Monk levels" for things like unarmed progression, AC bonus, etc. (things like Monk's tattoo and Monk's Belt), but those all list specific bonuses, nothing ever says your actual Monk level is increased. Where is the x4 coming from? I meant that you could take more monk levels to qualify for the Lightning Fists feat, going with monk4/swordsage 16.

The x4 just stands for other, non-monk, non-swordsage levels. You could for example take Monk4/Fighter2/Swordsage 14, and still get two 9th level maneuvers.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes, but the effect isn't stacking. The Speed property is allowing you to take one extra attack with only that weapon. If you dole out the extra cash to put it on a second weapon, you don't receive two extra attacks carte blanche, but extra attacks for each weapon which may only be used with that specific weapon (using the appropriate attack modifier for that weapon). Nothing is stacking.

Plus, I can't remember which book it's in, but there is a precedent for Speed on two separate weapons being used as described above.

Explicitly incorrect. The [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#speed]Speed[/quote] enhancement states:


(This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

So no, gauntlets of speed won't work. And will reduce your punch damage to d4's, since it's now a weapon, rather than an unarmed strike.

[McToomin]

Still hoping someone can help me with my questions above (specifically regarding my natural Kobold secondary attacks and how they fit in there), but just wanted to let everyone know this update; I got my hands on Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Manyshot* Rapidstrike** in addition to everything else I had*** (again, this is only a hypothetical, it probably won't see actual play). I also forgot that his magic weapons are +5's. So it turns his full attack action into:

BAB = Base Attack Bonus
MW = Magic Weapon
DS = Dual Strike
SK = Snap Kick
RS = Rapid Shot

*Just reread Manyshot, and it specifies arrows. I was hoping to use it with Shuriken. Now I am disappoint. :(

**Qualify for it by having 2 claw attacks and being a Dragonwrought Kobold. :P Only problem is I still don't understand how natural secondary attacks work with either full attack or standard attack, so I don't have it here, but I'm still hoping someone can help me with it!

***I'm removing the second Speed weapon attack. While the Quarterstaff of Alacrity is interesting, it does not have the haste spell as part of its creation, while Speed enchantment does, leading me to believe that it wouldn't stack with itself ever.

+23 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, +5 MW, -2 SK, -2 RS, -2 TWF)
+18 ~Shuriken (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, -2 SK, -2 RS, -2 TWF)
+23 ~Snap Kick (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, +5 MW, -2 SK, -2 RS, -2 TWF)
+23 ~Speed gauntlet 1 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, +5 MW, -2 SK, -2 RS, -2 TWF)
+23 ~RM extra 1 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, +5 MW, -2 SK, -2 RS, -2 TWF)
+23 ~RM extra 2 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, +5 MW, -2 SK, -2 RS, -2 TWF)
+23 ~RM extra 3 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, +5 MW, -2 SK, -2 RS, -2 TWF)
+23 ~RM extra 4 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, +5 MW, -2 SK, -2 RS, -2 TWF)
+18 (+9 BAB, +10 Dex, +5 MW, -2 SK, -2 RS, -2 TWF)
+13 (+4 BAB, +10 Dex, +5 MW, -2 SK, -2 RS, -2 TWF)
+9 ~TWF (+10 Dex, +5 MW, -2 SK, -2 RS, -2 TWF)
+6 ~ITWF (+10 Dex, +5 MW, -2 SK, -2 RS, -5 TWF)

for a

+23/+18/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+18/+13/+9/+6

full attack, and then for standard I get:

+23 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, +5 MW, -2 SK, -4 DS)
DS (~extra damage using above roll)
+27 ~Snap Kick (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, +5 MW, -2 SK)
+27 ~RM extra 1 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, +5 MW, -2 SK)
+27 ~RM extra 2 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, +5 MW, -2 SK)
+27 ~RM extra 3 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, +5 MW, -2 SK)
+27 ~RM extra 4 (+14 BAB, +10 Dex, +5 MW, -2 SK)

for a grand total of:

+23/DS/+27/+27/+27/+27/+27

(assuming of course I use my Raging Mongoose, which since I'd always have that prepared, I'd get at LEAST one per encounter :P).

So here are the remaining outstanding questions I'm still not sure on:

TL;DR Here are a few questions left in easy list form!

1)

Without flurry of blows, you have +14/+14/+9/+4 with your main hand and +14/+14+14 with your off hand.

Still not sure where this is coming from, or how my above calculations are wrong. Does anyone have clarification?

2) As a Kobold including the Races of the Dragon web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), I get 2 claws and a bite attack. How do these work in conjunction with the above full attack and standard attack sequences?

3) Related to #2, I have Rapidstrike. How would that factor in to my natural attacks?

