I am over thinking my PC and give my DM ulcers

[WeeohhWeeohh]

Hello everyone! Sorry for the wall of text. I’m new around these parts and wanted some insight on a few things.

It has been a while since I have played D&D and my friend is going to DM (his first time) a new campaign soonish. He offered to include me and I jumped at the chance. We are going to play a 3.5e adventure and I opted to play a rogue to add some flavor. Our guidelines were level 9 with a considerable amount of gold to spend on equipment…and oh by the way, you wake up and have amnesia in the company of several other PCs who also have amnesia!

Through the process of me making my PC, I started to revert back to my WoW days (DON’T SHOOT ME) and was meta gaming WAAAYYY too much. My level 9 (rogue 7 / swordsage 2) had 27ac with a 24ac touch. I thought that by tailoring my PC like this, I was doing my job correctly and was not going to be a slouch who had to be carried throughout the campaign. Well…as I was asking for some clarifications on rules and whatnot and over several conversations he let me know that I was meta gaming way too much. He got the point across that if I used that set up he would have to adjust the adventure to challenge me…and everyone would die within the first hour or two.

That really hit me hard. I thought I was doing a good thing and ended up giving him some crazy grief and making his job harder than it already was seeing as it is his first time as DM. I’ll give you a quick description on my PC and ask kindly of you fine folks how I can tweak my character for better all around DM/party enjoyment. Keep in mind this is a laid-back affair…that I just realized hahaha.

Race: Whisper Gnome (RoS p94)
Level/Class: 9th (rogue 7 / swordsage 2 (ToB p15))

Str: 15 Dex: 22 Con: 13 Int: 18 Wis: 16 Cha: 11 (Rolled for hours!)

Armor: Mithral Chain shirt
Ac: 24 Touch Ac:19 Flat Ac: 24 ((revised))

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Blank
Weapon Focus (rapier) * given from Swordsage Discipline focus


Main hand: Mithral Rapier of Flaming Burst (+2 bonus)
MH Weapon Augment Crystal: Lesser Crystal of Electricity Assault

Off hand: Mithral Rapier of Shocking Burst (+2 bonus)
OH Weapon Augment Crystal: Lesser Crystal of Fire Assault

Magic Equipment:
Mantle of the Predator (MIC p199)
Devastation Gauntlets (MIC p93)
Ring of Jumping (MIC p232)

Skill monkey: Hide/move silently 25, Tumble 20, Jump 21. All other pertinent skills at or above 10.

Skill trick: Acrobatic Backstabber

Sword Sage Stances: Assassin’s stance, Island of Blades
Sword Sage Maneuvers:
Dessert Wind- Distracting Ember
Diamond Mind- Emerald Razor
Shadow Hand- Cloak of Deception, Shadow Garrote, Shadow Jaunt
Tiger Claw- Claw at the Moon, Soaring Raptor Strike

Please help me tone down my guy and give me some guidelines for not ruining other people’s campaign experience because I over think my PC. Thanks much!

[Hiro Protagonest]

It's impossible to metagame during character creation and level up, it's only metagaming when you use knowledge of monster stats and such when playing.

Your character doesn't seem overpowered, a CR 8 dire tiger has +20 on claw attacks and +14 on bite. Lots of spells don't target AC.

When you say "rolled for hours", does that mean you rerolled until you got what you wanted?

[Keld Denar]

Quick and dirty? Drop the Swordsage levels for Rogue levels. You lose the WF, the maneuvers, the Wis to AC, and an extra die of SA. You'll have fewer options, which means you will be less versatile and less powerful. Also, consider downgrading from Whisper Gnome (a really high powered +0 LA race) to vanilla Forest Gnome or a different race.

It sucks, but your DM isn't ready for that level of capability. ToB sets the low end of the optimization bar pretty high simply by being ToB. Its awesome, but a little TOO awesome for some people.

EDIT: Also, did you know that you are duel wielding 1-handed weapons? You seem to lack Oversized TWFing, so all of your attacks will have a -4 to hit.

