do forgive my ignorance... (cleric question)

[big teej]

what exactly is divine metamagic?
where can it be found?
how does it work?

I do not recall seeing the term in my books.... which is more than likely a failed spot roll, but whatever. :smalltongue:

[tyckspoon]

Feat, Complete Divine. Does two things:
Allows you to apply a metamagic feat to a spell on the fly and
Allows you to pay for the slot adjustment of that metamagic with Turn Undead uses instead of spell levels.

Turn Undead attempts being much cheaper and easier to come by than spell levels, this is a very efficient way to make use of expensive metamagics like Quicken, Twin, and most notoriously Persist.

[Jude_H]

A feat in Complete Divine. It lets you fuel metamagic feats with turn undead attempts instead of elevated spell slots.

Unlike certain other approaches to metamagic negation (metamagic song, metamagic spell trigger), it is uncapped in its final spell level, allowing 5th level characters to cast spell effects that would normally use 9th level spell slots.

Edit: Ninjaed. Just so this post isn't completely obsolete, DMM is often knee-jerk banned, but it's not always unreasonable. DMM:Rapid Spell, for instance, allows summoning clerics to do their main schtick several times/day without waving a neon "INTERRUPT ME" sign, and DMM:Sculpt can give a battlefield control-focused cleric few free uses of a fun (but not overwhelming) flexibility option.

[big teej]

ah, no wonder I've never seen it, I don't have complete divine yet.

is there a 3.0 version in Defender's of the Faith?

[erikun]

It's been awhile since I looked at the 3.0e books, but I don't think so. I distinctly remember being surprised by it when I heard about it from the new 3.5e books.

And while it doesn't have to be overpowering, a lot of the biggest discussion about it ends up being so. DMM Still Spell or DMM Extend Spell are hardly game-breaking and really quite reasonable. DMM Persistent Righteous Might for a full-day buff equal to an 11th level spell slot at 9th level, when you first get the spell, is perhaps on the other end of the spectrum.

[Flickerdart]

It only appears in Complete Divine.

[holywhippet]

The real abuse with divine metamagic comes from an item in Libris Mortis - the Nightstick. Rather than being an item for subduing criminals, this magical item gives you an extra 4 turn undead powers per day. It only costs 7500 gold (or whatever it costs to make one). There's nothing in the description to prevent you from having multiple nightsticks which will let you apply a whole lot of divine metamagic.

[big teej]

soooo new question to further expose my ignorance...


can divine casters take normal metamagic feats? :smallconfused:

[Nohwl]

yes. a cleric can use extend spell, quicken spell, invisible spell, and all the other metamagic feats just like a wizard.

[Aracor]

Not only can they, they MUST to take DMM. DMM has a pre-requisite of the metamagic feat that you want to take DMM for. So if you want DMM persist, you need to take extend spell, persist spell, and then DMM: Persist.

[NNescio]

soooo new question to further expose my ignorance...


can divine casters take normal metamagic feats? :smallconfused:

Yes. DMM just allows you to mitigate the metamagic costs with a single, specific type of metamagic feat that you already have.


Metamagic Feats

As a spellcaster’s knowledge of magic grows, she can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the ways in which the spells were originally designed or learned. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, at least it is possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.

Wizards and Divine Spellcasters
Wizards and divine spellcasters must prepare their spells in advance. During preparation, the character chooses which spells to prepare with metamagic feats (and thus which ones take up higher-level spell slots than normal).

Edit: (Note that specific trumps general in the case of spontaneous divine casters, which are lacking in core.)

[big teej]

Not only can they, they MUST to take DMM. DMM has a pre-requisite of the metamagic feat that you want to take DMM for. So if you want DMM persist, you need to take extend spell, persist spell, and then DMM: Persist.

so.... do you have to take Divine metamagic multiple times?

kinda like weapon focus?

[NNescio]

so.... do you have to take Divine metamagic multiple times?

kinda like weapon focus?

For each metamagic feat that you want to apply DMM mitigation to, yes.


... Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time you take this feat choose a different metamagic feat to which to apply it.

[Nohwl]

so.... do you have to take Divine metamagic multiple times?

kinda like weapon focus?

yes, you have to take it for every metamagic feat you want to apply it to, but without nightstick stacking, you don't want to take the feat too often, otherwise you won't have enough turn attempts for everything you want. for example, dmm persist is 7 turn attempts, so something like dmm extend (2 turn attempts) would be better than dmm quicken (5 turn attempts).

[Hiro Protagonest]

yes, you have to take it for every metamagic feat you want to apply it to, but without nightstick stacking, you don't want to take the feat too often, otherwise you won't have enough turn attempts for everything you want. for example, dmm persist is 7 turn attempts, so something like dmm extend (2 turn attempts) would be better than dmm quicken (5 turn attempts).

You're one turn attempt too many for persist and extend.

[dextercorvia]

You're one turn attempt too many for persist and extend.

No, he's right. DMM requires Spell level adjustment +1 turning attempts. The Naenhoon only requires the exact amount.

[big teej]

well..... this is a rather helpful thread:smallbiggrin: