A challenge, create Life before epic level.

[Slii Arhem]

There are all kinds of crazy things you can do with epic spell seeds and no one is disputing that, but one of the most intriguing in my opinion is to create new sentient creatures from scratch. So it got me to thinking, is there any way to do that Before epic level, preferably at the lowest level possible for a hard caster.

Just to get the ball rolling, I'll throw out an SRD only method that requires a somewhat loose interpretation of a table.

1. Stone shape to create a statue
2. Stone to flesh to turn it into a corpse
3. Polymorph any object to turn it into a being with an intelligence score
4. ???
5. Life!

Now depending on who you ask, this either makes a real, permanent person based on the Poly any object table, or makes a dispoable mook for a week. It certainly isn't foolproof, or pretty, so that's where you all come in.

Is there a better way to commit frankensteinian atrocities using sweet sciency Magic? Let me know, no source too obscure, no spell too heinous!

Edit: You know, when I asked people to commit atrocities against nature, the miracle of birth wasn't the first thing to spring to mind.

[NichG]

Incarnate Construct is the nominally legit way to do it, but is crappy. Polymorph Any Object is much better. TO-style arguments suggest that you can do staged PaOs to make things permanent by breaking them up into stages. E.g. polymorph a pebble into a statue, a statue into a big earth elemental creature, then the big earth elemental creature into a smaller, stupider dwarf.

Plus PaO doesn't seem to have any rules for HD, and they even give an example of turning a pebble into a gryphon, so there's no real reason not to PaO yourself some friendly Hecatonchieres except the limitations imposed by any sane DM.

[Yukitsu]

I think I've mentioned this before.

True creation a corpse. (or many, many fabricates depending on type of campaign)
polymorph any object the corpse into a living version of itself.
Kill him.
Dismiss the polymorph.
Use raise dead on the corpse.

And unlike the below examples, non disjunctionable as it's not a magical living being.

Edit: Best when done with shadow crafters.

[Crow]

Seduce a charming maiden.

Knock her up.

[Yukitsu]

I think she's doing more of the work on that one.

[Thalnawr]

I think she's doing more of the work on that one.
Ok then, be a charming maiden. Seduce some dude, have him knock you up?

[Sactheminions]

Ok then, be a charming maiden. Seduce some dude, have him knock you up?

How is someone else doing most of the work not an advantage?

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, it's easy... 'be a woman'...

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Looks like I got beat to the punch on the simplest way to do it.

I think I've mentioned this before.

True creation a corpse. (or many, many fabricates depending on type of campaign)
polymorph any object the corpse into a living version of itself.
Kill him.
Dismiss the polymorph.
Use raise dead on the corpse.

And unlike the below examples, non disjunctionable as it's not a magical living being.

Edit: Best when done with shadow crafters.The one hitch here is that the soul must be free and willing to return for Raise Dead to work. I'm not even sure if it has a soul by RAW, let alone if that soul would want to return given the circumstances. And if it doesn't have a soul... how does that work?

[Zaq]

Yea, it's easy... 'be a woman'...

Certain religious stories aside, I'm pretty sure that's only half of what humans need to reproduce.

[flumphy]

Certain religious stories aside, I'm pretty sure that's only half of what humans need to reproduce.

1. Be a biological female.
2. Wait approximately 10 days after your aunt Flo comes to visit. Alter self into a male. (Yes, changing gender is explicitly allowed in the spell description.)
2. Do what, um, needs to be done, and collect the results.
3. Dismiss the spell. Proceed with artificial insemination.
4. Repeat daily for about a week to be safe. If that fails, try again next month.
5. Congratulations, you're a really sick person. But you're way under epic level and you did it all on your own.

If you wait till you're higher level, you can use polymorph and make your own half-dragons or other hybrids.

[Chilingsworth]

1. Be a biological female.
2. Wait approximately 10 days after your aunt Flo comes to visit. Alter self into a male. (Yes, changing gender is explicitly allowed in the spell description.)
2. Do what, um, needs to be done, and collect the results.
3. Dismiss the spell. Proceed with artificial insemination.
4. Repeat daily for about a week to be safe. If that fails, try again next month.
5. Congratulations, you're a really sick person. But you're way under epic level and you did it all on your own.