[WeeohhWeeohh]

When you say "rolled for hours", does that mean you rerolled until you got what you wanted?

Indeed. The DM said we can roll in sets. Once the set is rolled you can keep it or trash it and start another....over and over...for hours and hours


Quick and dirty? Drop the Swordsage levels for Rogue levels. You lose the WF, the maneuvers, the Wis to AC, and an extra die of SA. You'll have fewer options, which means you will be less versatile and less powerful. Also, consider downgrading from Whisper Gnome (a really high powered +0 LA race) to vanilla Forest Gnome or a different race.

It sucks, but your DM isn't ready for that level of capability. ToB sets the low end of the optimization bar pretty high simply by being ToB. Its awesome, but a little TOO awesome for some people.

EDIT: Also, did you know that you are duel wielding 1-handed weapons? You seem to lack Oversized TWFing, so all of your attacks will have a -4 to hit.

Ya, I have come to the realization that I just need to vanilla it out a bit and possibly doing what you said and trashing my SS lvls. Also I do have Oversized TWF =D

[SowZ]

Indeed. The DM said we can roll in sets. Once the set is rolled you can keep it or trash it and start another....over and over...for hours and hours

I played in a game with a DM that did this once and I found it to be incredibly silly. Have you asked him why he does this as opposed to the heroic array or a 32 point buy or somesuch?

27 AC at 9th level is not ridiculous. It is good, but certainly not absurd or gamebreaking.

I think your DM will have some problems DMing a level 9 group as his first ever DMing experience...

[Keld Denar]

My bad. Totally didn't see it there.

Have you considered Daring Outlaw?

I'd go Rogue4/Swash5 as a 9th level character. Take DO at 6th. You end up with 9th level SA, 8/9 BAB (Imp TWF), more HP than a straight rogue but fewer SPs.

Not bad for a meleer.

[WeeohhWeeohh]

I played in a game with a DM that did this once and I found it to be incredibly silly. Have you asked him why he does this as opposed to the heroic array or a 32 point buy or somesuch?

I think I'm going to redo my stats and just roll again 1 last time and take whatever I get.

14,8,16,17,16,9

Well, I guess its time to try an optimizes those new rolls...crap

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Perhaps it is an idea to advice the DM to start at a lower level. If it is his first time, level 9 may be a bit high. It is sort of the point from which things can get out of hand easily. Also, I do not think your character is overpowered. However, the only true measure of that is the power level of the other characters (and what your DM is willing to put up with). Did you sit together and talk it over?

If you really need to tone down, dropping the SS levels, as suggested, works. Also, perhaps starting with a less tweaked range of magic items may help. The score generation method doesn't make sense. If a DM offered that to me, I would just tell him I would take 6 18's, since by pure chance, I would roll that at some point (may take you a while, though :smallwink:)

[137beth]

Reroll 'till you like what you get? Why not just give everyone straight 18s and be done with it:smallconfused:?
Also, when you said metagame, I think you meant optimize/powergame. There's a pretty big difference.
Anyways, what's the rest of the party like? If they are all tier 2s, you should tell the DM that he might want to make the other players switch. If they are tier 5s, then don't go all out, and y'all should be fine.

[SowZ]

Perhaps it is an idea to advice the DM to start at a lower level. If it is his first time, level 9 may be a bit high. It is sort of the point from which things can get out of hand easily. Also, I do not think your character is overpowered. However, the only true measure of that is the power level of the other characters (and what your DM is willing to put up with). Did you sit together and talk it over?

If you really need to tone down, dropping the SS levels, as suggested, works. Also, perhaps starting with a less tweaked range of magic items may help. The score generation method doesn't make sense. If a DM offered that to me, I would just tell him I would take 6 18's, since by pure chance, I would roll that at some point (may take you a while, though :smallwink:)

When the DM told us that the one session I played where that was the case, (we were also starting at level 9... Hmmm...) one player said this. His response was, 'No.' She said, 'Then I will take an 18 and all 17s.' No again. This continued until finally she had an 18, a 14, and the rest 16s to show how silly it was and we played for like an hour and a half. Hehe.

