[PF] The Gunslinger's Handbook

[Cieyrin]

(Well, here I am again, almost 7 months later, writing a new handbook for the new Gunslinger. Thankfully, many of my old notes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10256085#post10256085) for the playtest Gunslinger are still relevant, though I'm going to have a couple tweaks here and there. I'm going to take a page from Saph's Summoner's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184592) and spread this out over multiple posts to help with readability. So, without further ado:)

The Gunslinger's Handbook

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs13/f/2007/066/8/5/gunslinger_colored_by_leinilyu.jpg
Gunslinger Colored by leinilyu (http://leinilyu.deviantart.com/art/gunslinger-colored-50391195)
Table of Contents
Table of Contents, Rating System & Useful Links (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11719683&postcount=1)
Class Overview, Grit and Deeds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11719688&postcount=2)
Abilities and Races (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11719697&postcount=3)
Skills, Traits & Feats, Oh My! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11719711&postcount=4)
Your Boomstick and You: Firearms, Black Powder and Accessories (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11719725&postcount=5)
Archetypes, Multiclassing and Builds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11719737&postcount=6)
Last Words, Notes and Everything Else (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11719750&postcount=7)

Rating System
Just like in the Mini-Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10256085#post10256085), the rating system is as follows:
Excellent
Good
Standard, not good or bad
Subpar
Bad

Useful Links
Guns and Black Powder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10256085#post10256085): The Old Playtest Gunslinger Mini-Guide
The Gunslinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger) class on the PF SRD

[Cieyrin]

Class Overview, Grit & Deeds
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m274/ShadowFighter_15/Black13th.jpg

Gunslingers are the newest base class that isn't an alternate class in Ultimate Combat. Since the playtest, the Gunslinger has become its own class with more skills and skill points and more deeds, as well as other tweaks. Along with the new gun system, they are a strong nonmagic damage dealing class that isn't dependent on precision damage and largely ignores the biggest boosts to the defence he targets: AC. They mostly do this damage to a single target at a time, though there are ways around that that'll be explained as we come to them.

Let's take a look at the class make-up to see what we have to play with:

Hit Dice: Gunslingers, while not directly on the front line, will likely be close enough that they'll be thankful for that d10 HD, especially when dealing with other 'slingers. She'll be able to take a hit and keep shooting.
Full BAB, Two Good Saves: Gunslingers have a good foundation for both offence and defence. Full BAB means hitting targets despite Deadly Aim and shooting into melee. Good Fort and Reflex progressions mean they'll have a good chance to resist hostile effects. The only weakness, Will saves, is made up for with a focus on Wisdom as one of their two primary stats.
Skills: Previously built on the Fighter chassis, Gunslingers now have their own skill list which has most of the Fighter skills plus many new additions that fit with their theme, Acrobatics and Perception chief among them. They also have more skill points now (4+Int), so they can afford to get a mix of skills now.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: 'slingers have the Full BAB Martial weapon package, plus firearms. They only have Light Armor on the armor end but they're high Dex, anyways, so we want the least amount of restriction on that front.
Gunsmith: Free firearm from the choices of blunderbuss, musket and pistol, that only you can use properly without it jamming up, and the Gunsmithing feat for free, so you can make new guns, ammo and powder, fix firearms and upgrade your freebie to masterwork. Not a bad deal, especially since Gunsmithing makes the craft work like magic item making in terms of time required. No Craft ranks or checks required, either, though investing in Craft(Alchemy) to make cartridges would do you well.
Grit: Grit is what sets Gunslingers apart from other martial types and gives them the extra oomph to pull tricks and make devastating shots. The best thing about Grit is that, while a limited resource, you can restore it during the day by doing specific actions. These also stack, so you can get multiple grit back, especially with Scatter firearms.
Critical Hit with a Firearm: Hard to do early on, given firearms only crit only on a 20. Also has to be a 'worthy enemy,' meaning at least half your HD and aware of you and can defend itself. No bag of puppies here. In the mid-levels, this upgrades to black via Improved Critical, Critical Focus and Targeting(Torso).
Killing Blow with a Firearm: Given the high damage firearms can put out, this'll probably be where you get most of your grit back from early on till Critical Hit catches up. It's also likely that, with a x4 crit, you'll probably get Killing Blow to activate as well.
Daring Act: While an optional rule, Daring Acts are THE best way to get Grit back by living up to Gunslinger ideology, basically being as bad ass as you can manage to be. This takes some DM adjudication to work but, if you can work with them, you can steadily keep the Grit flowing in so you can pull off more deeds!
Deeds: You have a steady flow of Grit, now you need something to spend 'em on. Deeds are your bread and butter that set you apart from other archer types. There's a mixed bag of good and bad ones, I'll cover them in there own section following this.
Nimble: Free bonus to AC that stacks with everything else? Yes, please! Goes when your Dexterity bonus does and is light armor or lighter only, so situational awareness is key.
Bonus Feats: Every build seems feat starved to one extent or another, so getting some bonus feats never hurt nobody. Has to be a Combat or Grit feat but you were getting those, anyways. Also, if you ever feel like you need more Combat feats, you can now go into Fighter for them, since Gunslinger and Fighter are completely separate classes now, unlike Rogue and Ninja.
Gun Training: You actually have choices now, unlike in the playtest. Still get Dex to damage and reduced misfire increase with your chosen weapon. Still awesome.
True Grit: Performing Deeds for cheaper? Sure, why not! Unlike in the playtest, this works on Deeds that require Grit but don't expend it, so that you always have it up regardless of if you've spent it all or not. Something awesome got better! :smallamused:

Deeds
http://uniquefrequency.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/darktower21.jpg

Deeds are the bread and butter of Gunslingers and, using Grit, is what differentiates them from other martial types. They can be acquired in three ways: Leveling through the Gunslinger class
Getting Grit Feats
Choosing an Archetype
The last method typically replaces other deeds with ones that fit the archetype better. Deeds acquired through methods 1 & 3 will be examined in this section, Grit feats will be covered in the feat section.

Deeds also come in three varieties: Deeds that cost Grit to use
Deeds that require a positive Grit total but don't cost any Grit to use
Deeds that you can use regardless of whether you actually have Grit or not
The third variety doesn't exist naturally and only occurs when True Grit is applied to a Deed that is of the second variety. Unless you're truly paranoid about being able to use a Deed at any time, when the rest of your Deeds aren't available from lack of Grit, for the purposes of this guide the third variety will be ignored as over expending resources to turn first variety into second. It's nice to have, certainly, but the likelihood you'll have a spare Lucky gun, as well as boosts to Wisdom and the ability to crit or kill worthy enemies makes it not something to worry about.

Now, finally, Deeds are broken down by level available (as a Gunslinger can use any Deed of his class level or lower) and will have a rating for Signature Deed/True Grit (listed as Grit Reduction? or GR? for short) on whether it's desirable to use them on. For Archetype Deeds, there'll be a note for what Archetype it belongs to and a section for what Deed it replaces.

1st LevelDeadeye: Useful for that first round of combat when you're not at the right range to Penetrate but not much else. After the first round, you should be at your correct Penetration range, so you can save your Grit for more useful things.
GR?: No. The scaling nature of the Deed makes it not that worthwhile. For serious snipers, the far-reaching sight will take care of your problems without expending any Grit.

Gunslinger's Dodge: Little plus, little minus on this since the Playtest, as you can't apply the AC bonus retroactively any more but you have a choice about how you respond now, either a 5' move that provides +2 AC and an AoO against the triggering ranged attack or drop to prone for +4 AC against the triggering attack. You also are restricted to medium or lighter armor and light load to be able to use it. Not as good as it was but a little AC goes a long way and, with some trickery, can be used for fine maneuvering with the 5' move. You probably want to pick up Mobility if you pursue that, though.
GR?: No. It's nice to have, especially against other Gunslingers, but save the reductions for more key Deeds.

