Problems with the Monk [3.PF]

[Tanuki Tales]

I know that this has been done to death and is groan worthy, but this time around a thread talking about the Monk's flaws isn't to debate them or debunk them or any of the other headache causing problems.

I'm making this thread as research for a homebrew project I'm about to embark on (no, not The Paragon in my sig and my Wyrd-blooded may end up on hiatus for those interested parties who are reading in on this) and I need the definitive flaws of the Monk class (3.5 or Pathfinder, though the latter is preferred) plainly and objectively stated in their totality. If someone went through the trouble to explicitly outline the flaws of the Monk in a professional manner, then please do link me.

Thank you in advance.

[Curious]

{Scrubbed}

[Lord_Gareth]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I dunno man, it doesn't even get a familiar.

In all seriousness, non-synergistic abilities is a big one. Very often using one set of your monk features means, by definition, being incapable of using another set (see fast movement vs. Flurry of Blows).

[Eldariel]

1) Full Attack mechanic. Monk is the single biggest loser in this regard, due to Flurry of Blows requiring full attacks for Monk to do damage and Monk's speed being unusable every round you Flurry.

2) Multi-Attribute Dependency. Now, this is reduced outside Core but the inability to get Dex to damage, Wis to hit, Wis to damage, Str to AC, Con to AC (over Dex) or some such by default means Monk needs very high Str, Dex, Con & Wis to have the necessary stats for a frontliner, especially on low levels.

3) Monk Weapon List vs. Game-Mechanical Bias Towards Two-Handing. Two-Handers have reach weapons. Reach is absurdly powerful especially against melee foes due to the way combat rounds work. Monks have no reach weapons in their weapon list, meaning they miss out on a significant number of AoOs and lack the ability to efficiently make it difficult for opponents to take undesired actions with AoOs. Their only two-hander (Quarterstaff) is also a low damage one cutting into their low level damage significantly.

4) Low Rate Of Relevant Ability Gain. Admittedly significantly better in Pathfinder, there's still a number of levels with useless abilities. Also, while many of the abilities are now significantly more useful thanks to Ki Pool (Abundant Step and Etherealness in particular), Quivering Palm is inexplicably still once/day (at least it's not 1/week anymore).

5) Unarmed Strikes Lack Efficient Weapon Enhancements. This is, again fixed by an out-of-core item, the Necklace of Natural Attacks. But in a Coreish environment there's no way to get e.g. Ghost Touch or Good descriptions for your Unarmed Strikes meaning you won't be able to use them against many of the more frightening opponents (outsiders with DR 15/X, gotta whip out an enchanted, material weapon; incorporeals, need that Ghost Touch).

6) Monks have no inherent way to fly nor any access to ranged weapons. Pretty magic item reliant here, though of course magic items exist to make this work. Wouldn't be much of a stretch to give them Air Walk with Ki Pool.

[Tanuki Tales]

1) Full Attack mechanic. Monk is the single biggest loser in this regard, due to Flurry of Blows requiring full attacks for Monk to do damage and Monk's speed being unusable every round you Flurry.

2) Multi-Attribute Dependency. Now, this is reduced outside Core but the inability to get Dex to damage, Wis to hit, Wis to damage, Str to AC, Con to AC (over Dex) or some such by default means Monk needs very high Str, Dex, Con & Wis to have the necessary stats for a frontliner, especially on low levels.

3) Monk Weapon List vs. Game-Mechanical Bias Towards Two-Handing. Two-Handers have reach weapons. Reach is absurdly powerful especially against melee foes due to the way combat rounds work. Monks have no reach weapons in their weapon list, meaning they miss out on a significant number of AoOs and lack the ability to efficiently make it difficult for opponents to take undesired actions with AoOs. Their only two-hander (Quarterstaff) is also a low damage one cutting into their low level damage significantly.

4) Low Rate Of Relevant Ability Gain. Admittedly significantly better in Pathfinder, there's still a number of levels with useless abilities. Also, while many of the abilities are now significantly more useful thanks to Ki Pool (Abundant Step and Etherealness in particular), Quivering Palm is inexplicably still once/day (at least it's not 1/week anymore).

