[PF] Ranger Combat Styles

[TurtleKing]

Ok I have a pbp game I am making a Ranger for and thinking of either the Skirmisher or Trapper. If those archtypes are relevant let me know in regards to the combat styles. Been thinking of a Elf Switch Hitter, Halfling Outrider, or a Ratkin Naturalist (natural weapons).

The Switch Hitter is a Ranger that uses the Combat Style for the ranged side while selecting feats to fight in melee with a 2h. Overall the best option between the 2 main combat styles. Question is how viable is the Switch Hitter as an Elf plus is there anything else I should know?

The Halfling Outrider uses the Mounted combat style. Pass that I am large inexperienced with mounted combat. So what do I need to know to pull this off as mounted melee or ranged?

The Ratkin Naturalist uses the natural weapons combat style. Like the mounted style I am inexperienced in this type of melee. So how should I build the Ranger this way?

While at this I am comparing them to determine which one I should go for though the Ratkin Naturalist does look apealing.

[Engine]

The Switch Hitter is a Ranger that uses the Combat Style for the ranged side while selecting feats to fight in melee with a 2h. Overall the best option between the 2 main combat styles. Question is how viable is the Switch Hitter as an Elf plus is there anything else I should know?

First, do you use point buy? How many points do you have?
Anyway the elf seems a moderately good choice for a Switch Hitter, but not great. Dexterity's your secondary stat, Intelligence's nice for skill points. Unfortunately the Constitution penalty hurts because you'll wade into melee and no bonus in your primary stat (Strength) hurts a lot more especially at low levels.
Elves are better with the Archery Style, no doubt.

[Baroncognito]

Well, with an Elven Curve Blade (which being an Elf would give him proficiency with) he'd be able to use Weapon Finesse with a two handed weapon. Given that he's allowed to use Ratkin, I'm assuming that his DM doesn't mind 3rd party content, in which case, Additional Combat Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/adamant-entertainment/general-feats/additional-combat-style).

Ratkin Naturalist: Well, there's a number of ways to do this.

1) You can focus entirely on your bite attack. You start with Weapon Proficiency: Bite (according to the class information). At level 2, get Improved Natural Weapon: Bite. Since you're not using your hands for the attack, you can use a shield, get some feats for that. Then just get stuff that improves that one bite attack, like Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, Devastating Strike, Improved Devastating Strike, etc. Power Attack and Furious Focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/furious-focus-combat). Since you've only got the one natural attack, it will add 1.5 your strength modifier to the damage and power attack will use the 1.5 modifier. So you'll want your strength to be high. Edit: You can't skip vital strike, it's a prerequisite of Devastating Strike.

2) Rat monk. Take one level of monk (for the damage bonus to your unarmed strike and Improved Unarmed strike), perhaps Master of Many Styles. When you get to second level ranger, take Aspect of the Beast: Claws. You can make your unarmed attacks at normal iterative BAB, then you'll get claw/claw/bite at your highest BAB -5. When you get to level 10, take multiattack and then you'll get claw/claw/bite at your BAB -2 instead.
Take Feral Combat Training, then any spells and effects that apply to your unarmed strike will also apply to your natural attacks.

3) Rat savage. Forget the level of monk. When you're second level ranger, take the claws. Just Claw/Claw/Bite people at your Full BAB. Sure, you don't get iterative attacks, but when you've got three attacks at full BAB, do you really need them?

[Rising Phoenix]

Given that he's allowed to use Ratkin, I'm assuming that his DM doesn't mind 3rd party content, in which case, Additional Combat Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/adamant-entertainment/general-feats/additional-combat-style).



So he just spent a feat to pick feats from another combat style whenever he's allowed a combat style feat.

Granted he can ignore the prerequisites, but isn't that a tad underwhelming? Wouldn't it be better to just pick the feats?

[Engine]

Well, with an Elven Curve Blade (which being an Elf would give him proficiency with) he'd be able to use Weapon Finesse with a two handed weapon.

It seems a waste to me: the Switch Hitter is supposed to hit hard with her melee attacks, Weapon Finesse isn't the way to go.

For the Ratkin Naturalist, I suggest the Shapeshifter Archetype: you get increased mobility and some nice bonuses especially at low levels. I would add to the Baronincognito's list of feat Cleave, it's a nice skirmish feat. You don't get iterative attacks with natural weapons, you could get Pounce only at 20th level so it's better to get the most out of your single attack. Lunge is another nice feat, so you could set up your Cleave better.