Quick Clear: Your first Deed that doesn't cost Grit, just requires it, it's important in the early levels when you only have your starter gun. Without a firearm, you're basically a cut-rate Fighter, so take care of your guns well. The alternative to expend a point of Grit to repair as a move action is alright but not really worthwhile except in emergencies.
GR?: No. Being second tier in Grit expenditure is good enough.

Gun Tank's Resolve (Gun Tank): Crits don't really happen that often. Even worse, even if you expend Grit, it only has a chance to turn the hit from a crit to normal, which starts at a paltry 25% till it upgrades 9 levels later. Just not worthwhile.
Replaces: Gunslinger's Dodge
GR?: Not just No but Hell NO!

Steady Aim (Musket Master): Move action to increase the range increment by 10'? Doesn't cost Grit to use? In the early levels this is awesome! When you get iterative attacks, it becomes a bit less useful but I'd rather use this over Deadeye any day.
Replaces: Gunslinger's Dodge
GR?: No. Being second tier in Grit expenditure is good enough.

Focused Aim (Mysterious Stranger): Stat to damage before any other Gunslinger is worthwhile, especially since Mysterious Strangers already make heavy use of Charisma. Unlike Firearm Training, Focused Aim isn't specific to a firearm, so you can also freely switch weapons regardless of type. It hurts to lose Quick Clear, but it's a small price to pay and there are alternatives to quickly fixing your gun, though perhaps not as good as Quick Clear.
Replaces: Quick Clear
GR?: Yes. Always getting Cha to damage is definitely worthwhile.

Up Close and Deadly (Pistolero): Like Focused Aim, this is definitely worthwhile, though far more variable and precision damage. It also doesn't multiply on crit or when making a Dead Shot like Focused Aim does. Finally, you have to spend Grit per shot, so it's far less efficient as well. Still, it stacks with other precision damage and will do more damage on average than Focused Aim will. Getting half of the bonus damage on miss is also nice. Finally, it doesn't cost your swift action like Focused Aim does. All in all, it's definitely worthwhile to pursue.
Replaces: Deadeye
GR?: Yes. Removing the Grit cost makes this much more powerful.
3rd LevelGunslinger Initiative: Doesn't cost Grit to use, gives a free passive bonus to initiative and gives a minor perk if you take Quick Draw, which is very thematic, anyways. All in all, neat little perk.
GR?: No. Being second tier in Grit expenditure is good enough.

Pistol Whip: You shouldn't be in melee, you're ranged. However, when it does come up, you don't have to switch weapons and you make it harder for the guy invading your personal space to hit you or follow you if you knock him on his ass before exiting, stage left.
GR?: No. This is one of those Deeds you do as a last resort, not as the focus of a build.

Utility Shot: Two major changes to this Deed since the Playtest: 1) It's gained at level 3, when these can actually matter and 2) they don't cost Grit to use, you just need some in your pool. Still very situational but at least people can use them without feeling like they wasted Grit on parlor tricks.
GR?: No way! They're already of the 2nd tier of Grit Usage, it's wasteful to use True Grit on this!

Fast Musket (Musket Master): This is the reduction you need to get two-handed firearms down to free action reload without shenanigans. Works while you have Grit without costing you any, making this priceless!
Replaces: Utility Shot
GR?: No. Being second tier in Grit expenditure is good enough.
7th LevelDead Shot: Your first non-Archetype offensive Deed, Dead Shot is the kind of thing other ranged types wish they had access to. Making all of your shots as one attack does three things for you: You effectively full attack without having to worry about reloading, since you get all of your attacks off with just one round of ammunition.
Like spread weapons, you only misfire if all your attacks are misfires, so the likelihood that your gun getting blocked up is slim to none.
Your damage is one lump sum instead of spread out over multiple attacks, meaning you can beat DR that much easier.
Basically, Dead Shot is Vital Strike that scales with your BAB, takes a full round as opposed to a standard and has difficulty critting (Confirm roll -5 + (N-1), where N is the number of crit threats you rolled). This Deed improves with Focused Aim, as, unlike every other damage bonus, Focused Aim gets multiplied, making these two Deeds go hand in hand. Definitely the sniper's Deed. Do note that Dead Shot can't be used with firearms in spread mode and only counts attacks from BAB, so Rapid Shot and haste doesn't actually increase your damage. Also unfortunately doesn't play nice with the far-reaching sight, since they both require a full round action to use.
GR?: Yes. Dead Shot can be a major damage spike for any Gunslinger, so getting to use it more often is a plus. Definitely consider for sniper-type Gunslingers.

Startling Shot: This got hit with the nerf bat hard. It's lower level than in the Playtest and doesn't cost Grit to use but now, instead of actually trying to shoot your target, you have to spend your standard action to PURPOSELY miss it and throw it off balance till it gets another turn (make it flat-footed). It's a very teamwork oriented Deed but I think I'd rather blow his head off. I'd rather have the Playtest version. :smallannoyed:
GR?: No. It's second tier for Grit Usage already and besides, why would you want to, anyways? Dead Shot is more worthwhile than this...
Note: Pistoleros replace this with the 1st level Deadeye Deed. They're welcome to it, they're not really missing out on this Deed.

Targeting: This Deed took a bit of a hit with the nerf bat as well, due to it dropping from a Swift action to a Full-Round action. No more Targeting(Torso) for better critting and Grit renewal, though they clarified it so it should stack with Improved Critical now, no questions asked. Other clarifications are also in as well, though the wing clipping got clarified for the worse. Not as pimp as it was, I'll miss the Playtest version. :smallfrown:
GR?: Maybe. You can inflict no save statuses, disarms and trips with this but it doesn't hold a candle to Dead Shot. If the Called Shot system is in, Dead Shot is even better for that. If you like picking your opponents apart, feel free to bring this up to Tier 2 Grit Usage.
11th LevelBleeding Wound: Free action to make 'em bleed. Can get nasty if you keep 'em bleeding, especially the ability damage bleeds.
GR?: Yes. Bleed damage stacks with itself and the no real action cost to activate makes this a fine thing to consider.

Expert Loading: Why would you let your gun explode? That's what Quick Clear is for, so you can fix the damn thing so it doesn't blow up in your face and you don't keep paying Grit to leave it broken. Mysterious Strangers should be the only people actually using this, due to that they lack Quick Clear, so for them it gains a modicum of usefulness.
GR?: Not just No but Hell No!

Lightning Reload: Lightning Reload gained some and lost some since the Playtest. Everybody gets it without having to spend a feat on it and they don't have to Signature Deed to make it go, since you only need Grit to make it work, you don't have to spend it. It's limited to once per round now, though, and is naturally a swift, unless you have Rapid Reload or use an alchemical cartridge, which then makes it a free. This is good for loading a normal bullet so that you don't increase the misfire with a paper cartridge or if you want to load a special, like a Tracer Bullet or a +1 holy dragonbane bullet. Also nice for those times you use a different gun than the one you have Rapid Reload for, like that Dragon Pistol you grabbed for firing Entangling Shots and Dragon's Breaths.
GR?: No, it's already Tier 2 in Grit cost.

