PF Pimp my Eidolon: Gundolon

[grarrrg]

Disclaimer: This is a 'fun' build. I do not intend to use this build anytime soon, but feel free to steal ideas.

This build was inspired by the Leaping Shot Deed (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/playtests/paizo---ultimate-combat/gunslinger/grit-feats/leaping-shot-deed) feat from Ultimate Combat.
This feat allows you to spend a Grit Point to move and shoot "at your highest base attack bonus with each loaded firearm you are wielding." Firearms also target TOUCH AC.

The goal here is to abuse the wazoo out of this.

Links:
Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner)
Gunslinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger)
Firearms (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/firearms)
Grit Feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/playtests/paizo---ultimate-combat/gunslinger/grit-feats)

The obvious starting point is Arms. LOTS of arms. There are 3 ways to do this.
1. An Alchemist can take discoveries to gain a total of 2 arms, and a Tentacle, giving him 5 'hands' worth of firearms. He can only gain an arm once every 2 levels though, this is a little slow, and there are better options.
2. Go Summoner and pimp your Eidolon. Eidolons can gain 2 arms for 2 evolution points, at Summoner 8, your Eidolon can have up to 12 arms. Problem with this is that Leaping Shot has _4_ pre-req feats, not to mention the Exotic Weapon prof for firearms, so this build would require a high Summoner level before it could get rolling.
3. This is our option of choice. Synthesist Summoner (you 'become' your Eidolon). This gives us a few advantages, the chief of which is Class Dipping.

Because of reloading issues this is more a "nova" build, kill as many as you can in the first round, and hope you did enough damage by round 2.
Ways to help with reloading are Cartridges, Rapid Reload feat, and Lightning Reload Deed (Gunslinger 11)

Race will either be Human (bonus feat) or Half-Elf (extra Evolution Points)
Eidolon base form is either Biped or Serpentine. Biped only has 12 base Dex, but starts with 2 Arms. Serpentine has 16 base Dex but no arms.

Human Leaping Shot Starter Package Level 8 (Leaping shot can be had as early as level 5 with this build, but it the build is very feat starved)
Gunslinger 1 (Mysterious Stranger Archetype) gives us Firearm proficiency, and has better Grit than the Amateur Gunslinger feat gives (and saves us from taking it as a feat too!). Mysterious Stranger let's us use Cha for Grit instead of Wis. The Quick Clear Deed is replaced with Focused Aim, which let's you spend Grit to gain bonus damage on ALL firearm attacks equal to your CHA MOD, until the END OF YOUR TURN *evil laughter*
Summoner 7 (Synthesist/Serpentine) gives us 10 Evolution points which gives us up to 10 arms (can also spend points on ability increases, or utility powers).

Eidolon form stats at Char level 8 are
Bab 7
Str 15 (12 base +3 Str/Dex bonus) Dex 20 (16 base form, +3 Str/Dex bonus, +1 eidolon bonus point) Con 13
Can also put bonus point(s) into Con for better HP
(Adding arms costs 2 Evo-points for 2 arms which gives us 2 attacks.
+2 Dex costs 2 Evo-points for a +1 to hit on all attacks.
Currently +2 attacks is better than +1 to hit.)

For base stats we need 13 Dex for feat reqs (can do more if you don't want to be 'quite' so Eidolon dependent), good Con for HP, and good Cha for casting and Grit Points. Str is a dump because we will be spending most of our time in Eidolon form (Str gets replaced). Int is a dump because we don't need the skills. And Wis is not necessary because the Summoner/Eidolon has a good Will save.

Feats:
1 Point Blank Shot
1 Rapid Reload (human feat)
3 Dodge
5 Mobility
7 Leaping Shot Deed

4 more levels of Gunslinger gets +4 Bab a Bonus feat, more Deeds, and Gun Training (Dex to damage!)
3 more levels of Summoner/Eidolon gets +2 Bab, more +Str/Dex, another Ability increase, and 4 more evo points.
Dipping 1 or 2 levels of Fighter may be a good idea for the quick Bonus Feats.

Thoughts? Corrections? Additions?

[The Gilded Duke]

Play a Half-Giant
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/half-giant
Half Giants have powerful build, letting them act as large size for the purposes of wielding weapons etc.

Pick up a level of Gunslinger as mentioned before.
Pick up two levels of Titan Mauler Barbarian. Titan Mauler lets you wield two handed weapons in one hand at a -2 penalty.
You can now wield two handed large sized weapons with one hand.

Take Synthesist Summoner and pick up lots of Limbs evolutions.

Get a bunch of Cannons.
Large sized creatures can use large sized direct fire siege weapons as two handed firearms. You can wield them one handed.

