magic cant do it??....

[tacho101]

im fully aware of the melee cant have nice things that is 3.5, but in a debate with myself (yes i does that while thinking), is there a useful class feature or ability that is melee only that cant be done via magic?

disclaimer: im aware of tob and that was a step in the right direction, but for the many of us that found it unwelcome when we brought it to the attention of our dm, i would like this discussion to not include it for that purpose.

(in retrospect, the question itself seems foolish because magic is magic >.<)

[Elric VIII]

d10 HD.

They can get d4, d6, d8, and d12 (via undeath) but I have yet to see a full caster with a d10.

[sreservoir]

there are some psionics-advancing prcs which have d10 hd. I think they all lose CL, though.

[Eldariel]

You mean mundane skills? 'cause melee is an awfully specific subset of mundane skills while magic is a broad umbrella. But yes, mundane skills are not restricted by anything but your endurance (which is not modeled in the game, really) while magic generally "runs out" when used too much. So in a sense mundane skills can "outlast" magic in the short term.

That and worlds with magic tend to have areas where magic works poorly or does not function at all (Forgotten Realms is the ur-example of this) where mundane skills are of course highlighted because, y'know, magic can't do anything (usually) in those areas.


But no, as defined in most D&D worlds magic can do everything so there's no territory where you'd rather need mundane skills (though learning to do stuff kinda sorta fits; you can't actually give yourself XP with some spell or gain more class levels or such - you can replicate most of the benefits at least to some degree though).

[zimmerwald1915]

Abjurant Champion is a full-casting prestige class with d10 HD.

[hobbitkniver]

I have a friend who hates magic and has never and will never play a caster of any sort because he hates the roleplay of it. I think its a lot more interesting to imagine a guy cutting down 10 orcs with a huge sword then a wizard yawning and tossing a fireball.

[tacho101]

Eldariel: thanks for clearing up and expanding on my question, i was sort just looking into mundane melee and so on for things that could not be replicated by the all mighty magic. and by the few posts i see that as far as mechanics and D&D class features, the best so far to pop up was a d10 hit-die

mundane/melee in and out of combat abilities and or skills vs magic

is there something that magic can not accomplish? i feel thats a little more specific.

(this is eventually leading to a build that can do something magic cant.....hopefully)

as far as psionics go, the judge is still out on it, but would you all consider it casterish or not (have not played one)

[Urpriest]

Stealth. True Seeing and the like means that you need ranks in Move Silently and Hide to be stealthy in high-op situations. If you can stack enough bonuses you can do so reliably without magic, since Spot is harder to boost than Hide.

[maximus25]

Can magic give you evasion or improved evasion? Or sneak attack?

[Zaq]

Can magic give you evasion or improved evasion? Or sneak attack?

Yes, maybe, and yes.


as far as psionics go, the judge is still out on it, but would you all consider it casterish or not (have not played one)

Psionics is totally just magic. It's got its differences, yes, but the similarities far, FAR outweigh the differences.

[Tvtyrant]

Can magic give you evasion or improved evasion? Or sneak attack?

There are two spells that grant you reflex saves against melee attacks, which would make evasion the greatest ability ever.

[tyckspoon]

Stealth. True Seeing and the like means that you need ranks in Move Silently and Hide to be stealthy in high-op situations. If you can stack enough bonuses you can do so reliably without magic, since Spot is harder to boost than Hide.

See, I would have said this too.. but Superior Invisibility, Ghostform, and Etherealness still win- Superior Invis is basically detectable *only* by True Seeing, Ghostform lets you hide in the walls or in the floors, Etherealness lets you hide in another plane entirely..

If you're really paranoid about it, Superior Invis + Invisible Obscuring Mist or other fogs. If you do run into True Seeing, they just see the fog instead.

(I will admit that takes some pretty heavy-duty magic, and a well constructed skill-based stealth character can be undetectable to most things with many fewer levels.)

[Drachasor]

d10 HD.

They can get d4, d6, d8, and d12 (via undeath) but I have yet to see a full caster with a d10.

They do a lot better with Con boosts.


Stealth. True Seeing and the like means that you need ranks in Move Silently and Hide to be stealthy in high-op situations. If you can stack enough bonuses you can do so reliably without magic, since Spot is harder to boost than Hide.