5) Unarmed Strikes Lack Efficient Weapon Enhancements. This is, again fixed by an out-of-core item, the Necklace of Natural Attacks. But in a Coreish environment there's no way to get e.g. Ghost Touch or Good descriptions for your Unarmed Strikes meaning you won't be able to use them against many of the more frightening opponents (outsiders with DR 15/X, gotta whip out an enchanted, material weapon; incorporeals, need that Ghost Touch).

6) Monks have no inherent way to fly nor any access to ranged weapons. Pretty magic item reliant here, though of course magic items exist to make this work. Wouldn't be much of a stretch to give them Air Walk with Ki Pool.

All good and important points. Thanks.

[HunterOfJello]

A general lack of any magical, psionic, or ToB maneuvers. One of the best ways to play a Monk type character is with the Talashatora feat and a ton of levels in Pyschic Warrior. The other method is the popular unarmed swordsage. Both methods take the basic idea of the monk and find ways to add in psionics or ToB maneuvers. If you want to make a version of the monk that both retains the idea of an unarmed, unarmored character who runs around punching people in the face and is still effective in a party, then adding in magic, psinoics, or ToB maneuvers is the quick and efficient way of achieving that. (Heck, the developers of 4e even came to a similar conclusion and made the monk a psinoic character for that edition.)

[Frosty]

Eldariel, I think in Ultimate Combat there is a weapon type called Knuckles that monks can wear and enchant. If Monks wear knuckles, they use their own unarmed damage instead of knuckle damage. Ultimate Combat and Advanced Player's Guide really helped monks out. And, with the Dimension line of feats, Monks can now teleport (via abundant step) and full-attack, and can even flank with themselves!

[Godskook]

Basically, everything Unarmed Swordsage 'fixed' is what was wrong with the Monk, but to expound:

1.MAD to *HELL*, with the added functionality of Wis being entirely negated by the lack of armor. With the Monk, you want all your stats high cause its either the only stat that matters for a particular check, or you're actually required to use two stats to even catch up to classes that normally only need one there. Monks need Str to deal more than a few dice of damage while swordsages enjoy it cause its one of 3 stats that apply to their attacks. Monks need Dex cause they can't wear good armor(any armor, actually, but covered later) while Swordsages use Dex as a primary stat getting to-hit and damage out of it quite easily. Monks want a good con score cause they're melee, can't really get in/out of combat easily, and won't have a strong AC. Swordsags have good armor, 2 stats to AC, and several abilities that allow them easy mobility, making a good con score more luxurious and less requirement. Monks like a good Int since they actually get quite a few good skills, but lack the skill points to capitalize on them with an 8. Swordsages get save-replacement maneuvers that make balanced stats easier to work with, allowing a more moderate Int in addition to their higher base skill points, and are also less reliant on the skills to save them, since many maneuvers can replicate the battle-functionality just fine. Wisdom is barely better on a Monk than it is on the Fighter, basically being a nerf to his AC instead of the boon it looks like due to the loss of armor proficiency. Swordsages get it both ways, having armor and wis to their AC, and then it gets better, allowing you to add your Wis to damage rolls on maneuvers too(yes, this is stat #3 that applies to damage rolls).

2.All its most powerful abilities are lackluster magic items as well. If the best features of your class are niche magic items to a lvl 20 something-better, than you're not really in a good class to begin with. I think the most notable part of the Monk is the fact that he gets a 2d10 weapon at max level. Problem is, that's 20 levels to get better dice for size-stacking when compared with the Greatsword's 2d6, but that's usually something the Sorcadin or Enlightened Fist can do, but typically not the Monk proper.

3.Really bad limits on times/day that you could use various abilities relegating half the class features to only be used in cases of extreme emergency. Compare to the swordsage, who just nova's in the first round or two, helps clean up in round 3, and then is ready to do the whole thing over again within another round, thanks to Adaptive Style.

[Prime32]

Eldariel, I think in Ultimate Combat there is a weapon type called Knuckles that monks can wear and enchant. If Monks wear knuckles, they use their own unarmed damage instead of knuckle damage.Apparently this was a mistake, and the PDFs/SRD will be modified to remove that soon.