Get your ten arms, on top of your two base arm limbs.
You now have 12 arms.
You can now wield 12 cannons and fire them as one full round action with leaping Shot.

[Cieyrin]

Since Summoner and Gunslinger are some of my favorite classes in PF currently and that I'm in the process of writing up an update to my Gunslinger Playtest guide, I have a couple thoughts on this.

If you're starting as a Gunslinger, I'd suggest moving Rapid Reload down to 1st level on your pistol so you can have a regular fire rate. Also using paper cartridges (Ultimate Combat 140) will lower the reload rate as well and stacks with Rapid Reload, so you can make free action reloads with pistols at the cost of increased misfire rate (only increasing it by 1) and increased cost of each shot, which is a small sacrifce.

Also heavily consider going Mysterious Stranger archetype for the Gunslinger side to change the Grit stat over to Charisma, something you're already using.

Lightning Reload isn't a Grit feat anymore, it's an 11th level feature of Gunslinger that indeed got nerfed since the playtest (annoying, that :smallyuk:). So something you may never have to worry about.

Final bit is that, since you have a proliferation of hands anyways, you only need 1 free hand to reload a gun, so if you leave one of your hands free, you can free action reload to your heart's content. Alternatively, UMD is a class skill of Summoner and a wand of Extended Reloading Hands cast on each of your firearms will get you a second shot off with that gun each round. If you ever manage to get high enough to pick up Lightning Reload, you can save a charge since Lightning Reload does the same thing.

If we can get this build cleaned up, I'd happily add it to the Build section of my guide, as this looks really awesome. Due credit would be given, of course. :smallwink:

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[grarrrg]

Also heavily consider going Mysterious Stranger archetype...

Lightning Reload isn't a Grit feat anymore...

If we can get this build cleaned up, I'd happily add it to the Build section of my guide, as this looks really awesome. Due credit would be given, of course. :smallwink:

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

I don't have the book for Ultimate Combat, I've just been going by what's on the PFsrd...
Anyone else is free to clean up the build some.

EDIT: And I just noticed that they have the official Gunslinger write up on the Main page now (crazy reading/edit time)
They don't have the final Grit Feats up yet though.

[Frosty]

Since Summoner and Gunslinger are some of my favorite classes in PF currently and that I'm in the process of writing up an update to my Gunslinger Playtest guide, I have a couple thoughts on this.

If you're starting as a Gunslinger, I'd suggest moving Rapid Reload down to 1st level on your pistol so you can have a regular fire rate. Also using paper cartridges (Ultimate Combat 140) will lower the reload rate as well and stacks with Rapid Reload, so you can make free action reloads with pistols at the cost of increased misfire rate (only increasing it by 1) and increased cost of each shot, which is a small sacrifce.

Also heavily consider going Mysterious Stranger archetype for the Gunslinger side to change the Grit stat over to Charisma, something you're already using.

Lightning Reload isn't a Grit feat anymore, it's an 11th level feature of Gunslinger that indeed got nerfed since the playtest (annoying, that :smallyuk:). So something you may never have to worry about.

Final bit is that, since you have a proliferation of hands anyways, you only need 1 free hand to reload a gun, so if you leave one of your hands free, you can free action reload to your heart's content. Alternatively, UMD is a class skill of Summoner and a wand of Extended Reloading Hands cast on each of your firearms will get you a second shot off with that gun each round. If you ever manage to get high enough to pick up Lightning Reload, you can save a charge since Lightning Reload does the same thing.

If we can get this build cleaned up, I'd happily add it to the Build section of my guide, as this looks really awesome. Due credit would be given, of course. :smallwink:

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.
How was Lightning Reload nerfed? The way I read it, once you hit 11th level, you can reload as free actions all you want, and it only requires that you HAVE a grit point in your pool.

[grarrrg]

How was Lightning Reload nerfed? The way I read it, once you hit 11th level, you can reload as free actions all you want, and it only requires that you HAVE a grit point in your pool.

From the PFsrd
"...gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round....can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead...."

It clearly says "single barrel" and "once per round". Rapid reload merely replaces Swift Action with Free Action.

[Cieyrin]

How was Lightning Reload nerfed? The way I read it, once you hit 11th level, you can reload as free actions all you want, and it only requires that you HAVE a grit point in your pool.