There are tons of ways to get stealth bonuses via magic that don't involve illusions. Transmutation is the king of this. Granted though, the higher in level you go the harder it is to make up for missing ranks. It's quite easy to get a +20 bonus to your checks well before 10th level though. Casters have tons of ways of negating stealth using magic wards and the like as well.

[Jude_H]

No.

And if there is an obscure ability that hasn't been covered by printed spells (and which is inaccessible through Magic Jar, Heroics, Improvisation/Divine Insight/Moment of Prescience, et al), there is independent research.

[Acanous]

Whirling frenzy Rage Variant. I'm 89% sure there is no spell for this, and the spell "Rage" grants the regular kind.

[TroubleBrewing]

Whirling frenzy Rage Variant. I'm 89% sure there is no spell for this, and the spell "Rage" grants the regular kind.

Haste + Bull's Strength. Boom goes the dynamite. :smalltongue:

[deuxhero]

d10 HD.

They can get d4, d6, d8, and d12 (via undeath) but I have yet to see a full caster with a d10.

Magical beasts have d10 HD :)

[Drachasor]

Haste + Bull's Strength. Boom goes the dynamite. :smalltongue:

Or Polymorph to a Hydra.

[TroubleBrewing]

Sure, but my way comes online 2 levels earlier. :smalltongue:

[Drachasor]

Sure, but my way comes online 2 levels earlier. :smalltongue:

It's not a competition. The point is that magic has several dozen ways to ruin one's day with physical damage if that's the desire.

[peacenlove]

d10 HD.

They can get d4, d6, d8, and d12 (via undeath) but I have yet to see a full caster with a d10.

Green star junkies adepts become constructs, so if they had any racial HD they would become d10. Then again the term "full caster" applies only loosely to them :smalltongue:

[TroubleBrewing]

It's not a competition. The point is that magic has several dozen ways to ruin one's day with physical damage if that's the desire.

Oh, I was kidding. That was sort of my point, too.

[Ravens_cry]

It can't directly penetrate a mundane use of the Disguise skill, though things that enhance skill checks will help. Same with Forgery. Even better, Forgery is only detected with Forgery, which isn't a class skill for any of the Core full casters, though a wizards likely massive Int bonus will likely help.

[TroubleBrewing]

Forgery being opposed by Forgery is HILARIOUS. With 5 ranks, you can pretty much get any document you'd ever need in a game with the skill. Need a pass to get into the city? Forge one. Guards are not trained in it, because most of the time they're Fighters and Warriors, with the occasional Paladin.

[Eldan]

Well, in the widest sense, there are spells that give a bonus on any skill check. Those would help with forgery or disguises.

[CTrees]

In re: beating disguise and stealth skills-Detect Thoughts. Stealth is actually very easy to overcome - Daylight, give yourself scent, tremorsense, etc. Whatever. Disguise? Suggestion of "tell me who you really are" or similar. Works for forgery, too.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Stealth. True Seeing and the like means that you need ranks in Move Silently and Hide to be stealthy in high-op situations. If you can stack enough bonuses you can do so reliably without magic, since Spot is harder to boost than Hide.

Arcane Trickster would disagree with this. Furthermore, a Warlock with Darkness and Devil's Sight and a feat can get HiPS quicker than a mundane character can.

In short, anything mundane can do, magic can do better, quicker, and can also counter it.

[B!shop]

Anti-magic field survivability?

Or every case where magic is suppressed or depleted (like after a challenging day)?

[Eldan]

Can be worked around in some trickery. Some people even argue that Antimagic Fields are worse for the mundanes than for the caster, since they lose their equipment, while some spells still work. Endless spell loops are possible with extreme cheese.

[CTrees]

Antimagic field? Greater force orb from outside. Gate in some smashy outsider. Most melee is much worse off; anti-magic only limits a catser's options, not remove them.

[Morph Bark]

In re: beating disguise and stealth skills-Detect Thoughts. Stealth is actually very easy to overcome - Daylight, give yourself scent, tremorsense, etc. Whatever.

Darkstalker. :smallamused:

[Curmudgeon]

See, I would have said this too.. but Superior Invisibility, Ghostform, and Etherealness still win- Superior Invis is basically detectable *only* by True Seeing
... or a mundane Spot check (since Spot has the same chance vs. any kind of invisibility, "superior" or not), or low-paid urchins in the rafters with flour sifters. The falling flour coats the character with Superior Invisibility (the character's invisible; the flour isn't), and also dusts the floor so even if they brush off the coat of flour, footprints are still easy to follow.

