Incarnate (Good or Lawful) build suggestions?

[Chilingsworth]

Ok, based on suggestions from an earlier thread, I'm considering builds for a Good aligned incarnate.

For story purposes, I'd like to make the character an elf, though a custom race:

Ability Modifiers: +2 INT, -2 STR
Special Abilities: Medium, base land speed 30, immune to sleep effects, +2 racial bonus to saves against enchantments, low light vision, martial proficiency with long sword, rapier, long bow and short bow, +2 on CL checks to overcome spell resistance, +2 on appraise checks to identify magical items,
Favored Classes: Archivist, Wizard
Bonus Class Skill: Pick Any Knowledge

Also, I'll have three bonus feats coming to me, one each at 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level, form the following list (some of which are homebrew):

Agile - Benefit: +2 balance and escape artist checks.
Agile Athlete climb 1, jump 1, swim 1 Benefit: use DEX instead of STR for climb, jump, and swim checks.
Agile Maneuvers - You use your DEX instead of STR for purposes of CMB
Ancient Elven Secrets Elf w/concentration check, go 24 hours w/ food, water or rest.

Ancient Enemies o’Woodlands Elf, BA +1 +2 racial bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls against orcs and drow.
Arcane Thesis Arcana 9, arcane spells. Choose 1 spell, +2 caster level, metamagics cost 1 LV less.
Calming Trance of the Ancients Elf, Concentration 4, When at ½ HP, auto make concentration checks to cast spells defensively.
Elven Spell Lore INT 17 or Elf, arcana 12, WIZ +2 CL with dispel magic, pick spell, deals different energy type
Elven Wisdom of the Ages Elf, WIS 13, 1/D per WIS duration of anch, necro or transm effect on you reduced to 1 R.
Eschew Materials - Cast spells without material component, if component costs 1 gp or less.
Heighten Spell - +? Spell lv, the spell is considered to be that level.
Inspire Spellpower perform 8, BM standard BM +1 to caster level of ally while you perform + 5 rounds after. Lightfeet Elf, dex 13, balance 2, MS 2 DCto track you +5, no move silently penalties for noisy terrain.
Magic Aptitude - Benefit: gain +2 on spellcraft and use magic device checks.
Nimble Fingers - +2 on disable device and open lock checks.
No, Really, I Hit Elf 1/E reroll attack roll that missed with ranged weapon/ranged spell.
One with Nature Elf +3 to hide and move silently in an outdoor and natural environment
Oral History - Benefit: +2 perform and knowledge history (all) checks.
Point Blank Shot - +1 on attack and damage with ranged weapons in within 30’.
Poison Crafter Craft Poison 8, Charact LV 5, You can craft poisons.
Second Wind - 1/E as a move action heal hit points = to you hit dice + CON modifier.
Self-Sufficient - Benefit: +2 on heal and survival checks
Stealthy - Benefit: +2 on hide and move silently checks.
Student of the Ages Elf, history 1, arcana 1 +3 to history and arcana checks.
Woodwise - No penalty to heavy undergrowth, in wooded areas, +1 dodge to AC.


Further, my DM has improved incarnate somewhat, giving the class cleric BAB and 4+int skills.

I'd like the character to be able to do well as a trapfinder. Other than taking rogue levels (which might not be a bad idea, since the class gets a whopping 10+int skill points in my DM's world,) is there any way for me to get search and disable device as class skills (as an elf?)

I'll be starting at either 5th or 6th level, though only lv1 starting gear (though I'll get max gold rather than rolling and get an extra 10% on top of that, for what little it's worth.) 32 point buy.

In addition to significant amounts of homebrew (which I'll factor in myself as needed, as best I can,) I can use most of: Core, the Completes (but no Lion Totem Barbarian) Races of the Wild, Races of Destiny, Spell Compendium, and of course, Magic of Incarnum.

[Darrin]

I'd like the character to be able to do well as a trapfinder. Other than taking rogue levels (which might not be a bad idea, since the class gets a whopping 10+int skill points in my DM's world,) is there any way for me to get search and disable device as class skills (as an elf?)


Incarnates already have Knowledge (the Planes) as a class skill, so put 8 ranks in that, pick up a touchstone key (250 GP), and take the Planar Touchstone feat at ECL 6. Link it to the Catalogues of Enlightenment, and pick the Kobold domain power = trapfinding, search, and disable device.

If the Planar Handbook isn't allowed... check if you can use the Trap Expert ACF in Dungeonscape and dip Ranger for 1 level.

[Chilingsworth]

Incarnates already have Knowledge (the Planes) as a class skill, so put 8 ranks in that, pick up a touchstone key (250 GP), and take the Planar Touchstone feat at ECL 6. Link it to the Catalogues of Enlightenment, and pick the Kobold domain power = trapfinding, search, and disable device.

If the Planar Handbook isn't allowed... check if you can use the Trap Expert ACF in Dungeonscape and dip Ranger for 1 level.

Thanks for those tips, but 1. I wont have the cash for the planar touchstone, and 2. while the ACF might be allowed, it isn't on the list of ACFs for my desired culture, therefore, it wont be allowed for me.

I'm starting to think Rog 1/Incarnate 4/ rog 1/ incarnate X might be a good build for my purposes.

Abilities (including racial adjustments and +1 from level into Con): Str 8, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 8

Any better ideas?

[Fouredged Sword]

There is an app soulmeld for that!

If you can wait a bit - thief gloves works to get you exactly what you are looking for.

Incarnate is very focused on it's own abilities ang isn't that versitile until you get good bindes.

If you can't wait a bit -
I would suggest you ether dip incarnate and go thief - rogue 1/ incarnate 1 / rogue x OR dip rogue and go pure incarnate - Rogue 1 / Incarnate 19. A single level of rogue gives you access to craven, and that is worth the loss of a level of incarnate of you want to be rogue like.

Meld thief gloves for rogue trap skills, something that boosts hide/move silent, and something that grants cool abilites.

Rogue 2 is only needed of you can't wait for a ring of evasion.

[Chilingsworth]

There is an app soulmeld for that!

If you can wait a bit - thief gloves works to get you exactly what you are looking for.

Incarnate is very focused on it's own abilities ang isn't that versitile until you get good bindes.

If you can't wait a bit -
I would suggest you ether dip incarnate and go thief - rogue 1/ incarnate 1 / rogue x OR dip rogue and go pure incarnate - Rogue 1 / Incarnate 19. A single level of rogue gives you access to craven, and that is worth the loss of a level of incarnate of you want to be rogue like.

Meld thief gloves for rogue trap skills, something that boosts hide/move silent, and something that grants cool abilites.

Rogue 2 is only needed of you can't wait for a ring of evasion.

I can't count on being able to get a ring of evasion! We have no readily accessable item shop, and even if we did, magic items only sell for 25% in this campaign.

Also, I know there's a soulmeld that grants evasion.

OK, so what I really need is a way to get the required skills as class skills. With my int and the boost my DM gave to incarnate skill points, I should be fine on those.

[Fouredged Sword]

You should be able to keep pace with a rogue without to much trouble just shapeing thief gloves and putting some essence there when needed.

Non humans have a hard time getting non-class skills as class skills. I honestly wouldn't worry about it. Search and disable device are out of combat skill checks vs static DC's. Hide and move silent are more inportant for a roguelike character to max out.

I would just put 4 ranks in each during character creation. Thief gloves will easily give you a +10 disable device and search before stat modifiers at level 2 anyway. Just get a high int and cross class them from there. Hide, move silent, disable device and search are all boostable by soulmelds, and with a little cross class investment you will put any rogue to shame.

[Keld Denar]

Sorry I'm late to the show.

I'd also recommend the single Rogue1 dip. Unlike ToB, Incarnum doesn't multiclass QUITE as well, so you want to minimize level loss.

On top of the Thief Gloves (as recommended), I was gonna recommend being a bit of an archer, but Sighting Gloves are the same meld slot, which would be the other big source of to-hit/damage.

One thing to keep in mind is that Good Incarnates are kinda lackluster with their aura. You give bonus AC, which isn't really that helpful for everyone, and even if it is helpful, might not be enough to matter. +To-hit (Law) and +damage (Chaos) is generally a better choice.

Something to consider might be a Cloistered Cleric dip and pick up Protection Devotion (along with Turn Undead to power it). Flash your aura, throw up Protection Devotion, and you could be handing out a decently large bonus to AC, enough to actually matter.

As far as your other soulmelds...there really isn't anything that you really need. Go wild and try some different stuff out. I like Incarnate Weapon a lot, especially bound. If you can stun your foe on the first hit, you can get SA on all other attacks in the round (such as Haste attacks since your BAB won't be high). I'd go with other defensive stuff. Astral Vambraces (Mind's Eye web enhancement) give a decent source of DR, while Adamant Paudrons give partial fortification, etc. Play around with some of the healing melds or mobility melds and otherwise just have fun.