Clipping Shot (Mysterious Stranger): Good news, Mysterious Strangers get this deed for free, it doesn't replace any other deed. Bad news, Pistoleros have been doing this since 1st level with Up Close and Deadly, though there's is bonus damage only, so you have at least that plus going for you. They also can reduce the cost of the deed, unlike you. Doesn't work on a Dead Shot, either. Still, it's a way to guarantee that you'll hit and get special effects to go off, like Bleeding Wound or Targeting, so it's still worthwhile.
GR?: N/A. Deed says you can't reduce the cost. Bummer. :smallfrown:

Twin Shot Knockdown (Pistolero): So, you shoot a guy twice and spend a Grit point to make them harder for you to hit? No thanks. I suppose it can be useful if you want to slow somebody down by making them use actions to get back up but not terribly useful. No save, though, so that's a plus.
Other thing of note is, though the deed says it's gained at 11th, it replaces Menacing Shot, which you get at 15th. Leaving it here for now till errata clears this up.
Replaces: Menacing Shot. Guess you get your Christmas present early, huh?
GR?: No. Up Close and Deadly deserves your attention far more than this.
15th LevelEvasive: This probably would have been better broken down and distributed earlier than this level but I'll take what I can get. Still, nice gift basket here.
GR?: No. This is the one deed I'm really tempted to get up to Tier 3 in Grit costs but Tier 2 works just fine.

Menacing Shot: I...have no idea about this one. On the one hand, this duplicates a spell that casters got 8 levels ago. On the other hand, I'm not sure if the term 'as if they were subject to a the fear spell' carries over the fear and mind-affecting tags, since the deed doesn't have that text like those abilities normally do. If it doesn't have those tags, this is a sweet ability, since most fear and mind-affecting abilities have been screwed over already. If it does have the tags, this is merely a mook scarer and you're probably better off just shooting 'em in the face.
GR?: Depends on whether the tags apply or not. If not, then this could be a nice late game fear ability and worthwhile to Signature. Otherwise, forget it.

Slinger's Luck: Free save or skill rerolls? Awesome! The cost can't be reduced to make a pseudo skill monkey, which is unfortunate. :smallannoyed:
GR?: N/A. Deed says it can't be reduced.

Gun Tank's Resilience (Gun Tank): You have the Fort half of Mettle and a bonus on fear/mind-affecting effects. Not nearly as good as Evasive but it's Tier 2 cost-wise, so not that bad.
Replaces: Evasive
GR?: No. Tier 2 is good enough.
19th LevelCheat Death: Pretty steep cost but cheaper than getting a res. A plus is it drains your personal reservoir, not your Lucky weapon's, so you aren't absolutely screwed if you haven't used your gun's Grit yet that day.
GR?: N/A. You can't reduce the cost by the nature of the Deed.

Death's Shot: Dex-based Critical Death effect is still pretty good. Only thing that changed is they made sure you can't get Grit back, even if they die. Works nicely with Targeting(Torso) and Improved Critical.
GR?: Yes. Make any critical a Dex-based Death effect as you want is just adding insult to injury, especially since True Grit is next level. The fact that you don't get Grit back won't matter, since you're not spending Grit to use it.

Stunning Shot: Win some, lose some here. Costs 2 grit now but you don't have to crit to use it. Also requires a Wis-based Fort save now, far less tasty than it was. Still, Signature & True Grit to get Stuns on every shot could be well worthwhile if you start at 20th.
GR?: Yes. Definitely yes. Not as good as it was but still worthwhile.

[Cieyrin]

Abilities and Races
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs25/f/2008/072/9/d/9db62df5bed60aba.jpg
The Caliber by Artgerm (http://artgerm.deviantart.com/gallery/8589004#/d1bi0qy)


Ability Scores
Gunslingers are fairly dual stat dependent, though you could get away with just Dexterity if you're desperate.

Strength: Dump stat, pure and simple. Only things it may affect is your carrying capacity (some guns are heavy, especially if you pursue cannons and mortars) and, if Daring Acts are allowed, some checks may be dependent on it.
Dexterity: The stat Gunslingers live and die by. Affects your accuracy, damage, defense (both AC and Ref saves), skills, initiative and so on. Put your highest stat here to be a successful 'slinger.
Constitution: HP and Fort saves are important to everybody, 'slingers as well. Skimping on this could mean an early death.
Intelligence: You have a nice skill list and 4+ skill points/level, it can pay to have decent score here. Not a major concern but something to consider. If you find yourself with a high score here and your DM is lenient, this can become a damage stat via Focused Shot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/focused-shot-combat).
Wisdom: Your second most important stat after Dexterity, it determines your Grit pool, boosts your weakest save (Will) and is key to Perception, which can make the difference between getting the drop on and ending foes and the reverse happening. Not as important for Mysterious Strangers, but Perception is the most rolled skill in the game, something to keep in mind.
Charisma: You have the skill list and skills to pull off being a Face, though Bards and Rogues are far better at it. For Mysterious Strangers, this takes Wisdom's place, especially with Focused Aim, in the scale of stat importance.


