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Crow
2011-08-24, 10:30 PM
What would be the lowest theoretical level that a character would have to be in order to kill these creatures without resorting to cheese? What methods would be most effective?

Jormungandr, the Midgard Serpent

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Colossal Dragon (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 66d12+1,782 (2,211 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 60 ft (12 squares), swim 60 ft
Armor Class: 90 (-8 size, +75 natural, +13 deflection), touch 15, flat-footed 90
Base Attack/Grapple: +66/+114
Attack: Bite +92 melee (8d6+32/19-20 plus poison) or slam +91 melee (4d8+32)
Full Attack: Bite +92 melee (8d6+32/19-20 plus poison) and slam +86 melee (4d8+16)
Space/Reach: 30 ft/30 ft (60 ft with slam)
Special Attacks: Constrict 4d8+32, death throes, frightful presence, improved grab, poison
Special Qualities: Amphibious, blindsense 60 ft, cataclysmic motion, damage reduction 25/epic, darkvision 120 ft., fast healing 200, immunities, keen senses, regeneration 200, resistance to acid 20, electricity 20, fire 20, and sonic 20, spell resistance 66
Saves: Fort +62, Ref +37, Will +44
Abilities: Str 75, Dex 10, Con 65, Int 27, Wis 29, Cha 36
Skills: Balance +2, Bluff +82, Diplomacy +17, Gather Information +15, Intimidate +84, Knowledge (geography) +77, Knowledge (history) +77, Knowledge (local) +77, Knowledge (nature) +79, Knowledge (religion) +77, Listen +78, Search +77, Sense Motive +78, Spot +78, Survival +78 (+80 following tracks, +80 avoiding hazards, +80 aboveground), Swim +109, Tumble +69
Feats: Ability Focus (poison), Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Feint, Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Snatch, Track, Weapon Focus (bite)
Epic Feats: Epic Prowess, Epic Sunder, Devastating Critical (bite), Legendary Tracker, Overwhelming Critical (bite), Superior Initiative

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Environment: Any land and aquatic
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 45
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: None
Level Adjustment: ---

This serpent is so massively immense that it seems to go on for miles. Its thick body lies in huge coils as it stretches out across the expansive wilderness. Its massive serpentine head is somewhat draconic, though it dwarfs the entire bodies of even the largest of mortal great wyrms.

Jormungandr is the offspring of the mischievous god Loki and the giantess Angurboda, along with its siblings Hel and Fenris. He is also called the Midgard Serpent, or the World Serpent.

When Odin saw the monstrous progeny, he threw the snake into the sea when he was still young to keep him from causing trouble. Unfortunately, Jormungandr’s isolation allowed him to grow unchecked, until he eventually was long enough to circle the entire earth and bite his own tail.

Thor is the mortal enemy of the Midgard Serpent and has tried unsuccessfully to slay him many times. According to a prophecy by the Norns, Thor will not succeed in his task until the time of Ragnarok – although Jormungandr’s poison would slay Thor in the battle as well.

Jormungandr is easily tens of thousands of miles long, and his weight is incalculable to any but a god.

Jormungandr speaks Abyssal, Aquan, Common, Draconic, Giant, Undercommon, and likely a handful of other languages that he has learned over his long life.

COMBAT
Jormungandr prefers to be left alone. He hunts when he is hungry, but ignores most combatants, as most other beings cannot truly harm him. He only defends himself against more powerful opponents like Thor or very persistent foes. By coiling up his mass, Jormungandr can make slam attacks against any creature within 60 feet of his body, at any point, and can grapple more than one target at a time.

Jormungandr rarely moves his entire body, but when he feels the need to his movements cause destruction on a grand scale. Jormungandr’s impossible length allows his to lift his head to any height, and thus never needs to make a Climb or Jump check to reach higher or lower altitudes. He can move over hills, crevasses, ravines, and other natural features in a similar manner, and since it is impossible for him to fall, he never suffers falling damage.

Jormungandr’s natural weapons are treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

An opponent can attack Jormungandr’s head with a sunder attempt as if it was a weapon. Jormungandr’s head has 400 hit points. If Jormungandr’s head is dealt enough lethal damage to destroy it in a single attack, he dies.