[Fouredged Sword]

With a one level dip of rogue you no longer need to bind thief gloves as you already have trapfinding. There is no reason to not also have sighting gloves.

[Chilingsworth]

With a one level dip of rogue you no longer need to bind thief gloves as you already have trapfinding. There is no reason to not also have sighting gloves.

Wait, I can have two hand-related soulmelds shaped at the same time?

(Of course, I wont have the ability to shape a second soulmeld until Incarnate level 6, so I'll have to wait a little while.)

As for my choice of alignment, it's for party cohesion reasons, and because I find it difficult to roleplay a lawful alignment, especially lawful neutral alignment. Then again, I suppose I could try expanding my rp repetoire.

[Keld Denar]

No, you can't. Not without a feat, at least.

What he was saying was if you took the Rogue1 dip instead of shaping Thief Gloves, that would free up your need to shape Thief Gloves so you could bind Sighting Gloves instead.

[Chilingsworth]

No, you can't. Not without a feat, at least.

What he was saying was if you took the Rogue1 dip instead of shaping Thief Gloves, that would free up your need to shape Thief Gloves so you could bind Sighting Gloves instead.

Oh, I still want Theft Gloves for the skill bonus, I just don't need to bind them, now.

[Fouredged Sword]

You can SHAPE two soulmelds at the same time even if both can be bound to your hands so long as you have enough soulmeld slots left based on your character. You can only BIND one of them to your hands chakra.

You can have thief gloves SHAPED, and put essence into it to recive the bonus to skill checks. You can also have Sighting Gloves SHAPED at the same time and put essence into it for that bonus (I forget the specifics). You may bind only one of the two to your hands without a feat (double bind)

[kestrel404]

...I never noticed that before. Sweet!

OK, so aside from that, I'm also going to recommend the Rogue 1/Incarnate X build. Don't lose out on more than the 1 level of incarnate shaping - it's not worth it. Although another path to go that's equally valid would be:

Beguiler 2/Incarnate 3/Soul Caster X - you'd need to have the versatile spellcaster and Incarnum Spellshaping feats, but you'd get beguiler spellcasting on top of plentiful soulmelds, with Trapfinding thrown in as a nice bonus.

As for evasion - bind impulse boots. They're a very decent soulmeld (uncanny dodge + evasion + essentia to reflex saves) and well worth having on this type of character.

[Chilingsworth]

You can SHAPE two soulmelds at the same time even if both can be bound to your hands so long as you have enough soulmeld slots left based on your character. You can only BIND one of them to your hands chakra.

You can have thief gloves SHAPED, and put essence into it to recive the bonus to skill checks. You can also have Sighting Gloves SHAPED at the same time and put essence into it for that bonus (I forget the specifics). You may bind only one of the two to your hands without a feat (double bind)

Ok, thanks!

So, on to actual builds?

My first attempt would be: Rog1/Incarnate5

Feats: 1st: Point Blank Shot, 3rd: Precise Shot, 6th: Shape Soulmeld (Theft Gloves) Racial (see racial characteristics spoiler): 1st Elven Wisdom of the Ages, 2nd No, Really, I Hit; 3rd Nimble Fingers

If my DM okays it, take Craven instead of shape soulmeld.

Equipment: Longbow, Leather Armor, Thief's Tools, standard adventuring gear, to be upgraded if I ever get the chance.

[Chilingsworth]

...I never noticed that before. Sweet!

OK, so aside from that, I'm also going to recommend the Rogue 1/Incarnate X build. Don't lose out on more than the 1 level of incarnate shaping - it's not worth it. Although another path to go that's equally valid would be:

Beguiler 2/Incarnate 3/Soul Caster X - you'd need to have the versatile spellcaster and Incarnum Spellshaping feats, but you'd get beguiler spellcasting on top of plentiful soulmelds, with Trapfinding thrown in as a nice bonus.

As for evasion - bind impulse boots. They're a very decent soulmeld (uncanny dodge + evasion + essentia to reflex saves) and well worth having on this type of character.

My DM throws DMGs at players that suggest early-entry shenigans, sadly. Still would build work be worth it with a beguiler 4 entry?

[Fouredged Sword]

You can shape thief gloves on the baises that you are an incarnate. No need to fiddle around with a feat for it.

Instead consider shape Soulmeld blink shirt for unlimited teleport, or warg pelt for +lots to hide/move silent(very roguey skills)

[Keld Denar]

You can SHAPE two soulmelds at the same time even if both can be bound to your hands so long as you have enough soulmeld slots left based on your character. You can only BIND one of them to your hands chakra.

