Let's Not Be Hasty (Anthropomorphic Toad)

[flumphy]

Anthropomorphic toads are notable for two things. The first is a +6 bonus to wisdom for +0 LA. The other is their speed of 5 feet. No, that's not a typo. 5. They are small size, and they also get -4 strength, -2 dex.

Now, any sane person wanting to play an anthropomorphic toad would immediately begin rolling up a cleric or druid. Others would play a grippli instead. Let's get it out of the way that I am not a sane person. Once, as a joke for a one-shot, I rolled up an anthropomorphic toad monk. (Surprisingly, it survived the session, although its damage was obviously pitiful.) My DM actually ended up loving the concept and has been bugging me to resurrect it ever since, so I'm trying to think of ways to make the concept workable.

So, my restrictions: no spells or psionics. Doing this mundanely is kind of the point. Pretty much any official 3.5 source is game, and if it fits the concept well enough I may be able to float some 3.0 or Dragon material. Because of the obvious handicaps my character is facing, I anticipate the DM being pretty lenient as to what he allows. Things I don't see him changing are the enforcement of multiclass penalties and non-fractional BAB. Finally, this has to be playable from level 1.

My first instinct was a swordsage focusing in Shadow Hand. There's some nice WIS synergy there, the shadow jaunt line and gloom razor give some much-needed mobility, and the shadow blade feat negates some of that racial strength penalty. The intuitive attack feat from BoED could potentially be better than weapon finesse (one or the other being pretty much necessary.) If I could manage a dip in Shiba Protector from OA, that would be WIS to attack and damage (which should stack with my other bonuses since it's untyped.)

The problems? Well, first of all, a lot of Shadow Hand maneuvers, including the juicy ones that give you concealment and thus fuel gloom razor, require you to move ten feet or more per round. I know there's a trait that increases your speed, but that feels like cheating somehow. Secondly, the concept is really feat intensive. Shadow Hand practically screams for TWF, and the feat tax on Shiba Protector compounds the issue.

Playground, help me out here. How big is the speed issue, really? Would I be okay as a small, warty "ninja" without the extra precision damage from TWF? Should I be looking at other disciplines or classes instead? Assuming I can get my DM to waive the racial requirement on Shiba Protector, is a one-level dip worth it? Any other ideas? Is this too many questions?

[Fouredged Sword]

Really high wis huh? Go setting sun unarmed swordsage. Mix with shadow hand (for teleports) and stone dragon (for damage)

Combat expertise and combat relfexes + high dex for your race are a must.

Dex > wis > con > int > str > cha

Wield a reach weapon and stand between the oponents and your allies. threaten melee with unarmed strikes. Trip, throw, and smash barehanded. Teleport to where you need to be in combat.

At higher levels get a spellcaster to overland flight you every morning.


- alternative - go for a totemist - pegusus boots can get you a fly speed that far outstripes your land speed. Mix with unarmed swordsage in even amounts for wis to AC, teleportation, setting sun, and no multiclass penelties.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

No spells or no psionics really is limiting. Druid is the obvious answer, naturally, and one you are clearly trying to avoid. In that vain, spellless, wildshape ranger does what you want, but is probably too magical for your tastes.

Swordsages go well with the wisdom, a little more than the monk, but still not enough considering how they also love having a big dex score. Shiba Protector does help, but it'd cost either cash (ioun stone for alertness+Otyugh Hole for Iron Will) and/or feats (actually taking all three feats). Expertise goes to Combat Expertise via the 3.0->3.5 conversions. However, Shiba Protector does require membership in the Phoenix Clan,which means it is a Human Only type of deal.

That said, it's a workable idea. If you've got a multiclassing friendly table and the racial tax on the Protector is dropped or waived via questing or some such, your build is probably going to end up looking like Swordsage X/Ferocity (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) (or Whirling Frenzy) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) Barbarian 1 (or 2, if you can swing this variant) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures )/Shiba Proctor 1/Swordsage (or one of the PrCs that focus on either Tiger Claw or Shadow Hand) Y.

Grab the unarmed variant swordsage so that you get free monk unarmed strike progression damage.

Assuming a 28 PB, your stats before adjustments should probably be Str: 10 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 16 Cha: 8. You could take some out of Int and Str to pump your Dex or Con to 16 before racial modifiers, but that leaves you with a tiny weight limit and a massive strength penalty to damage, which neither Shiba Protector nor Shadow Blade removes.

EDIT: Feats are, in order,
1st: SS stuffs, Adapative Style
3rd: Shadow Blade or Combat Expertise (if you can somehow bypass the INT requirement)
6th: See 3rd level
9th: Either TWFing stuffs here on out, things like Superior Unarmed Strike/Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike), or random things like Planar Touchstone.

[Angry Bob]

What fouredged sword said. Use a spiked chain. If you can convince your DM that it is so, if you pick shadow hand focus for your swordsage, you get spike chain proficiency for free(by RAW, it only gives you weapon focus with it, but it would be fairly stupid not to also give you proficiency).