Constrict (Ex): Jormungandr deals automatic slam damage with a successful grapple check.

Death Throes (Ex): If Jormungandr dies from having his head sundered, his venom will seep out from his rapidly from his body, filling a 50-foot radius area around his head that remains for 1d4 days. All creatures in this area are subject to Jormungandr’s poison.

Frightful Presence (Ex): Jormungandr can unsettle foes with his mere presence. This ability takes effect automatically whenever Jormungandr attacks. Creatures within 360 feet of Jormungandr are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than him.

A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a DC 56 Will save remains immune to Jormungandr’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures become shaken for 4d6 rounds.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, Jormungandr must hit with his slam attack. He can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If he wins the grapple check, he establishes a hold and can constrict.

Poison (Ex): Contact or injury, Fortitude DC 72, initial and secondary damage 3d6 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Jormungandr’s poison is so deadly that all living creatures, even deities and creatures with an immunity to poison, must succeed on the saving throw or take the listed damage. Magical immunities against poison of non-epic status are also ineffective against Jormungandr’s poison, although any bonuses to saving throws against poison still applies.

Amphibious (Ex): Although Jormungandr is aquatic, he can survive indefinitely on land.

Blindsense (Ex): Jormungandr can pinpoint creatures within a distance of 60 feet from his body. Opponents he can’t actually see still have total concealment against Jormungandr.

Cataclysmic Motion (Ex): Jormungandr can move from one place on surface of the planet to any other as a full-round action. To accomplish this, he steers his head in the proper direction, and simply plows through or over anything in his path, moving at incredible speed to reposition himself. His head will end in whatever area on the world’s surface he desires. He cannot circle the world more than once this way in a single round.

Due to Jormungandr’s incredible size, this movement leaves natural disasters in his wake, out to a mile away from his body. In cold land environments, his movements cause avalanches (see Mountain Terrain in the DMG). In warm or temperate lands, his movements create an earthquake (as the spell). When moving through aquatic environments, he creates massive waves (treat as the raise water function of the control water spell, with an area using a caster level equal to Jormungandr's Hit Dice). Jormungandr does not take any action to consciously cause these effects, nor can he prevent them from happening.

Immunities (Ex): Jormungandr is immune to ability damage, ability drain, cold, death effects, disease, disintegration, energy drain, imprisonment, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, polymorph, and sleep effects.

Keen Senses (Ex): Jormungandr sees four times as well as a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. He also has darkvision out to 120 feet.

Regeneration (Ex): Good bludgeoning weapons deal normal damage to Jormungandr.
If any part of Jormungandr is severed from the rest of his body, it reattaches instantly if not completely separated from the body.

Skills: Jormungandr has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. He can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. He can use the run action while swimming, provided he swims in a straight line.

1980 Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Originally found in the first edition Deities and Demigods (1980, James M. Ward and Robert J. Kuntz).

Fenris Wolf

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Colossal Magical Beast (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 88d10+2,112 (2,596 hp)
Initiative: +21
Speed: 100 ft. (20 squares)
Armor Class: 65 (-8 size, +13 Dex, +50 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 52
Base Attack/Grapple: +88/+126
Attack: Bite +103 melee (12d6+22/15-20/x3 plus 2d6 on a crit)
Full Attack: Bite +103 melee (12d6+22/15-20/x3 plus 2d6 on a crit) and 2 claws +101 melee (10d6+11/19-20)
Space/Reach: 50 ft./40 ft.
Special Attacks: Augmented critical, battle frenzy, frightful howl, improved grab, savage 60d6+110, shockwave, swallow whole, trip
Special Qualities: Blindsight 240 ft., damage reduction 20/epic, darkvision 240 ft., fast healing 20, low-light vision, resistance to acid 30, cold 30, electricity 30, fire 30, and sonic 30, scent, unfetterable
Saves: Fort +76, Ref +59, Will +46
Abilities: Str 54, Dex 36, Con 59, Int 18, Wis 32, Cha 19
Skills: Hide +98, Jump +141, Listen +114, Move Silently +114, Spot +114, Survival +102*
Feats: Alertness, Awesome Blow, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Devastating Critical (bite, DC 76), Dire Charge, Epic Fortitude, Epic Will, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Critical (claw), Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Iron Will, Legendary Leaper, Multiattack, Power Attack, Overwhelming Critical (bite), Superior Initiative, Track (B), Weapon Focus (bite), Weapon Focus (claw)

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Environment: Asgard
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 40
Treasure: None
Alignment: Chaotic evil
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: -

A massive timber wolf, several stories tall, stands before you.