[TroubleBrewing]

Magic can do flour, too. Magic has Glitterdust! Magic's flour is sparkly and blinds you, which means it's better than REAL flour by like a hundred times.

[Gwendol]

Dust of sneezing and choking?

[Calimehter]

But can you make delicious cupcakes using Glitterdust?

(Heh, now I kind of want to try IC - everyone gets one with sparkles!!)

--------------------

RoD allows you to use Decipher Script to encrypt and decrypt messages. Since cryptography =/= language per se, one would assume that Comprehend Languages and the like can't solve a ciphered message. So does that count as somthing that magic cannot do?

[Curmudgeon]

Magic can do flour, too. Magic has Glitterdust! Magic's flour is sparkly and blinds you, which means it's better than REAL flour by like a hundred times.
Glitterdust does nothing against Superior Invisibility, so magic fails. Flour still works.

[HappyBlanket]

Glitterdust does nothing against Superior Invisibility, so magic fails. Flour still works.

But that still doesn't show how a melee-only character can do something a caster can't. A caster can hire a bunch of people to sift flour just as well as a melee character can... Actually, a caster can probably do it better, with Unseen Servant, buffs to Diplomacy or Bluff, Enchantment spells, etc.

[TroubleBrewing]

Glitterdust does nothing against Superior Invisibility, so magic fails. Flour still works.

Damn, hadn't thought of that.

[erikun]

So, now comes the real question. Is there anything that magic can do that flour cannot?

[Devmaar]

I don't believe magic can get a Dungeoncrasher effect

EDIT: Or talk to mindless creatures

[erikun]

Or talk to mindless creatures
Stone Tell, Speak with Dead, Speak with Plants, Command Undead, Converse with Monk
:smalltongue:

[Tiki Snakes]

I don't believe magic can get a Dungeoncrasher effect

EDIT: Or talk to mindless creatures

Plants aren't mindless creatures? :smallsmile:

[Eldan]

I don't believe magic can get a Dungeoncrasher effect


Hurling someone into a wall with Telekinesis is similar to Dungeoncrashing.

[CTrees]

Mundane characters can talk to mindless creatures?

Well, of course they can, but they can get responses back, other than maybe biting?

EDIT: On detecting stealth, casters still have more/better options than non-casters. They *can* boost spot (even through simple expedients like increasing their stats), making them potentially better than their mundane counterparts, and there's divination - Contact Other Plane and the like if we're getting higher end. The things which protect against magic detection (Darkstalker, etc.) don't give mundane characters any extra ways to find the stealthed creature. On being stealthy... be ethereal, invisible, and silent, and then just walk through the walls/floor/ceiling. Or just teleport past whatever you're trying to sneak past. Or Time Stop and walk past - if the flour being sifted down is stuck in midair, it's not going to find your invisibility. Also, a simple Silence spell will stop any listen checks a whole lot more reliably than a high Move Silently bonus.

[tacho101]

this is rather depressing, :/ oh wells, magic is magic, and therefore magic so how could magic not do it?

in any case thanks to everybody for this brainstorm

[Jude_H]

Magicians have skill boosters, stat boosters, familiars, magic jar and polymorph, with no cap on the number of skillful forms/bonuses they can choose to temporarily specialize in. I'm not sure how skills are going to make a case for noncasters, even if spells fail to wholly obsolete the skillful methods.

[Big Fau]

I think the only things spells can't do is shape (specifically) a soulmeld or bind a vestige, but there are PrCs for both.


Granted, they can pretty much duplicate the effects anyway, but they can't actually shape one.

[Acanous]

Whirling Frenzy stacks with haste though, doesn't it? I thought it did.
either way, Whirling Frenzy, you get the bonuses at level 1. Haste is a lv 3 spell, and Bull's Strength is lv 2, meaning that won't come online until minimum lv 5, and won't last as long, either.

also, it's 2 short-duration spells against an immediate ability. Action-economy wise, the WF Barbarian does it better, up until the caster gets both Quicken AND Celerity. Then the caster's burning 3 spells of significant level to duplicate one ability, and they need a feat and something to grant immunity to stun, as well.

Maybe this shouldn't be "What can melee do that magic can't" but "what can melee do faster, easier, and earlier than magic"

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think the only things spells can't do is shape (specifically) a soulmeld or bind a vestige, but there are PrCs for both.