I can't say I recommend trying to TWF unless you can score the feat chain as bonus feats(-2 dex and all). Are you just making the build, or is there a game coming up that you'll be playing it in? It might help to know what the rest of your party is doing.

Ask you DM if you can use a spiked chain in conjunction with setting sun throws so you don't have to get adjacent to use them. Problem is, it starts small, so enlarge whatever won't really help there. I realize you don't want psionics or spells, scoring an item of augmented expansion would go a long way in this case. Basically, jack up your reach as much as anthropomorphic toadily possible.

[flumphy]

Assuming a 28 PB, your stats before adjustments should probably be Str: 10 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 16 Cha: 8. You could take some out of Int and Str to pump your Dex or Con to 16 before racial modifiers, but that leaves you with a tiny weight limit and a massive strength penalty to damage, which neither Shiba Protector nor Shadow Blade removes.


While the text of the Shadow Blade makes no mention of this fact, the table states that Dex is supposed to replace strength. I know, text over table and all, but unless this was errataed then you could make an argument that it was intended to do so. I'd have to stay in a shadow hand stance and use shadow hand weapons, but that's not too terrible.



Are you just making the build, or is there a game coming up that you'll be playing it in? It might help to know what the rest of your party is doing.

Yes, this is for an actual game that will be starting soon, hence why I wanted something playable from level 1. I'm not 100% sure what everyone else is playing yet. One person is probably going wildshape ranger (so that's out.) Another always plays a cloistered cleric or int-based caster, so I anticipate that's what he'll be doing. The third player...I have no idea.

[Fouredged Sword]

-2 isn't a kiss of death to a dex build if you really want it. Shadow blade will grant dex to damage, negateing the need for strength at all. Start with a 16 dex and poor all ability increases into it, granting you a 20 by 20th. +5 for tomes and +6 dex gloves of the blanaced hand mean that you only need TWF, not the whole chain for your basic abilities.

The Giant wis bonus means that you don't really have to try to max it out.

- Another idea would be to trot out my mageslayer build. Rogue 2 / Monk 2 / Fighter 2 / swordsage x

Now get ray reflection in place of the monk evasion and focused attack in place of flurry of blows. Now chase down the mage slayer line and then pick up shadow blade.

You teleport up to a spellcaster, and hit them for good damage with a strike. Then next round you take a full round action to pull of a power attack that does double damage due to focused attack.

If they shoot at you with magic you reflect it back at them, then use desert sun to teleport next to them as a counter. If they AOE you evasion away. If they save or loose you, make the save with dimond mind. If the melee you kill them with your hands. If they run laugh and teleport around them with shadow hand and kill them.

[Devmaar]

It might fall in the same 'cheating' camp as the Quick trait, but I'm pretty the flight speed from Dragonborn's Wings aspect is irrespective of your base land speed

[flumphy]

-2 isn't a kiss of death to a dex build if you really want it. Shadow blade will grant dex to damage, negateing the need for strength at all. Start with a 16 dex and poor all ability increases into it, granting you a 20 by 20th. +5 for tomes and +6 dex gloves of the blanaced hand mean that you only need TWF, not the whole chain for your basic abilities.

The Giant wis bonus means that you don't really have to try to max it out.

- Another idea would be to trot out my mageslayer build. Rogue 2 / Monk 2 / Fighter 2 / swordsage x

Now get ray reflection in place of the monk evasion and focused attack in place of flurry of blows. Now chase down the mage slayer line and then pick up shadow blade.

You teleport up to a spellcaster, and hit them for good damage with a strike. Then next round you take a full round action to pull of a power attack that does double damage due to focused attack.

If they shoot at you with magic you reflect it back at them, then use desert sun to teleport next to them as a counter. If they AOE you evasion away. If they save or loose you, make the save with dimond mind. If the melee you kill them with your hands. If they run laugh and teleport around them with shadow hand and kill them.

That looks like something that would be fun to try in another group. Unfortunately, multiclass penalties and favored class: druid make it kind of impractical in this one.

On another note, it turns out there's a level 5 shadow hand stance that makes your speed 20. Normally, that's a penalty, but here, not so much. Sure, by then I'll have access to other options, but this is an option to fall back on.

[Fouredged Sword]

Shape soulmeld pegisus boots will grant you a 10ft fly speed at low levels. More if you can get essence to power it.

[MonarchAnarch]

All great ideas. Can go simplistic and hire a riding dog and let that transport you. Arrive via dog, perform full attack. Dog makes trip attack. yay!

[Lapak]

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the mechanics of it, but 'extremely slow Wis-based mundane combatant' makes me wonder if Zen Archery would be a useful road to explore? Doesn't that let you use WIS in place of DEX for ranged combat or some such?

[Lateral]

Speed boosts have been pretty well outlined above, so I'll just deal with combat. First of all, your WIS is going to be ridiculously high, so let's look at the X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) list.