[WeeohhWeeohh]

Reroll 'till you like what you get? Why not just give everyone straight 18s and be done with it:smallconfused:?

HAHAHA, I think he underestimated my patience. I just re-rolled 1 more time and got some reasonable scores.


Also, when you said metagame, I think you meant optimize/powergame. There's a pretty big difference.

Indeed. Powergaming is what I meant.

[Tetrasodium]

My advice?... Talk to your GM & see if he will let everyone play pathfinder stuff instead of 3.5(ditch the 3.5 stiff in the process). PF fixes some of the worst cheese abuses and gives the classes more room to be Personalized in unique & interesting ways benefiting everyone beyond just you (or any other super optimized folks). Look into the PF rogue talent options for an example :)

[Coidzor]

Your DM has an issue with 27 AC on a 9th level character?

Ouch. How bad is the tank's AC?

[Gavinfoxx]

My advice?... Talk to your GM & see if he will let everyone play pathfinder stuff instead of 3.5(ditch the 3.5 stiff in the process). PF fixes some of the worst cheese abuses and gives the classes more room to be Personalized in unique & interesting ways benefiting everyone beyond just you (or any other super optimized folks). Look into the PF rogue talent options for an example :)

Uhhhh, no, not really. At all. Even a little bit. What pathfinder DOES is *NOT* fix balance issues or 'cheese' issues. What it does is give every class hopefully something FUN to do, makes Paladin a more viable class, and it nerfs a few melee tricks that didn't need nerfing at all, and a few low level spellcasting tricks, and it adds some mostly tier 3 classes.

[Tetrasodium]

Uhhhh, no, not really. At all. Even a little bit. What pathfinder DOES is *NOT* fix balance issues or 'cheese' issues. What it does is give every class hopefully something FUN to do, makes Paladin a more viable class, and it nerfs a few melee tricks that didn't need nerfing at all, and a few low level spellcasting tricks, and it adds some mostly tier 3 classes.

I was talking about some of the Gate/summon monster type sillyness. I keep seeing that nerfs some melee stuff thing but haven't gotten a good explanation (I usually played casters in 3.5 as martial types always seemed boring). The PF classes re definitely mostly better & more interesting compared to their 3.5 equivalents though yes. Martial classes also seems to be growing down towards interesting directions though once you start looking through the new stuff in APG & UC though. Even the new caster stuff (witch/summoner/oracle/etc) is pretty darned interesting without as much game breaking potential as wizard, but fun toys (hexes/eidolon/etc) that let them be more active & enjoyable members of the party in exchange for that reduced potential at the extreme end.

[WeeohhWeeohh]

Your DM has an issue with 27 AC on a 9th level character?

Ouch. How bad is the tank's AC?

I think he had trouble with a melee dodge rogue tank. He would have to adjust everything so that I wouldn't one shot mobs and leave my teammates with table scraps.

[Jude_H]

14,8,16,17,16,9

Well, I guess its time to try an optimizes those new rolls...crap
That's... that's 40 point buy.
I take it the "roll until you get straight 18s" method isn't too far off. :smalleek:

[Drachasor]

I think he had trouble with a melee dodge rogue tank. He would have to adjust everything so that I wouldn't one shot mobs and leave my teammates with table scraps.

Just how awful are the other players? It really shouldn't be an issue as best I see.

You're in Tier 3, and that's about it, but people could meet or beat your damage in lower tiers and the same with your defenses.

Honestly, you are about where you should be for your level. If he can't handle that then something is wrong.

[WeeohhWeeohh]

That's... that's 40 point buy.
I take it the "roll until you get straight 18s" method isn't too far off. :smalleek:

Oh lord. Then you roll and give me your first set of numbers.

