How does I epic?

[Drakevarg]

I just bought Sandstorm today at a used-book store (it was a tossup between that and LoM, but since LoM had two copies in stock I went with the one I was least likely to see when I went back) and in it were three epic-level spells. Cool, I thought, this is the first time I've actually come across any of these. Then I hit a snag.

Apparently epic spells don't have spell levels, but instead something about Spellcraft DCs. After flipping through the book a few times, then looking through my DMG, I found absolutely no explaination of how epic spells work.

So I come to you. What's all this Spellcraft mumbo-jumbo and how do epic spells work in general?

[Devmaar]

On the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm)

[Keld Denar]

Take Epic Spellcasting.

Epic Spells
What Are Epic Spells?
Epic spells are spells developed from the ground up using a list of magical ingredients called seeds. Despite their power, epic spells still follow the basic rules for casting spells, except as specifically noted otherwise. Epic casters can manipulate the seeds of true magic, but knowing the seeds and how to manipulate them does not instantly grant ultimate power. Each epic spell must be laboriously developed before it can be used.

Acquiring Epic Spells
A character with the Epic Spellcasting feat may start acquiring epic spells immediately. Using epic spells is a two-step procedure: development and spellcasting.

Epic Spell Development
Before it can be cast, an epic spell must be developed. The process of development can be a time-consuming and expensive process. It is during development that a caster determines whether a given epic spell lies within his or her abilities or beyond them. The basis of that determination lies in an epic spell’s Spellcraft DC.

The easiest way to develop an epic spell is to use one already given. The description of each of these unique spells gives the amount of gold, time, and experience points required to develop the spell. If a character pays a spell’s development cost, he or she develops (and thus knows) that spell.

For information on developing an epic spell completely from scratch, see Developing Epic Spells.

Epic Spellcasting
Once an epic spell is developed, the caster knows the spell. A developed epic spell becomes an indelible part of the caster and may be prepared without a spellbook (if a wizard is the caster). Characters who cast spells spontaneously, such as sorcerers, can cast a developed epic spell by using any open epic spell slot. Druids, clerics, and similar spellcasters can likewise prepare epic spells using epic spell slots.

A spellcaster can prepare or cast any epic spell he or she knows as many times per day as he or she has available epic spell slots. A spellcaster who can cast epic spells has a number of open epic spell slots per day equal to one-tenth his or her ranks in the Knowledge skill appropriate to the spell and the caster’s class. Knowledge (arcana) is appropriate for arcane casters, and Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature) is appropriate for divine casters. The rules for rest between casting a day’s allotment of epic spells are the same as for rest required to prepare standard spells. If the caster doesn’t use up a day’s allotment of epic spell slots, the unused slots remain available whether or not the spellcaster receives appropriate rest.

Even if the epic spell has been developed and an epic spell slot is available, successfully casting an epic spell isn’t assured. The caster’s Spellcraft skill modifier is vital for casting an epic spell. To cast an epic spell, a spellcaster makes a Spellcraft check against the epic spell’s Spellcraft DC. If the check succeeds, the spell is cast. If the caster fails the check, the epic spell fizzles and the epic spell slot is used for the day.

Because epic spells require Spellcraft checks, a spell is beyond the caster’s ability if the final Spellcraft DC is greater than 20 + the spellcaster’s Spellcraft modifier. Epic spells with DCs higher than 10 + the spellcaster’s Spellcraft modifier are risky; a caster can take 10 when casting an epic spell, but he or she can’t take 20. When routinely casting epic spells, most spellcasters take 10 on their Spellcraft checks.

Epic Spell Levels
Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells.

Metamagic, Items, and Epic Spells
Metamagic feats and other epic feats that manipulate normal spells cannot be used with epic spells.

A character can’t craft a magic item that casts an epic spell, regardless of whether the item is activated with spell completion, a spell trigger, a command word, or is use-activated. Only major artifacts, which are beyond the means of even epic characters to create, can possibly contain magic of this power.

The saving throw against a character’s epic spell has a DC of 20 + the character’s relevant ability score modifier. It’s possible to develop epic spells that have even higher DCs, however, by applying the appropriate factor.

