Sword and board? How about board and board!

[Slii Arhem]

Well, not really. One of my pet projects as an amature char. op. fanatic is to design a melee character that can reliably hit with the largest weapon possible. Recently I turned to the ever reliable heavy shield as a stand in for a great sword and have gotten staggering awesome results based on all the hidden feats sprinkled about for us shield loving folk.

However, being decidedly novice, I have some questions about how a few abilities would mesh, and I figured that those rules lawyers lurking here might be able to do me some pro bono work.

So without further ado, I give you the unholy amalgamation of feats and foly that is the board/- fighter

I built him off the half giant race in expanded psionics on the assumption I could La buyoff at Cl3 (mostly because I don't have access to the Goliath statblock) for the all important powerful build racial quality.

All of his levels are standard fighter for as long as it takes to get this setup. An inferior version of it can be done with flaws by level 3 (only does 8d6 damage on a charge, pfft) but it scales to roughly any level.

For feats I chose the following:
Combat expertise (phb)
Improved trip (phb)
Shield charge (complete warrior)
Improved Shield Bash
Powerful Charge (Eberron campaign setting)
Greater Powerful Charge (ditto)
Monkey Grip (C.Warr)

The only equipment he needs is his +1 Huge heavy deep crystal spiked shield of bashing.

With the size increase bonuses on his shield bash damage, He swings for a massive 4d6+1+str bonus, but that's not the best part. As far as I can see according to RAW, since shield charge gives you a free trip attack on any charge wherein you hit something with your shield, and improved trip gives you a free attack on a trip, then at the cost of making three easy sequential attack rolls you get the benefit of two attacks and a trip on a charge. With greater powerful charge you get an extra 3d6 (since you count as a huge creature for the purposes of the feat) and if you charge your weapon with your latent psionics it ends up being 4d6+3d6+2d6+trip+4d6 for a total of 13d6+2+twice your str bonus.

As you can see, this build devolved rather quickly to being just another uber-charger, but I still enjoyed the process and genuinely like the way he turned out. However I still have some major concerns.

For those that didn't read all that (most of you) I'll give you the skinny.

1. I need to know if the shield charge and improved trip feats stack with one another when it comes to adding attacks to a queue. (shield charge grants a trip, imp. trip grants an attack)

2. I'd like to know if you can wield an oversized shield two-handed, as this would free up a feat and allow me to exchange monkey grip for power attack. Alternately, if I was out of my mind, I could keep monkey grip and two-hand wield a gargantuan shield at a -4 attack penalty. (Answered Thoroughly)

2A. Can I wield a shield, normal for my size (in this case large due to powerful build) in two hands for the bonus to power attack? I've never seen this come up since shields aren't "technically" weapons.

3. And I guess I'd like some criticism. I have access to very few splatbooks and peripheral content, so I've had to pick and choose where possible. Are there better shield feats I'm missing? How does it stack up against other uber-chargers you seen/built? Does this build even deserve a tier? Have I gone off the deep end? Let me know.

[Edit]: I'd like to thank everyone for the wonderful response, I've spent quite awhile relooking at my feat choices and you've been a great help. Also, for everyone that keeps recommending improved shield bash, it is on my feat list already, and definitely a must have considering it's also a prereq for shield charge Iirc.

[Greenish]

Monkey grip doesn't stack with powerful build.

[Edit]: Greater Powerful Charge is 2d6, Powerful Build doesn't count for it.

[Kantolin]

May I suggest you look at the Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm) instead? It's both on the official SRD (which I've linked to), and in your expanded psionics handbook.

Partially as it's fun, but also partially because expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm)is an exceptionally useful method of doing this - it allows you to increase your actual size, which is very helpful when tripping or the like.

Plus, isn't that the half-giant's favored class?

[Kavurcen]

Monkey grip doesn't stack with powerful build.
Just wondering, is there any RAW that makes this clear, or is it just generally accepted? From half giant, "The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds kosher. I'm just interested since I've played a character with powerful build and monkey grip and I would feel dumb :/

[NNescio]

Just wondering, is there any RAW that makes this clear, or is it just generally accepted? From half giant, "The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds kosher. I'm just interested since I've played a character with powerful build and monkey grip and I would feel dumb :/

Neither the feat nor the trait change your actual size, and hence they cannot 'stack'.


...A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty.
What is your size? Medium. What size weapons can you use without penalties? Up to Large.


...You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll.

What is your size? Still medium. What size weapons can you use with a -2 penalty? Up to Large.

In any case, Monkey Grip is an absolutely horrendous feat, since you basically get an average of +3.5 damage in return for a -2 penalty to attack. You can get better mileage by simply using Power Attack (assuming you are two-handing), which is far more flexible to boot. As a further insult to injury, Monkey Grip can also be effectively 'bought' with 6000 GP, through Strongarm Bracers.