[SowZ]

Oh lord. Then you roll and give me your first set of numbers.

If that was an honest roll that's what the DM gets for rolling stats. I have rolled that good for a warlock once on my first roll. Plus, if all the other players are rolling whatever they please, you may want to keep those stats to stay on par.

[Keithicus]

Note: I'm not too experienced DMing so take what I say here with a grain of salt.

1. Is it possible for the DM to have the first sessions at lower level? It doesn't have the be 1st level but odds are 3rd or lower is good for a new DM to learn with.

2. If you had to tone yourself down I'd agree to remove the ToB class levels.

3. Alternatively, you could reroll 3d6 just to give yourself lower stats

I don't like the concept of "reroll 4d6b3 until you get what you want". Why bother having the players roll dice? Just give them an array or use a point buy system. If your DM is open to suggestions you might want to suggest what some of the other posters have said (not like I've said anything new yet anyway).

I know from what little experience I have that level 9 is pretty hectic looking. The only reason I could think that he might be able to handle DMing right off the bat like that would be if he's played a large number of campaigns already.

[SowZ]

Note: I'm not too experienced DMing so take what I say here with a grain of salt.

1. Is it possible for the DM to have the first sessions at lower level? It doesn't have the be 1st level but odds are 3rd or lower is good for a new DM to learn with.

2. If you had to tone yourself down I'd agree to remove the ToB class levels.

3. Alternatively, you could reroll 3d6 just to give yourself lower stats

I don't like the concept of "reroll 4d6b3 until you get what you want". Why bother having the players roll dice? Just give them an array or use a point buy system. If your DM is open to suggestions you might want to suggest what some of the other posters have said (not like I've said anything new yet anyway).

I know from what little experience I have that level 9 is pretty hectic looking. The only reason I could think that he might be able to handle DMing right off the bat like that would be if he's played a large number of campaigns already.

I doubt he has, given that 27 AC sounds overpowered for a melee rogue build at level 9 and he had trouble thinking of ways to beat it. Of course he may be experienced and it is possible the rest of the party is just super unoptimized and having a reasonably powerful rogue, (your build is far from cheese,) would be unbalancing. I think it is more likely he is reasonably new to the game, (a year or two with infrequent playing.)

[WeeohhWeeohh]

I want to thank you all for your input! It's been really helpful. The DM has played in a lot of campaigns and is incredibly knowledgeable on everything related to 3.5 so I do not fear we will have a bad experience. That being said, I do think he is a little overwhelmed. Just gonna roll with it and revise my PC. The make up of the group is a bunch of relaxed guys and not power gamers. I have to adjust accordingly.


I doubt he has, given that 27 AC sounds overpowered for a melee rogue build at level 9 and he had trouble thinking of ways to beat it. Of course he may be experienced and it is possible the rest of the party is just super unoptimized and having a reasonably powerful rogue, (your build is far from cheese,) would be unbalancing.

+1

[TwylyghT]

I agree that it doesnt seem like an OP character really, the one issue that might be skewing it in power is that your WBL is well exceeded. Ignoring that two ++5 weapons is a bit much at 9th level, at least as I am used to it, you have at least 113,640 gold tied up in the rapiers alone assuming they have only the required +1 base enhancement, and your *total* WBL at 9th should be around 36,000 gold, less than even one of the rapiers.

[Gavinfoxx]

I keep seeing that nerfs some melee stuff thing but haven't gotten a good explanation (I usually played casters in 3.5 as martial types always seemed boring).

I'll see if I can dredge up the specifics in a bit, but they needlessly got rid of the main bit of power of fighter types: tripping and action denial, and charging with power attack. Non magical Melee does NOT need a nerf in 3.Xe, no, not even then.

