Level Adjustment

[Drakevarg]

Been doing some thinking about level adjustment, mostly because I have a preference for monsters with class levels, and it bothers me more and more the longer I think about it.

Is LA a measure of a monster's power beyond its HD, or is it a measure of how much the Devs don't want you to play as one?

The primary example I've been dwelling on is the Bearded Devil, as it's a fairly common enemy in my campaign. It has a CR of 5, but an ECL of 13. I really, really doubt your average 13th level NPC is a balanced encounter for the average 5th level party, so clearly something's amiss.

Does anyone know a decent rule of thumb for adjusting LA to more accurately reflect a monster's power compared to the average PHB-grown adventurer?

[Lord Ruby34]

Remember, DMs are supposed to ignore LA when adding class levels.

Of course the system doesn't work for what it was intended to do anyway.

[Drakevarg]

Remember, DMs are supposed to ignore LA when adding class levels.

Of course the system doesn't work for what it was intended to do anyway.

I do as a DM, but it's also handy if I want to let my players play as monster races without subsequently sucking up a storm.

[tyckspoon]

or is it a measure of how much the Devs don't want you to play as one?

This, roughly.

Theoretically the difference between the LA and the CR adjustment is the measure of how much more useful the creature's abilities are when used repeatedly by a persistant PC as opposed to what is typically a one-shot enemy- things like the DR, poison immunity, energy resistances/immunities, and especially the at-will Greater Teleport are likely to be much more relevant when the devil is the character instead of the encounter; when you encounter one, you make a Knowledge check, you realize that they're immune to fire, and you just don't cast fire at it. When it's the character, it's much more likely to be running into things that don't *have* the option of just not using fire (or poison), in which case that immunity allows you to null an enemy's power completely instead of the PC response of 'well, I've got something else that'll work.'

[Lord Ruby34]

Except that it doesn't actually work well at all for that. Usually the PC's end up too weak, or rarely too strong. There are very few balanced LAs out there.

[Drakevarg]

Except that it doesn't actually work well at all for that. Usually the PC's end up too weak, or rarely too strong. There are very few balanced LAs out there.

Hence why I'm asking for some sort of how-to guide to adjusting it so it DOES work.

[Lord Ruby34]

I'd look at it on a case by case basis and judge as best you can. You know your players and your game better than we do.

[Studoku]

http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/ECLcalc.html

This is an ECL calculator I found (probably because it was posted here) a while ago. Put the stats into it and you'll probably get a better ECL than the book gives.

I still wouldn't take it at face value- it does still need to be judged on a case by case basis- but it's at least less haphazard than Wizards' system which may actually involve rolling whatever dice is nearest.

[Urpriest]

LA is definitely a measure of how little they want you to play a given monster: look at the Vampire at LA +8. The problem is that largely they're right: Greater Teleport at-will is not an appropriate ability for a PC whose other stats are the same as a Bearded Devil. It will either be overpowered or underpowered.

The solution to this (and also potentially to the overpowered nature of Polymorph and Planar Binding derivatives) is to rebuild monsters in the vein of PC classes, giving them level-appropriate abilities. The various Monster Class projects on this forum and Brilliant Gameologists are an example of this.

[Drakevarg]

The solution to this (and also potentially to the overpowered nature of Polymorph and Planar Binding derivatives) is to rebuild monsters in the vein of PC classes, giving them level-appropriate abilities.

Problem with this is that unless you consider it some sort of extremely convenient puberty or something, it doesn't make since to give a member of a race anything but all-or-nothing in regards to their innate abilities.

And even if you did do it with class levels, you'd still wind up with loads of empty levels before you reached the point where the at-will greater teleport is level-appropriate. Leaving you with exactly the same problem.

[CockroachTeaParty]

The primary example I've been dwelling on is the Bearded Devil, as it's a fairly common enemy in my campaign. It has a CR of 5, but an ECL of 13. I really, really doubt your average 13th level NPC is a balanced encounter for the average 5th level party, so clearly something's amiss.


Technically, the final ECL more closely resembles a bearded devil with the Elite Array and the equipment of a 13th level NPC, so it probably wouldn't be a CR 5 challenge anymore. Probably not a CR 13 challenge either, but still.

[Urpriest]

Problem with this is that unless you consider it some sort of extremely convenient puberty or something, it doesn't make since to give a member of a race anything but all-or-nothing in regards to their innate abilities.

And even if you did do it with class levels, you'd still wind up with loads of empty levels before you reached the point where the at-will greater teleport is level-appropriate. Leaving you with exactly the same problem.

Check out the threads in question. The idea is to give them abilities that are thematically appropriate, not the same ones. Ideally (my ideal, not theirs) you would use the new monsters for NPC foes as well, so all monsters would have the new, balanced abilities. And they still can start at max level, the idea of leveling up through the class is separate.

[Dusk Eclipse]

IIRC there was a rule that all monster classes where as long as the creature's CR, so a Bearded Devil (CR 5) would be a 5 level long monster class.

[Togath]

Pathfinder often does that(the CR as the ecl if I remember correctly), as do most of the monster class threads here, another rule of thumb I use is this; if the level adjustment equals one third of the creature's HD, so it maxes out at about 15HD and a +5 level adjustment, with a higher variable the creature is usually one WotC didn't want people playing very much, or one with oddly powered abilities, for those it's usually better to homebrew a monster class for them.

[Godskook]

Problem is, monsters aren't designed to the same specifications as PCs. PCs are meant to handle many encounters, often 4+ in a day, but usually of a level that's only leaving scratches and bruises. Playing a troll, for instance, drastically changes early game play, cause having the ability to shrug off everything but fire and acid is just flat OP on a PC, but is barely noteworthy on a CR 5 monster.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

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All of the above are very true.

As has been stated, it is a easy to gather fact that the CR system just does not work for any number of reasons. LA is kind of a handwave "Well, if you're at this level, sure why not, be a literal devil!" pre-built into the system. A lot of the time it is wrong, simply because what is "right" can vary wildly table-to-table.

EDIT: Of course, +1 LA races and templates are usually considered "worth it" for one reason or another simply because they actually offer something more or different - then there's the whole LA buy-off, too.