How do you handle LA and Monstrous PCs in YOUR games?

[Greymane]

I've been meaning to ask this here for quite some time but I've managed to forget about it most of the time until I don't have access to a computer.

Many of the people who post here have absolutely wonderful system mastery in the arena that is 3.5 D&D. Especially given this board is often a Free Advice Dispenser :smalltongue:

That said, I'm really rather curious how everyone handles Level Adjustment and Monstrous PCs in their games? Many monsters end up rather underwhelming in comparison to classed PCs of appropriate ECL to one another, and I'm wondering how many of you take measures to remedy that, and if so, what they might be?

As for me, I've yet to find a nice uniform method for it. Typically if a player is interested in playing a monster of some sort, they bring it to my attention, and inform me of the monster in question. From there I typically give them an ECL which is rather close to its CR (something I stole from Pathfinder), and assign a Point Buy I think is suitable. Unless the monster in question needs a lot of help in this regard, it's typically a 25 or 28 Pt. buy (Our games are often pretty generous with stats as well).

tl;dr: How do you handle Level Adjustments and Monstrous PCs? How do you got about assigning ECL?

[Kobold-Bard]

Personally I use the GitP classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192151) where possible, modifying where appropriate.

Beyond that, chop a couple of LA off if it's too high & LA Buyoff does the rest.

[Tvtyrant]

32 point buy -0 LA
28 point buy -1 LA
24 point buy - 2 LA
20 point buy - 3 LA

No LA buy off allowed; the character takes an overall hit in stats to get special racial abilities.

[Amphetryon]

For my games:

Regardless of starting level, everyone must start with at least one class level. This means I don't allow LA +1 or greater in games that start at 1st, unless the character is brought in later.

I don't allow any characters with monstrous HD in the game. I know they're all the rage in some circles, but I'm a grognard who wants to play a game where we're fighting against the monstrosities, not as them.

In rare circumstances where the player has a specific, well-defined concept in mind and I trust said player not to abuse it, I'll allow a high LA race to come in and have an "XP holding pattern" so that they're effectively paying off the XP by staying the character level they started at until folks start to catch up to their ECL. I know it's a houserule, and potentially unbalancing, but that's why I have the caveats about rarity, well-defined concept, and trust in there.

[Volthawk]

Personally I use the GitP classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192151) where possible, modifying where appropriate.

Yeah, we use them. Worked out alright so far and we've had a Nerra and still have a Gravetouched Ghoul in the party.

[Greymane]

Personally I use the GitP classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192151) where possible, modifying where appropriate.

Beyond that, chop a couple of LA off if it's too high & LA Buyoff does the rest.


Yeah, we use them. Worked out alright so far and we've had a Nerra and still have a Gravetouched Ghoul in the party.

I've looked at these before and I'm really impressed with the bulk of them. They lack the whole 'gobs of bonuses to ability scores!' that I find appealing with monstrous PCs, but it's a small price to pay for playing them from the get go, and having them built around functioning in interesting and fun ways in the hands of players.

[Kobold-Bard]

I've looked at these before and I'm really impressed with the bulk of them. They lack the whole 'gobs of bonuses to ability scores!' that I find appealing with monstrous PCs, but it's a small price to pay for playing them from the get go, and having them built around functioning in interesting and fun ways in the hands of players.

Some of the early ones might be a bit poorly balanced (Wild Hunt & Tarrasque being foremost in my mind), but in general most of them are pretty rockin' (especially mine :smallcool:)

And the lack of raw ability score bonuses was a conscious decision as they were considered to boring by most people, they were filler for if the critter needed them (Succubus Cha bonuses etc.) or you couldn't think of anything else to use.