[Tetrasodium]

I'll see if I can dredge up the specifics in a bit, but they needlessly got rid of the main bit of power of fighter types: tripping and action denial, and charging with power attack. Non magical Melee does NOT need a nerf in 3.Xe, no, not even then.
I'd love to see it & have a discussion about it :) Trip>trip>trip tends to annoy GM's though & cause encounter design to do things that compensate for it ( at least in my experience) I think that things like lunge & vital strike (to name a couple quick ones) combined with the new class specific changes & alternate archtypes/class features do a nice job of improving the martial classes power though

[Coidzor]

Here's one place where it was looked at. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7607351#post7607351) Amongst other things.

Since it was supposed to be a quick guide to what's different between the two.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'd love to see it & have a discussion about it :)

Here is a SEVERAL page discussion about why they did several conceptually bad things to melee.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2966.0

You should especially pay very very close attention to the replies and the merits of the topics of the rants, rather than perhaps the language they are using or how they present them; they do show some quite valid issues.

Again, this stems from not having 'making the classes equal in power level' as a primary design goal. Unfortunately, this was somewhat advertised as one of their goals...

[Tetrasodium]

Here is a SEVERAL page discussion about why they did several conceptually bad things to melee.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2966.0

You should especially pay very very close attention to the replies and the merits of the topics of the rants, rather than perhaps the language they are using or how they present them; they do show some quite valid issues.

Again, this stems from not having 'making the classes equal in power level' as a primary design goal. Unfortunately, this was somewhat advertised as one of their goals...

I read a few pages into that thread when it started breaking down into who knows their @%#& and who doesn't for two full pages. There are certainly some good points brought up about trip, but the thread was from 2008 (well before the new feats/archtypes in APG/UC were added), and I thing the additions those two books bring more than make up for the loss... But every group I've ever played with hated when people used trip over & over again.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, trippers came about in an attempt to be viable and useful in combat, in the situation where there wasn't actually anything USEFUL for melee guys to do with regards to being able to cause a meaningful change in combat lethality of their enemies. That's WHY they trip; because it is the only real meaningful debuff available to them (other than a one hit death, which is what charging was about, that being the OTHER thing that pathfinder nerfed...).

[Tetrasodium]

Well, trippers came about in an attempt to be viable and useful in combat, in the situation where there wasn't actually anything USEFUL for melee guys to do with regards to being able to cause a meaningful change in combat lethality of their enemies. That's WHY they trip; because it is the only real meaningful debuff available to them (other than a one hit death, which is what charging was about, that being the OTHER thing that pathfinder nerfed...).


blinding/stunned/crippling/etc critical feats are prety nice debuffs for a crit builds, combined with the extra feats(every two levels & classes with optional feat choices at various levels like rogue/raqger), it's not too tough to add them.
Stunning assault is another nice one letting you -5 tohit for a 1 round stun on anything you hit that round
Dazzling Display lets you make everything in like 30ft shaken (-2 to attacks/saves/etc) & UC adds some extra feats to further improve it.
The teamwork feats have some nice things, granted it's tough to get much use out of them unless you take some cavalier to let others use them without having them and such
Stuff like stand still lets you make trip/grapple/etc on AoO's
Saving shield lets adjacent allies add your shield bonus to their AC



Then there is things like APG's new maneuvers.... Dirty trick lets you make a target blinded, dazzled, deafened, entangled, shaken, or sickened for provoking an AoO unless you have the improved dirty trick feat
drag & reposition let you physically move opponents around

[WeeohhWeeohh]

I agree that it doesnt seem like an OP character really, the one issue that might be skewing it in power is that your WBL is well exceeded. Ignoring that two ++5 weapons is a bit much at 9th level, at least as I am used to it, you have at least 113,640 gold tied up in the rapiers alone assuming they have only the required +1 base enhancement, and your *total* WBL at 9th should be around 36,000 gold, less than even one of the rapiers.

Sorry my weapon description was unclear.

Main hand: Mithral Rapier of Flaming Burst (+2 bonus) 8320g
MH Weapon Augment Crystal: Lesser Crystal of Electricity Assault 3000g

Off hand: Mithral Rapier of Shocking Burst (+2 bonus) 8320g
OH Weapon Augment Crystal: Lesser Crystal of Fire Assault 3000g

Will edit my post! My bad.

