Dread Necromancer Gish build (CharOp help needed)

[TheJake]

Hi guys

I wanted to put up a build for review.

I realise this requires some house ruling but I'm pretty sure my DM will approve this. I'm looking to build a Death Knight (Arthas style) gish. Basically the character will have an undead army, debuff using no save spells (to offset the lack of SF, GSF and SP and GSP).

The main house ruling will be to ask that I can get Dread Necromancer to qualify as a divine prestige class for purpose of qualifying for these prestige classes, purely because its thematic. I think the DM will be fine with this.

I've taken Mother Cyst because Necrotic Empowerment on this build is huge and Necrotic Domination and other spells give some thematically appropriate variety to the spell list.

I'd like to throw in some fear stacking but I might I am tight on feats as is. So Aura of Terror (advanced learning) + Fear aura + Fearsome armor + Intimidate will have to do.

Is there anything else I can do to optimise this? I wanted Corpsecrafter/Destructive Retribution but I couldn't get it to fit. Then again I'd also like to throw in Fell Animate maybe but there's too many feats I want (arrgggh!!), but I think below is probably the best build I can come up with. I haven't given much thought to Advanced Learnings but Shivering Touch and Necrotic Skull bomb would be nice I think.

Feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

- J.
------

Death Knight
DN 8/ Prestige Paladin of Tyranny 2/ Bone Knight 10

Human
1:Tomb Tained Soul, Death Devotion
3: Mother Cyst
6: Mounted Combat
9: Divine Might
12: Smiting Spell
15: Arcane Strike
18: Undead Leadership

* BAB +16/ 18th level DN spellcasting (9th level spells, assuming my DM allows the above house ruling)
* 8d6+2d10+10d10HP
* +CHA saves
* 20th lvl Turning

[Coidzor]

You may want to consider what you can do with fear stacking (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0), since you get some abilities involved with that by default. Can't remember offhand exactly how suitable your extant build is for that though.

Kelgore's gravemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82040) is a rather nice advanced learning spell, though I can't remember the source offhand right now, I think Player's Handbook 2 upon doing a bit of digging. Fatigue never gets old, and it's great for either softening up the enemy before a skeletal charge or for putting the hurt on the enemy once your skeletons have them locked down.

It's something your undead will be perfectly fine fighting in if you're using skeletons. And if you take Lord of the Uttercold from Complete Arcane, it's going to have no effect on your non-skeletal undead/individuals with Tomb-Tainted Soul and actually heal your skeletons. Bit of a feat investment though, as it requires energy substitution (cold) as a pre-req.

[TheJake]

You may want to consider what you can do with fear stacking (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0), since you get some abilities involved with that by default. Can't remember offhand exactly how suitable your extant build is for that though.

Kelgore's gravemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82040) is a rather nice advanced learning spell, though I can't remember the source offhand right now, I think Player's Handbook 2 upon doing a bit of digging. Fatigue never gets old, and it's great for either softening up the enemy before a skeletal charge or for putting the hurt on the enemy once your skeletons have them locked down.

It's something your undead will be perfectly fine fighting in if you're using skeletons. And if you take Lord of the Uttercold from Complete Arcane, it's going to have no effect on your non-skeletal undead/individuals with Tomb-Tainted Soul and actually heal your skeletons. Bit of a feat investment though, as it requires energy substitution (cold) as a pre-req.

Thanks for the response.

As an FYI, I've read (and re-read) just about all the Necromancer guides and Dread Necro guides before writing this thread.

I like fear stacking, my only problem is that it is notoriously feat intensive on, quite possible, the most feat strapped character I've ever seen. I would hope that between the right weapons and armor, skill tricks, Intimidate as a class skill, Fear aura and spells that might suffice. Having said that I've never tried fear stacking so I'll happily listen to someone who has (especially on a build using DN). Generally however, I'm loath to invest heavily into fear stacking with feats (maybe a feat or two at max) and find myself against opponents immune to fear because those same mobs typically immune to fear will also be immune to most of his necromancy spells as well. But I'll listen to a good argument. :)

Lord of the Uttercold chain works well with characters with AOE evocations. Unless I look at Arcane Discipline or prestige classes like Fiendblooded (which adds to my spell lists but doesn't quite fit thematically) then it doesn't work effectively.