Lets do a quick comparison. The old feat read:
Lightning Reload Deed (Grit)
Spend grit to reload a single firearm with a free action.
Prerequisites: Grit class feature or Amateur Gunslinger feat, Rapid Reload
Benefit: Spend 1 grit point to reload a single barrel of a firearm as a free action. You can only perform this deed if you are wearing light or no armor.
The new deed reads:
Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

So basically, pluses are:
+ No armor restriction
+ No grit cost, just have grit
+ No AoO
Minuses are:
- Once per round
- Defaults to swift action without investment
- Comes after everyone has already figured out how to free action reload
- Gunslinger only, no other base classes can take it

It's that once per round bit and how late it comes that kills it for me. I mean, in the playtest, that was the feat everyone immediately ran for. I suppose making it a class feature makes it not a feat tax but Rapid Reload still is and if I want to use iteratives or multiple guns (which is now harder, due to Paizo remembering to put in the 'one free hand' clause. Nice while it lasted. :smallamused:), it's just not that useful, unfortunately. Sucks that something that was awesome isn't anymore but them's the breaks. :smallannoyed:

Also, wish Google Laptops wouldn't hate Paizo PDFs so much, considering it's the computer I have now and it freaks out whenever I scroll or try to read them. :smallfurious:

Also of relevance, the Gunslinger's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11719683#post11719683) is now officially up! :smallbiggrin:

[Frosty]

Lets do a quick comparison. The old feat read:
The new deed reads:

So basically, pluses are:
+ No armor restriction
+ No grit cost, just have grit
+ No AoO
Minuses are:
- Once per round
- Defaults to swift action without investment
- Comes after everyone has already figured out how to free action reload
- Gunslinger only, no other base classes can take it

It's that once per round bit and how late it comes that kills it for me. I mean, in the playtest, that was the feat everyone immediately ran for. I suppose making it a class feature makes it not a feat tax but Rapid Reload still is and if I want to use iteratives or multiple guns (which is now harder, due to Paizo remembering to put in the 'one free hand' clause. Nice while it lasted. :smallamused:), it's just not that useful, unfortunately. Sucks that something that was awesome isn't anymore but them's the breaks. :smallannoyed:

Also, wish Google Laptops wouldn't hate Paizo PDFs so much, considering it's the computer I have now and it freaks out whenever I scroll or try to read them. :smallfurious:

Also of relevance, the Gunslinger's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11719683#post11719683) is now officially up! :smallbiggrin:There's not much on the new guide yet, but I look forward to seeing its completion! And yeah, the old feat I feel still kinda sucks because one round of rloading and you're out of Grit. The new verion comes too late to be of too much use I guess.

But still, alchemical paper cartridges have a higher crit failure rate...so for muskets and pepperboxes we're talking about a 15% chance to get the broken condition. Kind of eww.

[Cieyrin]

There's not much on the new guide yet, but I look forward to seeing its completion! And yeah, the old feat I feel still kinda sucks because one round of rloading and you're out of Grit. The new verion comes too late to be of too much use I guess.

But still, alchemical paper cartridges have a higher crit failure rate...so for muskets and pepperboxes we're talking about a 15% chance to get the broken condition. Kind of eww.

The Grit issue with the old feat is why I pushed crits so hard for getting grit back. Also why I suggested Signaturing it but that's not really so relevant now.

As for the high failure rate, that's what Quick Clear is for! :smallwink: Also Stabilize Powder and Reliable are good for early anti-failure measures. With a 3 or lower, you were liable to miss, anyways, even on touch AC unless you're hitting big, slow creatures, which isn't liable at low levels before you can afford to Steadfast your favorite musket.

[Frosty]

Do you feel the "Lucky" enchantment is worth it for firearms? An extra Grit point is nice I suppose...and it can help against misfires.

[grarrrg]

More thinking/digging/plotting.

Grit is regained in one of two ways: Critical hit with a firearm, or reducing a creature to 0 or less HP.
This build can probably start a fight with 1 Grit, and end it at full Grit.

Leaping Shot lets you move and fire ANY gun at ANY point during the move. You know where this is going: STRAFING RUN!!
Sadly the Serpentine form has a base speed of only 20ft. so we would have to trade in some arms for legs, BUT this puts the Quadruped back on the table as a possible choice.
Just listing the relevant base stats (reminder, +2 to a stat is worth 2 evo-points, but can only be taken once every 6 summoner levels)
Biped has 12 Dex, Arms and Legs (~4 evo-points)
Quadruped has 14 Dex, x2 Legs (~6 evo-points)
Serpentine has 16 Dex (~4 evo-points, also has a Climb speed, while less relevant, it is still worth considering)

So if we are looking to build a Strafer then Biped is probably the worst choice, as Dex is the hardest to boost, and it has less (relevant) base evolutions than Quadruped.
If we don't care as much about accuracy (or just want as many attacks as possible) than Biped shoots to the top, as it already has Arms.

Level Dips:
Rogue 2, grants 1d6 sneak attack, and the Rogue Talent of your choice (recommend using it for the combat feat).
(Anti)Paladin 2, Cha to saves, full Bab, lots of (weak) Lay on hands, and a 1-day Smite Evil to get Cha to attack (and more) against one (evil) target.