[Aracor]

The problem is that you have to have a +1 enhancement bonus before you actually start throwing on extra abilities. So both of those should be a total of +3 weapons, which are 18,320 gold, rather than 8320 gold.

[Gavinfoxx]

Rapier and Rapier? Did pathfinder actually let you do that without penalties? Or do you still have to do Rapier and Shortsword or Rapier and Dagger or Rapier and Smallsword That Happens To Have the Stats of A Shortsword?

[Tetrasodium]

Rapier and Rapier? Did pathfinder actually let you do that without penalties? Or do you still have to do Rapier and Shortsword or Rapier and Dagger or Rapier and Smallsword That Happens To Have the Stats of A Shortsword?

I don't remember 100%, but I think that it's a feat that lets you do it

[Keld Denar]

He has Oversized TWF, which reduces the penalties for a one handed off hand down to -2/-2. It's from complete adventurer.

[Gavinfoxx]

He has Oversized TWF, which reduces the penalties for a one handed off hand down to -2/-2. It's from complete adventurer.

Yea I always hated that feat. Not for doing what it did, but for being needed in the first place. Good lord, for D&D style superheroes, fighting with a brace of rapiers should NOT BE THAT HARD, ugh, it needs a ridiculous amount of feat investment to even be viable and not have hideous penalties... rather than feats that, you know, actually dramatically increase damage and stuff... god he has invested THREE FEATS, just set on fire, just to be able to do this...

[Elboxo]

Perhaps it is an idea to advice the DM to start at a lower level. If it is his first time, level 9 may be a bit high. It is sort of the point from which things can get out of hand easily. Also, I do not think your character is overpowered. However, the only true measure of that is the power level of the other characters (and what your DM is willing to put up with). Did you sit together and talk it over?

If you really need to tone down, dropping the SS levels, as suggested, works. Also, perhaps starting with a less tweaked range of magic items may help. The score generation method doesn't make sense. If a DM offered that to me, I would just tell him I would take 6 18's, since by pure chance, I would roll that at some point (may take you a while, though :smallwink:)

Totally agree about the level 9 stuff here. My friend is trying being a DM for the first time and we are starting at level 8, i have a horrible feeling he is overestimating our abilities....... Your DM will most likely try to make sure he isn't making it too easy, so may make it really hard. I'd suggest starting at level 3 or something. Level 9 is about when wizards/druids/clerics can start tearing things up. And spells + First time DM don't go to well together. I'm expecting my game ( which is tomorrow ) to hold a lot of arguments between me and him over how my spells work, ( He's more of a barbarian/minor caster type guy, and hasn't spent the hours of research into spells i have xD ) so it will be interesting. I personally prefer lower level games too, they make it more fun that the team has to really work together, at higher levels like 9 it's mostly people trying to out-shine one another and arguments with the DM about 'x' spell works.

I really do suggest getting it at a lower level if you can

[Keithicus]

Your DM will most likely try to make sure he isn't making it too easy, so may make it really hard

As I (and my players) can attest to... New DMs are very capable of going to that extreme, out of 2 combats that were 'to the death' I had at least one character in the negatives before it was over. In fact one of my characters would have died if he didn't manage to stabilize himself right before hitting -10 :smalleek:

On the flip side, the GM could also easily underestimate the party and end up having the climactic battle be between 4 level 9 PCs and one standard Monster Manual wolf. </exaggeration>

[candycorn]

27 AC at level 9?

Hm.

You seemed to have a pair of 18's and a 16. Let's start:

Dragonborn Dwarf

Con 24, Wis 18, Int 18

Fighter 4 / Monk 1 / Fist of the forest 1 / Deepwarden 2 / Warblade 1

Item: Amulet of Con +4.

Con modifier of +9.