Races
http://forums.wesnoth.org/download/file.php?id=27192
Wesnoth - Dwarf Thunderer by thespaceinvader (http://thespaceinvader.deviantart.com/art/Wesnoth-Dwarf-Thunderer-109867539?q=boost%3Apopular%20battle%20for%20wesno th%20dwarf&qo=2)
Core Races (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races)Dwarves: Naturally having deep reserves of Grit and Hit Points, as well as good defenses against many common attacks, dwarves make resilient gunslingers. Dwarven gunslingers fit well within the Gun Tank Archetype.
Elves: Accurate and stealthy, elves can work well as 'slingers. Their inherent frailty doesn't hurt as much, given good Fort and d10 HD. The Lightbringer trait can give more relevant immunities, as well as negate poor light conditions for potential targets, while the Silent Hunter trait can make sniping an easier proposition. If Focused Aim is viable, their Intelligence bonus can come to bear.
Gnomes: Of the two core short folk, gnomes aren't terribly skilled at gunslinging by default. If they use the Mysterious Stranger Archetype, they become much more viable, fulfilling a similar role to Dwarves. The Eternal Hope trait can help them avoid misfires.
Half-Elves: Versatile as always, Half-Elves can excel as gunslingers regardless of style. The Dual Minded trait can boost up their lowest save and Arcane Training can be useful for getting firearm specific spells for the enterprising 'slinger, especially Mysterious Strangers who can excel at that.
Half-Orcs: The only thing Half-Orcs bring to the table is their choice of ability score boost. Half-Elves and Humans offer much, much more.
Halflings: The most accurate of the core races, halflings make for good 'slingers. As Mysterious Strangers, they become amazing. They have skill bonuses to some of the most important 'slinger skills (Acrobatics and Perception), have good defenses between good stat boosts, size bonuses and Halfling Luck, and good alternate racial traits (Low Blow, Outrider, Swift as Shadows). All in all, they are an excellent race for gunslinging.
Humans: Humans are, as usual, good at anything they do, gunslinging included. Bonus feat, choice of stat boost, extra skill points, all are useful for pursuing their choice of gunslinging style.
Psionics Unleashed Races (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races)Blue: (I know, the irony isn't lost on me that I've rated Blues blue :smalltongue:) Blues are just as accurate as Halflings, though they don't have the same potential via a different archetype. They have superior movement and perception abilities (30' move, Darkvision) compared to Halflings and get Stealth as a bonus class skill with a racial bonus to it to boot, which can make them nice snipers. Their access to psionics can get them nice things as well. Finally, like elves, they can benefit if Focused Shot is on the table.
Dromites: Like insectile halflings, they get better as Mysterious Strangers.
Duergar: Like their hill dwarven cousins, they have deep reserves of hitpoints and Grit and work well as Gun Tanks. Cloud Mind can make them interesting snipers, as well.
Elan: The only offering they really have is the choice of ability boost. Resistance and Resilience can be useful but there are better races to pursue, really, unless you really want a psionic Gunslinger without ability weaknesses.
Half-Giant: Dex penalty doesn't outweigh Wis boost. Only reason to consider is if you want to heft cannons, for which they work alright for.
Maenad: Like Elans, they only have the ability boost choice going for them, the rest doesn't help unless you want to go Titan Mauler Barbarian for cannon slinging.
Ophiduan: Perfect stats, just don't go Mysterious Stranger.
Xeph: Like Medium Halflings, except way faster. Like Halflings, they make excellent Mysterious Strangers.
Bestiary Races (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/monsters-as-pcs)Aasimar: Work well as any type of 'slinger, as they have a boost to their Grit pool regardless of the path you take. The Diplomacy boost is lost on them without a trait or such giving them Diplomacy as a class skill. Plus, you can't get much more mysterious than an Aasimar Mysterious Stranger.
Changeling: They get a Grit boost regardless of Archetype but take a hit to health, which makes 'em not as good as Aasimar. Hag Traits aren't applicable to gunslinging in general, either.
Dhampir: Alucard was totally a Dhampir Mysterious Stranger, at least when fully sealed. Can be a pain to heal, though, so you'll probably have to provide for yourself, especially with that Con penalty.
Drow: There's a reason they favor hand crossbows, they were just waiting for guns to come onto the scene and wanted to be ready to switch. Like many of the Bestiary races, they work better as Mysterious Strangers.
Drow Noble: Congrats, you found the broken racial variant and yes, they sling better than most people. What did you expect?
Duergar: Like their psionic and surface relatives, they got deep reserves of health and Grit and are armored gun nuts. Just, for the love of whatever is holy, don't be a Mysterious Stranger, they are worse at it then their other dwarven brethren.
Fetchling: Not so good as regular 'slingers, decent as Mysterious Strangers. They work well as assassin types, what with their built-in stealth and escape mechanisms.
Gillman: You don't want to play an enslaved character, trust me.
Goblin: Crazy gobbos are the most accurate race out of the gate and they're the only race currently that have a Favored Class Option for Gunslingers that is actually really useful, +1 crit confirm with firearms. You don't have to pursue Critical Focus and you can laugh off the Dead Shot crit confirm penalty. If they had a Wis boost, they'd be a perfect 'slinger race.
Grippli: Perfect stats, plus a climb speed to set up hard to reach sniper points, especially in forests and marshes, where their racial Stealth boost kicks in. Deepwood Sniper, right here.
Hobgoblin: Almost perfect stats without a penalty, naturally stealthy, militaristic to have sniper corps. Fear Hobgoblin Musket Masters.
Ifrit: Good stats for Mysterious Strangers, but that's about it.
Kobold: Play a Goblin, you won't be as crippled.
Merfolk: Good stats for Mysterious Strangers but that 5' move speed makes them all but useless. Even in an aquatic environment, nonmagic ranged combat doesn't work well there without magic intervention, so Pass.
Orc: Orc not understand boomstick. Orc smash with axe instead.
Oread: Nothing redeeming here.
Strix: Flying gunners, anyone? Both Low-Light and Darkvision, skill bonuses to hide and seek in the dark, can fly bloody fast as an extraordinary ability. Nothing not to like here.
Svirfneblin: The equivalent to the Halfling Mysterious Stranger, they have it all where it's needed and then some. Bonus to AC and saves, SR, skill bonuses out the ass, useful spell-likes. About as broken as Drow Nobles, really, and probably is.
Sylph: Good stats but that's about it.
Tengu: Near perfect stats, good skills, proficient with all swords as a a neat side perk. Just...nice...
Tiefling: Opposite side of the coin from aasimar and about as good as gunslingers. Fiendish Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fiendish-heritage) to be born of Asura, Div or Rakshasa stock can get you better stat array, plus the Varient Tiefling Abilities can get you up to +4 Wis or Cha, among other things, so you can truly be infernally gifted at 'slinging.
Undine: Perfect Stats and some other neat perks, Definitely the strongest of elementally descended.

[Cieyrin]

Skills, Traits and Feats, Oh My!
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/241/3/9/the_gunslinger_by_pangea_derlatek-d487ijz.jpg
Gunslinger by Pangea-Derlatek (http://pangea-derlatek.deviantart.com/art/The-Gunslinger-255652271)


Skills
Gunslingers have an expanded skill list since the playtest, picking up 3 new class skills and increasing their skill ranks per level from 2+Int to 4+Int, meaning they can be somewhat skilly. The Mysterious Stranger archetype gives some credence to a shift of focus, which I'll cover in cross-class skills.


Class Skills
Acrobatics: Useful for getting in and out of trouble, this is a bread and butter skill of Gunslingers everywhere, especially since it's Dex-based. If Daring Acts are available, you probably will be using this to help with making those possible, all the more reason to pursue this.
Bluff: A nice skill to have, though you may not necessarily have the Charisma to pull it off, unless you're a Mysterious Stranger, for whom this skill comes naturally and for whom No Name (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/no-name-grit) buffs.
Climb: Not as good as Acrobatics for you, since it's dependent on a stat you may not have a lot invested in, though being able to climb would make sense for a physically fit Gunslinger and can get you to hard to reach perches for shooting your enemies from.
Craft: Not that great, since Gunsmithing takes care of all your gun crafting and maintenance needs, though having a rank in Craft(Alchemy) so you can make your own alchemical cartridges is probably mandatory, unless you really don't care about saving money.
Handle Animal: Not really your thing unless you're a Mysterious Stranger, Outrider Halfling or both, for whom this can be significantly more relevant.
Heal: Between the increased skill points and being dependent on one of your two key abilities, this can be a handy skill for keeping allies alive if your healer isn't in reach or is the one incapacitated. Not really a good skill for Mysterious Strangers, though, unless they really dig Self-Sufficient (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/self-sufficient---final[/url).
Intimidate: Another good skill to have, as the more combat applicable of the social interaction skills, which also combos nicely with Menacing Shot to make everybody run regardless of if they made their save or not. Mysterious Strangers can make better use of this skill than other archetypes and should definitely consider investment.
Knowledges Engineering: Probably the least used Knowledge in the game, unless your DM is big on architecture or you're a Dwarf.
Local: Gunslingers tend to be in towns and other urban areas, so knowing what districts not to walk in after dark and where Leroy One-Eye's favorite watering hole is can come up rather often. Probably the least useful monster knowledge skill, given humanoids don't tend to have many weird abilities, but it's still a monster knowledge skill.
Perception: Most rolled skill in the game and based off one of your good stats, this skill can mean the difference between surviving and TPK. Even Mysterious Strangers should invest in this skill, as what good is being mysterious if you get shot in the back?
Profession: A RP skill, not something you need but something to flesh your character out.
Ride: Really depends on where your campaign takes place on how useful this actually is, though Outrider Halflings, Blues and Goblins are all excellent at it.
Sleight of Hand: One-handed firearms are easy to hide, so keeping a hold-out pistol hidden on you as a backup isn't a bad idea, unless you're a Musket Master. Plus, the ability to make off with keys and other small objects can make you generally useful to have around when things don't need to be shot. Secret Stash Deed (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/secret-stash-deed-grit) requires it, if you want to make sure you have the ammo you need at that critical moment.
Survival: A fairly versatile skill, especially since you don't need a feat in PF to track, you can be the party woodsman if there isn't a Druid or Ranger handy. Not really the Mysterious Stranger's thing, unless, like with Heal, that being Self-Sufficient (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/self-sufficient---final) is really important to them.
Swim: Either will never come up or will show up frequently. Having a rank in it and letting the class bonus carry you is probably sufficient to not be screwed over when the wet stuff shows up.