Fenrir, the Fenris wolf, is the son of the Norse deity Loki and a giantess. He bit a hand off Tyr, and it is prophesized that he will swallow Odin at Ragnarok.

The Fenris wolf was allowed to remain in Asgard due to a technicality involving the children of deities. Numerous attempts to bind the Fenris wolf failed, until Odin commissioned the dwarves to create a magical chain called Gleipner, which appears as nothing more than silken ribbon. To date, this is the only binding capable of holding the Fenris wolf, and it is believed that in the time of Ragnarok, it too shall fail.

Fenrir sired two sons, Hati and Skoll, and is believed to be related to the legendary brachyuruses.

The Fenris wolf stands 50 feet tall at the shoulder and weighs 100 tons.

The Fenris wolf can speak Common and can communicate with all wolves

COMBAT

The Fenris wolf is a fierce combatant, and is far smarter than a typical wolf. While it prefers to simply grab and swallow anything it encounters, it sometimes likes to toy with its prey, tripping and eventually tearing the victim to shreds.

Augmented Critical (Ex): The Fenris wolf's bite threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18–20, dealing triple damage on a successful critical hit. Additionally, the victim must succeed on a DC 76 Fortitude save or lose a hand or foot (Fenris wolf's choice) A victim who loses a foot falls prone and has its land speed reduced to 5 feet. A severed hand make it impossible for the subject to use objects or cast spells with somatic components. The save DC is Strength-based.

Battle Frenzy (Ex): When the Fenris wolf is reduced to 25% of its total hit points, it gains a +4 inherent bonus to Strength and can make an additional melee attack with its bite each round at a –5 penalty. These benefits cease when the Fenris wolf is healed above 25% of it hit points or reaches zero hit points.

Frightful Howl (Su): As a standard action, the Fenris wolf can emit a howl in a 1-mile-radius spread that affects opponents with fewer Hit Dice or levels than it has. The affected creature must make a successful DC 58 Will save or become shaken. Success indicates that the target is immune to the Fenris wolf's frightful howl for one day. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the Fenris wolf must hit a Huge or smaller opponent with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round.

Savage (Ex): If the Fenris wolf successfully trips an opponent, it latches onto the opponent's body and tears the flesh. This automatically deals an additional 60d6+110 points of damage. If an opponent goes prone for any reason in an area the Fenris wolf threatens, the Fenris wolf can also savage the victim as a free action (treat as the Fenris wolf's attack of opportunity for the round), even though it had nothing to do with tripping the foe.

Shockwave (Ex): The Fenris wolf can hurl itself to the ground as a standard action to create a localized earthquake. All creatures within 100 feet of the Fenris wolf must make DC 76 Reflex saves or fall prone. Structures in the radius take 4d6 points of damage instead. The save DC is Strength-based.

Swallow Whole (Ex): The Fenris wolf can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of Huge or smaller size by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 24d6+22 points of crushing damage plus 12d6+26 points of acid damage per round from the Fenris wolf’s digestive juices. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by dealing 200 points of damage to the Fenris wolf's digestive tract (AC 35). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. The Fenris wolf's gullet can hold 2 Huge, 4 Large, 8 Medium, 32 Small, 128 Tiny, or 512 Diminutive or smaller creatures.

Trip (Ex): If the Fenris wolf hits with a bite attack it can attempt to trip its opponent (+38 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the Fenris wolf.

Unfetterable (Su): The Fenris wolf is under a continuous freedom of movement effect that cannot be dispelled or suppressed by any means. Only epic-level magic can bind the Fenris Wolf, although a specific item or spell would have to be designed for this purpose (such as magical chain called Gleipner).

Skills: The Fenris wolf has a +10 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot checks. *It also has a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.