Hmm... The Saint template gives you WIS to AC as an insight bonus without requiring actual levels, which should stack with Swordsage or Monk bonuses, and the other bonuses (including a CON bonus and a WIS bonus) make it well worth +2 LA. Think your group will let it fly? If this helps, just think of the image of a holy man-toad. Like, with a halo and everything. :smalltongue:

Intuitive Strike (from BoED) gives WIS to-hit on natural attacks and simple weapons; that could be quite useful, and it works with the Saint thing.

Does anyone have OA? Shiba Protector sounds like it would work; at least, it gets WIS to hit and to damage at 1st level.

What I'm getting from this is that unarmed strikes probably work best. An unarmed swordsage with Intuitive Strike and the Saint template would get 2xWIS to AC, WIS to hit, and WIS to damage (with certain maneuvers) from Insightful Strike. At this point, you're fairly WIS-SAD; you can dump STR and keep your DEX at about 10; the only other stat you need is CON for HP and Fortitude saves. With the bonus from Saint, it shouldn't be too hard to keep a decent CON, anyway.


Zen Archery is another option, too, and it has the advantage of not needing as many movement bonuses. Unfortunately, there aren't too many ways to add WIS to other things with a zen archer if you use multiclass penalties; swordsages don't work with archery, normally. However, there are a bunch of great homebrew archery disciplines on these forums; you can ask your group to see if they'd let them fly.

[TwylyghT]

Theres a Dash feat IIRC that give you +5 move speed if in light or no armor that would be just enough to qualify you for your maneuvers. Leap attack seems almost criminal to skip in this case. When not fighting unarmed i just get a strong mental image of a man toad using a quarterstaff or a reach variant of some sort, i think one is around somewhere (aka really really long stick)

If you can fit it in somewhere he would actually get quite a bit out of Zen Archery, even as a fall back. Be a big help when foes are outside of that 10 foot charge lol.

You should also petition for a 10 foot tongue slap attack *whipish*

[Thrice Dead Cat]

While the text of the Shadow Blade makes no mention of this fact, the table states that Dex is supposed to replace strength. I know, text over table and all, but unless this was errataed then you could make an argument that it was intended to do so. I'd have to stay in a shadow hand stance and use shadow hand weapons, but that's not too terrible.

It's worse than that. The table says "Shadow Sun weapons." There is no Shadow Sun discipline (officially), so we're clearly left with just the text. It is an issue, yes, but since the errata was borken, we're stuck with what we got... which is it adding, not replacing.





Yes, this is for an actual game that will be starting soon, hence why I wanted something playable from level 1. I'm not 100% sure what everyone else is playing yet. One person is probably going wildshape ranger (so that's out.) Another always plays a cloistered cleric or int-based caster, so I anticipate that's what he'll be doing. The third player...I have no idea.

Okay, it looks like you've got a fairly high OP group. That means that thing like the Quick trait will probably fly even if they "feel" like cheating. There is also the Dash feat - more or less +5 ft to movement for a feat - and Speed of Thought - be psionic, blow a feat, and get 10 ft of movement while focused.

Outside of those, you'd have to look elsewhere to get more movement speed. Or grab a different type of move speed (be it dog or wings or whatever).

EDIT: Derp idea

Gain a swim speed somehow, preferably one that is a static 20 or 30 ft. Have a friendly caster use "Fins to Feet" (SpC) on you. Enjoy your 20 or 30 ft. land speed for the rest of the spell duration - albeit at the cost of your swim speed.:smalltongue:

[Devmaar]

Isn't there an item that makes your 5' steps into 10' steps?

That would do it

[Talbot]

That looks like something that would be fun to try in another group. Unfortunately, multiclass penalties and favored class: druid make it kind of impractical in this one.

On another note, it turns out there's a level 5 shadow hand stance that makes your speed 20. Normally, that's a penalty, but here, not so much. Sure, by then I'll have access to other options, but this is an option to fall back on.

I think you could actually swing it with no multiclass penalties, you'd just have to reorganize... Rogue 1/Fighter 1/Monk 1/SS 1/Rogue +1/Fight +1/Monkl +1/SS +X has no multiclass penalties.

[LaughingRogue]

Whatever you end up doing, get a magic carpet

[flumphy]

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the mechanics of it, but 'extremely slow Wis-based mundane combatant' makes me wonder if Zen Archery would be a useful road to explore? Doesn't that let you use WIS in place of DEX for ranged combat or some such?

Yeah, an archer build is definitely one option. I'm skeptical as to whether it would be more effective than a well-built swordsage, but I could be horribly wrong.


Whatever you end up doing, get a magic carpet
Oh, I intend to use magic items as they become available. The early levels are going to hurt, though.


Isn't there an item that makes your 5' steps into 10' steps?

That would do it

Anyone have any idea if this exists? I skimmed through MIC but couldn't find anything like it.