Cross-class Skills to Consider
Diplomacy: The King of social interaction skills, its the only one of the triumvirate that you're missing. Mysterious Strangers could make some nice use of this skill. Let your mystery make you friends in places high and low. :smalltongue:
Disguise: Only here for completeness' sake, since it's buffed by No Name (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/no-name-grit). If you're a Mysterious Stranger with No Name, you can make a decent go with it, though some investment in Rogue would probably benefit you for your trouble.
Sense Motive: If you strive to be a face (especially if you're a Mysterious Stranger), it may do you well if you can recognize when someone is trying to manipulate you.
Stealth: If you want to go all snipery or if you just want to engage at your pistol's rather short range increment, being able to sneak can serve you well. Since most Gunslingers are high Dex and light armor types (Gun Tanks excepted), it's certainly a skill you can excel at.
Use Magic Device: Not something to consider for most Gunslingers, Mysterious Strangers can make some excellent use of this skill, even if its only to fix their guns when they misfire with a scroll of mending, since they can't Quick Clear like most Gunslingers. There are a number of useful spells introduced in UC that can also be of use (Abundant Ammunition, Fabricate Bullets, Longshot, Named Bullet, Reloading Hands, Ricochet Shot, Stabilize Powder, Unerring Weapon, etc.) to an enterprising Mysterious Stranger who takes the time to learn a few arcane words and has some luck with getting things to work for them.


Traits
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/255/0/9/09a058ebd20046e65959a0bbe0c6b80a-d49omwb.jpg

"Reload" Gunslinger by infraberry (http://infraberry.deviantart.com/art/quot-Reload-quot-Gunslinger-258130667)


Combat Traits
Anatomist: Nice for helping with Grit regeneration and making sure crits land, especially via Dead Shot.
Armor Expert: You wear light armor, which has little to no ACP, so you're not gaining much of a difference. For Gun Tanks, this can help make sure you stay mobile.
Bullied, Dirty Fighter, Fencer: They're specific to weapon types or combat situations you aren't focused on. Skip.
Courageous: Helps with your weakest save, though specifically to fear effects. Keeping you in the fight and not running and dropping your guns is generally helpful for everyone to survive.
Deft Dodger: It's your best save with one of your key stats, you probably don't need this to boost it further.
Killer: Most firearms have a x4 crit modifier and this helps ensure that crits tend to kill your targets, so you get both a point of Grit for confirming a crit and killing someone, provided that someone you're critting on is a worthy foe (i.e. is not helpless and aware of you, has at least half your HD).
Reactionary: Acting first generally means that you can shoot flat-footed targets, generally meaning you're hitting against AC 10, since the target is denied armor, natural armor, shield, Dexterity and dodge bonuses to AC.
Resilient: Your other good save but not nearly as high as Reflex, so worthwhile to boost if you don't spend your traits on other things.

Faith Traits
Birthmark: You don't care about the Divine Focus part (unless you go Holy Gun Paladin or Black Powder Inquisitor), but the bonus vs. charm and compulsion can help keep you safe from turning on allies against your will.
Caretaker: You already have this as a class skill, you probably don't need the +1 to the skill.
Child of the Temple, Devotee of the Green, Scholar of the Great Beyond: You don't really have the skill ranks or need to pick this up.
Ease of Faith: It gets you the last of the social triumvirate, so something that's rather worthwhile, especially as a Mysterious Stranger.
History of Heresy: Useful if you expect lots of hostile divine casters, not so much if they never show up. Really depends on your campaign how useful this turns out to be.
Indomitable Faith: Boosts your worst save, definitely worthwhile to shore up your defenses.
Sacred Conduit: Requires a feature you don't generally have (unless you multiclass Holy Gun Paladin).
Sacred Touch: Always nice, since you don't have to make a skill check to stabilize, though becomes useless by the midlevels if you invest in Heal.

Magic Traits
Classically Schooled: Not really a skill you have the ranks or need for, though being able to notice if somebody cast Damp Powder on your gun so you can clean it before it's fouled can be rather useful.
Dangerously Curious: Not useful for most 'slingers, Mysterious Strangers can put this to amazing use.
Focused Mind, Gifted Adept, Hedge Magician, Magical Knack, Magical Lineage: Not useful unless you multiclass into a class with spellcasting.
Magical Talent: Not terribly useful, though Mysterious Strangers can make use of this to pick up Mending to fix your gun when it jams.
Mathematical Prodigy: You don't have the skill ranks or the need to pick this up, unless you really want that +1 to Knowledge(Engineering).
Skeptic: Useful if you expect lots of hostile illusionists, not so much if they never show up. Really depends on your campaign how useful this turns out to be.

Social Traits
Adopted: Depending on the Race Trait you pick, this can be rather useful for picking up useful features.
Bully, Child of the Streets, Fast-Talker, Poverty-Stricken: You already have it as a class skill, you probably don't need the +1.
Canter: That's unusually specific for a trait, which isn't nearly as helpful to you, given you don't have Sense Motive as a class skill, which you can't pick up via Suspicious, given you can only have one Social trait.
Charming: Somewhat specific, though you can get the skill bonus to two skills, the other of which you can pick up via Ease of Faith. The save DC increase isn't useful to you without multiclassing.
Natural-Born Leader: More of a minionmancer thing, unless you pick up Leadership, for whom it's pretty good.
Rich Parents: That's enough to get you a new pistol. Definitely something to consider.
Suspicious: The counter to the social triumvirate, which can help you make a true face, especially if you're a Mysterious Stranger.

Race Traits
Dwarf Traits
Goldsniffer: Rather specific boost to certain Perception checks but you may find it useful, since Dwarves are rather perceptive as-is, thanks to their boosted Wisdom.
Tunnel Fighter: Damn useful if the campaign is often underground, useless if you're never there. Really depends on your campaign how useful this turns out to be.
Elf Traits
Forlorn: As useful as Resilient and as worthwhile to consider.
Warrior of Old: As useful as Reactionary and as worthwhile to consider.
Gnome Traits
Animal Friend: You already have Handle Animal and Indomitable Faith isn't as restricted. Pass.
Rapscallion: You don't have Escape Artist as a skill and you can get better Initiative traits than this.
Half-Elf Traits
Elven Reflexes: As useful as Reactionary and as worthwhile to consider.
Failed Apprentice: Useful if you expect lots of hostile arcanists, not so much if they never show up. Really depends on your campaign how useful this turns out to be.
Half-Orc Traits
Brute, Outcast: You already have it as a class skill, you probably don't need the +1.
Halfling Traits
Freedom Fighter: Rather open-ended bonus if you can setup the conditions often, though useless if the conditions never come up. Really depends on your campaign how useful this turns out to be.
Well-Informed: Nice alternative to Ease of Faith to pick up Diplomacy as a class skill.
Human Traits
Scholar of Ruins: You don't really have the skill ranks or need to pick this up.
World Traveler: Nice alternative to Ease of Faith or Suspicious.

Regional Traits
Desert Child: Nice if the campaign is often in hot areas, not so useful if you're never there, though the bonus vs fire effects will most likely be relevant regardless. Really depends on your campaign how useful this turns out to be.
Highlander: Useful to most Gunslingers (not Gun Tanks), especially in hilly areas.
Log Roller: Tripping is one of the worst combat maneuvers to be affected by, so being more resistant isn't a bad thing. The boost to Acrobatics is also welcome (unless you're a Gun Tank).
Militia Veteran: You already have these as class skills, you probably don't need the +1.
River Rat: You already have Swim as a class skill and you aren't focused on daggers.
Savana Child: You already have most of these as class skills, you probably don't need the +1 and you don't have the need or skill ranks to spare for Knowledge(Nature).
Vagabond Child: You don't really have the skill ranks or need to pick this up.