AC: 10 + 9 (con) +9 (con) + 4 (wis) = 32 (also 32 touch). Use a feat to pick up the soulmeld that gives uncanny dodge, and it's 32 FF too. And that's not really trying. With a bit of effort, I'm sure I could get an AC to 60 or so by level 9.

[Drachasor]

Or:
18->22 Dex (+6)
Mithril Chain Shirt +2 (+6)
Amulet of Natural Armor +2
Ring of Protection +2
AC 26

Total Cost: About 21k, leaving 15k left over.

That's almost literally with zero effort and it is only short by 1 point and is class independent as long as you can wear light armor (so the same sort of character as the OP).

It would be easy enough to increase that by 5+ points. We're pretty much talking the bare minimum of a decently equipped 9th level character here.

Oh, and some of those alternate options for a similar character would let us completely drop some of those magical items, allowing more money to be spent elsewhere.

My point is that being one higher in AC from more or less the bare minimum is nothing to be that impressed about.

This gives about a 40% or so chance to be hit by WEAK* melee attackers that are CR 9, and the strong ones have +20 to hit, which is quite easy for them to make.

*"weak" as in low bonuses to hit.

[WeeohhWeeohh]

The problem is that you have to have a +1 enhancement bonus before you actually start throwing on extra abilities. So both of those should be a total of +3 weapons, which are 18,320 gold, rather than 8320 gold.

The DM's ruling was that if the weapon in question was of MW quality, bonuses could be added without the +1 prerequisite. He had to go over magic items and magic item creation at length with me because back in the day when I did play, our group of guys disallowed using really any kind of magic items. It was a little bland but it really focused us on teamwork and less about being shiny snowflakes. The most we ever got was MW stuff and that was a rare thing....and we were always broke ahhahaha. Coming from that environment to this one was quite an adjustment.

[Daftendirekt]

The DM's ruling was that if the weapon in question was of MW quality, bonuses could be added without the +1 prerequisite.

...

ALL magic items have to be masterwork to begin with. So, epic fail on your DM's part.

[WeeohhWeeohh]

...

ALL magic items have to be masterwork to begin with. So, epic fail on your DM's part.

You must be some one of importance around here if you throw vitriol around so freely...but it is the internet so I digress.

His ruling on this particular campaign was that it wasn't necessary for weapons to have the +1 bonus on it to start adding magical enchantments. The prerequisite would be met if we paid for the masterwork quality. His opinion was that +1 prereque was a money sink and a waste. This is, of course, an opinion.

[NineThePuma]

It's a money sink and a waste, but it's a necessary one for "balance" really.

[Coidzor]

It's a money sink and a waste, but it's a necessary one for "balance" really.

Do go on, would you.

[NineThePuma]

The intent is for you to take the tax and get the accuracy/damage boost before you get something cool to keep up with the math system.


And certain things are just flat out not intended to be available and they use WBL as a gate to stop them from being available.

[mootoall]

Who uses weapons to the exclusion of all else, again? It's not the people who are also heavily dependent on their other gear, is it? It's a perfectly reasonable house rule :smallannoyed:

[NineThePuma]

Hey, I can (reasonably) afford a Keen Scythe under this rule at level 4. With a decent strength and maybe a solid grasp of how to Power Attack, the very first time I crit, I'll get smacked for killing something in one blow.

EDIT: Also, I'm not AGAINST the house rule. I'm completely fine with it. I'm just noting that there WAS a reason for the original rule to be put in place.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Hey, I can (reasonably) afford a Keen Scythe under this rule at level 4. With a decent strength and maybe a solid grasp of how to Power Attack, the very first time I crit, I'll get smacked for killing something in one blow.

EDIT: Also, I'm not AGAINST the house rule. I'm completely fine with it. I'm just noting that there WAS a reason for the original rule to be put in place.

Better yet, if I can get a keen falchion instead of a +1 falchion, I will.