[Slii Arhem]

May I suggest you look at the Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm) instead?

I considered psychic warrior originally before I realised all the feats I would need just to pull this off.

[Slii Arhem]

Monkey grip doesn't stack with powerful build.

[Edit]: Greater Powerful Charge is 2d6, Powerful Build doesn't count for it.

Great, thanks for the heads up on both those counts, now do you know if I can wield a huge shield in two hands, rather than with monkey grip, at the same penalty? If not, could you point me to where it says so for reference sake?

[Edit]: Nevermind, I found it in the Monkey Grip entry, and it looks like even if I went two handed I'm still treated as a medium creature for scaling purposes. On the upside, my formula goes from 13d6 to 11d6 by losing the huge shield and the extra powerful charge die, so think of all the rolling I wont have to do!

[herrhauptmann]

I'd suggest updating your opening post, otherwise you'll end up with people not paying attention and pointing out the same mistakes over and over.

Have you looked at the half-minotaur template? Dragon Mag 313.


Usually has a Chaotic alignment. Gain Feat: Track. Natural Armor +2 Str +4 Con +2 Int –2 Wis +2 Lvl +1 if size increases, CR +1.
If the Base Creature was of Small or Medium size, its size is increased by one category, with all the appropriate changes to its ability scores, etc., plus a +10’ improvement to base movement. These changes are in addition to the bonuses and penalties listed. Darkvision 60’. Gain the Scent ability. +2 Racial bonus on Search, Spot, & Listen checks. Gain a 1d6 Gore attack (if Medium). +4 bonus on checks to escape a Maze spell & always know which
direction is North.

The bolded line is the most important one in the entry. Because when you increase a creature from medium to large, you change his stats again, Str and Con boost, drop in Dex.
Off the top of my head, final shift is a +12 strength, +4 con, -2 dex, -2 int, +2 wis. And a LA +2.
I think barbarian might be your favored class, but who cares? You've got a huge strength score.

I don't know if powerful build still has an effect now that you've made your half-giant into a Large sized half-giant/halfminotaur. But even if doesn't, you're now size large, so the terri-bad monkey grip will stack.
Or, you can save a feat and buy strongarm bracers from the MiC.

If you try and use the powerful charge feats and the DM nixes them on account of them being "From ebberron," don't sweat it, those are also in the monster manuals.

PsyWar is still a good idea for the build, because 8 levels in PsyWar, lets you overchannel your Expansion power. Giving you a boost of 2 size categories, instead of 1. So your medium sized half giant with a large weapon, is now Huge sized with a Gargantuan weapon. :D

And in the interest of your CharOp,
1)I'd suggest trying to find a copy of the crystal keep indexes. They've removed the offending pdf's (at request of WOTC), which list almost all the feats/spells/templates/races you'd want. As well as where to find them.
2)Person man has a list (he has many) which details ways to get your character to a larger size and/or carry a really big weapon.

Looks like a good start though. Eager to see how this continues.

[herrhauptmann]

2A. Can I wield a shield, normal for my size (in this case large due to powerful build) in two hands for the bonus to power attack? I've never seen this come up since shields aren't "technically" weapons.

3. And I guess I'd like some criticism. I have access to very few splatbooks and peripheral content, so I've had to pick and choose where possible. Are there better shield feats I'm missing? How does it stack up against other uber-chargers you seen/built? Does this build even deserve a tier? Have I gone off the deep end? Let me know.

[Edit]: I'd like to thank everyone for the wonderful response, I've spent quite awhile relooking at my feat choices and you've been a great help.

2)I've never heard anyone ask this, but I don't see a reason why it wouldn't.
If the DM doesn't like it, or you find yourself sometimes fighting and actually using your shield for defense, I'd suggest Knockdown (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown). 10 points of damage, free trip attempt. You decide if that successful trip means a free attack on a prone enemy. (I say it shouldn't, but it gets debated every 6 months or so.)
3)Well the ubercharger, that's a mounted character that runs 100ft through combat, hitting every enemy for 3d6+500 with his dual lances as a halfling riding on a dog. :D Ok, I exaggerate...
But an ubercharger uses the mounted combat tree, as well as leap attack, shocktrooper, and maybe combat brute to deal ridiculous amounts of damage with Power Attack. I always suggest a tauric shaped creature to ensure you can use leap attack and your mounted charge at the same time.
So your idea isn't really overpowered, I wouldn't say it's a higher or lower tier than the regular fighter/psywar you use as a base.

Have you looked at the dungeoncrasher fighter? I think in PHB2.