4) About Bounding Assault (the feat):

"When using the Spring Attack feat, you designate two foes rather than one. Your movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity from either of these foes. While using an attack action with the Spring Attack feat, you can make a second attack with a -5 penalty. You can use both attacks against one of the opponents targeted with this feat, or split your attacks between them."

By "a second attack," is this a whole second standard attack sequence (which at the VERY LEAST includes Dual Strike and Snap Kick if I wish) at a further -5 penalty to each attack in this sequence? And where would secondary attacks fit in here?

5) I was going to ask again about the Monk2/x4, but I understand now, thanks Lucid. I'm probably going to go with Fighter then, for those precious feats. :P

[ShneekeyTheLost]

4) About Bounding Assault (the feat):

"When using the Spring Attack feat, you designate two foes rather than one. Your movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity from either of these foes. While using an attack action with the Spring Attack feat, you can make a second attack with a -5 penalty. You can use both attacks against one of the opponents targeted with this feat, or split your attacks between them."

By "a second attack," is this a whole second standard attack sequence (which at the VERY LEAST includes Dual Strike and Snap Kick if I wish) at a further -5 penalty to each attack in this sequence? And where would secondary attacks fit in here? First, you have to understand that you only get a SINGLE attack with Spring Attack. No iterative attacks. No natural attacks. ONE. That's it.

Okay, with Bounding Assault, you get a second attack. That makes TWO. Total. That's it.

Snap Kick adds one, but dual strike doesn't.


5) I was going to ask again about the Monk2/x4, but I understand now, thanks Lucid. I'm probably going to go with Fighter then, for those precious feats. :P

Check out the variant monk styles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) which have different bonus feats at 1st and 2nd level. There are times when two levels in monk provides just as much feat boost as two levels in Fighter, then gives you Evasion, solid boost to saves, boost to your unarmed strike progression, and more skill points. Worth more than a single point of BAB in some situations.

[Crow]

Explicitly incorrect. The [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#speed]Speed
Bit late to the party bud. It's not stacking.

[ericgrau]

Average CR 18 monster AC is 32 making attacks below +17 almost useless. Though maybe you could convert them to touch attacks such as trips. You also need to consider the damage of some attacks and whether it's worth the attack roll penalty to 10 other attacks. i.e., find their damage before and after the penalty.

[Xtomjames]

What I'd say is take one level of Barbarian with the Spirit Lion Totem to gain pounce.

[McToomin]

Average CR 18 monster AC is 32 making attacks below +17 almost useless.

Yeah I'd been considering that too, and the TWF and ITWF penalties are killing me. I'll probably remove them, those two extra attacks are barely worth it.

Now if I could get Perfect TWF, that'd be a different story. :P


First, you have to understand that you only get a SINGLE attack with Spring Attack. No iterative attacks. No natural attacks. ONE. That's it.

Okay, with Bounding Assault, you get a second attack. That makes TWO. Total. That's it.

Snap Kick adds one, but dual strike doesn't.

Thank you, that's exactly what I was looking for.

New questions!

1) I decided to take a level of Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian.

"While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round."

Does that mean it applies to both standard and full attack sequences?

2) For my fourth non-Swordsage class I'm taking Warlock with the Spiderwalk least invocation, giving me 24 hour spider climb (at least according to its description "You can grant yourself the ability to spider climb (as the spell) with a duration of 24 hours.").

I say that because I'm trying to combine it with Battle Jump, but am becoming confused.

My idea was to be able to climb up on a wall (possibly invisibly or otherwise unnoticed, haven't gotten that far), and then fling myself at the enemy. Since it's a charge, I gain my pounce full attack sequence right? And then everything that does connect gets doubled ("If you hit, you can choose either to deal double damage with a melee weapon or natural attack, or to attempt a trip attack.")? I'm a little fuzzy because it's specifying a single attack, but that's because that's what normally happens at the end of a charge. But with a pounce (using my natural weapons, or manufactured, it doesn't matter), I get my full attack, and then does that get doubled?

3) What about Flying Kick?

"When fighting unarmed and using the charge action, you deal an extra 1d12 points of damage with your unarmed attack."

So does that mean that, since I get my full attack for a charge, I get an extra 1d12 for each attack that connects?

4) I still don't have any idea how my claw/claw/bite natural weapons work into anything! Help!

[DeltaEmil]

1) I decided to take a level of Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian.

"While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round."

Does that mean it applies to both standard and full attack sequences?You can only make your extra attacks with a full-round action.

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.

[tyckspoon]

New questions!

1) I decided to take a level of Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian.

"While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round."

Does that mean it applies to both standard and full attack sequences?


No. Unless something says otherwise- and exceptions to this are usually pretty clear about it, like Snap Kick- you must make a Full Attack in order to make multiple attacks.