I tried this build with a Paladin of Tyranny but the problem is he loses a caster level and the ability to cast 9th level spells, even if it does free up a feat (because Mounted Combat is no longer required, although nice thematically).

cheers

- J.

[TheJake]

Hi all

Just bumping this as it isn't getting quite the number of responses I had hoped for.

Thanks

- J.

[NecroRick]

I think an easier approach is to simply go divine the whole way. Either straight cleric (with maybe a dip for skills requirement?) or Eldritch Disciple, aiming at getting the Dead Walk invocation (which is the best way to get really good at this low level necromancy stuff).

It looks like you go and hit Dread Necromancer purely for the increased minion limit, whereas the minion limit actually isn't that important (and there are other ways of achieving it). Arguably also it doesn't stack with your subsequent prestige class levels (e.g. the extra you get is fixed at the bonus amount from level 8).

Swamping the battlefield with 80 1HD skeletons isn't going to win you any favours from the DM ... more like a fireball to the face. You say you want an army, but by the time you can make one, the typical CR you run up against is going to easily obliterate an army. Don't forget it costs you 25gp each time your 1HD undead gets squished. Animate dead costs add up very quickly that way. Going for quality instead of quantity, then the maximum for control isn't so important. Unless you fight _lots_ of hydras...

Other than that, are there any parts of Dread Necromancer that you like? If so, possibly see if you can port them over to a divine framework.

Keep in mind the Karrnathi Skeleton and Zombie from ECS 292. They're 3 hit dice and not mindless, you might be able to justify making them using Animate Dead after taking some levels of Bone Knight (probably not before that though).

[Godskook]

Don't know much about gishing a DN, but I do know a particular set of tricks for minion mancy that'll help:

Step 1: Learn how to make Bloodhulk. They're mindless and more powerful than 90% of what you can normally make with animate dead, and don't require specific bodies outside of size restrictions. This makes them really useful for converting all those random elves you just slaughtered into something useful, rather than having to go hunting for threats that're actually strong enough to resist being killed.

Step 2: Realize that they're mindless, which has both downsides and upsides, but for this trick, it's an upside.

Step 3: Go read the spell command undead. I'll wait.............................................. ..............................Now, did you catch the part where mindless get no save against this spell? What about the part where it doesn't list HD restrictions? Yeah, have fun.

Step 4: Chain spell is a cheap metamagic rod.

Step 5: ?????

Step 6: Profit!

[TheJake]

Thanks for the posts guys.

RE: the choice of DN
I felt DN offered better (thematic) choices that also worked better in melee. Yes, I could go cleric but, I'll be blunt - I hate how WotC push the game so you'd have to be insane not to take a Cleric or Druid.

Since I'm going to be presenting my build to the DM in advance as a concept to approve, I feel confident he will agree with my house rules as they don't skew the balance anymore or less for arcane builds. If he refuses to house rule as I suggest, I'll probably go cleric.

Conceptually, I didn't see the character as devout to any god. He's more an agent of death and if anything, wants to become a god himself. The CHA synnergies and prestige classes were all deliberately chosen support to that end - an overwhelming personality with death flavored melee + spellcasting.

Re: BloodHulk
Not familiar with those. What book do they appear in?

Also, I'm not trying to break the game. I could do that with a Cleric without blinking. Another reason I'm picking a Tier 3 class as the base. I'm just looking to optimise within the constraints provided.

Are there any feat suggestions anyone could suggest or anything wrong with the feats I selected?