[Slii Arhem]

3)Well the ubercharger, that's a mounted character that runs 100ft through combat, hitting every enemy for 3d6+500 with his dual lances as a halfling riding on a dog. :D Ok, I exaggerate...
But an ubercharger uses the mounted combat tree, as well as leap attack, shocktrooper, and maybe combat brute to deal ridiculous amounts of damage with Power Attack. I always suggest a tauric shaped creature to ensure you can use leap attack and your mounted charge at the same time.
So your idea isn't really overpowered, I wouldn't say it's a higher or lower tier than the regular fighter/psywar you use as a base.

Have you looked at the dungeoncrasher fighter? I think in PHB2.

Huh, I never really knew what qualified as an ubercharger until you directed me to shock trooper just now. Don't know how I missed that...

Anyway, As I May Have Mentioned, I don't really have access to many of the basic essentials beyond the core books and a smatter of the complete series, as well as BoVD and BoED for some reason. So mostly I troll around looking for free content, which your crystal keep enchancements have helped with greatly.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Huh, I never really knew what qualified as an ubercharger until you directed me to shock trooper just now. Don't know how I missed that...

That's not ubercharger. The ubercharger is a specific build.

Also, Captain America!

[MeeposFire]

A spiked heavy shield is a one handed weapon on the martial weapon chart and can therefor be wielded in two hands such as for better power attack returns. You will need imp shield bash if it is your only shield if you want to keep your shield bonus to AC.

[SowZ]

I came here fully expecting to say something about how like bonuses don't stack, or read that someone else had already said it more than likely, to another person who thinks dual wielding shields would be a great idea. But this is not the case. It is a bit more interesting than that. Hrm...

[Gavinfoxx]

You want to two hand shields. You know

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/SoloT/0023.jpg

[Slii Arhem]

You want to two hand shields. You know

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/SoloT/0023.jpg

You, my good sir, win forever. Thank you

[Gavinfoxx]

FYI, those were specifically in judicial duels... so it wasn't really battlefield stuff...

[Seerow]

FYI, those were specifically in judicial duels... so it wasn't really battlefield stuff...

Do you really want to complain about what was really used in battlefields in D&D? Cause I want to see some historical documentation on spiked chains being used on the battlefield.

[Gavinfoxx]

Do you really want to complain about what was really used in battlefields in D&D? Cause I want to see some historical documentation on spiked chains being used on the battlefield.

Yea, true, true. Kusari-Gama and other weapons on a chain a isn't really a battlefield weapon too, heh... but I thought that shield thing was too much of an interesting tidbit NOT to share!

[herrhauptmann]

You want to two hand shields. You know

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/SoloT/0023.jpg

What book is that in? I've been looking for it for almost a year.

[Gavinfoxx]

What book is that in? I've been looking for it for almost a year.

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Solothurner.htm

I just googled something like 'two handed shield fighting' and found that...

[Yuki Akuma]

Yea, true, true. Kusari-Gama and other weapons on a chain a isn't really a battlefield weapon too, heh... but I thought that shield thing was too much of an interesting tidbit NOT to share!

D&D characters generally don't fight on battlefields. Combat in D&D is small-scale skirmishing, at the most.

What works in a fight against an army and what works in a fight against a few guys are generally different.

[Gavinfoxx]

It's more a matter of...

"What works in self defense and assaulting creatures and other varied scenarios"
vs.
"What works in a judicial duel where you are given matched weapons"

[Yuki Akuma]

Smacking someone with a giant slab of metal works in any one-on-one combat situation.

[Gavinfoxx]

Smacking someone with a giant slab of metal works in any one-on-one combat situation.

Wait are we talking D&D mechanics or real life here?

[Slii Arhem]

Can't it be both?

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, okay. Both.

D&D: D&D doesn't really model melee that well. As long as 1.) you have strength, 2.) you can two hand the item and gain benefit from doing so, 3.) You can Power Attack, and 4.) You don't take penalties for wielding it as a weapon, than it doesn't really matter if you are using a wooden club, a metal club, a heavy mace, a quarterstaff, what D&D calls a longsword (I'd call it an arming sword), a heavy shield (spiked or unspiked), a greataxe or a greatsword. None of them contribute THAT MUCH to more inherent lethality, with possible exceptions of greatsword. Sure, reach matters... but as far as inherent lethality? Nooo not reaalllyyy... so I would say that in D&D, the fact that to hit (which includes capability of overcoming armor) and damage is based on things that are by FAR more important than what weapon someone is wielding, that the real details of differences between weapons are really overshadowed.

Real Life: Wheewww... Yes. Weapons matter a GREAT GREAT deal. There are some weapons that just, by the way they are used, are actually not effective against certain things. I will assume that we are limiting it to 'slabs of metal' (IE, swords). There was soooo much variation in swords and how they worked and how they are used BECAUSE armor was evolving, and some swords are meant to work under certain conditions fighting people with certain amounts or types of armor. You do NOT take a rapier *anywhere near where anyone is wearing armor* because it just won't work, it isn't stiff enough to pierce armor. That is WHY it is a civilian self defense weapon and not a battlefield weapon.