You can have thief gloves SHAPED, and put essence into it to recive the bonus to skill checks. You can also have Sighting Gloves SHAPED at the same time and put essence into it for that bonus (I forget the specifics). You may bind only one of the two to your hands without a feat (double bind)

Incorrect. I reference you to page 50, right column, under "Meld Selection".


<snip> Also, two soulmelds can't occupy the same chakra (with some exceptions). <snip>

This is in the section on SHAPING, not BINDING. Shaped soulmelds occupy a chakra slot, even when not bound to that chakra slot. Shaped soulmelds do not interfere with magic items, though, unlike bound soulmelds.

And yea, I guess I wasn't thinking about Beguiler/Soulcaster. That IS kinda neat. You think your DM will be that anti-early entry? Its only 2 levels, and keeps you more "incarnum with a side of beguiler" rather than "beguiler with a side of incarnum". It still costs you a feat, so it shouldn't be a HUGE issue, IMO.

[Fouredged Sword]

Can nither of those melds occupy another slot than the hands? When you aren not binding it doesn't matter what slot they are in.

[Tenebris]

You can SHAPE two soulmelds at the same time even if both can be bound to your hands so long as you have enough soulmeld slots left based on your character. You can only BIND one of them to your hands chakra.

You can have thief gloves SHAPED, and put essence into it to recive the bonus to skill checks. You can also have Sighting Gloves SHAPED at the same time and put essence into it for that bonus (I forget the specifics). You may bind only one of the two to your hands without a feat (double bind)

Actually... no.

Two soulmelds cannot occupy the same chakra, and both Sighting Gloves and Thief Gloves can occupy only hands. Remember that when you shape a soulmeld, it must occupy a specific chakra, those are not given merely for the purpose of binds

EDIT: For evasion, bind Impulse boots to your feet, as mentioned before.

Furthermore, try to convince DM to allow Vow of Poverty. As I understand, you play a low magic campaign, so it might be useful. It's not like you will be able to wear many magic items anyway :smallsmile:

[kestrel404]

My DM throws DMGs at players that suggest early-entry shenigans, sadly. Still would build work be worth it with a beguiler 4 entry?

Beguiler 4/Incarnate 2 is a perfectly valid entry with no shenanigans - I dislike it only because Beguiler 4 is a dead level - no class features other than 2nd level spells. However, if the GM won't let you use Versatile Spellcaster to qualify for 2nd level spells then it will work nicely and it saves you a feat - also nets a couple of extra skill points, though that hardly matters.

If you can manage VoP, it would work out nicely for you, but it's not necessary.

[Chilingsworth]

And yea, I guess I wasn't thinking about Beguiler/Soulcaster. That IS kinda neat. You think your DM will be that anti-early entry? Its only 2 levels, and keeps you more "incarnum with a side of beguiler" rather than "beguiler with a side of incarnum". It still costs you a feat, so it shouldn't be a HUGE issue, IMO.

I agree, but I'm pretty darn sure my DM doesn't like early entry methods. Besides which, even if he aceeded to the idea that versatile spellcaster grants the apporpriate level spell slots, without 2nd level spells known, he'd say I can't actually cast "2nd level spells." I suppose hieghten spell might fix that, but then it's two feats.

[Chilingsworth]

Furthermore, try to convince DM to allow Vow of Poverty. As I understand, you play a low magic campaign, so it might be useful. It's not like you will be able to wear many magic items anyway :smallsmile:

BOED is specifically not used by my group. Just as well, since I wouldn't want to bother with the headache of playing an Exalted character with my party, anyway.

Also, we're not in a low magic campaign, per say, it's more of "We have next to no control over what magic items we get, so I don't want to count on any." We certainly have pleanty of caster-type characters around.

So, a revised build?

Beguiler 4/ Incarnate 2
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 21 (18 +2 racial, +1 lv4), Wis 13, Cha 8

Feats: 1st? 3rd ? 6th Expanded Soulmeld Capacity

Racial Bonus Feats (See racial characteristics spoiler in OP)

1st: Spellcaster Prodigy (int) 2nd: Elven Wisdom of the Ages, 3rd Nimble Fingers

Equipment (remember, 110% maxt 1st level gold is all I get.) ???

[Big Fau]

Beguiler/Incarnate into Soulcaster? Consider Arcane Disciple (Incarnum). MAD, but you will get a lot of mileage out of it.


Also, pick up Able Learner.



With regards to the magic item problems: You may wish to get an Artificer buddy. Everyone needs magic items, and the Artificer makes it so you have them.