[Dimers]

How about sohei? (Base class in OA, p.27) They can rage for +2 Str, +2 Dex, +10 speed ... once per day at 1st, twice per day at 3rd. So a dip (plus Extra Rage) could benefit your ninja-esque build. Like rangers and paladins, they start getting spells at 4th level, so I guess you'd want to stop before then. Or you could decide you're okay with getting a few minor spells, in which case your high Wisdom benefits the sohei's spellcasting.

EDIT to avoid double-posting: boots of skating (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#bootsofSkating) cost 7000 gp and constantly add 15' to your land speed.

[olentu]

Anyone have any idea if this exists? I skimmed through MIC but couldn't find anything like it.

Sparing dummy of the master or something of the like from arms and equipment I believe.

[Coidzor]

Why would you want a +6 wisdom for a non-caster? What do you want to use that for?

[Randomguy]

Play a monk fix. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122)

Level three is when things start looking up, I think, with wis to damage and a speed bonus as well.
The Dash feat gives you +5 speed, which doubles your speed the first time you take it.

[The-Mage-King]

Right. An idea to help out with the speed issues...


Take the trait "Quick". -1 Hp/level for a 10 foot land speed boost. If you took Dash as your first level feat, you have quadrupiled your base land speed.

[Coidzor]

Another way of getting around the speed limit would be Wild Cohort. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)

Or just mounts in general. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7414) Mules are 8 gp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#mountsAndRelatedGear) at character generation, and can be trained (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184888)for war (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10396.0). Donkeys are less impressive, but medium-sized for greater accessibility to places for the same price.

Cows are 10 gp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm), or 15 for an ox or to make bulls cost more. And they use the stats of a bison. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bison.htm)

[Tvtyrant]

Why would you want a +6 wisdom for a non-caster? What do you want to use that for?

That feat the makes your attack and damage come from your Wisdom, plus wisdom to AC? SAD as heck.

[flumphy]

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. Anything that rages is pointless to me, since I can never bring myself to rage. (I have this thing about resource management.) But if it comes down to taking the Quick trait to make this work, then I might have to.


Sparing dummy of the master or something of the like from arms and equipment I believe.
Thanks! Unfortunately, that costs 30,000gp and requires you to be a monk. And by the time I could afford it, I'd have other ways to solve the problem as a monk (or even a non-monk.)


Why would you want a +6 wisdom for a non-caster? What do you want to use that for?

To quote myself from the OP:


Once, as a joke for a one-shot, I rolled up an anthropomorphic toad monk. (Surprisingly, it survived the session, although its damage was obviously pitiful.) My DM actually ended up loving the concept and has been bugging me to resurrect it ever since, so I'm trying to think of ways to make the concept workable.


I'm doing it because it's silly, basically. If I can't actually patch together something playable without defeating the point, so be it, but at least I'll be able to say I tried and my DM will stop harassing me about playing a toad.

[Crasical]

If you're playing a toad, are you not going to make use of poisons? Seems like a waste.

Edit: I'm not actually sure what the rules are, but could you not pull something interesting off with jump checks for mobility?

[Drachasor]

Swordsage sounds like the coolest option, imho.

[Coidzor]

That feat the makes your attack and damage come from your Wisdom, plus wisdom to AC? SAD as heck.

What feat? There's one that lets you use it with simple and natural weapons and one that lets you use it with ranged weapons, but those are both for attack rolls only.


I'm doing it because it's silly, basically. If I can't actually patch together something playable without defeating the point, so be it, but at least I'll be able to say I tried and my DM will stop harassing me about playing a toad.

So you have no real concept at all then, then? Just salvage something out of the anthro toad. Ok.


Edit: I'm not actually sure what the rules are, but could you not pull something interesting off with jump checks for mobility?

With that low of a speed, I believe it'd just take him multiple rounds to get anywhere by jumping, if I'm remembering the Jumplomancer right.

...Which if they get a significant jump bonus from being toads, may be within the realm of possibility for the character.

[Crasical]

With that low of a speed, I believe it'd just take him multiple rounds to get anywhere by jumping, if I'm remembering the Jumplomancer right.

...Which if they get a significant jump bonus from being toads, may be within the realm of possibility for the character.

The image of a tiny zen toad man very slowly levitating across the battlefield amuses me, but because of his low speed he'd take a -12 to jump checks.

Edit: Oh, hey. There's a power in the Tome of Battle called Sudden Leap under the Tiger claw discipline that lets one make a jump check as a swift action and move the distance determined by the check result. If it was possible to optimize around his natural jump deficiencies (Can't get a running start because of low speed, flat -12 to jump checks) this might be something to get across the battlefield.

[Coidzor]

The image of a tiny zen toad man very slowly levitating across the battlefield amuses me, but because of his low speed he'd take a -12 to jump checks.