Granted, they can pretty much duplicate the effects anyway, but they can't actually shape one.

Not magic per se; but there are the Open Psionic Chakra powers (or something like that, can't remember the exact name.) that allows you to bind a souldmeld to a chakra bind even if you don't normally have it, so a psion (or caster with limited or normal wish duplicating the power) can bind a souldmeld they have through Shape Souldmeld fea.

[Big Fau]

Not magic per se; but there are the Open Psionic Chakra powers (or something like that, can't remember the exact name.) that allows you to bind a souldmeld to a chakra bind even if you don't normally have it, so a psion (or caster with limited or normal wish duplicating the power) can bind a souldmeld they have through Shape Souldmeld fea.

Well, that isn't the same as shaping it.

[Devmaar]

Stone Tell, Speak with Dead, Speak with Plants, Command Undead, Converse with Monk
:smalltongue:


Plants aren't mindless creatures? :smallsmile:

Stones, corpses and plants (not Plant creatures) are objects not creatures.


Mundane characters can talk to mindless creatures?

From SRD

A monk of 17th level or higher can speak with any living creature.


Hurling someone into a wall with Telekinesis is similar to Dungeoncrashing.

True

[DiBastet]

Deathless Frenzy?

Maybe there is something that lasts equal...

[Devmaar]

Deathless Frenzy?

Maybe there is something that lasts equal...

Delay Death+Beastland's Ferocity

[noparlpf]

Forgery being opposed by Forgery is HILARIOUS. With 5 ranks, you can pretty much get any document you'd ever need in a game with the skill. Need a pass to get into the city? Forge one. Guards are not trained in it, because most of the time they're Fighters and Warriors, with the occasional Paladin.

I make my guards UA Warriors with Forgery as a class skill. That started after I realised that Forgery was opposed by Forgery and that most classes don't get it as a class skill.

On topic: I don't think there's much of anything that magic can't do. That's the point of magic. I bet a wizard could even research a spell that could explain magnets. (Though my physics teacher last year told us that magnetism was magic...)

[CTrees]

Good point on the Monk's ability to talk with mindless creatures... I'm thinking, say... a swarm of spiders - that's mindless and not an object, right? I really don't know of a spell which allows that. Hrm.

[Tyndmyr]

In re: beating disguise and stealth skills-Detect Thoughts. Stealth is actually very easy to overcome - Daylight, give yourself scent, tremorsense, etc. Whatever. Disguise? Suggestion of "tell me who you really are" or similar. Works for forgery, too.

Darkstalker is a legit contender.

Ways to entirely avoid non-visual methods of detection are hard to come by, and tbe Dark template/Darkstalker Feat likely have at least one method not duplicated by magic.

[Dragonsoul]

Mundanes can get higher SR (I think)

Karsite(Race from Tomb of Magic)+ Forsaker(Masters of the Wild) 10+Exalted Spell Resistance=SR 54, This requires you to not have magic to work too.

Also Mettle is tricky for a Caster

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Stealth. True Seeing and the like means that you need ranks in Move Silently and Hide to be stealthy in high-op situations. If you can stack enough bonuses you can do so reliably without magic, since Spot is harder to boost than Hide.

Stealth is just layering on more levels of obfuscation. An unseen seer focusing on magic first can easily be better at hiding and finding than a mundane rogue (one even optimized for skills, too, sadly). Of course, having the wizard spell list and key divination spells from all other lists is a lot like cheating in sense that you use tactical nukes in battleship but the other side can't.


Anti-magic field survivability?

Or every case where magic is suppressed or depleted (like after a challenging day)?

Funny thing: Invoke magic is a 9th level evocation spell that works in an AMF and lets you cast another spell in an AMF. Thus, you wizard your way out of an AMF while the originator of the AMF sits there and watches, probably with a sad look on his face.


Darkstalker. :smallamused:

If we open up psionics (or even just having an improved familiar), you get either synesthesia (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm) or a radar dish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/pseudodragon.htm). The latter does require Mindsight on the little bugger, but it's magic, I ain't have to explain carp.

EDIT:

Mundanes can get higher SR (I think)

Karsite(Race from Tomb of Magic)+ Forsaker(Masters of the Wild) 10+Exalted Spell Resistance=SR 54, This requires you to not have magic to work too.