Epic Spell Terms
Epic Spell
Spells that are different from common spells. Epic spells are usually custom-made. Epic spells do not take up normal spell slots, but instead are gained and used under a completely separate progression.

Epic Spell Slots
A character must have an available epic spell slot to prepare or cast an epic spell, just as he or she needs a normal spell slot for a nonepic spell. A character doesn’t gain epic spell slots by virtue of his or her level and class, however. A character gets one epic spell slot for every 10 ranks he or she has in the relevant Knowledge skill.

Factor
When creating an epic spell, a character can modify the basic use of a seed. Each modification is called a factor, and most factors increase the difficulty of casting the spell.

Mitigating Factor
The opposite of a normal factor, a mitigating factor modifies the spell but makes it easier to cast.

Seed
Every custom epic spell created by spellcasters begins with a base effect called a seed. Seeds are the fundamental building blocks of epic spells.

Spellcraft DC
For epic spells, the Spellcraft DC is a measure of how difficult the spell is for a spellcaster to cast. It also measures how powerful an epic spell is.

Epic Spell Formulas And Calculations
The following formulas are important to epic spellcasters.

Epic Spells Per Day
Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), or Knowledge (nature) ranks ÷ 10 (round down).

To Cast an Epic Spell
Spellcraft check (DC = epic spell’s Spellcraft DC).

Level of an Epic Spell
Epic spells are considered 10th level for the purpose of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other determinations.

Saving Throw for an Epic Spell
DC = 20 + key ability modifier.

Dispelling, Epic Spells, and Antimagic Field
A lucky nonepic spellcaster casting greater dispel magic might be able to dispel an epic spell. The game mechanics do not change, and epic spells do not occupy any privileged position allowing them to resist being dispelled other than their presumably high caster level. Likewise, epic spells using the dispel seed can dispel nonepic spells. Such epic spells use the same game mechanic: The check to dispel is 1d20 + a specified number (usually dispeller’s level), and the DC is 11 + the spellcaster’s level.

Antimagic field does not automatically suppress epic spells as it does standard spells. Instead, each time an epic spell is subject to an antimagic field, make a dispel check as a 20th-level caster (1d20 + 20). The epic spell has a DC of 11 + the epic spell’s spellcaster level. If the suppression check is successful, the epic spell is suppressed like any other spell. If the dispel check is unsuccessful, the epic spell functions normally.

Epic Spell Descriptions
Each epic spell description follows the same format used for 0- to 9th-level spells. There are two additional entries for epic spells: Spellcraft DC and To Develop.

Spellcraft DC
This is the DC of the Spellcraft check required to cast the epic spell. When casting an epic spell, the character gains a +5 bonus on his or her Spellcraft check if the base seed of the epic spell is from the character’s arcane school specialty or primary psionic discipline. The character takes a -15 penalty if the epic spell seed is from his or her prohibited arcane school.

To Develop
The first part of this entry shows the resources in gold, time, and experience points a character must expend to develop the spell shown. If the character expends the resources, he or she develops the spell if he or she has access to all the seeds. Spells containing the life or heal seed are typically only available to those with 24 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature). The rest of the development entry details the seeds and factors used to create the epic spell. This information is provided as an example for characters when they attempt to create and develop their own unique epic spells.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. Epic Spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicSpellcasting)
2. Epic Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm)
3. ???
4. Profit.

[Wings of Peace]

Derail: Sandstorm has the Walker in the Wastes which is one of my favorite Prcs for Dread Necromancers.

[n00bsticker]

Epic spellcasting is all DM adjudication.

You can make an epic spell to do anything. Then the DM ad-hocs a spellcraft DC based on the effect using the rules outlined in the SRD and ELH.

Of course, the Epic Spellcasting rules are horrible, especially within the context of the fact that you are an epic level character. As an epic level character, you don't care about what the Spellcraft DC is. You instead use donated spell slots from mindraped Solars and longer casting times within your time-altered demi-plane and cast the spell at no risk.

[Drakevarg]

Of course, the Epic Spellcasting rules are horrible, especially within the context of the fact that you are an epic level character. As an epic level character, you don't care about what the Spellcraft DC is. You instead use donated spell slots from mindraped Solars and longer casting times within your time-altered demi-plane and cast the spell at no risk.