Religion Traits
Asmodean Demon Hunter: You don't have Knowledge(Planes) and Fortified Drinker provides the same bonus with less restrictions.
Calistrian Courtesan: Nice alternative to Ease of Faith or Suspicious.
Child of Nature: You already have Survival as a class skill and you don't have the skill ranks or need for Knowledge(Nature).
Divine Warrior: Not useful without multiclassing.
Ear for Music: You don't have Perform and the Knowledge(Local) bonus is very specific.
Eyes and Ears of the City: You already have this as class skill, you probably don't need the +1.
Flame of the Dawnflower: Focused on a weapon you don't really focus on.
Fortified Drinker: Mind-affecting is a fairly broad category of Will saves, so if you can drink up, it can stay relevant.
Guardian of the Forge: You already have one and you don't really need the other.
Magic is Life: You need outside help or a Dangerously Curious Mysterious Stranger but it can be damn useful for living through encounters.
Patient Optimist: Nice if you can gain Diplomacy as a class skill, not useful if you don't.
Starchild: Kinda specific but can be nice if you're the woodsmen of the party.
Undead Slayer: Nice if you often fight undead, not so useful if you're never fight them. Really depends on your campaign how useful this turns out to be.
Veteran of Battle: Nice alternative to Reactionary.
Wisdom of the Flesh: Nice for picking up Climb or Swim on a stat that you care about.


Feats
http://th03.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2011/256/2/e/gun_slinger_04_by_nealbombad-d49sg6w.jpg

Gun Slinger 04 by NealBomBad (http://nealbombad.deviantart.com/art/Gun-Slinger-04-258308600)

Core Rulebook
General Feats
Acrobatic, Deft hands, Magical Aptitude: Either you don't have either of the skills buffed or you only have one of the two, for which Skill Focus would be better. Not a worthwhile investment.
Alertness, Animal Affinity, Athletic, Deceitful, Persuasive, Self-Sufficient, Stealthy: You have the makings for a minor skill monkey, especially as a Mysterious Stranger, so the right investment can make you useful when things don't need extra ventilation holes.
Alignment Channel, Augment Casting, Command Undead, Elemental Channel, Eschew Materials, Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Channel, Improved Counterspell, Improved Familiar, Natural Spell, Selective Channeling, Spell Focus, Spell Mastery, Spell Penetration, Turn Undead: Depends on features you don't have without multiclassing.
Armor Proficiency, Light, Medium, Heavy, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Shield Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency: You either have them virtually already or can gain them through multiclassing or being a Gun Tank.
Endurance: Very campaign dependent on whether this'll come up, the sleeping in armor bit is only relevant to Gun Tanks and there isn't exactly a good thing this is a prereq for.
Diehard: Not a fan of spending resources on things that shouldn't happen if you invest it into other things that should reduce this occurrence happening. Not exactly a prereq for something particularly good, either.
Extra Channel, Extra Ki, Extra Lay on Hands, Extra Mercy, Extra Performance, Extra Rage: Get extra uses of abilities you don't have. Yippy. Skippy.
Fleet: Getting within Penetration Range is actually pretty important for Gunslingers, so having more movement makes that easier. Not generally useful for Gun Tanks, since their heavier armor invalidates it.
Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes: Saves keep you alive, so if you have nothing better to spend on, these aren't a bad thing to take, especially for you current weakest save.
Improved Versions: The rerolling of a save can be the difference between surviving and TPK, so a worthwhile consideration.
Leadership: We all know why this is good, right? Especially on Mysterious Strangers.
Master Craftsman: Casters spend a feat less and get the Item Creation feats before you will but, if you really want to be self-sufficient for making your own magic payloads, this may be worthwhile.
Nimble Moves: Like Fleet, helps you get into Penetration range or away from baddies, especially in that you can 5 foot into or while in difficult terrain with this.
Acrobatic Steps: More Nimble Moves means more options.
Run: I'd leave it to the horses and monks, honestly.
Skill Focus: You're a mini-Skill Monkey, the right investment can go a long way, like on Perception and Use Magic Device.
Toughness: If you have nothing better to spend it on, more hit points never hurts, especially since it scales.
Combat Feats
Agile Maneuvers: Probably not worthwhile, with Targeting bypassing CMD entirely, though if you have some fixation with Pistol Whip, it may be right up your alley.
Arcane Armor Training, Arcane Armor Mastery, Arcane Strike, Channel Smite, Disruptive, Spellbreaker: Requires features you don't have.
Blind-Fight: Other than as a prereq for Ricochet Shot Deed, it's pretty much a defensive feat for you.
Catch Off-Guard: Unless you do a lot of bar crawling (with adventurers, you never know :smallwink:), probably not worthwhile.
Combat Expertise chain: It's melee-oriented and you can duplicate some of it with deeds. Pass.
Combat Reflexes: Pretty useless, unless you have Snap Shot, for whom this becomes damn useful.
Stand Still: Like Combat Reflexes, though the fact it only works against adjacent creatures, not creatures in your reach, makes it not as nice as it could be if you had Improved Snap Shot.
Critical Focus: Makes Grit Regeneration easier and you help confirm those x4 crits. What's not to like?
Bleeding Critical: You can get this at the same time as Bleeding Wound, which is far more flexible in its usage.
Blinding Critical: Blinding somebody will definitely ruin their day and generally render them fairly useless.
Critical Mastery: You aren't a Fighter, so you can't take it.
Deafening Critical: Particularly fits with firearms but is only really useful against bards and casters, so if fight a lot of them, go for it.
Sickening Critical: No save sicken, what's not to like?
Staggering Critical: Action Denial is never a bad thing to inflict on somebody.
Stunning Critical: If you crit, they're screwed one way or another. Stunning Shot isn't for 2 more levels but this probably lasts longer and has a better save.
Tiring Critical: No save action reduction of actions. Doesn't stack, though.
Exhausting Critical: Everything Tiring Critical does but better.
Deadly Aim: You need this. The problem with Penetration making firearms touch attack is cleared up and this fits in nicely with your bonus Gunslinger feat at 4th.
Defensive Combat Training: Only helps if you multiclass and even then only with Poor BAB classes.
Dodge: Stacks with Nimble and prereq for a couple Deeds and other useful feats.
Mobility: Necessary evil if you want Leaping Shot Deed or Shot on the Run. Useful if you need to get out of reach to reload, too.
Spring Attack: You want one of the other two capstone feats, not this one.
Wind Stance: Nice against other Gunslingers, Alchemists and other ranged attackers, especially if you have free action reloads to stay mobile.
Lightning Stance: Not generally useful without shenanigans.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Only really useful if your a Musket Master or Pistolero who wants full firearm proficiency.
Improved Critical: You can't Keen firearms, so this is the path to ensuring you critical more often.
Improved Initiative: If you act before other creatures on the first round, they'll be denied their Dex, meaning it's that much easier to hit them.
Improved Unarmed Strike: You're better off picking this up by dipping Monk.
Deflect Arrows: Yes, you can deflect bullets with your bare hands. :smallwink:
Snatch Arrows: You can snatch bullets but it's not really worthwhile, since you have to provide the black powder to fire it. You'd be better off with Secret Stash Deed for free ammo.
Rest of IUS Tree: You're not a Monk, don't worry about it.
Improvised Weapon Mastery: No, just...no.
Intimidating Prowess: Strength isn't a high priority.
Lunge: Doesn't work with Snap Shot.
Mounted Combat: Outrider Halflings and Goblins are the only ones who care but it's nice for getting you to Penetration range without using your Move action and then full attacking once there.
Mounted Archery: If you're going the Mounted Combat route, you need this right after.
Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge: Melee-only; sorry, no Spirited Gun Charges.
Trample: Can be situationally useful but requires a hooved animal to fully take advantage of for the free hoof attack.
Unseat: Just shoot the guy in the chest plate with your gun, he'll fall off just fine.
Point-Blank Shot: Prerequisite and almost always applies pre-Distance firearms.
Far Shot: Beyond the first increment is typically beyond Penetration range, which you don't generally care about.
Precise Shot: Just as important for you as other archers, as hitting touch AC is still difficult with that -4 for shooting into melee.
Improved Precise Shot: Ignore cover and concealment, which is the bane of archers everywhere.
Pinpoint Targeting: You already hit Touch AC.
Shot on the Run: Has the same prereqs as Leaping Shot, doesn't cost Grit and doesn't leave you prone. Nice alternative.
Rapid Shot: If you have free action reloads, this can definitely help enhance your damage output for less cost than other archers.
Manyshot: Not firearm friendly or friendly to anything besides bows, considering it specifies arrows. No Double Taps here.
Power Attack chain: Deadly Aim is your bread and butter, not this or any of the rest.
Quick Draw: Thematic, helps you switch guns fast and gets boosted by Gunslinger Initiative. Nothing not to like.
Rapid Reload: In combination with alchemical cartridges and Fast Musket, this is the path to free action reloads of your favorite gun. Opens up iteratives and Rapid Shot, which is important. Save a slot for this!
Shield Proficiency chain: Unless you're a Gun Tank, it's not particularly useful.
Step Up: Mildly useful with Snap Shot, not at all otherwise.
Strike Back: Melee-only.
Throw Anything: You already have a ranged attack.
Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved and Greater: Can be done but requires shenanigans.
Double Slice: Not generally useful to you except as a prereq to Two-Weapon Rend.
Two-Weapon Rend: Doesn't specify attack type so hey, free damage, just have to suck up Double Slice.
Two-Weapon Defense: You can take it but Dodge is less restrictive.
Vital Strike, Improved and Greater: Standard action, feat-scaled variant to Dead Shot. YMMV.
Weapon Finesse: You have an option in Snap Shot to not have to bother with this.
Weapon Focus: Point Blank Shot gives you damage on top of the attack boost without specifying a weapon.
Dazzling Display: You can make this work reasonably well, especially as a Mysterious Stranger
Shatter Defenses: Deny more AC types against your attacks, especially if you use Menacing Shot.
Deadly Stroke: Gritless alternative to Bleeding Wound, though this is a standard action and a setup to BW's free action.
Rest of WF Tree: You don't have Fighter levels to get any of the rest.