[Keld Denar]

I agree, but I'm pretty darn sure my DM doesn't like early entry methods. Besides which, even if he aceeded to the idea that versatile spellcaster grants the apporpriate level spell slots, without 2nd level spells known, he'd say I can't actually cast "2nd level spells." I suppose hieghten spell might fix that, but then it's two feats.

Except for the fact that Beguilers know their whole list as soon as they are able to cast them. Thus, if you have a 2nd level spell slot (via Versatile Spellcaster) then you know 2nd level spells. That is one advantage a Beguiler has over a Sorcerer WRT Versatile Spellcaster use.

[Fouredged Sword]

The above statement is debated. Your DM sounds the type to shoot it down.

[Big Fau]

Except for the fact that Beguilers know their whole list as soon as they are able to cast them. Thus, if you have a 2nd level spell slot (via Versatile Spellcaster) then you know 2nd level spells. That is one advantage a Beguiler has over a Sorcerer WRT Versatile Spellcaster use.

Versatile Spellcaster does not give spell slots. It uses two lower level slots to cast a higher level spell, but never gives a higher level spell slot.

[Chilingsworth]

Beguiler/Incarnate into Soulcaster? Consider Arcane Disciple (Incarnum). MAD, but you will get a lot of mileage out of it.


Also, pick up Able Learner.



With regards to the magic item problems: You may wish to get an Artificer buddy. Everyone needs magic items, and the Artificer makes it so you have them.

I thought Able Learner is human-only? (I'm using high-elf.) As for Leadership, we've already got a 7-person party. Leadership is not available.

[Big Fau]

I thought Able Learner is human-only? (I'm using high-elf.) As for Leadership, we've already got a 7-person party. Leadership is not available.

Ah, didn't see the racial choice.


Is there a reason for being an Elf? Not particularly good for meldshaping or spellcasting, especially because you are using the generic PHB one.

[Chilingsworth]

Ah, didn't see the racial choice.


Is there a reason for being an Elf? Not particularly good for meldshaping or spellcasting, especially because you are using the generic PHB one.

The reason I'm playing an elf is that another of my characters (we're each playing with two, which are divided into two teams as part of a larger mercanary company) Broke the local laws. This character has been sent from his home city to keep an eye on my other character.

Also, I'm NOT using the PHB elf:

Ability Modifiers: +2 INT, -2 STR
Special Abilities: Medium, base land speed 30, immune to sleep effects, +2 racial bonus to saves against enchantments, low light vision, martial proficiency with long sword, rapier, long bow and short bow, +2 on CL checks to overcome spell resistance, +2 on appraise checks to identify magical items,
Favored Classes: Archivist, Wizard
Bonus Class Skill: Pick Any Knowledge

Also, I'll get three racial bonus feats from the list in the spoiler in the OP.

[kestrel404]

In order to get into Soulcaster, you need to have the Incarnum Spellshaping feat - which is not written with non-core spellcasters in mind, but whose intent is clearly to add the incarnum spells to the class list of whatever spellcasting class you're entering soulcaster with.

If your GM is willing to accept that interpretation (it's pretty reasonable, as otherwise all the feat would let you do is cast the spells off of scrolls/wands with UMD), then you'll get a lot more mileage out of that feat than the Arcane Disciple feat - all the benefits, none of the downsides. Plus the feat gives you a bonus essentia, which is always nice.

For your other feat, I'd actually recommend Bonus Essentia, because you're going to be starved for essentia much of the time (being higher level with less essentia than a straight incarnate).

Also, you get an Advanced Learning spell from beguiler, which has to be a level 1 sorceror/wizard spell of either Illusion or Enchantment. My personal favorite level 1 illusion spell (that Beguilers don't already get) is Instant Diversion from Races of the Dragon - which is a swift action Mirror Image spell that lets you scatter in several directions at once - at least as far as your enemies can tell.

[Person_Man]

At mid levels, a key way to double your power output is to take the Share Soulmelds feat. It allows your Familiar or Animal Companion to share the effects of your Soulmeld. This basically allows you to double the damage of Dissolving Spitle, summon a second Necrocarnum Zombie, take the Improved Familiar feat and use Vitality Belt to get a damage sponge, etc. A nice DM will allow a Soulspark Familiar to benefit from this feat (which is technically not a real Familiar). But even if he doesn't, it's often worth dipping 1 level into Sorcerer or something similar to get access to Share Soulmelds.

[Chilingsworth]

Ok, Person_Man's post isn't showing up for me, maybe my posting will cause it to show up?

EDIT: Yup, it worked.