Hmm... and the only way I know of that can make his natural low base speed irrelevant involves multiple monk levels, stacking things like scout, barbarian, the quick trait, and wildshape ranger bonuses to move speed; multiple druid levels (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870138/The_Jumplomancer_-_are_you_serious), or several spells cast on the character...

And maybe some custom items of + Jump or a custom ring of jumping.


Edit: Oh, hey. There's a power in the Tome of Battle called Sudden Leap under the Tiger claw discipline that lets one make a jump check as a swift action and move the distance determined by the check result. If it was possible to optimize around his natural jump deficiencies (Can't get a running start because of low speed, flat -12 to jump checks) this might be something to get across the battlefield.

If it's the distance determined by the check result, that may be a specific trumps general exception to the doubling of DCs for not having a running jump. I'd have to look it up to double check... <_< >_> In which case, every increment of 5 on the roll gets one another square away.

Otherwise it's every increment of 10 on the roll that gets a single square in a straight line moved... And the tumble thing may or may not cause that to be furthered halved...

edit: Barbarian 1, Scout 1(I think), and Wildshape Ranger 1 all give +10 untyped to movement speed, as does the Quick Trait. So that's 3 levels and a trait for a 45 base move speed, and a not-bad compliment of skills and HD. Which would net a +4 bonus to jump checks from that. Boots of Striding and Springing(the same as taking Monk 3) would give a +10 enhancement bonus on top of that, which would get 55 move speed and +8 to jump checks from speed alone.

Expeditious Retreat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/expeditiousRetreat.htm)instead would get you up to 75 and a +16 to jump from speed alone. This is, however, personal range, so one would need to either UMD a wand or something more complicated, like a custom item, to get its effects. Which the guidelines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)think is in the neighbourhood of... uh... either 4,000 or 12,000 gp, depending up the CL. Though that 6th footnote always messes with me...

A ring of jumping (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#jumping) is +5 competence to Jump, and the guidelines give bonus squared * 100 gp for competence items to skills... So 10,000 gp for +10 ring of jumping. Which makes the 12,000 gp expedititous retreat continuous item for a +12 bonus to jump from the enhancement to move speed kind of amusing.

Jumplomancy depends upon being an Exemplar anyway, so WBL is a bit less tight for such things as it has to wait until higher levels anyway...

[flumphy]

Yeah. Toads don't gain any kind of racial bonuses to jump, unfortunately, so there's nothing that makes them particularly suited to jumplomancy.

Which seems kind of wrong, when you think about it...

[Coidzor]

Yeah. Toads don't gain any kind of racial bonuses to jump, unfortunately, so there's nothing that makes them particularly suited to jumplomancy.

Which seems kind of wrong, when you think about it...

Is terrible tragedy, yes. :smallfrown:

[Drachasor]

Yeah. Toads don't gain any kind of racial bonuses to jump, unfortunately, so there's nothing that makes them particularly suited to jumplomancy.

Which seems kind of wrong, when you think about it...

They in fact get a huge penalty because of their speed. You should talk the DM into letting you get a racial bonus to cancel out that penalty.

[Zaq]

I think just a straight-up Scout (possibly with a dip in Barbarian, depending) could be fun. You'd have like a 15' move speed, and you'd have to keep yourself moving at most of it to activate Skirmish. You'd be the slowest Scout ever, but you could have some fun with the whole "among my people, I am considered faster than anything known by normal mortals" thing.

Basically, you're amazingly slow, but you act like you're amazingly fast. "Behold the might of my speed, three times as fast as that of a normal man!" and all that. Swift Hunter would be perfect.

[Drachasor]

I think just a straight-up Scout (possibly with a dip in Barbarian, depending) could be fun. You'd have like a 15' move speed, and you'd have to keep yourself moving at most of it to activate Skirmish. You'd be the slowest Scout ever, but you could have some fun with the whole "among my people, I am considered faster than anything known by normal mortals" thing.

Basically, you're amazingly slow, but you act like you're amazingly fast. "Behold the might of my speed, three times as fast as that of a normal man!" and all that. Swift Hunter would be perfect.

Swordsage is like that, but there are some teleports that can be flavored as superfast movement. He'd be like a little Yoda.

[Jaklefire]

Why not add wis to AC using a monk's belt? I thought that did exactly that.

[flumphy]

I think just a straight-up Scout (possibly with a dip in Barbarian, depending) could be fun. You'd have like a 15' move speed, and you'd have to keep yourself moving at most of it to activate Skirmish. You'd be the slowest Scout ever, but you could have some fun with the whole "among my people, I am considered faster than anything known by normal mortals" thing.

Basically, you're amazingly slow, but you act like you're amazingly fast. "Behold the might of my speed, three times as fast as that of a normal man!" and all that. Swift Hunter would be perfect.

That's hilarious! No matter what route I go class-wise, I am so using the idea of being super-fast.

Skirmish works with archery like sneak attack does, correct?


Why not add wis to AC using a monk's belt? I thought that did exactly that.

They do. They don't stack with monk or swordsage bonuses, though, iirc.