Advanced Player's Guide
General Feats
Additional Traits: There are many good traits out there and you may want to squeeze a couple extra if your default number isn't enough.
Arcane Blast, Arcane Shield, Aspect of the Beast, Cloud Step, Deep Drinker, Diviner's Delving, Eldritch Claws, Elemental Focus, Fast Drinker, Favored Defense, Greater Elemental Focus, Improved Share Spells, Leaf Singer, Lingering Performance, Major Spell Expertise, Minor Spell Expertise, Parry Spell, Preferred Spell, Raging Vitality, Spell Perfection, Spider Step, Stone Singer, Summoner's Call, Tenacious Transmutation, Vermin Heart, War Singer: You either can't qualify or it's otherwise useless to you without multiclassing.
Arcane Talent: Like the Magical Talent trait but 3/day and about as relevant, though it can combo nicely with the Haunted Gnome chain, since the feats don't care where the cantrip comes from.
Breadth of Experience: You're not that Knowledge dependent, considering you only have 2 naturally. Very RP.
Childlike: Goes hand-in-hand for Halfling Mysterious Strangers with No Name. Also an excuse to be Billy the Kid. :smalltongue:
Cooperative Crafting: Only useful in conjunction with Master Craftsman but can make crafting magic ammo, firearms and accessories that much easier and time efficient.
Cosmopolitan: If your traits are tied up, this can get you the skills and languages you need to truly be a Face, which is an important consideration for a Mysterious Stranger
Deepsight: Handy for Dwarven or Half-Orc snipers in the dark or for getting the drop on others in poor light conditions in general.
Eagle Eyes: Gunslingers are generally some of the most perceptive characters around, this only makes you more so and being able to do so makes you able to engage at range that much more often.
Eclectic: If you really need this, Half-Elf gets you this and more. Taking it essentially makes you a worse Half-Elf and no one wants that.
Expanded Arcana, Extra Bombs, Extra Discovery, Extra Hex, Extra Rage Power, Extra Revelation, Extra Rogue Talent, Practiced Tactician: Getting more of things you don't have without multiclassing.
Fast Healer: The prereqs are pretty heavy for not much benefit.
Fight On: Kinda what Diehard should look like if it was done right but it's still a reactive measure rather than a proactive one.
Gnome Trickster: Fairly RP.
Go Unnoticed: Handy for Halfling Snipers.
Groundling: Fairly RP unless you're mounted on a burrowing creature, for whom this isn't bad.
Heroic Defiance: If you can get through the prereqs, this can be handy to have in your back pocket but you need to deal with those prereqs, which is fairly painful.
Heroic Recovery: See Heroic Defiance.
Improved Stonecunning: Not a bad investment to avoid pits and other such traps.
Stone Sense: Rather short range for a ranged attacker.
Ironguts: Handy but kinda RP.
Ironhide: Dodge is probably a better investment.
Keen Scent: Detecting that ambush by their unwashed bodies can save your neck.
Smell Fear: Really hard to setup where it would be useful.
Light Step: Nice enhancement on Acrobatic Steps.
Lucky Halfling: You have good saves all around, very much a good feat for party survival.
Master Alchemist: Like Master Craftsman but with a more immediate benefit. You probably have at least 1 rank, you can make good use of this if there isn't an Alchemist in the party.
Pass for Human: Works nicely for Mysterious Strangers or those with No Name.
Racial Heritage: Can be a handy method to get racial exclusives without being locked into that race.
Razortusk: Not that handy for a ranged attacker and anyways the Toothy alternate racial trait does the same thing without sucking up a feat.
Shared Insight: Make your oblivious companions not so much!
Sharp Senses: Skill Focus is less restrictive than this and gives more advantage in the long run. Only really handy for Half-Elves who already have Skill Focus(Perception) or anybody else that already has it but even then, this isn't that great.
Sociable: Make your tongue-tied companions less so! Not as handy as Shared Insight but not that bad for Mysterious Strangers.
Steel Soul: A game where this will never come up is about as rare as hen's teeth.
Stone-Faced: Seems more a fix to a problem than anything, Skill Focus(Bluff) is probably more efficient.
Taunt: Handy for Halfling Mysterious Strangers.
Well-Prepared: Situationally useful, though you probably just want to be actually prepared.
Combat Feats
Bashing Finish, Covering Defense, Greater Shield Specialization, Missile Shield, Saving Shield, Shield Specialization: Like the rest of the shield feats, only useful to Gun Tanks for the most part.
Bloody Assault, Bull Rush Strike, Charge Through, Cockatrice Strike, Crossbow Mastery, Dastardly Finish, Dazing Assault, Disarming Strike, Disrupting Shot, Dreadful Carnage, Elemental Fist, Furious Focus, Gang Up, Greater Blind-Fight, Greater Dirty Trick, Greater Drag, Greater Reposition, Greater Steal, Improved Blind-Fight, Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Drag, Improved Ki Throw, Improved Reposition, Improved Steal, Ki Throw, Perfect Strike, Point-Blank Master, Punishing Kick, Pushing Assault, Ray Shield, Rending Claws, Repositioning Strike, Shield of Swings, Smash, Stabbing Shot, Stunning Assault, Sundering Strike, Swift Aid, Team Up, Teleport Tactician, Touch of Serenity, Tripping Strike: Not generally applicable to the art of Gunslinging, at least not without multiclassing.
Bodyguard, In Harm's Way: Only really worth mentioning if in combination with Combat Reflexes/Snap Shot but, while you have the resources (AoOs and HP), it's more tanky than Gunslingers tend to be.
Combat Patrol: Actually rather scary in combination with Snap Shot and Improved Snap Shot, as a 35' radius threatened area at 20th level is rather impressive, plus it doesn't depend on melee attacks. Damn useful before 20th as well.
Crippling Critical: You'll cripple somebody's movement regardless of their save, so it's a nice bit of control.
Enforcer: Requires melee, otherwise could have been an interesting combination with Bludgeoner.
Focused Shot: By RAW doesn't work with firearms but firearms didn't exist when this was written, so that can't be helped. Actually kinda useful for a Gunslinger/Alchemist for a useful Cognatogen/Mutagen, since the Dex-boosting Mutagen tanks Wis and the Wis-boosting Cognatogen tanks Dex. Hurting Str doesn't do a Gunslinger any harm. Also handy for Elven Gunslingers.
Following Step: Definite enhancement on Step Up but still about as relevant as Step Up is to most 'slingers.
Step Up and Strike: Specifies a melee attack, so pretty useless to 'slingers regardless of Snap Shot.
Low Profile: Handy when working with or against other ranged characters.
Mounted Shield: Handy for mounted Gun Tanks, I guess? Adding your shield bonus for Mounted Combat's attack negate is kinda nice, though.
Parting Shot: Makes Lightning Stance actually viable, since you can attack while you activate it with this. Would be much better if it was more than once per encounter, though. You probably want the Vital Strike line to make it truly nice, though.
Second Chance: The only reason for a Gunslinger to take Combat Expertise, this is especially useful for Mysterious Strangers to avoid misfires, since they can't fix their guns as easily as other 'slingers.
Improved Second Chance: Doesn't hurt as much as it does for other attackers and makes Second Chance even more viable.
Shadow Strike: Not applicable to 'slingers, even Pistoleros.
Sidestep: Like Step Up, not generally useful to 'slingers except perhaps Snap Shooters.
Improved Sidestep: Small improvement on something you most likely weren't going to take.
Trick Riding: Damn handy for mounted 'slingers, especially for two mount attack negates a turn.
Mounted Skirmisher: Not relevant to you, as ranged full attacks are possible from the start without this feat.
Under and Over: It's...overly specific on the boost it provides. To make it particularly useful would probably require the Trip chain.
Underfoot: Handy for getting in and around opponents, especially as a Snap Shooter.
Teamwork Feats
Note: C means they are also Combat Feats and can thus be selected as a Gunslinger Bonus Feat.