[Slii Arhem]

Well, okay. Both.

D&D: D&D doesn't really model melee that well. As long as 1.) you have strength, 2.) you can two hand the item and gain benefit from doing so, 3.) You can Power Attack, and 4.) You don't take penalties for wielding it as a weapon, than it doesn't really matter if you are using a wooden club, a metal club, a heavy mace, a quarterstaff, what D&D calls a longsword (I'd call it an arming sword), a heavy shield (spiked or unspiked), a greataxe or a greatsword. None of them contribute THAT MUCH to more inherent lethality, with possible exceptions of greatsword. Sure, reach matters... but as far as inherent lethality? Nooo not reaalllyyy... so I would say that in D&D, the fact that to hit (which includes capability of overcoming armor) and damage is based on things that are by FAR more important than what weapon someone is wielding, that the real details of differences between weapons are really overshadowed.

Real Life: Wheewww... Yes. Weapons matter a GREAT GREAT deal. There are some weapons that just, by the way they are used, are actually not effective against certain things. I will assume that we are limiting it to 'slabs of metal' (IE, swords). There was soooo much variation in swords and how they worked and how they are used BECAUSE armor was evolving, and some swords are meant to work under certain conditions fighting people with certain amounts or types of armor. You do NOT take a rapier *anywhere near where anyone is wearing armor* because it just won't work, it isn't stiff enough to pierce armor. That is WHY it is a civilian self defense weapon and not a battlefield weapon.

I will say one thing because this argument is too tasty to not get drawn into for a weapons nut such as myself, the huge slabs of metal referred to were shields, which have been by far the most consistent and worthwhile weapon in the history of war. A man in heavy armor can be knocked arse over teakettle with a good weighted swing, and having a decent tarje spike on your buckler provides nearly the same penetration as the back-end spike of a heavy warhammer, which was specifically designed to chew through armor. Add that to the sheer variety of make, materiel, design, weight and rigidity and you have yourself the most overlooked advance in historical combat since the brass cannon.

However, now that this thread has gotten a bit off topic, I think it'd be best to take such arguments elsewhere, and get back to the task at hand. :smallsmile:

OT: I just want to thank you guys once again, been great getting the time of day from people who know their stuff.

[Gavinfoxx]

Huge slabs of METAL? I thought shields were generally, uh, huge slabs of WOOD with BITS of metal? Or small slabs of metal?

On topic:

Yes, two handing a heavy steel shield with spikes is very worthwhile; you can get several feats to work quite well with it, and the spikes being enchanted is awful nice.

[Seerow]

Huge slabs of METAL? I thought shields were generally, uh, huge slabs of WOOD with BITS of metal? Or small slabs of metal?

On topic:

Yes, two handing a heavy steel shield with spikes is very worthwhile; you can get several feats to work quite well with it, and the spikes being enchanted is awful nice.

Not to mention bashing enchantment. +2 size categories to your shield damage, bringing you up to a solid d10. Not too shabby.

[Slii Arhem]

Not to mention bashing enchantment. +2 size categories to your shield damage, bringing you up to a solid d10. Not too shabby.

Actually with spikes and bashing, a medium shield works out to 2d6, and a large, which I use, is 3d6. It scales too, which is why I aspire to use a huge, and thus 4d6, shield.

[Seerow]

Actually with spikes and bashing, a medium shield works out to 2d6, and a large, which I use, is 3d6. It scales too, which is why I aspire to use a huge, and thus 4d6, shield.

Huh? A medium heavy shield with a spike is 1d6 and a bashing enchantment increases 2 size categories. *checks table* okay, apparently the table for some reason skips over 1d10 straight to 2d6. I'd ask why, but I think we all know the answer.

[Slii Arhem]

Huh? A medium heavy shield with a spike is 1d6 and a bashing enchantment increases 2 size categories. *checks table* okay, apparently the table for some reason skips over 1d10 straight to 2d6. I'd ask why, but I think we all know the answer.

Because their making up for deficiences inherent in using your primary mode of defense as your sole means of attack by allowing it to function as a +1 greatsword with a +3 ac bonus for a fraction of the cost that it would take to homebrew a similar enchantment on a normal sword?:smallwink:

[herrhauptmann]

Because their making up for deficiences inherent in using your primary mode of defense as your sole means of attack by allowing it to function as a +1 greatsword with a +3 ac bonus for a fraction of the cost that it would take to homebrew a similar enchantment on a normal sword?:smallwink:

Not sure that's it.
A shortspear (1d6 for medium), increased 2 size categories is a 2d6 weapon. It's only if you try looking at a tiny 1d6 weapon, and increasing its size, that you don't go to 2d6 after 2 jumps