Catfolk Warblade dual-wielding daggers

[Anarchy_Kanya]

I'm creating a character for a game and the DM asked if I could make a more front-line char., because the present team is kinda squishie and needs a beatstick. The problem is that I'm hell bent on dual-wielding daggers as my primary style. What can I do to make it work?
Clarification: I'm not looking for something crazy optimized. From what I understand the game won't be that hard (it's that BoEF themed game by Admiral Squish :P). All I need is that this char. is competent as a meleer.

Build info:
ECL 5.
Race - catfolk.
Alignment - CN.
Gender - female.
Class(es) - Warblade 3/Factotum or Rogue 1 (I'm open to suggestions).
Abilities (pb 40) - Str 17 (4th level boost applied), Dex 18, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 16 (I might lower Wis and increase something else).
The DM is willing to allow a little homebrew/3rd party/PF material.

Anything else?

[Morph Bark]

Why go for daggers when you can go for kukri and take Blood in the Water to go crazy with? Fluff-wise they're highly similar, but the crit range is greater.

Are there stances that increase your range? I know there are boosts that do so, but I dunno if those do it for long enough. Take in combo with the Stand Still feat from the XPH.

I'm actually pretty shocked your Dex is only 18 when you're playing a Catfolk.

[Essence_of_War]

Can I interest you in a 1-2 level dip in swordsage? Picking up any 1 shadow hand maneuver qualifies you for Shadow Blade which allows you to add your dex to damage with any shadow hand weapons (daggers count) whenever you're in a shadow hand stance.

Assassin's Stance is always a great option for this as it gives 2d6 of sneak attack as well.

Alternatively, if you aren't married to Warblade, I might go Fighter2/Swordsage2 or 3. This will help with the TWF feats and gives you a solid extra source of damage.

[koscum]

General opinion on TWF is that if you're going for it, you must have an additional source of damage (Skirmish or Sneak Attack).

DEX 18 with Catfolk's +4 Racial?!? Catfolk are strictly Dex race (+1LA just doesn't pay off if Dex isn't your primary stat) and as such are primarily Rogues/Scouts/Swordsages.

You could try some of the Tiger Claw manoeuvres/boosts (Wolf Fang Strike, Dancing/Raging Mongoose) for TWF, but the best ones are high-level.

As Essence_of_War (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=56611) said, making a Dex Fighter/Swordsage is much, much better for Catfolk (Weapon Finesse + TWF + Shadow Blade). Pick Adaptive Style for manoeuvre renewal and you're good to go.

[HappyBlanket]

Seconding that you take a level of Swordsage. Shadow Blade is just too good to pass up for a character with high Dex. There are also a few Tigerclaw maneuvers (in addition to Shadow Hand maneuvers) that reward the swift, agile combatant archetype. If that's what you're going for, that is (I saw Catfolk, Chaotic Neutral, Rogue, etc and made an educated guess).

But of course, that's a suggestion to improve the character build. If you're just asking whether or not the build you have is competent in melee, it should be quite fine so long as you keep up the Martial Adept class levels. Just keep up with the levels of Warblade (or Swordsage if you take the above suggestion), and you'll get by just fine.

[Admiral Squish]

In my defense, the melee beatstick/tank thing was just a suggestion as to what the group was lacking. The group already has a swordsage, so I was trying to point her somewhere where she wouldn't be in direct competition.

But if she wants to play a more swordsagey character, she can do that just as well.

[koscum]

Hmmm... I guess you can go for Warblade then seeing that he has some awesome defensive/party boost manoeuvres.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

I think I stick with the Warblade, maybe even straight Warblade. The ECL is to low for wild dipping. :smallwink:
As for the abilities: I like it when my characters are well rounded. I can't stand having low stats. Also I'm going more for adjusting the stats to fluff then vice versa. :smalltongue:
Overall suggestions are very good. Keep 'em coming. :smallsmile:

[Morph Bark]

Seconding that you take a level of Swordsage. Shadow Blade is just too good to pass up for a character with high Dex. There are also a few Tigerclaw maneuvers (in addition to Shadow Hand maneuvers) that reward the swift, agile combatant archetype. If that's what you're going for, that is (I saw Catfolk, Chaotic Neutral, Rogue, etc and made an educated guess).

Does Shadow Blade replace or add Dex? IIRC, it replaces Strength, which means that with a Str of 17 and a Dex of 18 it won't be that great, hence why I did not suggest it.