[Coidzor]

Skirmish works with archery like sneak attack does, correct?

Skirmish works even better with archery than sneak attack, as you just have to move to activate it.

[Captain Six]

Scout speed bonuses don't stop after the first +10, ate level scouts eventually get a total of +30 to their base speed giving you an awkward 35 base speed. And skirmish with many-shot is the optimal way to play a Scout if I'm not mistaken; because you have to move 10 ft to get skirmish bonuses you only have a standard action to launch as many attacks as you can to take advantage of said damage bonuses.

Unfortunately you literally wont be able to use skirmish bonuses until level 3 (the first speed boost) because you need to move 10 feet and your toad only has base speed of 5 until then. So you'd need to pick up dash or have a friend cast Longstrider or something on you. I'm not sure how mounts work with skirmish, as hilarious as an anthro-toad on a warpony would be.

p.s. You had the perfect opportunity to name a thread "Battletoads!" why didn't you take it?

[Coidzor]

Barbarian 2, Wildshape Ranger 1, Scout X + Swift Hunter gives you a bunch of favored enemies to eliminate anyone's immunity to the skirmish, +20 move speed on top of the scout.

Or just Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#barbarian) 1/ScoutX

[Fouredged Sword]

If you go Varrient (other varrient from the SRD) druidic avenger Druid you get +20 ft move speed on top of favored enemy. Take a level of varrient barbarian for another favored enemy and movement. You get 2 favored enemies and 30ft extra movement at level 2.

[NineThePuma]

Take an early level of barbarian, and if you have issues raging, pick up the Berserker's Strength ACF; you get knocked down into low HP and auto rage.

[Seerow]

This thread mas me wanting to make a Anthromorphic Toad named Frog, who is a Knight. If only it had any sort of synergy with a knight....

[Coidzor]

Take an early level of barbarian, and if you have issues raging, pick up the Berserker's Strength ACF; you get knocked down into low HP and auto rage.

...So that you want to be easily killed by one hit whenever you're actually a relevant threat? :smallconfused:

Great for imitating the minions of 4e, not so great for anyone who actually wants to survive.

[NineThePuma]

<_< It was meant as a "you're already going to be taking a barbarian level anyways."

[Crasical]

...So that you want to be easily killed by one hit whenever you're actually a relevant threat? :smallconfused:

Great for imitating the minions of 4e, not so great for anyone who actually wants to survive.

The rage activates whenever you drop below 5x your barbarian level, so if you only dip barbarian, it's not quite a smart buy. Otherwise, it does help with people who hoard their Rages and end up never using them.

[Coidzor]

<_< It was meant as a "you're already going to be taking a barbarian level anyways."
Either way, as Crasical points out for other reasons, it's just plain bad advice.

If one's going to go with a variant rage, whirling frenzy + the extra rage feat beats it every time.


The rage activates whenever you drop below 5x your barbarian level, so if you only dip barbarian, it's not quite a smart buy. Otherwise, it does help with people who hoard their Rages and end up never using them.

Either they're never going to use it in that case as they're not suicidal or they're going to end up dying repeatedly/constantly trying to activate their "free" rage. So I fail to see how that is of "help" to them, unless by help you mean gets them killed or gets them to never rage.

And, for a dip, that's even worse as you've pointed out, which is what was being suggested.

[Crasical]

Either they're never going to use it in that case as they're not suicidal or they're going to end up dying repeatedly/constantly trying to activate their "free" rage. So I fail to see how that is of "help" to them, unless by help you mean gets them killed or gets them to never rage.

A straight barbarian 20 with 12 con and a medium roll of 6 on their d12 hit die and an assumed max HP at 1st level will have 146 HP, and will rage whenever their HP is below 100. That's means it's kicking in whenever the barbarian is around 2/3 HP remaining.
If you had a better Con, it's probably closer to 1/2 hits. To use your 4e metaphor, they're not like minions, they're Shifters, and their bonus kicks in when they are bloodied.

Edit: it's still bad for dips. I was trying to point out that it's a bad choice for this build, not a bad choice in general.

[Coidzor]

A straight barbarian 20 with 12 con and a medium roll of 6 on their d12 hit die and an assumed max HP at 1st level will have 146 HP, and will rage whenever their HP is below 100. That's means it's kicking in whenever the barbarian is around 2/3 HP remaining.
If you had a better Con, it's probably closer to 1/2 hits. To use your 4e metaphor, they're not like minions, they're Shifters, and their bonus kicks in when they are bloodied.

...So only if you are bad at being a barbarian and are unlikely to survive to level 20 in the first place is it good. That's, a point... Kind of meaningless, but a point.

[Crasical]

...So only if you are bad at being a barbarian and are unlikely to survive to level 20 in the first place is it good. That's, a point... Kind of meaningless, but a point.

... Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but the players in the game I'm in, you know, take damage. I'd rather have a barbarian that rages when he's taken some hits rather than one who never rages at all because the player is deathly afraid of using his limited number of rages per day.