[Baroncognito]

So he just spent a feat to pick feats from another combat style whenever his allowed a combat style feat.

Granted he can ignore the prerequisites, but isn't that a tad underwhelming? Wouldn't it be better to just pick the feats?

Ah. That makes more sense than what I imagined it did.

[Rising Phoenix]

Ah. That makes more sense than what I imagined it did.

Well that's how I read it, doesn't mean it's right. :smallsmile: Though I can't see how else you could read it, combat style's just bonus feats.

[Baroncognito]

It seems a waste to me: the Switch Hitter is supposed to hit hard with her melee attacks, Weapon Finesse isn't the way to go.

The switch hitter will want to also hit with the ranged attacks, so she should have a decent dex modifier, which will mean, with weapon finesse, she'll hit more often with her Sword.

[Baroncognito]

Oh... Skirmisher or Trapper. Hmmm.

I actually would not advise using the Skirmisher or Trapper with the Ratkin Naturalist. There are just so many spells that are very helpful. Things like Strong Jaw and Greater Magical Fang. The alternative to Greater Magical Fang for Enhancement Bonuses is an Amulet of Mighty Fists, and that'll be a fair bit more expensive (a +1 weapon is 2,000 gp, a +1amulet is 5,000 gp). Which is a bit expensive if you've only got the one bite attack. Though, if you go a route with more natural attacks, you might consider the amulet.

[TurtleKing]

Ok folks I don't have a choice. It is either Skirmisher or Trapper and even then the Trapper needed a little fixing with its traps. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212684 As per the pbp no magic classes, and the partials have to be non magical so no supernatural or special abilites just extraordinary. The traps for the Trapper has been house ruled that I have the prerequisite alchemical items necessary.

I was wondering about hoe effective the elf would be as a switch hitter. Now that I think about it the ratkin would probably also fit as a switch hitter of a sort. I was thinking of just opening the combat with a shot from a crossbow then proceed into melee with my bite and claws when I get them. So taking PBS and Opening Volley as my two ranged feats then proceed the rest of the way with feats for going ape or should say rat crap ballistic on them. Looking at the 3 builds options 1 and 3 seem a good choice to go with. Though I am thinking why wait on some of those feats, and take them earlier if I qualify.

The Halfling Outrider...just how do I pull that off considering some of the other members of the party might be fighting mounted? In those situations is only were one party member need worry about fighting mounted while the others do their own thing?

[Prime32]

Given that he's allowed to use Ratkin, I'm assuming that his DM doesn't mind 3rd party content, in which case, Additional Combat Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/adamant-entertainment/general-feats/additional-combat-style).So he just spent a feat to pick feats from another combat style whenever he's allowed a combat style feat.

Granted he can ignore the prerequisites, but isn't that a tad underwhelming? Wouldn't it be better to just pick the feats?I thought it meant whenever he got a combat style bonus feat he got one from each list. :smallconfused:

[grarrrg]

I thought it meant whenever he got a combat style bonus feat he got one from each list. :smallconfused:

That's how I read it as well, especially given the fact that it has a pre-req of
Ranger 11.

So you take "a" feat, to gain "many" feats. Which, given that they are based on weapon styles 'usually' means you can't benefit from both at the same time.
Although with the extra combat styles added in, and the fact you can pick and choose which feats you get anyway, this becomes almost an automatic include for ANY Ranger build.

[Rising Phoenix]

I thought it meant whenever he got a combat style bonus feat he got one from each list. :smallconfused:

Hmmm you can read it like that I guess. Up to the DM to decide if he'd use my or your interpretation.

It doesn't say anything about getting an extra bonus feat though.

(I wouldn't allow it for the record, but that's just me.)

[kestrel404]

I thought it meant whenever he got a combat style bonus feat he got one from each list. :smallconfused:

I'm also reading this as getting the combat style class feature twice (and hence twice the feats) - otherwise you're spending your 11th level feat to no benefit until 14th level, at which point you'll get a slightly large selection of feats to choose from. Basically, taking this feat nets you 3 feats off of a short list (net bonus of 2 feats, with 2 more feats at later levels), you must be an 11th level ranger to take it, and the main benefit you get from the feat is that you have slightly more variety of options on how to attack something in combat (so, basically as much benefit as getting a couple of new spells).

This is a significantly more powerful than average feat, since it nets you more feats, but I'd call it acceptable so long as the character isn't using it for real cheese.