Thanks again for the feedback y'all. I am taking it all onboard.

- J.

[candycorn]

Bloodhulks are featured in Monster Manual 4.

And making dread necromancer divine could interact with the class balance, with reference to Divine feats. As a DM, I wouldn't personally allow it, because the next thing I'd see at the table would be a DMM Persist Dread Necromancer.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, there's some very fun things you can do with this build, but we'll need to edit it slightly...

First off, why Bone Knight? It seems to be... sub-par to me. It's mostly about regaining abilities you lose as a fallen paladin... when you never fall as a paladin of tyranny.

Second, you're wanting to pick up Aura of Terror as a spell from Advanced Learning. That either means Dread Necro 12, or it means Dread Necro 7, (some PrC which advances casting 4/Dread Necro 1.

Next, your feats...could use some tweaking. Allow me to present my humble opinion:

Dread Necro7/Dread Witch5/Dread Necro8

1: Southern Magician, Extend Spell
3: Persist Spell
6: DMM: Persist
9: Fell Frighten
12: Arcane Devotion: Pride domain
15: Arcane Thesis (Aura of Terror)
18: Undead Leadership

Specifically, Mounted Combat sucks, Death Devotion's save is too easy, Divine Might eats up turn attempts like popcorn at a double-feature, Smiting Spell is *FAR* worse than what your spells do out of the box, and Smiting Spell isn't worth it for you.

So, why did I do what I did? Simple:

First off, around level 3 or so, you're going to go Necropolitian. Which makes Tomb-Tainted obsolete.

Southern Magician lets your spells be counted as arcane OR divine. Thus DMM: Persistable.

Pride domain nets you Divine Power. Now you have full BAB. Have a nice day.

Pick up Aura of Terror from Advanced Learning. This stacks with the Fear Aura you picked up back at 5th level. Now DMM: Persist and Fell Frighten (using a Slaymate to reduce Metamagic cost, then Arcane Thesis to negate it). Now anything getting within 30' of you is Panicked, ignoring fear immunities, DC has been stacked in your favor, and even if they DO make the save, they're still at least Shaken.

I only wish I could do the Fell Drain + Arcane Thesis + Lord of Uttercold + Kelgore's Grave Mist combo too, automatic negative levels, no save, on spells that heal your minions is a lot of fun. But you're going for Gish, not for Caster, so we're optimizing for both combat and magic.

So basically, you have the BAB of a full BAB class, anything that gets near you soils their pants and tries to run, making them even easier to hit, and you still end up casting 9th level spells.

[TheJake]

Actually, there's some very fun things you can do with this build, but we'll need to edit it slightly...

First off, why Bone Knight? It seems to be... sub-par to me. It's mostly about regaining abilities you lose as a fallen paladin... when you never fall as a paladin of tyranny.

Second, you're wanting to pick up Aura of Terror as a spell from Advanced Learning. That either means Dread Necro 12, or it means Dread Necro 7, (some PrC which advances casting 4/Dread Necro 1.

Next, your feats...could use some tweaking. Allow me to present my humble opinion:

Dread Necro7/Dread Witch5/Dread Necro8

1: Southern Magician, Extend Spell
3: Persist Spell
6: DMM: Persist
9: Fell Frighten
12: Arcane Devotion: Pride domain
15: Arcane Thesis (Aura of Terror)
18: Undead Leadership

Specifically, Mounted Combat sucks, Death Devotion's save is too easy, Divine Might eats up turn attempts like popcorn at a double-feature, Smiting Spell is *FAR* worse than what your spells do out of the box, and Smiting Spell isn't worth it for you.

So, why did I do what I did? Simple:

First off, around level 3 or so, you're going to go Necropolitian. Which makes Tomb-Tainted obsolete.

Southern Magician lets your spells be counted as arcane OR divine. Thus DMM: Persistable.

Pride domain nets you Divine Power. Now you have full BAB. Have a nice day.

