Pathfinder:Attacking with Mage Hand

[Communard]

So, Mage Hand allows you to move/fling an object under 5lb. Many weapons are under 5lb. Yet nowhere can I find rules for throwing a dagger at someone with Mage Hand (for example). Is it just treated as a normal attack? What about doing it while hidden, do the enemies get a perception check to notice the dagger? Are you removed from stealth even though you could be staying behind cover? Or is this something we will just have to houserule in :smallsmile:

[TurtleKing]

If you want to attack using Mage Hand you probably be using it for splash weapons. Because it only exhibits upto 5lbs. of thrust you can't get much force behind the attack.

[Cog]

There are no rules for such attacks because you're not intended to be able to make such attacks. You can provide enough force to the item to make it drift slowly, but you cannot put enough force behind it to actually injure somebody.

[TurtleKing]

Unless you drop something on someone like say a bomb?

[Hiro Protagonest]

There are no rules for such attacks because you're not intended to be able to make such attacks. You can provide enough force to the item to make it drift slowly, but you cannot put enough force behind it to actually injure somebody.

20 feet in 6 seconds is a slow drift?

[Gavinfoxx]

Just so you know, there are various spells in original 3.5e that let you use magic to throw things AND make attack rolls. Telekenesis, Launch Bolt, Launch Item, stuff like that.

[Cog]

20 feet in 6 seconds is a slow drift?
It's 15, not 20, by the source I'm looking at (is d20pfsrd.com reliable?). That's less than a halfling's speed, so yeah, slow.

[TurtleKing]

Well if want to say use it in the middle of combat then yea not much luck on what you can do there, but setting up some kind of trap or another to get the first blood then works just fine. Besides who doesn't find it funny when you drop a 5 lb. pot or tip one off a ledge onto someone's head?

[Prime32]

Cantrips are supposed to be limited, and can't be used to deal damage unless stated otherwise.

There are spells similar to mage hand which deal damage though - launch item is lv1. Say it's an extension of mage hand which requires more energy if you want.

[Communard]

So it can't be used to inflict damage? That's a bit odd...To be minorly pedantic, you can propel the object 30 feet in 6 seconds, since you can use 2 move actions per turn. What about if a weapon was dropped on someone, would a dagger falling point down deal the same ammount of damage as a small stone? Regardless, I like the idea of using it to throw bombs and so on, hadn't thought of that. I'm going to be playing as a class that can only cast cantrips first level (Apprentice), so I am trying to get all the use out of them that I can.

[TurtleKing]

Yea using it to drop may or may not work depending on height and what not. So you may hit the target or someone else. Thats is why splash weapons work best here since they cover an area, but collateral damage and friendly fire should also be anticipated. Mage Hand in that regard is best used to manipulate the environment so can set off a "trap", or even a chain of them for even great effects. The key here is your creativity.

[Talentless]

So it can't be used to inflict damage? That's a bit odd...To be minorly pedantic, you can propel the object 30 feet in 6 seconds, since you can use 2 move actions per turn. What about if a weapon was dropped on someone, would a dagger falling point down deal the same ammount of damage as a small stone? Regardless, I like the idea of using it to throw bombs and so on, hadn't thought of that. I'm going to be playing as a class that can only cast cantrips first level (Apprentice), so I am trying to get all the use out of them that I can.

Look at the bolded part, and think for a moment.

Then realizing that 30 feet in six seconds is 5 Feet per second, look up average flight speed of a throwing knife (Note: The LOWEST speed of a ranged weapon that could possibly injure someone beyond a bruise).
(/edit for the lazy people, it averages anywhere from 54-65 feet per second, around double what mage hand can produce
/double edit. Man i'm waaaay too tired right now, failed math miserably, it is many many times what mage hand can produce. Thanks for the catch)

Then realize you answered your own question as to why Mage hand can't be used to propel a weapon at enough speed to injure someone.

Then, unless I missed something else, Mage Hand theoretically could be used to drop something to injure an opponent, but i would rule it as a surprise round only attack. Simply by the nature of how you'd get the mage hand weapon above your enemies' heads, the speed the hand moves, and how a dropped weapon will
A) Not be balanced for falling pointy end first, likely to fall pommel first really.
and
B)Fall only in a straight line from where it is dropped.

Those factors pretty much make Mage Hand not able to attack.

That said, I can think of many uses of Mage Hand in conjunction with a trapmaker and some pre set defensive combat style encounters, but no real offensive applications come to mind.

[Prime32]

Plus the argument that it can deal damage because of its speed uses the same logic as the commoner railgun. Don't try bringing real-world physics into D&D - if things worked that way then dragons would collapse under their own weight then explode.

[Knaight]

Then realizing that 30 feet in six seconds is 5 Feet per second, look up average flight speed of a throwing knife (Note: The LOWEST speed of a ranged weapon that could possibly injure someone beyond a bruise).
(/edit for the lazy people, it averages anywhere from 54-65 feet per second, around double what mage hand can produce)

54-65 ft/s is not twice 5ft/s. It is 10.8-13 times the speed of 5 feet per second, or 11-13 accounting for significant figures. Note that that is also low speed, one can basically expect an arrow to travel at 175 ft/s.

Also, kinetic energy has velocity as a squared component. Meaning that those projectiles approximately 11 to 13 times as fast, are also approximately 120-170 times as energetic, again accounting for significant figures.

[TurtleKing]

That is why you use some kind of explosive after it is thown or more likely dropped.

[Communard]

Plus the argument that it can deal damage because of its speed uses the same logic as the commoner railgun. Don't try bringing real-world physics into D&D - if things worked that way then dragons would collapse under their own weight then explode.

Well, it isn't really, the commoner railgun is a complete rejection of real-world physics because, well, it's impossible in real life because passing things doesn't work that way :p. Whereas something thrown at the right speed (which mage hand can't attain, sadly) hurting someone is perfectly logical. I'm just trying to be creative because I'm stuck with a rather under-powered build for first level. Also Dragons are magical creatures, I assume there is some magical reason they are stable.

[Psyren]

20 feet in 6 seconds is a slow drift?

Just so you're aware, 1 ft/second is roughly equivalent to 0.7 mph. So 20ft./6 seconds would be roughly equal to 2.3mph. That's slower than a turtle on land.

[Prime32]

Also Dragons are magical creatures, I assume there is some magical reason they are stable.Yet there can't be some magical reason that a spell can't do that? :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

The Commoner Railgun fails, not because it violates physics (plenty of things in D&D do that) but because it is trying to apply and reject physics simultaneously. Either physics works, in which case you can't pass items that fast to begin with, or it doesn't work, in which case the item being passed doesn't build any momentum and there is no massive force/explosion at the end of the chain.

[Knaight]

Yet there can't be some magical reason that a spell can't do that? :smalltongue:

There are plenty of spells that can throw an object around and make it dangerous. Mage Hand simply isn't one of them.


Just so you're aware, 1 ft/second is roughly equivalent to 0.7 mph. So 20ft./6 seconds would be roughly equal to 2.3mph. That's slower than a turtle on land.
Its around 2/3 the typical walking speed, which means that dodging something like this is completely trivial. If one assumes you need .5 seconds for a full dodge (a high estimate), this would have to be thrown from less than about a foot and a half away to make contact. That's really rather pathetic.