4) I still don't have any idea how my claw/claw/bite natural weapons work into anything! Help!

Secondary natural attacks are made at BAB-5. The Multiattack and Improved Multiattack feats can reduce that penalty, to -2 and 0 respectively. Your attack sequence would go
(Primary iterative attacks derived from BAB)/Claw/Claw/Bite/(all other iterative attacks derived from BAB.) They get the same bonuses and penalties everything else does; if something says it applies a penalty to 'all attacks you make' (eg, Snap Kick again), then the natural weapons get that penalty too.

Note: In order to make a natural weapon attack, you cannot be using the limb it occupies for anything else. If you are using your hands to make your Unarmed Strikes (which you must be, in order for the Gauntlets to do anything), you cannot also make Claw attacks with those hands in the same round.

[Keld Denar]

4) I still don't have any idea how my claw/claw/bite natural weapons work into anything! Help!

Natural Weapons and You: A mini-guide. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0) Co-written by me.

Note: If you are using Flurry of Blows, you can not include natural weapons. Otherwise, go wild!

[McToomin]

Thanks everyone, this has all been super-helpful! My only questions remaining deal with Battle Jump and Flying Kick. Can anyone help me out, and then I promise I'll let the topic die. :P


2) For my fourth non-Swordsage class I'm taking Warlock with the Spiderwalk least invocation, giving me 24 hour spider climb (at least according to its description "You can grant yourself the ability to spider climb (as the spell) with a duration of 24 hours.").

I say that because I'm trying to combine it with Battle Jump, but am becoming confused.

My idea was to be able to climb up on a wall (possibly invisibly or otherwise unnoticed, haven't gotten that far), and then fling myself at the enemy. Since it's a charge, I gain my pounce full attack sequence right? And then everything that does connect gets doubled ("If you hit, you can choose either to deal double damage with a melee weapon or natural attack, or to attempt a trip attack.")? I'm a little fuzzy because it's specifying a single attack, but that's because that's what normally happens at the end of a charge. But with a pounce (using my natural weapons, or manufactured, it doesn't matter), I get my full attack, and then does that get doubled?

3) What about Flying Kick?

"When fighting unarmed and using the charge action, you deal an extra 1d12 points of damage with your unarmed attack."

So does that mean that, since I get my full attack for a charge, I get an extra 1d12 for each attack that connects?

[Keld Denar]

2) Yes. It works just like you described. You get all of your attacks, and each one is double.

3) Yes. Each hit would get it, since nothing states that it doesn't. Its variable damage, though, so it wouldn't get multiplied by Battle Jump.

So if your UAS damage was 1d4+2, and you Battle Jumped on a foe, you'd deal 2d4+4+1d12 damage on each hit.

[ericgrau]

I'd drop rapid shot and snap kick, at least on full attacks. The -2 penalty to 8+ other attacks isn't worth one extra low damage hit. Your number of total hits will probably go down in fact, even ignoring the lower damage of these two attacks. Or maybe trip too as said. Another option to boost attack bonus would be potions of heroism, but you can't afford those until later. Early on you need to ask the party caster.

vs 32 AC:
23 x 6 = 60% x 6 = 3.6 hits
18 x 2 = 35% x 2 = 0.7 hits
13 x 1 = 10% x 1 = 0.1 hits
= 4.4 hits total out of 9 attacks

w/o rapid shot and snap kick:
27 x 5 = 80% x 5 = 4 hits
22 x 1 = 55% x 1 = 0.55 hits
17 x 1 = 30% x 1 = 0.3 hits
= 4.85 hits total out of 7 attacks

[Psyren]

I'm with Keld on the weapon issue, it seems pretty plain to me that the Speed property is similar to the Speed property.

[Coidzor]

Personman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026)made a thread dedicated to getting extra attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595) as well.

[LaughingRogue]

I'm with Keld on the weapon issue, it seems pretty plain to me that the Speed property is similar to the Speed property.

He's rarely wrong --- I tend to side with him when i'm unsure.

[Keld Denar]

Is that a fan club I detect? Sweet! :P

[kulosle]

Your BAB isn't equal to what's presented on the class table. What's listed there is how much you add to your current BAB. So if your level 18 Swordsage had +13/+8/+3, and then took a single level of Monk, said Swordsage would add +0 BAB. This means that a Swordsage18 and a Swordsage18 / Monk1 have equal BAB scores. Extending that, your second level of Monk (making Swordsage18 / Monk 2), would add +1, as listed on the Monk's class table. So a Swordsage18 / Monk2 would have +14/+9/+5.


there is an alternate option in the UA that talks about each level still adds to you BAB each level of monk/swordsage adds 3/4 so at level 2 its actually 1 1/2 and at 18 levels of sword sage is actually 13 1/2. so with this it would have a 15 BAB