[Coidzor]

... Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but the players in the game I'm in, you know, take damage. I'd rather have a barbarian that rages when he's taken some hits rather than one who never rages at all because the player is deathly afraid of using his limited number of rages per day.

That's my point. If you're a barbarian with 13 and then 20 hp at low levels, you gonna die.

And anyone who is deathly afraid of using up their rages per day and so never does so is either feat starved, doesn't have extra rage, or is just insistent upon playing barbarian wrong.

Or has been badly trained by their DM to take conservation of resources too far.

[Crasical]

That's my point. If you're a barbarian with 13 and then 20 hp at low levels, you gonna die.

Whereas the wizard with maybe 7hp is gonna do just fine? EVERYONE has crap HP at the start of the game, that's why the '1st level gets max hp on the die' rule exists. Sometimes the dice are against you and you roll 1 for HP at 2nd level, or dont' have a 14 or 16 to put in Con.


And anyone who is deathly afraid of using up their rages per day and so never does so is either feat starved, doesn't have extra rage, or is just insistent upon playing barbarian wrong.

Or has been badly trained by their DM to take conservation of resources too far.

Hate to trope, but this is a pretty endemic problem in general (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooAwesomeToUse), not just DnD. An MMO I play has extremely common drops that give a small but appreciable buff, and despite the rapid rate you earn them you still get people who can't bring themselves to pop that one-shot buff because they might need it later. If that's a problem people have, I can see players who hoard their Daily powers or Rages existing as well. Heck, the sorcerer in our current game hasn't finished a session without unused spells in his bank yet.

Telling them that they're playing a class wrong isn't going to help, either.

[Coidzor]

Whereas the wizard with maybe 7hp is gonna do just fine? EVERYONE has crap HP at the start of the game, that's why the '1st level gets max hp on the die' rule exists. Sometimes the dice are against you and you roll 1 for HP at 2nd level, or dont' have a 14 or 16 to put in Con.

Wizard is actually avoiding damage. Barbarian is blocking it with his face, and since he doesn't have any real edge by being unable to rage until he's half dead and lacks feats...


Telling them that they're playing a class wrong isn't going to help, either.

No, since you're their DM the responsibility for diplomacy and education falls to you. I have no obligation to your or any other hypothetical players to be anything but blunt, as I'm not trying to convince them to change, I'm making an observation.


Hate to trope, but this is a pretty endemic problem in general (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooAwesomeToUse),

Also,if you hated to trope, you wouldn't have provided a link. So, yeah...

[Drachasor]

Hmm, going back to something I said before, is there a better way to make something Yoda-like than just going Swordsage within the limitations provided?

[Coidzor]

Hmm, going back to something I said before, is there a better way to make something Yoda-like than just going Swordsage within the limitations provided?

Considering an actual force-user ported into 3.X would violate the OP's restrictions, I'd say no.

[Crasical]

Also,if you hated to trope, you wouldn't have provided a link. So, yeah...

:smallsmile: Yeah, I actually am a big fan of TVtropes.

:smallannoyed: .... Why did you specifically call that out though? Have you not ever heard that idiom before? It's like 'With all due respect', it doesn't actually mean anything, just a phrase used to politely segue into a dissenting opinion.


Wizard is actually avoiding damage. Barbarian is blocking it with his face, and since he doesn't have any real edge by being unable to rage until he's half dead and lacks feats...

He's not half dead, he's more than half alive! :smallcool:

[SirChuck]

There's a psionic archer prestige class ( I can't seem to remember it's name right now, it's from one of the 3.5 psionic books, probably from the Complete series) that while technically psionic, doesn't actually advance or give you any powers what so ever.

It lets you conjure up arrows with your mind, kind of like a bow-centered soulknife (without as much suck)... You get Wisdom to Damage, and you could technically "dual-wield' your psionic arrows because you pretty much shoot them out of your hands.

As far as I remember, this class has 10 levels, and at top level it lets you get +3 enhcancement modifier to your ranged psionic arrow attacks and exchange it for various special abilities.

It's not a very good class, but you can be a toad-man shooting mind arrows out of it's palms. Add a level of monk and Zen Archery, and you'll be getting Wisdom to AC, hit and damage!

I think to qualify for this prestige class you need a few levels of Mindblade and like 1 power point that you will never use - and you could probably ask your DM to make the entry easier.

EDIT: Confirmed, it's Soulbow from Complete Psionic (3.5). Can't get in deeper, don't have my books nearby.

[flumphy]

Hate to trope, but this is a pretty endemic problem in general (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooAwesomeToUse), not just DnD. An MMO I play has extremely common drops that give a small but appreciable buff, and despite the rapid rate you earn them you still get people who can't bring themselves to pop that one-shot buff because they might need it later. If that's a problem people have, I can see players who hoard their Daily powers or Rages existing as well. Heck, the sorcerer in our current game hasn't finished a session without unused spells in his bank yet.