[Rising Phoenix]

I'm also reading this as getting the combat style class feature twice (and hence twice the feats) - otherwise you're spending your 11th level feat to no benefit until 14th level, at which point you'll get a slightly large selection of feats to choose from. Basically, taking this feat nets you 3 feats off of a short list (net bonus of 2 feats, with 2 more feats at later levels), you must be an 11th level ranger to take it, and the main benefit you get from the feat is that you have slightly more variety of options on how to attack something in combat (so, basically as much benefit as getting a couple of new spells).

This is a significantly more powerful than average feat, since it nets you more feats, but I'd call it acceptable so long as the character isn't using it for real cheese.

This does seem acceptable. At this level casters will be dominating anyway, 3 extra feats are not going to matter.

I guess if I were to use my interpretation I'd probably hand wave the 11th level requirement. Still underwhelming but you do get a larger feat selection from the word go.

[grarrrg]

Hmmm you can read it like that I guess. Up to the DM to decide if he'd use my or your interpretation.

It doesn't say anything about getting an extra bonus feat though.

(I wouldn't allow it for the record, but that's just me.)

It is a VERY poorly worded feat.
"You get the benefits of an additional combat style (normal restrictions apply)" is GREAT for a flavor description, but does nothing from a strict rules perspective (3rd party, what you gonna do?)

The two big questions are what constitutes a 'benefit', the feats themselves? Or the expanded selection? And does it work retroactively?

Assume for a second it means Expanded selection. You would be spending a feat to have a slightly better selection of bonus feats, when you could have just have taken the feat you wanted in the first place. There is also no reason to take this any later than level 13 (as it would have less/no benefit)
Net result: BAD: You are down 1 feat (given that it's 3rd party, a feat this bad is fairly common)

Now assume it gives you extra feats, starting 'now'. You would spend a feat 'now' in order to get 2 more feats later. The only level this would make any sense to take would be 13 (at 11/12 you'd be down a feat for an extra 2 levels, and after level 14 you'd start losing benefits).
Net results: FAIR: You 'lose' a feat now, to get 2 feats later.

Now what if the above applied retroactively? You spend a feat, instantly getting 3 feats now, with 2 more later. No Ranger in their right mind would NOT take this as their level 11 feat (or at the latest their level 13 feat).
Net result: OMGWTHBBQ!!1!1: 1 feat > 5 feats (given that it's 3rd party, a feat this awesomely good is fairly common)

[Prime32]

Now what if the above applied retroactively? You spend a feat, instantly getting 3 feats now, with 2 more later. No Ranger in their right mind would NOT take this as their level 11 feat (or at the latest their level 13 feat).
Net result: OMGWTHBBQ!!1!1: 1 feat > 5 feats (given that it's 3rd party, a feat this awesomely good is fairly common)Not so much, considering that you can't benefit from both combat styles at the same time.

...or at least you couldn't when that feat was created. The extra combat styles like Mounted grant more benefit.

[Rising Phoenix]

Grarrrg's 3rd interpretation still open's up a lot of other feat trees though.

I think his 2nd one is the best for a level 11 feat with the net bonus being 1 extra feat. This isn't going to unbalance the game by any stretch of imagination.

[Engine]

The switch hitter will want to also hit with the ranged attacks, so she should have a decent dex modifier, which will mean, with weapon finesse, she'll hit more often with her Sword.

It's a matter of taste. If you want to focus your PC on Dexterity Weapon Finesse could be acceptable. To me in a build like that Strength is the primary stat, so picking Weapon Finesse is a waste.

By the way, you don't need to have so much Dexterity to be an effective archer: a 14 (base) is enough. A Ranger has good BAB, you could pile bonus to-hit on your weapon and enhancement bonus to your Dexterity. Strength, as a primary stat, will give you bonuses to damage (both ranged and melee). And it's easier to pump to-hit than damage.

In a Dervish Dance build, of course, Weapon Finesse will be required and an high Dexterity really pays off, but in a standard build Strength is more important: you could never go wrong with an high Strength build, especially at low levels.

With a Dexterity build you will hit more often with ranged attacks and you will have less MAD but you will do less damage. To me it seems better to go for pure Archery if you want to focus in Dexterity, because in melee you wouldn't do enough damage to fill that role.

[TurtleKing]

Well I am about to put a few holes in what you are suggesting besides the fact no one as said anything about the Mounted combat style so that one is off the table.