Also Mettle is tricky for a Caster

Sadly, all of those resources on the SR get stopped by one school of magic. Either because summoned monsters, fake acid, or called monsters. Mettle is doable, but it requires a level 1 or 2 dip in a PrC to get it that provides but does not advance casting.:smalltongue:

EDIT2: Also, spell resistance is a core spell. Not a good core spell, but it is an option.

[Morph Bark]

I think the only things spells can't do is shape (specifically) a soulmeld or bind a vestige, but there are PrCs for both.


Granted, they can pretty much duplicate the effects anyway, but they can't actually shape one.

There are spells that grant feats. Though heroics only grants a Fighter feat, there might be other spells that do so. Hence, it might be better to say that they cannot bind soulmelds to the heart or soul chakras (unless they are epic, but epic magic can do anything with enough stuff). Also, binding vestiges of 4th level or higher.


Not magic per se; but there are the Open Psionic Chakra powers (or something like that, can't remember the exact name.) that allows you to bind a souldmeld to a chakra bind even if you don't normally have it, so a psion (or caster with limited or normal wish duplicating the power) can bind a souldmeld they have through Shape Souldmeld fea.

Wish cannot duplicate a psionic power as normal, but it might with the whole "it can do more but it might go wrong and it costs 5000 XP" gig.


Still though, psionics, incarnum, binding, shadowcasting and truenaming is all also magic. (And since martial maneuvers are called "blade magic", one could argue that they are too, but that's stretching it IMO.) However, spells are the ones where it gets all nuggets, balls-to-the-wall crazy.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Still though, psionics, incarnum, binding, shadowcasting and truenaming is all also magic. (And since martial maneuvers are called "blade magic", one could argue that they are too, but that's stretching it IMO.) However, spells are the ones where it gets all nuggets, balls-to-the-wall crazy.

To be fair, some of the crazier Theoretical Optimization tricks work with odd rulings on things like Time Hop. Sure, most of the practical nukes are in the domain of wizards, but psions still get a nuke-like device themselves for maybe half the occasions.

If we instead talk CO, well, magic is just by far and away easier. Even if you do have to use three different types of "magic" for it to happen.:smalltongue:

[Fable Wright]

Magic can't get Power Attack up to 4 points of damage per one point of BAB.

[Dragonsoul]

Sadly, all of those resources on the SR get stopped by one school of magic. Either because summoned monsters, fake acid, or called monsters. Mettle is doable, but it requires a level 1 or 2 dip in a PrC to get it that provides but does not advance casting.:smalltongue:

EDIT2: Also, spell resistance is a core spell. Not a good core spell, but it is an option.

Spell Resistance gives you SR 32, I said Magic can't get as high as Mundane not that it can't get it at all.
and yes I know you can ignore SR if you want to, but it is something Mundane can do that magic can't, which what was asked, Mundane can Handle Save:no, SR:Yes spells better.

[Kyuu Himura]

Melee can't get Power Attack up to 4 points of damage per one point of BAB.

Ruby/Diamond Nightmare Blade gets you 4:1 and 8:1 for a 2 handed weapon.

But, let's check non-ToB examples

Leap Attack + Battle Jump gets you 6:1 for a 2 handed weapon.

Frenzied Berserker gets you 4:1 exactly, it's actually explicit amongst their class features.

I think you mean "Magic can't get you 4:1 Power Attack Ratio"??

[tyckspoon]

Spell Resistance gives you SR 32, I said Magic can't get as high as Mundane not that it can't get it at all.
and yes I know you can ignore SR if you want to, but it is something Mundane can do that magic can't, which what was asked, Mundane can Handle Save:no, SR:Yes spells better.

Nah, you're just asking to optimize CL in addition to casting Spell Resistance. If you don't mind being an evil Cleric/Neutral Cleric using evil spells:

Bead of Karma at the start of the day (CL 24, if no other CL boosters are around.) Persistent Consumptive Field; fully charge off the field, you get +12 CL (and +24 Strength, but that's not too relevant right now.) Your bead of Karma is probably going to drop off before you actually want to cast Spell Resistance, so you'll be casting it with Divine Spell Power to get that +4 back. CL 36 generates an SR of 48 (add an Orange Ioun Stone for 49.) Ok, it's not as high as the Forsaker Karsite.. but it's very close in situations where Exalted Spell Resistance doesn't apply, and it doesn't require gimping yourself by being a Forsaker Karsite. (If you don't mind also gimping the Cleric a bit, it can be a Hierophant with 5 selections of Spell Power. 54 SR, and that's if you decide that Spell Power doesn't apply to the cap on Consumptive Field.)