If you wait till you're higher level, you can use polymorph and make your own half-dragons or other hybrids.

Funny, I thought anything that got separated from someone who's using Alter Self/Polymorph reverts back to its original form, i.e. that's why posion attacks don't work?

[Hanuman]

I think theres a bunch of spells that already create life, if you are talking about creating a human being from thin air as opposed to growing one out of already available components, then that's trickier. I think theres a cloning spell though.

If you dont have to have it a human, i think theres little beings and animal things you can make out out a few hundred xp here and there.

[flumphy]

Funny, I thought anything that got separated from someone who's using Alter Self/Polymorph reverts back to its original form, i.e. that's why posion attacks don't work?


When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.

So theoretically, as long as you held onto the container the entire time, you'd be fine. The only thing keeping you from making poison attacks is the fact that alter self doesn't give you any of the new form's special attacks. Polymorph does, in fact, allow you to use poison attacks if you choose a shape that has them. And if poison doesn't count as a body part, I have a hard time believing that other bodily fluids should.

[BobVosh]

Some hermaphrodites can technically knock themselves up. Extraordinarily rare, though.

I know a dragonwrought kobold that is 800 or something like that can qualify for epic feats. You can start that old, if you don't mind the extreme cheese factor.

[mootoall]

True Creation/Major Creation some Amino Acids, Genesis a plane with a hugely accelerated time trait, toss the genetic material in, set the conditions for evolution of life, wait five minutes.

[Piggy Knowles]

The Slaadi ability Implant is an (Ex) special attack, so if you can find a way to Polymorph/Metamorph into an Outsider, you can make little Slaadi babies to your heart's content.

[Yukitsu]

Looks like I got beat to the punch on the simplest way to do it.
The one hitch here is that the soul must be free and willing to return for Raise Dead to work. I'm not even sure if it has a soul by RAW, let alone if that soul would want to return given the circumstances. And if it doesn't have a soul... how does that work?

True it can refuse, but not all things will. As for the RAW, spells that steal soul etc. work on rocks and so forth that were PAOd, so it does have a soul of some description. I generally view it as evidence that natural objects have spirits ala Japanese Kami. Of course, a true created corpse is probably one of the more unnatural things out there, but meh.

More importantly, note the corpse need not conform to any existant creature, it simply has to be biologically viable. (or not, in which case its existance is short and painful.)

Edit: Also importantly, if done with invisible spell, you can create a race of excellent assassins.


1. Be a biological female.
2. Wait approximately 10 days after your aunt Flo comes to visit. Alter self into a male. (Yes, changing gender is explicitly allowed in the spell description.)
2. Do what, um, needs to be done, and collect the results.
3. Dismiss the spell. Proceed with artificial insemination.
4. Repeat daily for about a week to be safe. If that fails, try again next month.
5. Congratulations, you're a really sick person. But you're way under epic level and you did it all on your own.

If you wait till you're higher level, you can use polymorph and make your own half-dragons or other hybrids.

I've done something like this, but it involved a belt of gender change, time travel and a stick.

[sreservoir]

Some hermaphrodites can technically knock themselves up. Extraordinarily rare, though.

that means it's within the means of a changeling, right?

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

I've done something like this, but it involved a belt of gender change, time travel and a stick.

What did you need the stick for? :smallconfused:

[Yukitsu]

What did you need the stick for? :smallconfused:

She was the father.

[faceroll]

1. Be a biological female.
2. Wait approximately 10 days after your aunt Flo comes to visit. Alter self into a male. (Yes, changing gender is explicitly allowed in the spell description.)
2. Do what, um, needs to be done, and collect the results.
3. Dismiss the spell. Proceed with artificial insemination.
4. Repeat daily for about a week to be safe. If that fails, try again next month.
5. Congratulations, you're a really sick person. But you're way under epic level and you did it all on your own.