The Switch Hitter build is from Treantmonk's PF Ranger guide. The Ranger focuses on being effective in ranged and melee combat. Now you may think this of only possible once I get to level 11. It is in fact easy to do by the time you are level 3. The deal is you get one of the ranged combat styles most likely archery for those feats. The melee side is from your normal feats typically focusing on 2h. The reason not doing it the other way is the feat options for the 2h weapon combat style are frankly poor. Thay is the typical way but not the only way.

You could also go the crossbow combat style for the ranged side, or just select feats as you level. The benefit of the crossbow style is being cheaper , usable for lower Strength characters, and doesn't require you to worry about reloading if only used for say an opening shot. Because I only have 200 gold a Heavy Crossbow would only use up 50 gold, while a Composite +0 Longbow would use up 100 gold. Another thing is the Heavy Crossbow is 1d10 damage, and the Composite Longbow +0 is just 1d8+0 damage. You may think because it is composite you just add the Str mod. Well you do upto the composite rating so while still having any money left over for the rest I spent an extra 25g to add no damage. So probably go with the Crossbow combat style due to being cheaper and fits a character with a little less strength.

As for the melee side we have twice as many options for combat styles. The 2 handed style may put out the most damage, but is hurting in the defense department. The 2 weapon style also doesn't put out enough damage plus this isn't a Drizzt clone so no. This leaves just the natural weapon and sword and board styles left. Considering the character is an Anathema the sword and board sounds great since healing spells don't work on me unless I allow them. The natural style has the benefit of already having a natural attack so I could go one strong attack with the bit or turn into a whirling machine of death by also getting claws. The downside of the sword and board is lower damage while the natural doesn't get the spells to add to the attacks.

So based on all of that will probably take the natural style unless I go with the sword and board. If I do go with the sword and board then will either use that or the crossbow as the combat style and normal feats for the other.

I am looking forward to replies since will want to get my character posted soon.

[stack]

If you go natural weapons, you could also be a half-orc and trade ferocity for a bite attack (toothy), then use your style feat for claws. Then you attack routine...would look like my character's bear's attack routine. (Applying to same game).

Just an idea if you don't want ratkin.

[TurtleKing]

That is true plus my stats are would fit more in line with a switch hitter. The difference in the damage is not that much considering both will be doing 1d4 with the bite and claws. What does separate them in damage is the bonus. So a ratkin light be 1d4+1 while the half orc could be 1d4+3 or even +4 for each attack. I could also pick up scavenger to help out since living on the fringe or Cavewight and Rock Climber. I don't know both seem viable. I am going have to mull that one over.

Also rereading what the DM said that is OK with Ratkin. Because of that don't want to make it too hard so looking over the Halfling Outrider again. How can that be done? If no one really responds to it then either Half Orc or Ratkin.

[stack]

A small-sized charger should work fine. The DM already said that mounted combat will be viable, and that was for a medium-sized rider.

Mounted ranger, possibly with the horselord archetype, should be viable, though you don't get the animal companion till 4.

[TurtleKing]

Problem with the horselord archtype is still having spells. Only the Skirmisher straight out of the box, or the Trapper with the possibly right out of the box are playable. Rangers being partial casters so have to be selective of their abilities that re allowed.

[stack]

Horselord and trapper stack, as do skirmisher and horselord. You can combine archetypes as long as they replace different abilities.

You would still have to just buy a mount for use levels 1-3, which would be squishy. I would recommend Boon Companion to get the AC's (animal companion) level up once you have it. If you ask nice the DM may let you take Boon Companion early and get the AC early as well, but that would be a houserule.

Otherwise the only non-magic class to get an AC at lvl 1 is cavalier. (Druids and Oracles can get them at 1, clerics and inquisitors at 4, but they are obviously casters)

[TurtleKing]

Interesting this seems to be able to pull off except one thing. The Horselord archtype has Spiritual Bond which is a supernatural ability. If not for that ability then would be just fine as well. Another archtype in a similar boat is the Spiritual Ranger, but Guide and Infiltrator both work just fine with Trapper and Skirmisher.

[Starbuck_II]

That's how I read it as well, especially given the fact that it has a pre-req of
Ranger 11.

So you take "a" feat, to gain "many" feats. Which, given that they are based on weapon styles 'usually' means you can't benefit from both at the same time.
Although with the extra combat styles added in, and the fact you can pick and choose which feats you get anyway, this becomes almost an automatic include for ANY Ranger build.