Pick up Aura of Terror from Advanced Learning. This stacks with the Fear Aura you picked up back at 5th level. Now DMM: Persist and Fell Frighten (using a Slaymate to reduce Metamagic cost, then Arcane Thesis to negate it). Now anything getting within 30' of you is Panicked, ignoring fear immunities, DC has been stacked in your favor, and even if they DO make the save, they're still at least Shaken.

I only wish I could do the Fell Drain + Arcane Thesis + Lord of Uttercold + Kelgore's Grave Mist combo too, automatic negative levels, no save, on spells that heal your minions is a lot of fun. But you're going for Gish, not for Caster, so we're optimizing for both combat and magic.

So basically, you have the BAB of a full BAB class, anything that gets near you soils their pants and tries to run, making them even easier to hit, and you still end up casting 9th level spells.

Wow.

Umm. That owns.

It totally fits what I'm going for, doesn't compromise anything I was looking at AND it all fits RAW. Thanks very much. :) :) :)

Some thoughts/questions:
1) Is it worth taking a flaw and getting another feat like Dreadful Wrath or Arcane Strike? Both look like they would work wonders with the build.
2) Why does Smiting Spell suck? It uses a spell slot one level higher, can use feats like Metamagic School Focus to entirely offset it (MSF: Necromancy is very strong with a DN) and can be Quickened, etc.
3) Would it not be better to at least reach DN8 before switching to Dread Witch so I can get the inbuilt Corpsecrafter ability?
4) What DN familiar would you recommend? I'm thinking Ghostly Visage but not sure if that would still work if I become Necropolitan.

(BTW, I'm asking for my own edification, not critiquing your build :)

Thanks again.

- J.

[Fouredged Sword]

If you can take a flaw at a later point than character creation (some DM's allow it) get arcane thesis for devine power. You save a turn attempt and get another 2 Bab and more dispell resist from the higher caster level (once your DM realises that he can simply have a foe dispell your all day buffs).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wow.

Umm. That owns.

It totally fits what I'm going for, doesn't compromise anything I was looking at AND it all fits RAW. Thanks very much. :) :) :)

Some thoughts/questions:
1) Is it worth taking a flaw and getting another feat like Dreadful Wrath or Arcane Strike? Both look like they would work wonders with the build. If you pick up a flaw, pick up Fell Drain. Then pick up Keilgore's Grave Mist. Apply former to latter and laugh as opponents get hit with negative levels, no save, no SR.

2) Why does Smiting Spell suck? It uses a spell slot one level higher, can use feats like Metamagic School Focus to entirely offset it (MSF: Necromancy is very strong with a DN) and can be Quickened, etc. You know something... I just had a dirty, dirty idea... it makes me giggle for more than 15 seconds, so I am to assume that I am not allowed to do it. So I'll share it with you so that you can do it instead.

One of the problems with most metamagic reducing feats is the annoying little catch-prhase "This will not reduce the cost of a metamagic feat below +1". It's included in Metamagic School Focus, by the way...

But it isn't found in the entry to Slaymate (Libris Mortis, page 122-123). So since everything you're wanting to Smite with is *going* to be Necromancy... this works. In fact, I'm going to re-write the feat list in a moment.

The problem is, as you have pointed out, this is very feat intensive. Automatic negative levels and making opponents piss themselves just by trying to close is more powerful than channeling spells.


3) Would it not be better to at least reach DN8 before switching to Dread Witch so I can get the inbuilt Corpsecrafter ability? Sure, your inbuilt corpsecrafter ability is nifty-keen-awesomesauce. No denying that. But making opponents lose bowel control just by attempting to close with you is far more powerful for a Gish build.

Dread Necromancer 8 also gets Advanced Learning. Normally, you'd have to spend it on a 4th level spell. Which doesn't really have a whole lot of attractive options.