If you wait till you're higher level, you can use polymorph and make your own half-dragons or other hybrids.

slash thread

also, ew

[Drachasor]

If you wait till you're higher level, you can use polymorph and make your own half-dragons or other hybrids.

Pretty sure this wouldn't work. The whole thing might not work even, but given that half-dragons almost undoubtedly come about with some use of polymorph, it would seem it doesn't change the genetic material.

[Drelua]

She was the father.

If you had time travel, why not just go back, put on some Barry White, and make sweet love to yourself? You'd be the ultimate narcissist, but it'd work. You'd also be increasing the risk of deformity due to the identical genes(I may be mistaken here), but not if you use the spell from BoEF(?) to make your seed guaranteed to get the job done, creating a half-celestial. I guess the same thing could work to increase the success rate of the alter self method.

[ericgrau]

Summon monster I lets you name a specific creature. Summon 2 monsters of opposite genders, let them do their business, and wait. Pick nonsentient animals to help you claim credit.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

She was the father.

I still fail to see how the stick comes into play. It just seems unnecessary.


If you had time travel, why not just go back, put on some Barry White, and make sweet love to yourself? You'd be the ultimate narcissist, but it'd work. You'd also be increasing the risk of deformity due to the identical genes(I may be mistaken here), but not if you use the spell from BoEF(?) to make your seed guaranteed to get the job done, creating a half-celestial. I guess the same thing could work to increase the success rate of the alter self method.

This is exactly why it's unnecessary.

[BobVosh]

that means it's within the means of a changeling, right?

Only if changelings can assume ALL biological functions of a form they change into, and then can change into deviations found in the creature. I don't play changelings and AFB at the moment so I don't know.

[sreservoir]

Only if changelings can assume ALL biological functions of a form they change into, and then can change into deviations found in the creature. I don't play changelings and AFB at the moment so I don't know.

they can change sex and reproduce while in any female form.

[Hiro Protagonest]

they can change sex and reproduce while in any female form.

I think changelings get at-will Disguise Self, not Alter Self.

[Morph Bark]

I still fail to see how the stick comes into play. It just seems unnecessary.

She KO'd her mother?

Either way, in that regard I think it'd just be better to go all Wiley Schlub.

Also, people are confusing changelings with succubi here.

[Coidzor]

Genesis + amino acids + Fast Time Trait.

Self-resetting trap of Genesis + immortality for extra fun and creating your own etherworld (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157058)setting.


If you wait till you're higher level, you can use polymorph and make your own half-dragons or other hybrids.

Also, if you use BoEF material, you can get half-fiend or half-celestial from 3rd/4th level spells. Can't remember if they counter and dispel one another or if you can get half-fiend half-celestial wossnames out of the deal.


Only if changelings can assume ALL biological functions of a form they change into, and then can change into deviations found in the creature. I don't play changelings and AFB at the moment so I don't know.

They can turn into Goliaths and then use the Goliath ability to increase in size, so I can certainly see that as open to the possibility of reproductive organ functionality.

[sreservoir]

I think changelings get at-will Disguise Self, not Alter Self.

not really. they get minor shapeshift (su), which functions as disguise self but also gives +10 circumstance disguise and there's some more fluffy stuff in RoE.


They can turn into Goliaths and then use the Goliath ability to increase in size, so I can certainly see that as open to the possibility of reproductive organ functionality.

wait, what, how?

[Airanath]

They can turn into Goliaths and then use the Goliath ability to increase in size, so I can certainly see that as open to the possibility of reproductive organ functionality.

Source? From what I recall from ECS/RoE, changelings only get a Disguise Self at will, allowing them to change appearance to any humanoid race, but not mimic any traits of said races.

I would see no problems in emulating sexual traits, but sexual organ functionality is crossing the line. Changelings do get a gender entry.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Source? From what I recall from ECS/RoE, changelings only get a Disguise Self at will, allowing them to change appearance to any humanoid race, but not mimic any traits of said races.

I would see no problems in emulating sexual traits, but sexual organ functionality is crossing the line. Changelings do get a gender entry.

Wizards get a gender entry (well, most).