Yep, that is how it reads. You get all the benefits of both styles (this includes all feats granted). So it doubles feats granted (usually won't help unless you switch fighting though)

[TurtleKing]

Oh so the feat you guys have been discussing is retroactive? Next question is goint to be if it will be allowed or not?

Edit: After looking back at the feat it only works on archery, musketeer, and two weapon fighting. Out of those styles it is going to be no, no, and hell no in respective order. I'll gnaw that clone into pieces before I go that route.

[Tetrasodium]

Ok folks I don't have a choice. It is either Skirmisher or Trapper and even then the Trapper needed a little fixing with its traps. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212684 As per the pbp no magic classes, and the partials have to be non magical so no supernatural or special abilites just extraordinary. The traps for the Trapper has been house ruled that I have the prerequisite alchemical items necessary.

I was wondering about hoe effective the elf would be as a switch hitter. Now that I think about it the ratkin would probably also fit as a switch hitter of a sort. I was thinking of just opening the combat with a shot from a crossbow then proceed into melee with my bite and claws when I get them. So taking PBS and Opening Volley as my two ranged feats then proceed the rest of the way with feats for going ape or should say rat crap ballistic on them. Looking at the 3 builds options 1 and 3 seem a good choice to go with. Though I am thinking why wait on some of those feats, and take them earlier if I qualify.

The Halfling Outrider...just how do I pull that off considering some of the other members of the party might be fighting mounted? In those situations is only were one party member need worry about fighting mounted while the others do their own thing?

The elf/finesse build works because elves get the curve blade as a martial (so free) weapon instead of exotic. The curve blade is 2h 1d10 18-20/x2 slash making it fairly solid as a weapon. This would allow you to take the archery path for the free bow stuff and still have a nice melee power instead of having to go the (better than3.5, but still meh) twf that would make you need to constantly find three good weapons instead of just two (Two-Handed weapon alternate ranger weapon style opens up lots of nifty 2h feats for freeish while still letting you go with the various archetypes too.

[TurtleKing]

The only problem with that then is the cost. I only have 200 gold to start with. If only getting a longbow and the Elven Curve Blade will still have spent 155 gold. That only leaves me with 45 gold for armor, ammo, and all of my other equipment. Same thing would happen if I went with Half Orc using a Falchion. The best option in that regard is the Greataxe since only have spent 95 gold from those two weapons leaving 105 gold for everything else. Well actually several other weapons then become available that are martial and helps with various manuavers as in tripping or disarming.

[Bhaakon]

I'm going to warn you off the additional combat style feat. The long argument for what it means exactly is the primary reason why.

[Tetrasodium]

The only problem with that then is the cost. I only have 200 gold to start with. If only getting a longbow and the Elven Curve Blade will still have spent 155 gold. That only leaves me with 45 gold for armor, ammo, and all of my other equipment. Same thing would happen if I went with Half Orc using a Falchion. The best option in that regard is the Greataxe since only have spent 95 gold from those two weapons leaving 105 gold for everything else. Well actually several other weapons then become available that are martial and helps with various manuavers as in tripping or disarming.

going by the gold totals I'm guessing you are starting at level 1ish. You will have decent dex and it's not like anyone else will be affording fullplate or anything. You can buy leather armor for like 10gp or something silly cheap combined with as nice dex, you just might have the highest AC in the group that way.

[Baroncognito]

Are you permitted traits? If you are, you could either go "rich parents" or "heirloom weapon."

If not, consider the short bow until you can afford a long bow. (Long Bows are probably easier to come by in a campaign setting than Elven Curve Swords)

I wouldn't say that the halfling outrider is a bad idea either. I'll agree that you would want the Boon Companion feat. The issue being that you still wouldn't get the companion until level 4.

[TurtleKing]

Ok I have made my decision. A Ratkin Skirmisher Ranger using natural combat style and crossbow for the normal progression.

With a 25 point buy lets see if I can pull this off it is my first time using point buy. Starting with 10 across the board. Then would... 0/25

Str 15 - 7 -2 racial
Dex 14 - 5 +2 racial
Con 14 - 5
Int 11 - 1 +2 racial
Wis 14 - 5
Cha 12 - 2

After racial Str 13, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 12. Do check my math.

