[PF] How can I make a monk good?

[Drelua]

First, I've heard there are archetypes that can bring monks up a tier. Other than hungry ghost, which are these? I'm mostly curious about UC's martial artist and flowing monk. I'd also like to know which monk weapons and feats are good, particularly the combat styles. The snake and panther styles are all that seem worthwhile to me, but I'm probably wrong about that. I've always liked monks from an RP perspective, but I haven't played one in a long time for obvious reasons. Oh, and since I know it'll come up eventually, don't mention swordsage, :smallwink: I never really liked ToB.

Any advice?

[Tetrasodium]

First, I've heard there are archetypes that can bring monks up a tier. Other than hungry ghost, which are these? I'm mostly curious about UC's martial artist and flowing monk. I'd also like to know which monk weapons and feats are good, particularly the combat styles. The snake and panther styles are all that seem worthwhile to me, but I'm probably wrong about that. I've always liked monks from an RP perspective, but I haven't played one in a long time for obvious reasons. Oh, and since I know it'll come up eventually, don't mention swordsage, :smallwink: I never really liked ToB.

Any advice?

Pathfinder's monk, advanced player's guide, & ultimate combat add a lot of (potentially)useful monk options & new stuff... Never having had any real interest in monks, I didn't really look into them too much or give them any real thought when I skimmed over them

[Starbuck_II]

First, I've heard there are archetypes that can bring monks up a tier. Other than hungry ghost, which are these? I'm mostly curious about UC's martial artist and flowing monk. I'd also like to know which monk weapons and feats are good, particularly the combat styles. The snake and panther styles are all that seem worthwhile to me, but I'm probably wrong about that. I've always liked monks from an RP perspective, but I haven't played one in a long time for obvious reasons. Oh, and since I know it'll come up eventually, don't mention swordsage, :smallwink: I never really liked ToB.

Any advice?

1) Quigong trades monk abilities to cast spells (1 spell per ability traded off a list) examples Barkskin, Air Walk, Swift action Cone of Cold, Blood Crow Strike (1/2 fire, 12/ untyped), etc.
Spells are better than most class features: plus, you choose which are class features traded unlike most archetypes.
2) Styles:
a. For a dip Tiger Style + Tiger pounce is good for any melee using Power Attack (no hit penalty, just an AC one).
b. For a Str based Monk, Dragon Ferocity gives 1.5 Str to all unarmed and 2x Str for 1st unarmed each rd.

[jguy]

Could you tell me what book each of those examples are in Starbuck?

[Curious]

(Hungry Ghost, Qinggong) Monk. Take the first three 'Dimensional' feats from Ultimate Combat. Wield duel Kukris with the 'Guided' property, and replace either 'Quivering Palm' or 'Tongue of the Sun and Moon' with the Cold Ice Strike ki ability. You can now move and full attack, gain extra attacks from the ki pool, do not require Str for damage or to hit, and use a 15d6 line of cold attack as a swift action, as well as regaining ki points whenever you kill or crit an opponent. Not on a Unarmed Swordsages level perhaps, but pretty solid.

All of this is available for free on the PFSRD, just look it up.

[Drelua]

(Hungry Ghost, Qinggong) Monk. Take the first three 'Dimensional' feats from Ultimate Combat. Wield duel Kukris with the 'Guided' property, and replace either 'Quivering Palm' or 'Tongue of the Sun and Moon' with the Cold Ice Strike ki ability. You can now move and full attack, gain extra attacks from the ki pool, do not require Str for damage or to hit, and use a 15d6 line of cold attack as a swift action, as well as regaining ki points whenever you kill or crit an opponent. Not on a Unarmed Swordsages level perhaps, but pretty solid.

All of this is available for free on the PFSRD, just look it up.

That does sound pretty good, and I've certainly got no problem dropping Tongue of the Sun and Moon. I'd drop it for free. I just looked at Qinggong monk, and I was thinking of going with Dhampir and taking Blood Crow Strike then quicken spell-like ability for 2 full attacks per round 3/day. Is that a good idea? Thanks for the advice, but what about low levels? None of that works until level 12. I was also considering these mindblade (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/mind-blade-feats) feats. Some of them are specifically geared towards monks, one doing the same thing as the guided property, but it seems like it might be too high of a feat tax. Thoughts on that?