1980 Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Originally found in Deities & Demigods

Flickerdart
2011-08-24, 10:34 PM
Define cheese. Is Mailman cheese? Is gate cheese? Are simulacra cheese?

Crow
2011-08-24, 10:36 PM
"Cheese" as in "experienced GitPers would know it when they see it."

SowZ
2011-08-24, 10:37 PM
Well, cutting out cheese, (infinite or near infinite combos,) not until casters get access to powerful spells. And even then, the saves are so high, they would need to be very creative. Or cheesed out.

DragonOfUndeath
2011-08-24, 10:39 PM
"Cheese" as in "experienced GitPers would know it when they see it."

Cheese is a comparison term.
You have to set a baseline for what is barely cheese (or barely not cheese) based on the PL of the campaign.
I've seen campaigns where Infinite Wish Demiplanes where commonplace and others where a Fighter/Wizard Gish is OP

Knaight
2011-08-24, 10:41 PM
Midgard Serpent: It has a lousy touch AC, Dex 10, and no immunity to ability damage. That SR 66 is the only sticking point, and punching through or getting around that shouldn't be particularly difficult.

Fenris: It has lousy touch AC, Int 18, and no immunity to ability damage. That SR 66 is the only sticking point, and punching through or getting around that shouldn't be particularly difficult.

Flickerdart
2011-08-24, 10:46 PM
Jormungandr dies from 400 HP of damage to his head. That's pretty trivial to do.

Tebryn
2011-08-24, 10:47 PM
Midgard Serpent: It has a lousy touch AC, Dex 10, and no immunity to ability damage. That SR 66 is the only sticking point, and punching through or getting around that shouldn't be particularly difficult.

It is actually, it's listed in it's Immunities bar. Honestly any spell that can destroy items aimed at the head would take it down. Getting rid of the poison wouldn't be far to difficult either.

Sactheminions
2011-08-24, 10:48 PM
Ability damage is almost always the answer. Ability damage is more broken than Time Stop, Celerity, and Shock Trooper put together. Anyway, do ability damage. The answer is to get about a dozen casters of ~20th level together with that spell from Frostburn and Quickened Assay Spell Resistance.

The answer is always to get about a dozen casters together with that spell from Frostburn and Assay Spell Resistance. Anytime you have a massive physically imposing something, that's the answer.

Neat creatures and backstory (I take it you're doing the Norse Gods game. Very 1980s! I approve).

Gavinfoxx
2011-08-24, 10:49 PM
Ah! I think I see a weakness.

Low touch AC and not immune to LEVEL Drain. So you would need a few level 1 characters which can do fell drain sonic snap's. Either of them can only kill, what, two a round? So get a Century of them for good measure and go to town.

Flickerdart
2011-08-24, 10:53 PM
It is actually, it's listed in it's Immunities bar. Honestly any spell that can destroy items aimed at the head would take it down. Getting rid of the poison wouldn't be far to difficult either.
Who isn't immune to poison by, like, level 10?

RaggedAngel
2011-08-24, 10:58 PM
Who isn't immune to poison by, like, level 10?

The poison specifically works on things that are immune to poison, including dieties. You don't want this thing to get a chance to touch you.

Knaight
2011-08-24, 11:06 PM
The poison specifically works on things that are immune to poison, including dieties. You don't want this thing to get a chance to touch you.
It is slow and limited though, so staying out of range is easy.

Ah! I think I see a weakness.

Low touch AC and not immune to LEVEL Drain. So you would need a few level 1 characters which can do fell drain sonic snap's. Either of them can only kill, what, two a round? So get a Century of them for good measure and go to town.
Nah, we need one higher level character who can stay out of range, and just spam level draining stuff. So, warlock it is. Fell flight, eldritch spear, necrotic blast, and you are basically done. That can easily be done by level 16.

Crow
2011-08-24, 11:20 PM
Immune to energy drain. There isn't actually a "level drained" condition, it is referred to as "energy drained" in the SRD.

Grendus
2011-08-24, 11:24 PM
Jormungandr has Tarrasque syndrome. No flight or ranged weapons. Now granted, his ability to move across the world at a whim would make him unkillable by level 5 wizards, but still, any opponent flying 70 feat in the air could basically ignore him.