Improved Initiative should be added to our "feats to get someday" list.

Scenario: We win initiative, pop our Swift action for Smite Evil (accuracy) or Focused Aim (damage), charge at the bad guys, firing off a dozen or so rounds (all with 1d6 Sneak attack damage!).
There are no survivors.

[Drothmal]

I really like this idea! it seems a lot of fun...

On the dipping, I think that ninja would be better than rogue. Ninja 2= forgotten trick = combat feat of choice whenever you want

Also, ki give you extra attacks and other goods. And this is all CHA synergy


EDIT: At that level, you have enough money to consider taking Quick draw and just carrying around a bizillion guns, so you can sustain the damage over time (fire, drop weapons, draw. Repeat. pick up all weapons at the end of the fight)


EDIT 2: I think that biped is still teh best option. At that level, making ranged TOUCH attacks should be fairly easy with such a high BAB. Couple it with ability to buff your own DEX to +4, and you might be better served having two more shots over a DEX bump

Unless you are taking the build further down the gunslinger road and you want to deal DEX damage

[Cieyrin]

Do you feel the "Lucky" enchantment is worth it for firearms? An extra Grit point is nice I suppose...and it can help against misfires.

Lucky and Reliable are definitely worth considering early on, the only problem being they lock the weapon against the upgrades by RAW, since you can't have both on the weapon. Lucky is better than it was, since you don't need Weapon Focus any more, it's just a balance now for short term benefits now vs. saving money later by not having to make a whole new gun with the better enhancements later. A reasonable DM would allow you to replace the enhancement but I'm gonna have a look at the PF WBL to see how much of a problem it is to have to start from scratch...

[grarrrg]

Final-ish build can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11748177).

[Frosty]

Lucky and Reliable are definitely worth considering early on, the only problem being they lock the weapon against the upgrades by RAW, since you can't have both on the weapon. Lucky is better than it was, since you don't need Weapon Focus any more, it's just a balance now for short term benefits now vs. saving money later by not having to make a whole new gun with the better enhancements later. A reasonable DM would allow you to replace the enhancement but I'm gonna have a look at the PF WBL to see how much of a problem it is to have to start from scratch...
Lucky I don't mind keeping. Reliable will seem like a complete waste come level 13 however, so I'll need to talk to my DM about that.

[Drothmal]

Actually, I have a question about this build....

Don't you need some type of multi-weapon fighting? I run a game where one of the PCs is a synthesist, and I made him take multiweapon fighting to be able to use 4 swords.... I would think you need the same for guns. But I don't know a lot about guns (I was going to look at the handbook, thanks for the link!)


EDIT: I see, that's why you needed the leaping shot deed! It'd bypass all the multiweapon needs

[ZDPhoenix]

I'm sorry for the thread-o-mancy here.

However, I am VERY interested in playing something like this in Carrion Crown.

Due to the lack of a search function, I found it better to ask a few questions here.

Have you thought any further on this unique mashing?

Ever plot this out on a sheet before?

General forum question: Has anyone actually tried this build before in a one shot, or a campaign?

How would you holster all the guns; when you're not in Gundolon form? I'm particularly interested in suggested placement. (I assume, two thigh rigs, two hip holsters, two shoulder rigs... and eventually two small of the back and waistband?)

What exactly would the Gundolon form look like? Would I really have a snake bottom, if I went serpentine? I don't know much about summoners; as there's only ever been one played in our games, over the years.

I own the softcover of Fantasy Firearms (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/90810/Campaign-Overlay%3A-Fantasy-Firearms) and the original cheap PDFs it was based off of, from Skortched Urf.

The ever-loaded enchant it provides seems so overpowered with this (It's exactly what you think it is) immensely. Any opinion?

However, the book does have some great ideas, feats and types of pistols for Gunslingers and storytellers that aren't running games in a crazy "There's huge cannons and Numerian alien tech... but no pistols" Hyborian Age.

Thanks in advance for any further glory you can bestow upon this hilarious idea!

[grarrrg]

Have you thought any further on this unique mashing?

What exactly would the Gundolon form look like? Would I really have a snake bottom, if I went serpentine? I don't know much about summoners; as there's only ever been one played in our games, over the years.


There's a (slightly) more up to date version in the Gunslinger Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12152413#post12152413) thread.

The only Major book since that version was the Advanced Race guide, and it doesn't significantly contribute (it can help, but nothing major).

As far as how it "looks", kinda like this:
http://www.horrorstew.com/images/sixshooterPM005.jpg

*please redirect all further inquiries/questions/replies to either a New Thread, or the Gunslinger Handbook thread, this goes for everyone, thank you for your cooperation*