However, if you go DN7/Dread Witch5/DN1, you end up getting that ability at level 13. Which means you can take Aura of Terror with it. And now you bust fear immunities with your fear aura at level 13. If you were to go Dread Necro 12/Dread Witch4, your combo would not kick in with full immunity-busting power until level 16. So you get to make opponents immune to fear piddle themselves three levels sooner.


4) What DN familiar would you recommend? I'm thinking Ghostly Visage but not sure if that would still work if I become Necropolitan

If we had the feat, Stitched Flesh works wonders. Unfortunately, we're feat starved as it is. Go with Ghostly Visage, you don't need it to possess you to scare people anymore.

So, with the knowledge that Slaymate can reduce metamagic cost adjustment to 0, here's your new feat lineup:

1: Southern Magician, Extend Spell, Fell Drain (flaw)
3: Persist Spell
6: DMM: Persist
9: Fell Frighten
12: Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy)
15: Arcane Devotion (Pride)
18: Undead Leadership

Now you can:

Fell Drain Keilgore's Grave mist for unavoidable negative levels to all opponents in an area.

**If you can pick up two flaws, then get Persist Spell at level 1, DMM persist at 3, and Arcane Devotion comes online at 6, so that you can persist Divine Power when you pick it up at CL8 (character level 9). Otherwise you have to wait until 15 for Arcane Devotion for your aura to kick in on time.

Fell Frighten DMM: Persist Aura of Terror (that breaks immunities) at CL 13.

If you could figure out how to get your aura to do damage (snowcasting/piercing cold/cold snap, for example), you could actually get it to also do negative levels with Fell Drain. So you take negative levels just by closing with me. But that gets very feat intensive.

[TheJake]

If you can take a flaw at a later point than character creation (some DM's allow it) get arcane thesis for devine power. You save a turn attempt and get another 2 Bab and more dispell resist from the higher caster level (once your DM realises that he can simply have a foe dispell your all day buffs).

Good point. Thank God Pride domain has Spell Immunity. Maybe I should just get Craft Contingent Spell, set to when I am the target of Dispel or Greater Dispel? :P

Shneeky-
That feat selection makes sense. I'm still conflicted on the use of Smiting Spell but I suppose that it is hard to give it any value when I can easily touch attack anyone that closes to melee range.

Do you have any recommendations for Flaws?

Also, my only problem with Slaymate is there is no easy way to get one. They cannot be summoned or created, they only appear by DM fiat. I suppose that is a minor inconvenience for a DN with the right skills but still, a problem.

- J.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you can take a flaw at a later point than character creation (some DM's allow it) get arcane thesis for devine power. You save a turn attempt and get another 2 Bab and more dispell resist from the higher caster level (once your DM realises that he can simply have a foe dispell your all day buffs).

Strongly disagree with you. Arcane Thesis for Divine Power is a waste of a feat.

You have far more turn attempts per day than you have feats per build

For example:

Charisma 18 (probably higher, because that's what you are casting off of) gives you 8 turn undead attempts. Plus 4 from a nightstick (we won't be stacking nightsticks, just one)

Slaymate offers a -1 reduction, and Metamagic School Focus gives another -1. Therefore, you're already saving 2 turn attempts off of the normal cost of 7, dropping it down to 5 each for Aura of Terror. Neither apply to Divine Power, so that's at the normal 7.

No problem.

If you want more turn attempts, just pick up Extra Turning for +4 turn attempts rather than +1.

[Fouredged Sword]

A contingent DMM persisted divine power set to go off the round after your divine power gets dispelled would probobly be worth it, but if the foe has a second dispell prepared you are likely in the same boat again. I would simply suggest you avoid needed it except as a nice boost.

Get a good long duration touch attack spell like chilling graps or something to allow you to make attacks as touches, then slap fell drain on it. That is your dispelled divine power backup.

Really though you are heavily buff focused, so look into items that boost CL and resist dispelling. Also things that grant the ability to make a foe reroll a die would be useful for when they get a good roll on a dispell check.