At which point the statless overdiety reaches down and squishes you into oblivion with his infinitely massive glowing finger of doom.

[n00bsticker]

At which point the statless overdiety reaches down and squishes you into oblivion with his infinitely massive glowing finger of doom.

Which still doesn't change the fact that the epic spellcasting rules are horrible.

[Flickerdart]

No, no, it's not even that. Yes, you can be abusive with Epic spells, but look at the alternative - a spell without contributed slots. You pay ridiculous amounts of XP and GP, and might even take absurd amounts of backlash just to mitigate a spell down to a Spellcraft check that's actually possible to make - just to mimic the effects of a regular spell.

[Zaq]

Yeah, epic spellcasting isn't terrible (just) because it can be horrifically abused. It's terrible because it's worse than non-epic casting until you DO abuse it. You would never WANT to cast an epic spell that you couldn't mitigate down into being trivially cheap and easy . . . and once you've started the ritual casting and the spell slot donation and everything, there's absolutely no mechanical reason to stop. Useless until broken, basically.

[tyckspoon]

There is one use of Epic Spellcasting that doesn't have to be broken to be of use- the Armor and Enhancement seeds are pretty efficient, and can be used to give stat buffs/save buffs/AC buffs to your party. This is particularly nice because the magic items you are replacing with these buffs are absurdly expensive for their effects.

[Psyren]

Derail: Sandstorm has the Walker in the Wastes which is one of my favorite Prcs for Dread Necromancers.

How are you getting in? DNs are arcane, not divine.

[iDesu]

How are you getting in? DNs are arcane, not divine.

Alternate Spell Source or Southern Magician should do the trick assuming the Dread Necromancer has access to spells from the sand or thirst domains.

[AmberVael]

No, no, it's not even that. Yes, you can be abusive with Epic spells, but look at the alternative - a spell without contributed slots. You pay ridiculous amounts of XP and GP, and might even take absurd amounts of backlash just to mitigate a spell down to a Spellcraft check that's actually possible to make - just to mimic the effects of a regular spell.

Just as an example of this... lets make Cone of Cold.

We'll start with the Energy Seed, DC 19.
We need to add 5d6 damage, so that's +10 dc.
We need to change the area to a 60ft cone, so that's +4 dc (+2 for cone, +2 to increase area by 50%)
Oh, and we want a 1 action casting time. +20 DC (to reduce from 1 minute to 1 standard action).

Total DC: 54

Can you make that DC at level 21? Yeah, with a bit of work.
Is it worth it? Hell no. Requires full ranks (24 ranks), maybe +10 int, and +10 in miscellaneous bonuses (items, synergy, whatever) an epic feat, lots of gold and xp... to mimic a bad 5th level spell, once per day. And it only gets harder to achieve the more you shoot for.

[Coidzor]

At which point the statless overdiety reaches down and squishes you into oblivion with his infinitely massive glowing finger of doom.

Well, no, you see, Epic is just that borked.

You're better off going with something non-standard, really.

[Drakevarg]

Borkedness aside, I do like the core concept of epic spells (the manipulating spell seeds into particular effects thing). If it was fine-tuned a bit lot, I could see using it as an alternative replacement to normal spellcasting entirely.

[Flickerdart]

Borkedness aside, I do like the core concept of epic spells (the manipulating spell seeds into particular effects thing). If it was fine-tuned a bit lot, I could see using it as an alternative replacement to normal spellcasting entirely.
Our very own Fax Celestis tried that once with a spell seed system for a Sorcerer remake. Turns out that this is impossible to balance.

[Drakevarg]

Our very own Fax Celestis tried that once with a spell seed system for a Sorcerer remake. Turns out that this is impossible to balance.

Impossible, or we've not yet pulled it off? The distinction is relevant, if only slightly. If the former, then why so?

[NineThePuma]

Fax's Sorc was trying to do more than blast: Blasting itself was fairly solid. It's when you tried to get creative that things got screwy.

[satorian]

You might like Pathfinder's Words of Power alternate system.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power

[NineThePuma]

Fixed the above link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power)

Also: Skillchecks make things difficult.

[Drakevarg]

Fixed the above link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power)

Also: Skillchecks make things difficult.

Honestly, it just kinda looks like a shortened spell list with metamagic built in.