[mootoall]

Hey, I can (reasonably) afford a Keen Scythe under this rule at level 4. With a decent strength and maybe a solid grasp of how to Power Attack, the very first time I crit, I'll get smacked for killing something in one blow. At level 4 you could be a pouncing, Power Attacking, Leap Attacking(?) Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 2 killing things in one blow. If you can pull it off with just WBL, that leaves your build options open, which is a good thing.

[NineThePuma]

If I can do it with just WBL, Soulknives are even WORSE.

[Coidzor]

And certain things are just flat out not intended to be available and they use WBL as a gate to stop them from being available.

I'm not following how lowering that ceiling by 2000 gp really has all that much of an effect though. Changing the wealth available at different levels, sure, but not making it so that the +1 can instead be a +1 equivalent bonus.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm not following how lowering that ceiling by 2000 gp really has all that much of an effect though. Changing the wealth available at different levels, sure, but not making it so that the +1 can instead be a +1 equivalent bonus.

A +2 weapon costs 8000, not 4000.

[Coidzor]

A +2 weapon costs 8000, not 4000.

It's 2000 less that you have to pay in order to start getting actual properties on the weapon.

Also, you know, the other part. :smalltongue:

[Hiro Protagonest]

It's 2000 less that you have to pay in order to start getting actual properties on the weapon.

...What? A +1 keen weapon costs 8000. A +1 weapon costs 2000. A keen weapon would cost 2000. It would be 6000 less, not 2000 less.

[Optimator]

An unfortunate situation: a greenhorn DM.

It's been said before, but I just want to chime in and say your character is not overpowered. Your DM may learn what is actually too strong or too weak one day, but it surely won't be soon--and definitely not this campaign. I suggest you grit your teeth and tone down your non-overpowered character, despite it being the only thing you fully control in the (D&D)universe. Hopefully you'll still have fun, despite not playing the character you want.

He should've started at level 5...

[WeeohhWeeohh]

An unfortunate situation: a greenhorn DM.

It's been said before, but I just want to chime in and say your character is not overpowered. Your DM may learn what is actually too strong or too weak one day, but it surely won't be soon--and definitely not this campaign. I suggest you grit your teeth and tone down your non-overpowered character, despite it being the only thing you fully control in the (D&D)universe. Hopefully you'll still have fun, despite not playing the character you want.

He should've started at level 5...

Indeed, indeed. I have full confidence that everyone will have a good time. I also foresee more campaigns in the future, so after he gets some experience under his belt, I'll dust off my opening post' PC.

I'm going with a 4 rogue / 5 swash buckler (Thanks for the suggestion Keld Denar)

Race: Whisper Gnome (still)
Str 13 Dex 22 Con 10 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 11
Feats: TWF, Oversized TWF, Weapon Finesse (bonus), Daring outlaw and Improved Critical (Rapier)

[Coidzor]

...What? A +1 keen weapon costs 8000. A +1 weapon costs 2000. A keen weapon would cost 2000. It would be 6000 less, not 2000 less.

That first 2000 you can actually use to get properties is what I meant anyway. So, that's 2000 less you have to spend in order to get weapon properties, because you no longer have to spend 2000 in order to get the opportunity to get weapon properties and a measly +1 damage, only the 300+weapon cost.

[Gavinfoxx]

Does a non +1 (as in the magic +1) weapon overcome DR/Magic using that houserule?

[mootoall]

If I can do it with just WBL, Soulknives are even WORSE.

Soulknives were bad design in the first place. "I have a weapon" should not be a class feature.

[Xtomjames]

How about instead of reworking your character you just talk to your DM. Your character isn't that over powered (trust me...my current 9th level character is a Divine minion 1, Rogue 5 Swordsage 2 Truenamer 1 AC 37...jump bonus of +31, Tumble of +25, Hide +30 and Move Silently of +32) You're nothing near broken.

Frankly if your DM isn't capable of understanding what is challenging and what isn't and what Metagaming is, you really need to sit down and have a talk. Many of the people on here have already said this. You're not meta-gaming when building your character.