[Curious]

That does sound pretty good, and I've certainly got no problem dropping Tongue of the Sun and Moon. I'd drop it for free. I just looked at Qinggong monk, and I was thinking of going with Dhampir and taking Blood Crow Strike then quicken spell-like ability for 2 full attacks per round 3/day. Is that a good idea? Thanks for the advice, but what about low levels? None of that works until level 12. I was also considering these mindblade (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/mind-blade-feats) feats. Some of them are specifically geared towards monks, one doing the same thing as the guided property, but it seems like it might be too high of a feat tax. Thoughts on that?

I'm not going to comment on the Mind-blade feats, as Psionics is not my forte (Psyren! This is your cue!), but here are my thoughts on the other things you mentioned.
I'm not sure Quicken spell would work on Blood Crow Strike, seeing as you don't actually have spell slots.
Not sure why you would want to be a Dhampir, since it boosts stats you don't need, penalizes ones you do, and provides abilities that aren't all that great for your class. A better race would be Ophiduan (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/ophiduan), which is a Psionic race which gives you lots of goodies.

[Drelua]

I'm not going to comment on the Mind-blade feats, as Psionics is not my forte (Psyren! This is your cue!), but here are my thoughts on the other things you mentioned.
I'm not sure Quicken spell would work on Blood Crow Strike, seeing as you don't actually have spell slots.
Not sure why you would want to be a Dhampir, since it boosts stats you don't need, penalizes ones you do, and provides abilities that aren't all that great for your class. A better race would be Ophiduan (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/ophiduan), which is a Psionic race which gives you lots of goodies.

I know the dhampir is a fairly weak race for this, but I really like the fluff, especially when combined with hungry ghost monk and blood crow strike. Oh, and my mistake about quicken spell. I meant quicken spell-like ability. Any way, for the sake of argument, let's say I'm using a good race. I can get away with something like dhampir in my group, where optimization is practically non-existent.

[Curious]

I know the dhampir is a fairly weak race for this, but I really like the fluff, especially when combined with hungry ghost monk and blood crow strike. Oh, and my mistake about quicken spell. I meant quicken spell-like ability. Any way, for the sake of argument, let's say I'm using a good race. I can get away with something like dhampir in my group, where optimization is practically non-existent.

I'm afraid you've got me there; I have no idea where you would get a Quicken spell-like ability. If you found one, then yeah, that would work awesomely.

And I'll give you flavor reasons; the Hungry Ghost Monk fits Dhampir like a glove.

[Drelua]

Quicken Spell-Like Ability (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/quicken-spell-like-ability)
From the bestiary. I could drop Tongue of the Sun and Moon and Timeless Body at level 17 for blood crow strike and cold ice strike and take quicken spell-like ability. That sounds great once I get up there, but I still have nothing for low levels except a possible combat style. An item of accelerate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power/effect-words/accelerate) for 48k(?) later on with Combat Reflexes and Panther Style, maybe Dodge and Mobility, for all the AoOs. Still, until I can get that item I guess I wouldn't be doing any better than a typical monk.

[Curious]

Quicken Spell-Like Ability (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/quicken-spell-like-ability)
From the bestiary. I could drop Tongue of the Sun and Moon and Timeless Body at level 17 for blood crow strike and cold ice strike and take quicken spell-like ability. That sounds great once I get up there, but I still have nothing for low levels except a possible combat style. An item of accelerate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power/effect-words/accelerate) for 48k(?) later on with Combat Reflexes and Panther Style, maybe Dodge and Mobility, for all the AoOs. Still, until I can get that item I guess I wouldn't be doing any better than a typical monk.

Hm, I never considered using an item of Accelerate. It's a good idea. The only other way of getting a full-attack on the move is to get the first three Dimensional feats. Dimensional Agility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-agility), Dimensional Assault (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-assault), and Dimensional Dervish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-dervish).

For style feats, Tiger or Panther seems good, as would Crane or maybe Snake. However, you are basically correct; until the higher levels, you aren't much better than a regular Monk.

EDIT: Oh yeah, the Quicken ability looks good. Definitely useful for an occasional boost.

[Drelua]

Okay, so that seems to be a pretty good mid-to-high level build, but I was mostly hoping for a list of what's good and what's not for monks. Which archetypes, feat combinations, etc. I can choose to get a few different ways to make monks decent. Maybe Master Craftsman and Craft Wondrous Item to get easier access to Boots of Accelerate and an Amulet of Mighty Fists with guided on it? Oh, and my DM loves monks so he made an Amulet of Mighty Fists cost the same as a typical magic weapon, since monks can flurry with a single monk weapon anyway.