If you don't mind total cheeze, visit the hole and dark chaos shuffle yourself to any feats you need.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A contingent DMM persisted divine power set to go off the round after your divine power gets dispelled would probobly be worth it, but if the foe has a second dispell prepared you are likely in the same boat again. I would simply suggest you avoid needed it except as a nice boost.

Get a good long duration touch attack spell like chilling graps or something to allow you to make attacks as touches, then slap fell drain on it. That is your dispelled divine power backup. Kilgore's Grave Mist already does this, but yes, there's other ways to utilize free application of negative levels on your spells.


Really though you are heavily buff focused, so look into items that boost CL and resist dispelling. Also things that grant the ability to make a foe reroll a die would be useful for when they get a good roll on a dispell check. Spell Immunity is a fun thing. Immunity to Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, and MDj. Done.


If you don't mind total cheeze, visit the hole and dark chaos shuffle yourself to any feats you need.

We're getting bad enough with Fell Drain and Fell Frighten. No need to go there.

[TheJake]

If you don't mind total cheeze, visit the hole and dark chaos shuffle yourself to any feats you need.

Is that the Otyugh Hole from Complete Scoundrel? Which book does Dark Chaos appear in?

- J.

[Fouredged Sword]

Dark Chaos shufle refers to two spells, embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos. The first turns any feat into a feat off a particular list, the other turns any feat on that list into any other feat.

I think they are in BOVD, but I may be wronge. If not there then try the other Evil theamed books.

Basicly you visit the hole, get iron will for free. You shuffle it into a dark chaos feat, and then shuffle it to the feat you want. No go back and visit the hole again to get iron will for free...

Like I said, cheeze. Doing it once may fly with your DM. Returning to the hole will likely get you smaked by Pun-Pun.

[magwaaf]

straight dread necro and corpsecrafter feats, gets so ridiculous

[ShneekeyTheLost]

straight dread necro and corpsecrafter feats, gets so ridiculous

That's for a straight minionmancer, he's looking for more of a Gish.

Granted, it *DOES* get ridiculous. But it's the the type of rediculous he's looking for.

[Grendus]

I thought you couldn't use DMM on arcane spells? Unless I misread the houserule, he's not changing it so the Dread Necromancer is divine, he's simply removing the "divine" requirement from Bone Knight, which is now a moot point.

I'd suggest finding some way to pump your ERL (Effective Rebuking Level). Especially at early levels, you'll be able to pick up some fairly decent undead, especially things like incorporeal undead that can ignore most attacks and evade focused enemies by drifting through things their corporeal opponents can't. Later on, you can use retraining or, if you're the base building type, stock your base with cheap undead and store them in convenient max-hd-rebukeable rooms to reload your rebuke HD cap.



Speaking of cheap undead, if you can find a spare feet, Fell Animate is a great way to make undead for free. Coup de Grace unconscious enemies with Fell Animate metamagicked cantrips and you can get some fairly high HD undead for free.

[Elric VIII]

First off, why Bone Knight? It seems to be... sub-par to me. It's mostly about regaining abilities you lose as a fallen paladin... when you never fall as a paladin of tyranny.

Just to put it out there, Bone Knight is an amazing gish class.

I'm playing one as a Cleric right now, and all of the immunities mean I get to spend the thousands of gp normally allocated to these things on ways to increase my offensive power. It might not be good at fear stacking, like Dread Witch, but it makes you a melee powerhouse. Also, it does give you +4 bonus on intimidate.

A quick price comparison of things that the Bone Knight grants:

Immunity to energy drain and death effects: +4 bonus (Soulfire Armor, BoED)

Immunity to SA and crits: +5 bonus (Heavy Fortification, DMG)

Immune to ability drain: 20K (Bone Ring, MIC) note that this item only prevents up to 3 point/day

Immune to physical ability damage: 40K (Scarab of Invulnerability, MIC) 1/day for 3 rounds.