[big teej]

I handle it on a case by case basis.


my general guideline is 'anything with LA + 0 OR +1 is fine'

as soon as a creature has RHD or LA greater than +1 they have to bring it to me.

now, depending on the creature, campaign, etc. etc. I'll offer 2 or more of the following options

"don't play it" is always one of my offers, typically delivered in the manner of "i'll let you do x, or y, or not don't play it"

in the instance of melee brutes (lets use ogres for my example)
depending on what level the rest of the party is at, I'll offer a prospective ogre player 1 of 2 options

if the party is above level 4, I will allow them to take the Ogre as a 4th level character (4 levels in giant) and then proceed forward normally, so a Ogre Barbarian1 would have 4 levels in giant (and thus 4 giant HD) and 1 barbarian HD

if the party is below the RHD of the creature (still using the ogre as the example)

I'll inquire as to how big an issue the race is to them.
assuming it's "I really, really, really, really wanna play"

I will go and create a "breakdown" of the creature's abilities. and spread them over the number of hit die.

for instance, the ogre's 1st level modifiers might be (typing from memory)

+ 2 strength, + 2 con, -all stat penalties- + things for having 1 giant hd (bab, saves, etc.)

and then I would increase them accordingly over the next 3 hit die, and at level 4, they would be exactly as a normal ogre.

[Optimator]

We use LA straight but allow buy-off as per UA, and we drop racial HD in the case of monstrous PCs and add an extra LA or so.

[SowZ]

Ignore RHD, (cut them out.) Be reasonable. That's about it.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

I love it when people don't search (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11710437#post11710437)yesterday's thread

[Volthawk]

I love it when people don't search (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11710437#post11710437)yesterday's thread

This thread was made before that thread.

[Talya]

Level Adjustment buyoff is a good idea, but sadly, works too well for the low level adjustment races/monsters, who hardly need it, but barely works at all for the higher level adjustment ones, who badly need it. There's just no effective way to play some monsters, where they will always be weaker than class levels.

[Andorax]

How do I handle it?

By the book. Without buyoff. And large doses of racial prejudice wherever you go.

I *hate* freakshows.

[Talya]

How do I handle it?

By the book. Without buyoff. And large doses of racial prejudice wherever you go.

I *hate* freakshows.

Sorta depends on the monster, now, doesn't it? I can't imagine a huge level of racial prejudice for a nymph, or an aasimar, etc.

Pretty Monsters > Scary Monsters.

[magwaaf]

i played a bugbear barbarian9/tempest5 for a few months before our campaign ended due to an well timed betrayal.. (i'm not bitter i swear) and we just ran it as me not using the bugbear hd i used the classes hd for everything.

by the way, for a +1 level adjustment, bugbears are retardedly good

[Xtomjames]

In my games I use LA as the pure number is, ignoring HD count, when it's available that is. Monsters without an LA but still look to be playable as a PC I use the CR as the LA instead. Pretty simple, reduces the pain of HD making it impossible to play characters even if their LA is reasonable.

[SowZ]

i played a bugbear barbarian9/tempest5 for a few months before our campaign ended due to an well timed betrayal.. (i'm not bitter i swear) and we just ran it as me not using the bugbear hd i used the classes hd for everything.

by the way, for a +1 level adjustment, bugbears are retardedly good

If you get rid of the 3d8 HD, Bugbears are pretty nice, yeah. Of course, you lose the Save bonus and BAB but the stats are fun.

[Grendus]

I'd go with the Pathfinder version where you use a monster's CR as it's ECL, with some adjustments (Dragons, for example, should only be allowed in a high OP game - Dragon RHD are kind of like partial gestalting NPC Warrior with Sorcerer, which is surprisingly good). I'd also, even in 3.5, use Pathfinder LA buy off. Buying off LA every 3 levels works pretty well, by the time you're fully caught up your allies have gotten enough class levels that the bonuses you got are meaningless.

[Calimehter]

Our group handles it "by the book" for the most part. No LA buyoff, no nuthin. Since we are a bunch of old 2nd ed. grognards, not having decent options for a lot of nontraditional races doesn't bother us much. *shrug*

[Andorax]

Sorta depends on the monster, now, doesn't it? I can't imagine a huge level of racial prejudice for a nymph, or an aasimar, etc.