[Coidzor]

Source? From what I recall from ECS/RoE, changelings only get a Disguise Self at will, allowing them to change appearance to any humanoid race, but not mimic any traits of said races.

I would see no problems in emulating sexual traits, but sexual organ functionality is crossing the line. Changelings do get a gender entry.

Races of Eberron's Racial Emulation Feat + Races of Stone's Goliath Barbarian racial substitution level for the Mountain Rage ability + Barbarian Levels.

Individual preferences are rather irrelevant to this discussion though, as we're talking about whether it's open to that interpretation at all, which was my point in bringing up this combo.

[Malimar]

I have an open bounty in my game, where a dude named Pumayyaton the Sculptor is looking for people to cast animate objects, permanency, stone to flesh, and awaken construct for him. (He can Craft (sculpture) a beautiful lady statue on his own without magic.)
(Pygmalion is among my favourite Greek myths, mostly because it's one of the tiny, tiny handful in the canon that actually has a happy ending.)
This would be vulnerable to dispelling, but would it otherwise work by RAW? I'm pretty sure it would, though the result wouldn't have organs.

[Yukitsu]

If you had time travel, why not just go back, put on some Barry White, and make sweet love to yourself? You'd be the ultimate narcissist, but it'd work. You'd also be increasing the risk of deformity due to the identical genes(I may be mistaken here), but not if you use the spell from BoEF(?) to make your seed guaranteed to get the job done, creating a half-celestial. I guess the same thing could work to increase the success rate of the alter self method.

That'd make time paradoxes, because having the kid was required to earn time travel.


I still fail to see how the stick comes into play. It just seems unnecessary.

It's a long story.

[Coidzor]

That'd make time paradoxes, because having the kid was required to earn time travel.

But it's so much fun! (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/%E2%80%94All_You_Zombies%E2%80%94)


This would be vulnerable to dispelling, but would it otherwise work by RAW? I'm pretty sure it would, though the result wouldn't have organs.

Well, at least it's arguable that something that can resurrect would work, since it was previously inhabited and a corpse in such a case... though you'd need a lot of gentle repose pre-dispel anyway, since it's a construct inside of a dead body due to the way stone to flesh works.

I'm fairly sure that since using it on a statue makes a corpse rather than a bacon-sculpture, there's room for interpreting organs, like eyes and skin, for instance, as being extant.

Also, ow my brain.

[sreservoir]

Source? From what I recall from ECS/RoE, changelings only get a Disguise Self at will, allowing them to change appearance to any humanoid race, but not mimic any traits of said races.

I would see no problems in emulating sexual traits, but sexual organ functionality is crossing the line. Changelings do get a gender entry.

RoE, page 45.



An important aspect of a changeling’s identity is the issue of gender. Unlike doppelgangers, which are entirely genderless, a changeling does have a default gender that manifests in adolescence, but each changeling can adapt his or her form to be of either gender, hermaphroditic (both genders simultaneously), or entirely genderless. A changeling can alter his or her gender (and reproductive abilities) as part of using the race’s minor shapechange ability.

[Jack_Simth]

There are all kinds of crazy things you can do with epic spell seeds and no one is disputing that, but one of the most intriguing in my opinion is to create new sentient creatures from scratch. So it got me to thinking, is there any way to do that Before epic level, preferably at the lowest level possible for a hard caster.
Cast Simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm), or maybe Beget Bogun (Spell Compendium).

[Slii Arhem]

Cast Simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm), or maybe Beget Bogun (Spell Compendium).

Okay, I draw the line here, because Simulacrum is very clearly an illusory double built on top of a snow golem. Beget Bogun is a decent example though.

[Akisa]

You'd be the ultimate narcissist, but it'd work. You'd also be increasing the risk of deformity due to the identical genes(I may be mistaken here), but not if you use the spell from BoEF(?) to make your seed guaranteed to get the job done, creating a half-celestial.