If you pump the Dex by 4 (putting an 18 into it at level 1) and dump Str to 10, I say GO FOR IT LIKE A SPEEDING TRAIN.

[Yuki Akuma]

Shadow Blade adds Dex. It doesn't replace anything.

Exact wording:



Shadow Blade
...
Benefit: While you are in a Shadow Hand stance and attack with one of the discipline's preferred weapons, you can add your Dexterity modifier as a bonus on melee damage for attacks made with the weapon.

[Eldariel]

Warblade with Stormguard Warrior on 6, and perhaps Shadow Blade would be more than acceptable. Really, ToB does TWF pretty darn well, in either Swordsage or Warblade chassis.

[Talya]

You don't NEED swordsage to pull this off. You just need a shadow hand stance and maneuver.

Unfortunately, you're dual weilding, so unless you're taking flaws, this is difficult.

Martial Study, Martial Stance (No contest here. The Child of Shadow stance gives you permanent concealment, which for a tank is golden), Shadow Blade, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse.


Even with flaws, that's 5 feats. At ECL 5 you'll have a maximum of 4.

I really believe that Warblade 4/Swordsage 1 is a better option, but you can do it without swordsage. It'd be a shame not to make use of that +4 dex bonus. Nothing prevents you from taking the feats later, anyway.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Word from the DM: "Think how far you want. I'm planning on going as far as we can."
So in other words I'm going to plan to 10th level for now.
Okay. I think I'm going to go the Shadow Blade route, swap Str with Dex (making it 14 and 21), change classes to Warblade 2/Swordsage 2 and later continue Warblade. Or maybe take Crusader? I don't know. I kinda don't like Crusaders recovery mechanic and class features. I'm considering dipping Lion Totem Barb 1 for pounce (and Rage as a bonus).
Remember that I'm trying to be the tank here.


Unfortunately, you're dual weilding, so unless you're taking flaws, this is difficult.
I'll ask the DM. If he allows itAllowed, I'am taking Shaky and Vulnerable. My AC should be high enough to not care for that -1 and I don't really plan on going into ranged combat.


The Child of Shadow stance gives you permanent concealment, which for a tank is golden)
When you move 10 ft. Is moving as a tank a good idea?

[Swok]

Rogue 3/Warblade 3/Bloodclaw Master 3/ Nightsong Enforcer 1/Swordsage 2/Warblade +more

Sneak Attack dual wield. Rogue 3 to get penetrating strike. Get Some white raven with early Warblade to get the White Raven tactical feat for that tasty tasty perpetual flank option (not too needed if you have a regular flanking buddy) and then go far into Tiger Claw with the later Warblade levels, particularly Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip. Get some tasty utility out of your Swordsage stuff like some of the Shadow Hand teleports (Very important to grab Moment of Perfect Mind with how terribad your will save is) The level 1 Swordsage feat your best bet is probably the Desert Wind one, of all things. Scaling fire resistance that becomes immunity based on tumble ranks? Yes please. For a sneak attacker you'll be very front-line, and you get a nice animalistic vibe that can go well with Catfolk. Feel free to shuffle the actual level progression around, as the sooner you get Assassin's Stance the sooner you start being really good at two weapon fighting with shadow blade.

Daggers actually work out really well for this, as for some weird reason Bloodclaw master adds on Daggers to the Tiger Claw weapon list which then lets you add full strength bonus to offhand dagger, and cutting the -2 penalty twf has. You might not want to grab Nightsong Enforcer or the White Raven tactical feat just because of how many feats you need as is, but they're both things to look into for this. Nightsong Enforcer if only because the prerequisite is a good thing anyway

[Anarchy_Kanya]

A thought occurred to me - Battle Dancer 1. :D
Warb 2/Unarmed SS 2/Battle D. 1/Lion Totem Barb 1/Bloodclaw Master?

[HappyBlanket]

When you move 10 ft. Is moving as a tank a good idea?
Why wouldn't it be? Chances are you'll be moving anyways to keep up with the enemies, and a 20% to ignore damage entirely is nothing to scoff at.


A thought occurred to me - Battle Dancer 1. :D
Warb 2/Unarmed SS 2/Battle D. 1/Lion Totem Barb 1/Bloodclaw Master?

Battle Dancer 1? Why? All it gives you is Charisma to AC, which just increases your multiple attribute dependency. Honestly, +3 to AC is not worth an entire class level.