Over all not bad for starting stats considering Rangers are so MAD. Shoot think Rangers are one of the few who need it across the board considering they have a need across the board for each one...to varying degrees. Granted I did use Treantmonk's guide, but I take only some of it while customizing my character. I'll my character posted in a bit.

Edit: Part of the reason going with Ratkin is most base races don't excite me as some of the exotic races do. Granted some variant races do, but mostly only the Gnomes and maybe Halflings from core.

[TurtleKing]

Ok I have been looking at some of the martial 2h weapons. Some of them are quite cheap such as the various polearms. So is there a way to oh I don't know marry 2h feats and natural weapon feats even to just a little degree? While at which one of the polearms are good considering trip, disarm, or even sundering? One of the criteria is how well does this do to a caster in messing him up?

[Baroncognito]

If you have a two handed weapon that doesn't have reach, you can do Iterative attacks with the two handed weapons and then bite at BAB-5 (until you get multiattack, at which point it goes to BAB-2).

You cannot do claw attacks if you have attacked with a two handed weapon.

[Arutema]

"heirloom weapon."

Don't. Eratta ruined that trait. Among other things, you cannot choose an exotic weapon, and you must pay its cost normally.

[Tetrasodium]

Ok I have been looking at some of the martial 2h weapons. Some of them are quite cheap such as the various polearms. So is there a way to oh I don't know marry 2h feats and natural weapon feats even to just a little degree? While at which one of the polearms are good considering trip, disarm, or even sundering? One of the criteria is how well does this do to a caster in messing him up?

I know you said that youthink you already decided... but I wanted to add something that might have been overlooked & relevant to the decision now that you mention trip/sunder/etc. UC has a feat called Agile maneuvers that allows you to use dex rather than strength for combat maneuvers (trip/sunder/disarm/charge/etc) ans would give you even more synergy out of a dex based build

[TurtleKing]

So what if I use a reach weapon that can also disarm for enemies 10ft away and my bite for the up close ones? After a little thought disarming of the caster's wand, focus, spell component pouch, rod, or staff to hinder the spellcasting. Oh did I forget to mention favored enemy is prepared arcane casters. In that regard using the combat style to in the beginning enhance my bite. Later on may also add the claws for when using a weapon such as a Ranseur or a Bill is no longer as effective.

So currently thinking of the disarm being good, but how does it compare to tripping, sundering, and bracing? Which one is the best against a caster?

[Tetrasodium]

So what if I use a reach weapon that can also disarm for enemies 10ft away and my bite for the up close ones? After a little thought disarming of the caster's wand, focus, spell component pouch, rod, or staff to hinder the spellcasting. Oh did I forget to mention favored enemy is prepared arcane casters. In that regard using the combat style to in the beginning enhance my bite. Later on may also add the claws for when using a weapon such as a Ranseur or a Bill is no longer as effective.

So currently thinking of the disarm being good, but how does it compare to tripping, sundering, and bracing? Which one is the best against a caster?

-Bracing: Can't say I've ever seen a caster charge someone
-Sundering: You pretty much never want to use sunder because it ruins your soon to be treasure
- Disarming: I guess casters use a wand sometimes... whatever they are holding is not typically the most dangerous thing about them though.
-Trip: Lose a turn, do not collect 200$. You can't usually cast while tripped and provoke an AoO if you stand up.

In regards to reach... UC's Lunge feat will allow you to attack things an extra 5 feet away giving you the benefits of reach weapons without the close range drawbacks . Paired with things like cleave, it's lots of fun :)

[Baroncognito]

So what if I use a reach weapon that can also disarm for enemies 10ft away and my bite for the up close ones?

That will work fine, and if you don't attack with the reach weapon, you can just do your bite at full BAB.

What I don't know about is if you can use your reach attack on one target 10 feet away and your bite attack on a target 5 feet away.

[TurtleKing]

OK ok soinds good. Because I am an Anathema sundering s magical item overall is actually a good thing since I most likely can't use it. So tripping is the ability to get slip them up uh. So which one Guisarme or the Horsechopper?

[Frosty]

What's a Switch Hitter ranger anyways?

[TurtleKing]

Look up Treantmonks's PF Ranger Handbook. In that it covers the Archery, 2weapon, and Switch Hitter builds. The Switch Hitter is able to both do well in ranged and melee combat. This is even better with PF than 3.5 due not being so feat starved. The typical one is archery style and normal feats 2handed. However you can mix and match with the archery and crossbow for the ranged side, and do the same with 2weapon, 2handed, natural, and sword and board. The hardest one to pull off is the natural style since several of the feats are accessible to druids so for my character I would have to take that style while normal the other.