Best bet would be to go with an ubercharger. Grab an adamantine lance and aim for the head. Wraithstrike, a second level spell, would let you attack it's pitiful 15 touch AC. I'm not sure what level it would take to deal 400 damage with an ubercharger, but all you have to do is catch it off guard. It's a bruiser in a high magic world, it's toast.


Fenris Wolf is laughable. Go with a sorcerer, pump your caster level and Arcane Fusion an Assay Spell Resistance and Shivering Touch (preferably from a distance). A well prepared spellcaster could kill it as a standard action, the only thing it has to guard against magic is SR 66 which, while good, isn't nearly as impenetrable as you would think.

Saintheart
2011-08-24, 11:31 PM
Speaking only for Jormundgar, it is immune to ability damage, so no Shivering Touch shenanigans.

But it isn't immune to negative energy damage. And it doesn't have a mode of flight.

Cast Assay Spell Resistance. Give a minimum 12th level divine caster with DMM: Reach Spell a greater Metamagic Rod of Quicken and Winged Boots and he can hit it with 240 points of HP damage in one round via Harm castings - it only gets to regenerate once per round. Then conk it on the head with an Inflict Moderate Wounds spell, since it dies at -10 and Harm can only get you down as far as 1 hp.

Gets even faster if you have another flying cleric with DMM: Reach Spell and Inflict Serious Wounds along for the ride.

Delcor
2011-08-24, 11:42 PM
tl;dr so I apologize if these have already been clarified, but...

Jormungandr dies from 400 HP of damage to his head. That's pretty trivial to do.
Where the heck does it say this^

It is actually, it's listed in it's Immunities bar. Honestly any spell that can destroy items aimed at the head would take it down. Getting rid of the poison wouldn't be far to difficult either.
Explain how item destruction would kill it, and how you can shrug off poison that can poison gods

It is slow and limited though, so staying out of range is easy.

Nah, we need one higher level character who can stay out of range, and just spam level draining stuff. So, warlock it is. Fell flight, eldritch spear, necrotic blast, and you are basically done. That can easily be done by level 16.
How would these low level warlocks get through the massive saves/SR? And breath underwater? And what is stopping the Big bad snake from one rounding the level 16?

Crow
2011-08-24, 11:47 PM
Well it says you can sunder it's head. You can't just direct regular attacks at it's head (you get to chew through the 2000 hit points, doable I guess).

What we need is a ranged sunder, or a spell that allows you to sunder with it, which can be pumped to 400 damage in one hit (specifies single attack). Or get your ubercharger in there without getting squashed first/failing the will save and go for the sunder that way.

DeAnno
2011-08-24, 11:48 PM
The serpent could theoretically get you in the air just by treating "vertical movement" as walking, so the easiest way to Kite safely is probably the Mobile Spellcasting Feat, a good Tumble check, and Fly 90 (Fly + Haste) for 180 feet of movement per round. If you're more than 180 feet away from it, it can't charge you, and it can't move more than 120 feet in a round without spending a Full-Round Action. If it does spend a FRA to get right up adjacent to you, Tumble away from it for 90 feet, then Mobile spellcast the next 90 feet, leaving you 185 feet away from it with a Force Orb smacking into its nose. The only real concern is being high enough level that you can overwhelm its regeneration with damage output and have enough spell slots to get it below zero.

Hit it a few more times to get it low enough that it won't get up right away, then Teleport out and bring back someone who hopefully isn't a mook with a Epic, Bludgeoning, Good weapon to go through Regeneration and beat it to death while its unconscious. (Disintegrate cracks Regeneration, but also requires beating SR).

That's the simplest way I can think of dealing with it if you can't crack its SR, and despite people's claims it isn't as easy as you would think. CL 20 + 10 for True Casting + 10 for Assay SR + 10 or so for a Marshal Aura is still only +50, and requires that you either have a Marshal dip and a bunch of Cha yourself or a friend.

The Wolf is much less problematic as it can't get people high in the air and also doesn't have Regeneration, apply similar tactics and you'll have an easy time.