[Greenish]

Honestly, +3 to AC is not worth an entire class level.Not to mention that it's less than what you lose for not wearing even light armour.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Not wearing armor is important to this character. If there wouldn't be any other way, I would use it, but there is, so I'm taking Battle Dancer. Also I want to somehow profit from the Cha (from the start of the game, not a couple of levels later). And I want Perform as class skill.

[HappyBlanket]

Not to mention that it's less than what you lose for not wearing even light armour.

Very valid point.

Allow me to amend my statement: -3 to AC is not worth an entire class level.


Not wearing armor is important to this character. If there wouldn't be any other way, I would use it, but there is, so I'm taking Battle Dancer. Also I want to somehow profit from the Cha (from the start of the game, not a couple of levels later). And I want Perform as class skill.

Hurm. So no armor too (not even if it's enchanted and light? Like a studded leather vest?). Thorough MAD, decidedly average stats, low synergy in multiclassing... These are some tough restrictions from an optimization stand point :smalltongue:

I still don't think you'll run into any significant problems though. Especially if you stay near the level you're at. You ought to be fine with the build you have.

[Greenish]

Not wearing armor is important to this character.Ah, I missed that.

[Morph Bark]

At this point, perhaps you should consider dropping Int some and rather than taking Warblade levels, take more Swordsage and up your Wis, especially if you are going to be unarmoured a lot. Take the unarmed Swordsage variant, if allowed. It might not come up often, but it will help if you are disarmed.

Also, drop two skill points in Iaijutsu Focus for 1 rank. There you have some Cha use.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

There is already a Swordsage in the team and I don't like to play the same class as someone else. Also I need the d12s and full BaB. What tank would I be without them? A Monk that pumps all his stats into AC? Sorry, but I don't like turtles. :smallamused:

[HappyBlanket]

If you're trying to be a tank, AC is kinda central. Unless we're working with different definitions of the term.

Also, if you focus on different disciplines, two swordsages can play like entirely different classes.

[Morph Bark]

Is the other Swordsage and Unarmed Swordsage? If not, by focussing on disciplines the other one has none of you'd still make a good part of the team together. My current campaign had two Swordsages, one of which was Unarmed and became a Swordsage 4/Dragonfire Adept 1/Shadow Sun Ninja 1 eventually while the other kept on going in Swordsage.

If you're not going to be wearing armor and still expect to tank though, perhaps you should reconsider turning away from ToB. If it wasn't for the "no armor" clause, Crusader all the way.

Or just ask if you can use a little homebrew tweaking. Like your Swordsage giving up two schools in trade for Devoted Spirit, increase its HD to d12 and BAB to full and slow maneuver progression to gaining just one maneuver every 2 levels after 1st, starting with just 4.

[2xMachina]

No armor tanks... Wizard could do that I guess, but... otherwise... your AC is hard to increase.

[Cerlis]

remember the DM even said here he only mentioned beatstick because yall already havea swordsage. if i where you i'd think less Fighter with tower shield and longsword and more Barbarian with greataxe. In other words a tough hero (which you might be able to qualify for with only that d12 hit dice) who makes his presence known on the battlefield.

I like the idea of a Catfolk warrior with dual daggers who uses tricks (skill tricks and feignting. thats a good idea btw, with the well rounded stats you get good int and thus skill points to waste on skill tricks) and combat ability to eviscerate an enemy with Sneak attack (assassins stance plus two weapon fighting, and your swordsage friend flanking)and combining that with the two weapon fighting style (always forget what its called i do.). and when the foe is to great for your Moderately armored but tough warrior to go to to toe with, you and your melee allies skirmish with him. you stay 10 feet away, sometimes he goes to your allies, sometimes to you when you piss him off, but you are bounding on the balls of your feet, seeming out of reach only to reach in and slice a great gash in him with the tips of your daggers (that would be a stance for Iron heart that increases your range by 10 feet ony our turn). basically the point is, if you are unable to stay in melee and benefit from sneak attacking with two weapons, you stay 10 feet away striking him but not being struck, and if he decides to close in use one of your tougher maneuvers to make him sorry.

[Talya]

Don't forget you're getting wisdom to AC from 2 levels of swordsage, too. That won't stack with battledancer cha-to-ac.