Also now that I think about it the reach weapon is mostly for now when I am a bit squishy. So even when I get into melee going to be more of a flanker to not get mauled as much.

[Baroncognito]

I'd go with the horse chopper for thematic reasons. It's a really savage looking weapon, crudely assembled. It has more of a look of "I found this lying around."

[grarrrg]

Oh so the feat you guys have been discussing is retroactive? Next question is goint to be if it will be allowed or not?

Edit: After looking back at the feat it only works on archery, musketeer, and two weapon fighting. Out of those styles it is going to be no, no, and hell no in respective order. I'll gnaw that clone into pieces before I go that route.

The feat was written BEFORE the additional combat styles were added, so either ignore/add-to the portion in parenthesis.

Here are a couple homebrew feats I thought up that should make things more clear/useable/fair.
The first is the "bad" version, made more useable.
The second is the "omgwthbbq!" version made less awesome.

Ranger's Adaptability
Req: Ranger 5
Benefit: Select a Combat Style you do not have, whenever you would gain a Combat Style feat you may select it from either list.
[insert additional/minor bonus here]

Ranger's Versatility
Req: Ranger #
Benefit: Select a Combat Style you do not have, this becomes your Secondary Combat Style. For each primary combat style feat you have/gain you may select a (level equivalent) feat from your Secondary list.
You only gain the use of ONE Combat style at any one time, you may switch Styles as a Move action.


Either feat could use additional Req's, the first one that comes to mind is "Int 13", as it fits the flavor ('skilled'), and is a stat not every Ranger would automatically have.
The first version is still on the weak side, hence the note for another bonus (should be equivalent to half-a-feat of bonus).
The second feat is up for grabs what level it should be available, I'd say as early as 7, or as late as 11. Also can change the "switch" action speed, swift seemed too 'cheap', and a Full-Round+ just seems too expensive.
The second feat leaves you effectively down a feat compared to a 'normal' Ranger.
Normal Ranger 10 has 8 feats (5 from levels, 3 from combat style)
Versatile Ranger 10 has '7' feats (4 from levels, 3 from combat style)
But the Versatile Ranger can quickly switch the 3 combat style feats, so they 'effectively' have 10 feats to the Norm-Rangers 8.

Feedback is greatly appreciated.

[TurtleKing]

Since Bhaakon is the DM I'll let him/her put forth his/her take on those feats.

Question does the bonus from favored enemy affect your CMB in regards to your favored enemy? So do I get a +2 against prepared arcane caster consisting of Alchemists, Magus, Witches, and Wizards to my CMB when dealing with them?

[TurtleKing]

Ok I am posting again to see what you think about my character sheet plus any issues that still need to be fixed.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=323934

Still working on the fluff mostly just need to type it up.

[Frosty]

Since Bhaakon is the DM I'll let him/her put forth his/her take on those feats.

Question does the bonus from favored enemy affect your CMB in regards to your favored enemy? So do I get a +2 against prepared arcane caster consisting of Alchemists, Magus, Witches, and Wizards to my CMB when dealing with them?

Only if it the particular maneuver uses your weapon, I'd say. Like, when you try to Disarm someone or Sunder his weapon (or pouch), you are using your weapon to do so. Any bonuses to your weapon to-hit would logically benefit you in these maneuvers. If you have a Trip weapon, then Tripping with the weapon would also benefit. Maneuvers like Bull Rush or Drag or Reposition...not so much.

[TurtleKing]

Nice so I have a +4 to tripping if it is my favored enemy. Does the +4 from Opening Volley also gets added if made a successful ranged attack last round?

[Coidzor]

I'm going to warn you off the additional combat style feat. The long argument for what it means exactly is the primary reason why.

Where does this feat even appear?

[Bhaakon]

Where does this feat even appear?

It's 3rd party on the PFSRD.

[Coidzor]

It's 3rd party on the PFSRD.

Weird. I've been searching there and haven't found it under that name or similar.

edit: ...

...

Google hates me. :smalleek: I re-entered the same search I first used and then it was the first result.

edit2: There's an argument over what it means? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/adamant-entertainment/general-feats/additional-combat-style)

[Bhaakon]

Weird. I've been searching there and haven't found it under that name or similar.

edit: ...

...