Why would it increase the risk of deformity? 100% of your genes would transfer and thus any deformity your genes would have are still recessive/or dominant. The only chance for deformity would be from a mutation. The reason inbreeding can have increase risk of deformity because if you have dysfunctional gene it's usually recessive, and if you and your family member has the bad gene there is a chance both sides could contribute the bad gene to off spring.

[dextercorvia]

Why would it increase the risk of deformity? 100% of your genes would transfer and thus any deformity your genes would have are still recessive/or dominant. The only chance for deformity would be from a mutation. The reason inbreeding can have increase risk of deformity because if you have dysfunctional gene it's usually recessive, and if you and your family member has the bad gene there is a chance both sides could contribute the bad gene to off spring.

Because if you mate with yourself, you are guaranteed that any deformity inducing recessive genes are also in your mate, which gives your child a (simplistically calculated) 25% chance of receiving each one of them. It gets more complicated when you begin speaking of entire alleles, and what-not, but the chances are much higher than even brother-sister incests.

[2xMachina]

So... sexual reproduction of 1 is different from asexual reproduction of 1?

[Hiro Protagonest]

1. Get Planar Ally.
2. Summon an angel of opposite gender with the request being "make new life".
3. ????
4. Profit!

[RedWarrior0]

So... sexual reproduction of 1 is different from asexual reproduction of 1?

Correct. Asexual is essentially cloning, in a way. Meiosis essentially ensures that self-baby will not be an exact clone.

[Coidzor]

Because if you mate with yourself, you are guaranteed that any deformity inducing recessive genes are also in your mate, which gives your child a (simplistically calculated) 25% chance of receiving each one of them. It gets more complicated when you begin speaking of entire alleles, and what-not, but the chances are much higher than even brother-sister incests.

Do it enough times in a time loop and you're golden though.

[Maho-Tsukai]

If your not adverse to third party there is a third party class(the name of which I forget) who's main feature is the ability to create new monsters. It dose have a MASSIVE downside, though, and that's the fact the prerequisites for entry demand your a caster yet the class dose not progress caster level but instead has it's own spell progression and class spell list. If you plan on using it I'd suggest hombrewing it to increase CL and strip of it of both it's spell list and spell progression...since it's not actually broken when you do that. It's from a book called "Ultimate Prestige Classes"

[Killer Angel]

With magic? And without involvin sex? at the lowest lev. possible?
OK:
step 1: charme person (fighter)
step 2: Let it fight some oozes.
step 3: "your" fighter slashes the oozes, creating new creatures (not exactly sentients, but anyway...)
step 4: watch as the new babies feeds themselves with the figther: not only you create life, but you provide it with fresh food!

[deuxhero]

RoE, page 45.

Gah! The (terrible) grammar! It burns!

[Claudius Maximus]

Gah! The (terrible) grammar! It burns!

I must say that I don't really see what's so terrible there.

[deuxhero]

An important aspect of a changeling’s identity is the issue of gender. Unlike doppelgangers, which are entirely genderless, a changeling does have a default gender that manifests in adolescence, but each changeling can adapt his or her form to be of either gender, hermaphroditic (both genders simultaneously), or entirely genderless. A changeling can alter his or her gender(and reproductive abilities) as part of using the race’s minor shapechange ability.

It keeps using that word!

It's completely without excuse here, as it is gotten right with the Warforged.

[Drelua]

It keeps using that word!

That's not bad grammar, that's just bad writing.

[deuxhero]

It's both.

[Morph Bark]

It keeps using that word!

It's completely without excuse here, as it is gotten right with the Warforged.

They obviously mean Changelings have one default gender identity and they twist their minds as much as their bodies to take on other gender identities. :smallwink:

[dextercorvia]

It's both.

Also, it is a common colloquialism. I think it is because the usual word is seen as 'naughty' in many western societies.

[Claudius Maximus]

I don't think that's even a grammar issue. Anyway I got so caught up looking at the syntax and what have you that I didn't even notice it.

But you're right that they should use the correct term instead, when it applies (the first two instances might be correct, perhaps).

[Tyndmyr]

I think she's doing more of the work on that one.

Ok, fine. Belt of Gender Changing.

Knock yourself up.