Telling them that they're playing a class wrong isn't going to help, either.

Yep, that's totally me. And why 4e was unplayable for me until I was introduced to Essentials. I know it's not always the best decision tactically, but in order to enjoy the game at all it's how I have to be. That's why ToB is so awesome. I can go all out and still get everything back the next combat.



Hmm, going back to something I said before, is there a better way to make something Yoda-like than just going Swordsage within the limitations provided?

That's pretty much what I was asking in the first place. :smallwink:



--Soulbow Stuff--
Yeah, I've done some tinkering with the soulbow just as a psionic-flavored character I could stand. I actually saw an anthropomorphic bat build that did what you suggested awhile back. Assuming the guy's math was right, it put out okay damage. Unfortunately, with the toad's lower maneuverability, I worry that it would be worthless at early levels.

[Devmaar]

Now, is there any way for this character to shoot poison from their eyes?

[Parra]

Now, is there any way for this character to shoot poison from their eyes?

or hypnotise people.....

[Devmaar]

or hypnotise people.....

Thrallherds don't need much movement...

[Lateral]

Thrallherds don't need much movement...

No. No, they do not.

Hypno-Toad
Diminutive Animal
HD 16d4+320 (384)
Speed 15 ft. (3 squares)
Init: +8
AC 51 (+4 size, +8 Dex, +5 natural, +12 insight, +12 luck; touch 46; flat-footed 42
BAB +7; Grp +6
Attack –
Full-Attack –
Space 1 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks Psionics, psionic charm, psionic dominate, greater dominate, superior dominate, SLAs
Special Qualities Amphibious, low-light vision, telepathy 100 ft., thrallherd, twofold master, resist fire/cold 10, DR 10/epic, SR 50, fast healing 20
Saves Fort +24 Ref +22 Will +32
Abilities Str 16, Dex 27, Con 26, Int 31 (+5 tome, +6 item), Wis 29, Cha 30 (+5 tome, +6 item)
Skills Hide +38, Listen +21, Spot +21, Knowledge (psionics) +39, Diplomacy +45, Bluff +39, Intimidate +32, Sense Motive +35, Concentration +37, Psicraft +40, Knowledge (Nobility/Royalty) +26
Feats Inquisitor, Psionic Meditation, Burrowing Power, Extend Power, Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis), Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct), Expanded Knowledge (Form of Doom), Mindsight, Craft Dorje
Environment The year 3000
Organization Empire (1 hypnotoad plus all of humanity as his mind-controlled slaves)
Challenge Rating 25. No, really. Blame WotC and their CR system.
Treasure PHAT LEWT
Alignment Lawful Evil
Advancement Seriously? Why the hell would you bother?
Level Adjustment *DMG to the nuts*

Psion Powers Known (ML 29 (14 plus bonus from template), power points 315, base save DC 20 + power level): 1st- Astral Construct, Psionic Charm, Inertial Armor, Mindlink, Energy Ray; 2nd- Read Thoughts, Psionic Suggestion, Brain Lock, Ego Whip, Share Pain; 3rd- Crisis of Breath, False Sensory Input, Telekinetic Force, Telekinetic Thrust, Forced Share Pain; 4th- Metamorphosis, Psionic Dominate, Thieving Mindlink, Psionic Modify Memory, Schism; 5th- Mind Probe, Shatter Mind Blank, Psychic Crush, Psionic True Seeing, Psionic Plane Shift; 6th- Form of Doom, Mass Cloud Mind, Psionic Contingency, Psionic Overland Flight; 7th- Insanity, Personal Mind Blank, Decerebrate.
-------
It's a Paragon Toad Telepath 5/ Mindbender 1/ Thrallherd 10. You're welcome.

@V: Ardents are based off of WIS. What are you talking about? Besides, that's not the point.

[the_archduke]

Couldn't you make that more SAD by making it an Ardent/Mindbender/Thrallherd

get mindlink from Hidden Talent, Expanded Knowledge, or a custom Mantle

[Sneaky Weasel]

I have an Anthropomorphic Toad for a PbP game I'm in, but mine is slightly different. For one, he was originally a human who was warped into his current form by evil magic. Two, I'm portraying him as tragic rather then silly. Three, I'm not very concerned about him being terribly powerful, and four, he's an Assassin(homebrew). After making him, I found this thread, so I thought I'd post him here. Here's the sheet, (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=358567) if anyone's interested in looking.

[TuggyNE]

I have an Anthropomorphic Toad for a PbP game I'm in, but mine is slightly different. For one, he was originally a human who was warped into his current form by evil magic. Two, I'm portraying him as tragic rather then silly. Three, I'm not very concerned about him being terribly powerful, and four, he's an Assassin(homebrew). After making him, I found this thread, so I thought I'd post him here. Here's the sheet, (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=358567) if anyone's interested in looking.

:durkon:: TURN UNTHREAD!