Google hates me. :smalleek: I re-entered the same search I first used and then it was the first result.

edit2: There's an argument over what it means? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/adamant-entertainment/general-feats/additional-combat-style)

Read the first page of this thread.

Do you suddenly gain a bunch of combat style feat retroactively? Do you get two combat style feats at levels 14 and 18 instead of one? Do you only get one combat style feat at levels 14 and 18, but can select it from between two different combat style feat lists?

[Coidzor]

Do you suddenly gain a bunch of combat style feat retroactively? Do you get two combat style feats at levels 14 and 18 instead of one? Do you only get one combat style feat at levels 14 and 18, but can select it from between two different combat style feat lists?

Hence my question as to how you all could get that confused about it.

[Bhaakon]

Hence my question as to how you all could get that confused about it.

Because those are all different interpretations that fit the language of the feat as written.

[Coidzor]

Because those are all different interpretations that fit the language of the feat as written.

They don't really seem to fit with the description of the combat style class feature though.

Or did PF change the nature of bonus feats more than I had thought?

[Bhaakon]

They don't really seem to fit with the description of the combat style class feature though.

Or did PF change the nature of bonus feats more than I had thought?

The combat style class feature in PF is a bonus feat at levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18 chosen from a small list of feats based on the combat style you've chosen and your level. It's much different from the 3.5 version, which just doesn't give you a choice of feats.

[TurtleKing]

So here is the sheet again with the corrections. http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=323934 Is there anything else or is Skittles good to go mechanically?

[Baroncognito]

Looks good. I'd play it.

[TurtleKing]

I posted my sheet to see if had any errors. I am hearing I have one to many feats. Why didn't someone speak up sooner?

[Tetrasodium]

I posted my sheet to see if had any errors. I am hearing I have one to many feats. Why didn't someone speak up sooner?

Looks like you were thinking human extra feat or mistakenly took your combat style feat @1 instead of 2. Fear not though, PF gives a feat every 2 levels (3, 5, 7, etc) & rangers get to pick a combat style feat at ummm 2, 6, 10, etc or something

You probably didn't get much feedback because you posed a link to a sheet instead of just the details

[Omeganaut]

Ok I have made my decision. A Ratkin Skirmisher Ranger using natural combat style and crossbow for the normal progression.

With a 25 point buy lets see if I can pull this off it is my first time using point buy. Starting with 10 across the board. Then would... 0/25

Str 15 - 7 -2 racial
Dex 14 - 5 +2 racial
Con 14 - 5
Int 11 - 1 +2 racial
Wis 14 - 5
Cha 12 - 2

After racial Str 13, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 12. Do check my math.

Over all not bad for starting stats considering Rangers are so MAD. Shoot think Rangers are one of the few who need it across the board considering they have a need across the board for each one...to varying degrees. Granted I did use Treantmonk's guide, but I take only some of it while customizing my character. I'll my character posted in a bit.


Why do you need Wisdom and Charisma? They boost some stats, true, but I don't really think you need those stats at all. You don't need the Wisdom anymore to cast spells, It won't make much of a difference for the Skirmisher abilities (most of which aren't very useful anyways by level 5) and the wild empathy is not useful often. I'd take those down, maybe even take a penalty to CHA, and boost your physical scores.

[Baroncognito]

I posted my sheet to see if had any errors. I am hearing I have one to many feats. Why didn't someone speak up sooner?

Because I couldn't parse in that sheet which bonuses were class abilities for level 1, which ones were racial abilities, and which ones were feats.

[TurtleKing]

Oh well just have to postpone PBS. As for why is so I can use my tricks more times per day. At level 5 will probably be 4 times a day. Not to mention Will saves are the worst of the 3 so having some in Wisdom helps with that. Rangers are the most MAD of the classes...yea. At least 5 of the 6 are needed in more ways than one. Plus I am not playing a 18 in Str, Dex, and Con but only a 3 in Int, Wis, and Cha.:smalltongue: I play characters not sheets so to me having a strict focus for combat as the determing factor of whats stats are what ain't happening. As for why one too many feats was because of another games house rule. ...Probably should go adjust my skills on that campaign's character...was thinking (X+Int mod)x4.

Edit: I did label which parts of the Feats and special abilities with a section for traits, race, class, and feats.

Edit the 2nd: What tricks of the Skirmisher are good, average, meh, and just bad. And no I can't just go with some kind of spellcasting. I have already decided not to be a Guide, Infiltrator, or Trapper.