[Icestorm245]

Why not be a Dervish from complete warrior? You need Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility and Weapon Focus, perform (dance) 3 ranks and tumble 3 ranks to qualify and you get a lot of cool stuff (I'll let you read about it on your own). Some people say the feats aren't worth it but you did mention perform as a class skill so this will work really well with the flavour of your character AND if used right is AWESOME.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

I know what the DM said, but I'm still trying to heed his request and be at least partially able to tank.


Don't forget you're getting wisdom to AC from 2 levels of swordsage, too. That won't stack with battledancer cha-to-ac.
Why wouldn't they? They're two differently working features and both give unnamed bonus to AC.


Why not be a Dervish from complete warrior?
Comparing to other options that I have, it's too sub-optimal.

[Talya]

Why wouldn't they? They're two differently working features and both give unnamed bonus to AC.


As I understand it, they're both a class feature called "AC Bonus" that has a source of "{ability}-to-AC." Curmudgeon (unsurprisingly) argues this one a lot, but it appears to have support from Errata/FAQs/custserv or some other such thing. (Probably not specifically for battledancer, but for some of the other "AC Bonus" classes.)

[Anarchy_Kanya]

I don't have (yet) any official ruling on it, but I read on BG that by RAW even Monk and Swordsage AC bonus stack. Personally I would rule that they don't stack, but Swordsage and Battle Dancer should be even more understandable to stack, because their features are different.

[Morph Bark]

As I understand it, they're both a class feature called "AC Bonus" that has a source of "{ability}-to-AC." Curmudgeon (unsurprisingly) argues this one a lot, but it appears to have support from Errata/FAQs/custserv or some other such thing. (Probably not specifically for battledancer, but for some of the other "AC Bonus" classes.)

If one argues that one "AC Bonus" class feature does not stack with another, I argue that one "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" class feature does not stack with another, one "Spells" class feature does not stack with another, etcetera.


I don't have (yet) any official ruling on it, but I read on BG that by RAW even Monk and Swordsage AC bonus stack. Personally I would rule that they don't stack, but Swordsage and Battle Dancer should be even more understandable to stack, because their features are different.

Doesn't the Swordsage entry specifically say it doesn't? :smallconfused:

Maybe if you sacrifice a feat for Kung Fu genius that they would...

[Anarchy_Kanya]

No, it doesn't. Ninjas does state that, though.

[Talya]

It would be irrelevant for the swordsage entry to mention it. It's already impossible for the swordsage Wisdom bonus to stack with Monk bonus, unless you can find a way to be considered wearing light armor for swordsage, and not wearing any armor for monk, at the same time.


If one argues that one "AC Bonus" class feature does not stack with another, I argue that one "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" class feature does not stack with another, one "Spells" class feature does not stack with another, etcetera.


Weapon and Armor proficiencies do not stack, they overlap. EG. A bard/fighter does not get longsword proficiency twice. They only get it once, along with every other martial proficiency that is on the bard's limited list, as well as the rest of them the fighter gets by himself. It does also get whip profiency, however. Same with two different types of spellcasting. A sorcerer 1/cleric 1 does not get Sorcerer 2 or cleric 2 spellcasting, but get one level of each.

[Morph Bark]

It would be irrelevant for the swordsage entry to mention it. It's already impossible for the swordsage Wisdom bonus to stack with Monk bonus, unless you can find a way to be considered wearing light armor for swordsage, and not wearing any armor for monk, at the same time.

Oh. My. God.

Dvati.


Weapon and Armor proficiencies do not stack, they overlap. EG. A bard/fighter does not get longsword proficiency twice. They only get it once, along with every other martial proficiency that is on the bard's limited list, as well as the rest of them the fighter gets by himself. It does also get whip profiency, however. Same with two different types of spellcasting. A sorcerer 1/cleric 1 does not get Sorcerer 2 or cleric 2 spellcasting, but get one level of each.

I know they overlap, but two class features named the same (AC Bonus) that don't say they don't stack, both provide unnamed bonuses and are from different sources do not. Hence why I said that if someone would argue that they would not stack, I would argue right back that proficiencies and spells do not stack by that logic.

[Talya]

I know they overlap, but two class features named the same (AC Bonus) that don't say they don't stack, both provide unnamed bonuses and are from different sources do not. Hence why I said that if someone would argue that they would not stack, I would argue right back that proficiencies and spells do not stack by that logic.

The argument is they are from the same source. The source is "a class feature called 'AC Bonus' that comes from ability scores."

And again, proficiencies and spellcasting do not stack, but rather overlap, so you'd be right if you argued that.