Pretty Monsters > Scary Monsters.

I will admit that it's not a hardline rule (the racial prejudice part, anyways...I still play the LA/RHD by the book).

However, I seem to recall a certain pathfinder adventure (#1) where (spoiler)...

A young Aasimar woman was treated as some kind of 'reverse freak' by everyone in the town where she grew up...being asked to bless babies or give a hair clipping because the townsfolk though it might have magical properties. She grew up isolated, embittered, and generally hating everyone around her, wishing she was 'normal'.

It got a LOT worse from there.

So, long story short, even pretty monsters can run into serious problems when being forced to deal with the general mass of humanity.

[molten_dragon]

For level adjusted races, I allow LA buyoff. It just seems to work better. Generally when starting up a new campaign, I'll tell the PCs how much of a level adjustment they're allowed to have. Usually equal to approximately half the starting level of the campaign. The exception is if it's a campaign starting at level 1. In that case, I'll usually allow +1 LA races, but it means you start off as a member of whatever NPC class matches most closely to whatever PC class you'll end up taking, and at level 2 your NPC level turns into a PC level.

The issue of playing monster classes and stuff with racial hit dice has never come up. I've never had a single player ask to play something like that.

[Gnaeus]

I eyeball how much I think it is worth. For most races/templates, that usually means I reduce LA by one or more. For a few, it actually goes up.

The goal that I am aiming at is that it is good enough that it would be a viable option to an optimizer looking at the numbers, but not so good that it eclipses other options.

[Okizruin]

I eyeball how much I think it is worth. For most races/templates, that usually means I reduce LA by one or more. For a few, it actually goes up.

The goal that I am aiming at is that it is good enough that it would be a viable option to an optimizer looking at the numbers, but not so good that it eclipses other options.

Can I please see a few examples? Let's say, use the half-celestial template, which is considered +4 LA under RAW.

[Kefkafreak]

I ignore racial hit dice and use the given LA.

[HunterOfJello]

I set up a game that hasn't gotten started yet with a somewhat long list of preapproved monster races from MM, MM3, XPH, CP, MoI, and some other books. I was going to consider any LA +1 monsters as LA +0 and ban all the PHB races.

It was going to have the sterotypical plot of a group of monsters being released/escaping from the clutches of the traditional Illithid Blackguard turned Paladin along with his recently turned Good-Aligned Beholder mount after they discover a powerful Helm of Opposite Alignment. The Illithid would then go around forcing the PCs into doing random acts of good on his behalf.

Anyway. I think a good start is to reanalyze different monster races from the books and set up a list of approved monsters that will have their LAs forgiven or reduced if you're interested in setting up Monstrous PCs. Setting a game with all monstrous PCs is probably better for doing this than having some PHB races mixed with monstrous races. Readjusting the LAs for some monsters would also be a big help like reducing Blues to LA +0.

TL;DR: Make a list of approved races as a start and then work from there.
~

If you're a bit lazy, (like I was when setting up my current campaign) then you can always cop out and just use the Pathfinder stats for different races since those are already readjusted to give everyone a sort of LA +1/2. That way people can play all sorts of monstrous races without getting in eachothers hair.

[LordBlades]

In my group we usually just use the LA buyoff as nobody is really interested in playing stuff with more than +2 LA. We've tried doing 'monster games' where a certain amount of LA and RHD doesn't get taken into account but they didn't really last long.

[Tyndmyr]

I allow both LA buyoffs and savage species progressions. Got a wild party getting together now, thanks to this campaigns stipulation of non-core.

Looks like a vampire legendary leader, a minotaur/were-bear/brown bear lycanthrope that will be lucky to ever get a PC class, A Half dragon dragonwrought kobold DFA. Possibly with more dragon. A half dragon lesser tiefling crusader....and one unknown as of yet.

I plan to make the buyoff chart top out at the +3 buyoff rate(every six levels), giving those with higher buyoffs a reasonable chance to dispense with some of the hit.