Tvtyrant
2011-08-24, 11:49 PM
An incantrix/dweomerkeeper type with the orb chain of spells could drop one of those in about a minute. Just keep firing off heavily metamagicked orbs. 2,200 HP suggests at least level 17, and just keep chugging away. 270 damage for the 9th level slots, 180 for the 8ths, etc. Just fill up with orbs, greater invisibilityand flight and shoot till they go down.

Knaight
2011-08-25, 12:44 AM
How would these low level warlocks get through the massive saves/SR? And breath underwater? And what is stopping the Big bad snake from one rounding the level 16?

The snake has only melee attacks and is slow, so staying out of range is trivial. As for saves, if you have infinite time, those 1's add up. It turns out it doesn't work though, due to an energy drain immunity I didn't catch.

Dimers
2011-08-25, 02:31 AM
Seems like a cheese-free Hulking Hurler could manage it pretty well. Given what other respondents have said, make it a flying Hulking Hurler.

2xMachina
2011-08-25, 03:38 AM
Factotum 12, Cunning Breach: SR? Not against me.

Knaight
2011-08-25, 03:43 AM
Factotum 12, Cunning Breach: SR? Not against me.

That and a little Wizard should be able to take Fenris right down. 18 points of int aren't that hard to wipe out. Though Psion might be easier to do this with, as that 19 Cha is just asking for an Ego Whip or three.

DeAnno
2011-08-25, 04:19 AM
Well Cunning Breech definitely makes that pathetic Wolf even easier, but the Snake is actually still pretty dangerous. It's immune to Ability Damage and Disintegration along with most of the other game enders, so it looks like the only way to take it down easily is really to knock it unconscious by kiting and then beat it to death.

This is heavily complicated, because in looking at its stat block it has BOTH Fast Healing 200 and Regeneration 200, which means the nonlethal damage from Force Orbs will be worn away at a rate of 400 healing/turn, which is enough that most non-epic Mailman builds are going to struggle a bit to dig through its 2k hp and keep it down long enough to be killed.

Also, if it's played intelligently (with Int 27 it SHOULD be), it will retreat to the other side of the World if it gets beaten into the danger zone and just wait a couple rounds to come back once it's full up on health. It can even spend its full round action each turn going to random places, and unless you can track it AND reach it AND hurt it all within one round somehow it's pretty much safe and happy until it wants to fight again.

As we can see, defensively it's actually extremely intimidating.

On the offensive side, be very cautious about flaunting your Greater Invis at it, because it has a giant Spot check and I'm pretty sure there are rules for spotting through Invis (is it something like a -40 penalty?). Also the geometries of kiting with only Fly 90 are exploitable by it if it crowds you correctly, so you may want to become faster somehow if that's an important part of your plan.

At the end of the day you might want to just try to Sunder the Head, but I'm not sure about the practicalities of dealing 400 with a single Sunder attack at various levels. The fact that it needs to be a Sunder means you can't power attack without special support, and since that's an opposed attack roll Wraithstrike won't help you either against it's giant stack of Hit Dice. I don't know of any even vaguely non-cheesy pre Epic builds that could beat an opposed attack roll of +103 that it'll be making, so Sundering may be a very difficult option after all.

I'm not sure if Jormungandr is worth its whole 45 CR, but I'm reasonably confident it's at least much stronger than anything in a basic Monster Manual. Without massive cheese I think the best a 4 man party could do to it at level 20 is make it run away, and I don't know enough about the clusterbomb that is Epic Spellcasting to predict anything past that.

EDIT: Perhaps I exaggerate, as if a 4 man party Nova-ed on it at 20 they could probably get it unconscious, but still, it isn't a one man job at least.

LordBlades
2011-08-25, 07:05 AM
The wolf is trivial as others have said due to it's complete lack of immunity to either ability damage or drain.

The snake on the other hand is significantly more troublesome. an ubercharger is probably your best bet to one shot him. Probably something like a StP erudite gish to get both Evade Attack and Wraithstrike.

2xMachina
2011-08-25, 08:41 AM
Hmm, got an idea.

Planeshift it to Positive energy plane (a 1 eventually). Then it'll get a 1 eventually on the "boom!" save.