[Frosty]

Apparently this was a mistake, and the PDFs/SRD will be modified to remove that soon. :smallconfused: ->:smalleek: ->:smallmad: What the? Source please?

[Starbuck_II]

Eldariel, I think in Ultimate Combat there is a weapon type called Knuckles that monks can wear and enchant. If Monks wear knuckles, they use their own unarmed damage instead of knuckle damage. Ultimate Combat and Advanced Player's Guide really helped monks out. And, with the Dimension line of feats, Monks can now teleport (via abundant step) and full-attack, and can even flank with themselves!

Actually, no UC made Knuckles not use Unarmed Damage (in APG it used to, they nerfed them in UC) but their own damage amount.

So yeah...

[Drachasor]

I know it is done to death, but really look at the Tome of Battle.

The problem with physical classes is that they aren't given many options or flexibility. A proper Monk fix should be aimed at given them a variety of powerful options (not overpowered, mind you, just powerful). Ideally there'd still be significantly different builds using just Monk levels so that one Monk wasn't exactly the same as another. Heck, you don't necessarily NEED good synergy in class abilities if an ability itself is powerful enough. Too much synergy can actually be really bad, since it tends to lead to one-trick ponies who can do the synergistic thing really well, but other things...not so much.

So, I'd focus more on giving them a number of direct damage tools, some control tools (grappling, knocking people over, stunning, etc), some abilities to deal with spells and supernatural abilities (energy damage, continuous effects, saves, etc), and so forth. Then divy things up into different choices. ToB is a good place to start for inspiration.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why not look at some of the good monk fixes out there?

http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=64436
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122

There's a few others banging around, see if any of them suit your needs.

[Tanuki Tales]

Why not look at some of the good monk fixes out there?

http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=64436
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122

There's a few others banging around, see if any of them suit your needs.

Not doing a "Monk fix", just using Monk as the framework for a project. Thanks though.

@Everyone else who gave good points: Thanks!

[Gavinfoxx]

I meant see what the monk fixes CHANGED compared to the original monk, and derive what the issues were from that?

[Curious]

{Scrubbed}

Oh. Apparently this is frowned upon. Alright, I'll actually try to contribute something to the thread.

-Unsynergistic abilities (ie. Flurry only working on a full attack, despite the monks movement bonuses)
-MAD (WIS, DEX, STR, Con)
-Class features that are either useless, or actually harmful (ie. Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Spell Resistance you can't lower)
-Medium BAB. Seriously.
-d8 Hit die. See ^

[Drachasor]

Oh. Apparently this is frowned upon. Alright, I'll actually try to contribute something to the thread.

-Unsynergistic abilities (ie. Flurry only working on a full attack, despite the monks movement bonuses)
-MAD (WIS, DEX, STR, Con)
-Class features that are either useless, or actually harmful (ie. Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Spell Resistance you can't lower)
-Medium BAB. Seriously.
-d8 Hit die. See ^

Regarding synergistic abilities. Take Flurry, this is bad because it really boils down to a very situational ability. It only helps if you can do a full-attack. In a real sense, it is a bad a ability because it's use is too restrictive. It's like a highly specific tool, and the monk doesn't get any other tools to cover situations when Flurry isn't good.

ToB has some synergistic stuff, but it also shines because even if you don't do any synergy, the abilities most often stand on their own -- particularly strikes and counters. The result of the design is a relatively low floor for people that don't optimize well, and a relatively lower ceiling for optimizaters as well...well, within a couple or more standard deviations. That's part of what makes it really nice design. The other part is how it allows a lot of individuality within the classes.

MAD definitely needs to burn in a fire.

[Talentless]

Apparently this was a mistake, and the PDFs/SRD will be modified to remove that soon.

While this is true and annoying, most reasonable DMs will swing for a houserule where knuckles add their damage dice to the Monk's unarmed damage, simply due to the fact that Monks have enough issues as is, and that it is pretty much what brass knuckles do in real life anyways.

[Drachasor]

While this is true and annoying, most reasonable DMs will swing for a houserule where knuckles add their damage dice to the Monk's unarmed damage, simply due to the fact that Monks have enough issues as is, and that it is pretty much what brass knuckles do in real life anyways.

What are you talking about? Knuckles just cushion the blow!