I'm not sure if these items are the absolute best choices, but they are certainly protections that I want all of my characters to have in mid-high levels.


Also, you get to make a bonecraft weapon that deals +1d6 to living things and you get a special mount. A Valorous Lance used in mounted combat while using Riding Boots for rideby attack is a good way to make up for lost BAB withotu access to divine power. 3x damage on a charge with 1.5xStr is not bad, especially if you get consuptive field going.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I thought you couldn't use DMM on arcane spells? Unless I misread the houserule, he's not changing it so the Dread Necromancer is divine, he's simply removing the "divine" requirement from Bone Knight, which is now a moot point.The feat 'Southern Magician' allows his spells to be considered arcane or divine. Which is how he gets away with DMM with them.


I'd suggest finding some way to pump your ERL (Effective Rebuking Level). Especially at early levels, you'll be able to pick up some fairly decent undead, especially things like incorporeal undead that can ignore most attacks and evade focused enemies by drifting through things their corporeal opponents can't. Later on, you can use retraining or, if you're the base building type, stock your base with cheap undead and store them in convenient max-hd-rebukeable rooms to reload your rebuke HD cap. He won't need to bother pumping them, considering the pathetically low HD of incorporeal undead.


Speaking of cheap undead, if you can find a spare feet, Fell Animate is a great way to make undead for free. Coup de Grace unconscious enemies with Fell Animate metamagicked cantrips and you can get some fairly high HD undead for free.

Yea, but Fell Animate makes zombies, which are decidedly blah. Even higher HD zombies are sub-par.


Just to put it out there, Bone Knight is an amazing gish class.

I'm playing one as a Cleric right now, and all of the immunities mean I get to spend the thousands of gp normally allocated to these things on ways to increase my offensive power. It might not be good at fear stacking, like Dread Witch, but it makes you a melee powerhouse. Also, it does give you +4 bonus on intimidate. You're not using Intimidate. Intimidating costs actions. Ratcheting up your fear aura up to Panic level doesn't.


A quick price comparison of things that the Bone Knight grants:

Immunity to energy drain and death effects: +4 bonus (Soulfire Armor, BoED)

Immunity to SA and crits: +5 bonus (Heavy Fortification, DMG)

Immune to ability drain: 20K (Bone Ring, MIC) note that this item only prevents up to 3 point/day

Immune to physical ability damage: 40K (Scarab of Invulnerability, MIC) 1/day for 3 rounds.

I'm not sure if these items are the absolute best choices, but they are certainly protections that I want all of my characters to have in mid-high levels. By being a Necropolitian, he already has all of these immunities, by virtue of being undead.


Also, you get to make a bonecraft weapon that deals +1d6 to living things and you get a special mount. A Valorous Lance used in mounted combat while using Riding Boots for rideby attack is a good way to make up for lost BAB withotu access to divine power. 3x damage on a charge with 1.5xStr is not bad, especially if you get consuptive field going. +1d6 is pretty pathetic when you're insta-gibbing opponents, either through negative levels or via any number of resources you have available.

Valorous is fun when you're a charger, but this build doesn't charge.

And you don't need a full BAB gish PrC when you've got Persist Divine Power and have effectively BAB = CL anyways.

[TheJake]

I just wanted to bump this as I had a question.

In looking at the build (DN7/Dread Witch5/DN8) I thought the last 7-8 levels of DN seemed a little less than optimal (unless I am planning on taking the lich template sometime into epic).

Is it worth instead going:
DN7/Dread Witch5/DN+1/ 7 of something else?

E.g. Incantatrix?

Visiting the Otyugh Hole and getting Iron Will + his existing metamagic feats would allow him to qualify easily enough and give even more metamagic cheese while detracting nothing from combat ability really.

What about Pale Master 7+ into Epic or Ur-Priest 1/True Necromancer 6+?