[sreservoir]

anything that boosts cl for just abjuration or necromancy or [death] or [evil] works, too. there are three abjuration reserve feats and the purification domain; for necromancy, one reserve, abyss-bound soul, aerenal half-life, necromancy domain, and the bloodtouched rite. for death spells, one reserve feat. for evil, fiendish power and evil domain.

the reserves don't stack, but I think the others do.

then add adept spirit, divine spell power, elder giant magic, earth spell, and maybe domain focus, primitive caster, metamagic vigor.

take three levels of hierophant at the end of the build, maybe.

with CL 20, we have 42 SR after greater consumptive field. trying to beat 52? we only need a bonus of +7 to caster level. hierophant gets us +3 without any real loss. karma bead can fill in the other 4. elder giant magic gets us another +3. divine spell power gets another +4. CL is 30, for 57 SR before specializing in anything.

hell, go to shieldstone cavern and get +! on abjuration for a year.

[Dragonsoul]

...well Mundanes SR works in an antimagic Field :tongue:

but yeah,the problem is that every book "needed" something new for martial and Casters but while Martial could only every get what was there at the expense of something else(i.e. Feats) Caster could just add it to there spell list, combine that with designers thinking they had to make spells to counter casters weaknesses and....

[Devmaar]

Spell Resistance gives you SR 32, I said Magic can't get as high as Mundane not that it can't get it at all.
and yes I know you can ignore SR if you want to, but it is something Mundane can do that magic can't, which what was asked, Mundane can Handle Save:no, SR:Yes spells better.

With Diamond Mind melee has better saves too

[Dragonsoul]

...With Diamond mind and insane Multiclassing (Multiple Divine Grace's stacks right?)

[sreservoir]

relevant parts of diamond mind are a few fighter feats.

[Devmaar]

...With Diamond mind and insane Multiclassing (Multiple Divine Grace's stacks right?)

No but you can get the same effect under different names. Besides, Divine Grace doesn't apply to Diamond Mind saves

[Fable Wright]

I think you mean "Magic can't get you 4:1 Power Attack Ratio"??
Yes, yes I did. I was thinking of Frenzied Berserker, outside of ToB.

[Jude_H]

Does Bite of the WereX/Heroics(PA) + Polymorph (for dive or one of those powerful charge creatures) + Rhino's Rush count?

[Morph Bark]

Magic cannot create mundanely-created items. :smallwink:

[Claudius Maximus]

Isn't there an Unseen Crafter spell or something? If memory serves it makes a magical construct that proceeds to make items with regular craft checks. That might count.

[sreservoir]

feh, just bind efreeti to bind more efreeti to bind more efreeti to bind more efreeti to ... arrange themselves to make whatever you need.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yes, there is Unseen Crafter. Unseen crafter comes online FAR before you will be chain binding djinn and efreeti.

[Acanous]

Fabricate can also craft mundane items.

[Gavinfoxx]

Really, there are LOADS of ways to get infinite work done in D&D; the difficulty becomes getting infinite raw materials of useful types to work with.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212769

I've already made a thread about that topic!

[druid91]

Magic can't allow you to fire technological laser-guns at people.

Only psionics can do that.

[sreservoir]

Fabricate can also craft mundane items.

I don't think that counts as mundanely-created.

[tyckspoon]

I don't think that counts as mundanely-created.

If you're defining mundanely-created as 'no magic anywhere', sure, but that's kind of a cheap answer. Magic does offer many ways to make things that are indistinguishable from stuff made with a Craft skill- a Fabricated object is permanent and detects as non-magical and works just the same as if you had spent two weeks Crafting it. It just got put together faster/

[sreservoir]

really, it's more or less just "magic can't be non-magical."

although, can it? because that would be awesome. I know lilitu get cleric spells (ex), but only up to 5ths. are there any others?

[MightyPirate]

really, it's more or less just "magic can't be non-magical."

although, can it? because that would be awesome. I know lilitu get cleric spells (ex), but only up to 5ths. are there any others?

Now that you mention it . . . (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6543.0;wa)

[sreservoir]

Now that you mention it . . . (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6543.0;wa)

but those aren't even supernatural! no true magic would be non-magical!

[MightyPirate]

but those aren't even supernatural! no true magic would be non-magical!

True, but if your bluff is high enough no one will believe it's not butter.