Also: Should magic be easy? Make each cast more difficult, and in return make each cast have more impact on the the scenario.

[Flickerdart]

Impossible, or we've not yet pulled it off? The distinction is relevant, if only slightly. If the former, then why so?
It's an NP-complete problem, impossible to solve because of the number of possibilities or something. All the nerds in the IRC were on about it back in the day, and the answer they came up with was that it's not practical to do it that way because of that.

[satorian]

Make each cast more difficult, and in return make each cast have more impact on the the scenario.

You mean like truenaming? That didn't work out so well.

[Zaq]

You mean like truenaming? That didn't work out so well.

You are aware, of course, that any individual utterance is unlikely to have a "greater impact on the scenario" than an equivalent spell.

[Coidzor]

Fax's Sorc was trying to do more than blast: Blasting itself was fairly solid. It's when you tried to get creative that things got screwy.

So it's actually a seeded warmage! :smallamused:

...How did it compare with vanilla warmage?

[Drakevarg]

You mean like truenaming? That didn't work out so well.

Was thinking something more along the lines of a fireball taking 3 rounds and a DC 13 caster level check to cast (not counting Concentration checks and whatnot), but when it does go off it's pretty much guaranteed to end most encounters.

[Lord_Gareth]

Was thinking something more along the lines of a fireball taking 3 rounds and a DC 13 caster level check to cast (not counting Concentration checks and whatnot), but when it does go off it's pretty much guaranteed to end most encounters.

I tried that one. Still doesn't work out well.

[Drakevarg]

I tried that one. Still doesn't work out well.

What goes wrong? Or is it just that it can be easily circumvented, or quickly becomes irrelevant?

[Lord_Gareth]

What goes wrong? Or is it just that it can be easily circumvented, or quickly becomes irrelevant?

It's either useless (easily disrupted, combat ends before it goes off, enemy counter-buffs or dispels) or utterly broken. This is not a good way to balance. Actions in combat should never, ever, take more than one full round.

[Rossebay]

You are aware, of course, that any individual utterance is unlikely to have a "greater impact on the scenario" than an equivalent spell.

Oh snap, expert up in this.


Haha, but really, Epic Spellcasting is sort of opposite of its given name. You'll do more with glitterdust.


I'd like to know more about this Words of Power business. It seems like a worse version of spellcasting.

[Coidzor]

I'd like to know more about this Words of Power business. It seems like a worse version of spellcasting.

That does seem to be the consensus of those who don't think it's cracker jack. Seems to be a love it or hate it thing.

[Rossebay]

That does seem to be the consensus of those who don't think it's cracker jack. Seems to be a love it or hate it thing.

I mean, having that much creativity is great, but only if it matches up to current standards.

[NineThePuma]

It's nice if you like being super creative with your spell choices. It's the kind of thing that you need to be creative for.

But it's power doesn't QUITE match up to the power of normal casting. It's a trade between power and versatility.

I'd say it knocks a caster down a tier but I'm not SUPER familiar. I just skimmed over the rules and how it works.

[Runestar]

Impossible, or we've not yet pulled it off? The distinction is relevant, if only slightly. If the former, then why so?

My guess is that it was too much like truenaming. Set the DCs too low, optimisers break the system. Set the DCs too high, the system is unusable by those who don't optimise. There is just too much variance between groups to properly balance.

[Drakevarg]

My guess is that it was too much like truenaming. Set the DCs too low, optimisers break the system. Set the DCs too high, the system is unusable by those who don't optimise. There is just too much variance between groups to properly balance.

I thought Truenaming was broken because simple things got harder to do as you got higher level. :smallconfused: Maybe my recollection is just completely off.

[Coidzor]

I thought Truenaming was broken because simple things got harder to do as you got higher level. :smallconfused: Maybe my recollection is just completely off.

A bit of A, a bit of B, a bit of illusion of reusability and staying power, a bit of weaksauce effects and restrictions.

[Psyren]

I thought Truenaming was broken because simple things got harder to do as you got higher level. :smallconfused: Maybe my recollection is just completely off.

That's just one reason. The others (the effects are really not that strong even if you optimize enough to overcome the high DCs, and the bloody Law of Sequence!) are just as damning.