Any suggestions?

Also, if we're talking Flaws for this build I'm open to recommendations.

Thanks

- J.

PS: Just how much better is a Cleric at this than a DN? Yes I've read the Fear Handbook too btw...

[TheJake]

With persisted divine might, what races would you recommend? I'm thinking of Orog for the +6 str +2cha (although the +2 LA is urgghh but the DM allows LA buyoff so I'm not fussed much).

Also I'm thinking if I can fit in Mother Cyst I can get access to Necrotic Empowerment. Would that be a worthy investment or are we simply too feat strapped as is?

- J.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I just wanted to bump this as I had a question.

In looking at the build (DN7/Dread Witch5/DN8) I thought the last 7-8 levels of DN seemed a little less than optimal (unless I am planning on taking the lich template sometime into epic).

Is it worth instead going:
DN7/Dread Witch5/DN+1/ 7 of something else?

E.g. Incantatrix?

Visiting the Otyugh Hole and getting Iron Will + his existing metamagic feats would allow him to qualify easily enough and give even more metamagic cheese while detracting nothing from combat ability really.

What about Sacred Exorcist or other prestige classes?

Any suggestions?

Also, if we're talking Flaws for this build I'm open to recommendations.

Thanks

- J.

PS: Just how much better is a Cleric at this than a DN? Yes I've read the Fear Handbook too btw...

Dread Necromancer actually has quite a few good abilities which are difficult to duplicate. For example:

Advanced Learning, at DN 12 and 16, you get new spells. This can be used for Create Dread Warrior for a few solid bodyguards

Enervating Touch. More negative levels to pass out? Yes, please.

Negative Energy Burst. Saves are dependent on class level, magnitude is class level dependent, and you get another use per day. Healing yourself AND your pets while simultaneously hurting opponents? None too shabby.

Scabrous Touch: stat damage? Hey, that's a lot of fun. And since you're a Gish and mixing it up in melee anyways...

Oh, let's not forget your Pets, shall we? Granted, that's more of a sideline for you, but having a couple of solid pets is never a bad thing, and your Undead Mastery ability at level 8 is dependent on your Dread Necromancer class levels. So dipping out actually hurts this.

DR 8 Bludgeoning AND magic is a good way to reduce incoming damage, since very few attacks are BOTH.

If you have a class such as Wizard or Sorcerer, which has no class abilities other than spells, then you have no reason to *NOT* PrC out.

However, Dread Necro gets *something* at every level, and makes it a perfectly viable and elegant progression which won't have your GM throwing books at you.

Besides, Incantatrix only works if you have a bunch of Metamagic Feats to abuse. You've got two, and you've already GOT metamagic reducers down to 0 for them, so there's really no point in going further.

[aazru]

Does Necrotic Focus weapon enchantment from Libris Mortis work with Dread Necro's touch attacks? I'm away from books so can't check the wording. It lets you level drain through your weapon basically. Would be nice for Necrogish if it works. If it does not by RAW ask your GM to let it work ;)

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Doesn't Advanced Learning stack with all spellcasting classes a DN takes? Because it's listed in the spellcasting paragraph it should get advanced like everything else right?

[TheJake]

Doesn't Advanced Learning stack with all spellcasting classes a DN takes? Because it's listed in the spellcasting paragraph it should get advanced like everything else right?

It's listed as a class feature, not Spellcasting progression - so no, sadly. :(

Pretty sure I remember seeing a CustServ ruling on this ages ago too.

- J.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Doesn't Advanced Learning stack with all spellcasting classes a DN takes? Because it's listed in the spellcasting paragraph it should get advanced like everything else right?

Unfortunately not, which means losing a caster level means getting them at levels in which you don't advance spellcasting progression, which is a PITA.

That's actually why the build uses all 5 levels of Dread Witch instead of ditching out after the keystone at 4... it bumps up another level of spells so he can continue Advanced Learning progression properly.