Allied Caster: Can't use it without multiclassing.
Coordinated DefenseC: Your CMD should be pretty high just from your focus on Dex and Nimble.
Coordinated ManeuversC: Maneuvers aren't really your cup of tea outside of what Deeds provide.
Duck and Cover: Reflex is probably your best save as-is. The cover bonus isn't a bad thing when fighting other ranged characters but Dodge is always on and works against everything.
LookoutC: Probably one of the best Teamwork feats in the game, as it helps negate surprise rounds against you and makes you that much more useful when you and your partner both aren't surprised.
OutflankC: Only relevant for Snap Shooters but actually pretty nice for them if you can buddy up with a crit fisher.
Paired OpportunistsC: For Snap Shooters only but works nicely with Outflank.
Precise StrikeC: Requires melee attacks, pass.
Shield WallC: Only relevant for Gun Tanks.
Shielded Caster: Not useful to you at all.
Swap PlacesC: More a Snap Shooter thing but tactically advantageous regardless.

Ultimate Magic

Note: Let's keep this simple and I'll just cover the feats that can be taken without multiclassing, otherwise I'll just have a big wad of red feats that aren't relevant. Also, C means they are also Combat Feats and can thus be selected as a Gunslinger Bonus Feat.
Antagonise: While nerfed by the UM errata, it's still a nice feat for controlling enemy actions. You probably want to pick up Diplomacy and Sense Motive as class skills to fully use but it's very nice for Mysterious Strangers, especially if their guns get fouled up.
Eldritch Heritage chain: There are actually quite a few handy bloodlines to delve into, even with just the first feat, like Arcane to pick up Arcane Bond with a free masterwork gun or Sylvan to pick up an animal companion. To fully take advantage of this, best entry is Half-Elf Mysterious Stranger but any 'slinger can benefit from delving into their family tree to seek power.
Learn Ranger Trap: The best traps are Ranger only but I'm sure someone can find a nice use for one of these, since you're only ever going to have one without multiclassing heavily into Trapper Ranger. You also can't take Extra Ranger Trap, since this doesn't provide the Trap class feature. YMMV.
Prodigy: It's pretty flexible, unlike the other skill boosting feats, but since they only apply to Craft, Perform and Profession, it's not that great outside RP.
Quarterstaff Master chain: Not exactly your weapon of choice.
Ricochet Splash Weapon: Definitely Alchemist fare, not something you care about.
Uncanny Alertness: Being more discerning isn't something you should mind, and the save boosts are nice. Probably not worthwhile overall, though.
Voice of the Sybil: The other skill boosters aren't voice-dependent but this stacks with Deceitful and Persuasive, so it can nicely round out your face skills if you want to invest that much into it.

[Cieyrin]

Ultimate Combat
General Feats
Adept Champion, Bolstered Resistance, Branded for Retribution, Cartwheel Dodge, Channeled Revival, Channeling Scourge, Contingent Healing, Crusader's Flurry, Crushing Blow, Deceptive Exchange. Destructive Dispel, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, Dimensional Dervish, Dimensional Maneuvers, Dimensional Savant, Discordant Voice, Dispel Synergy, Dispelling Fist, Disposable Weapon, Disruptive Recall, Double Bane, Elusive Redirection, Expert Driver, Extra Bane, Furious Finish, Greater Channel Smite, Harmonic Sage, Improved Stalwart, Instant Judgement, Intimidating Bane, Knockout Artist, Master Combat Performer, Maximized Spellstrike, Menacing Bane, Merciful Bane, Planar Wild Shape, Raging Brutality, Raging Deathblow, Raging Hurler, Raging Throw, Righteous Healing, Shapeshifter Foil, Shapeshifting Hunter, Shared Judgement, Skilled Driver, Slayer's Knack, Sneaking Precision, Sorcerous Strike, Spell Bane, Splintering Weapon, Stalwart: Requires multiclassing or features that aren't really relevant to you.
Betrayer: Would be hilarious on a Mysterious Stranger if it wasn't melee only. I want to shoot him in the face when he doesn't expect it! :smallfurious:
Disorienting Maneuver: You don't really need the attack boost and tumbling through enemy spaces isn't exactly a high priority.
Field Repair: Gunsmithing does everything relevant to you except removal the penalty for improvised tools and you also get it for free. Only real use is in combination with Fortified Armor Training and for Mysterious Strangers who use it as their version of Quick Clear.
Guided Hand: Only worth mentioning in that, if you can find a deity who favors your firearm and you multiclass for Channel Smite (Holy Gun or Divine Hunter Paladin makes the most sense but Cleric is the quickest), you could emphasize Wis. "I do not shoot with my hand. He who shoots with his hand has forgotten the face of his father. I shoot with my mind.", indeed. :smallbiggrin:
Gunsmithing: You get it for free, you get ammo and firearms cheaper, Mysterious Strangers can fix their guns in an hour and you can upgrade your original gun to masterwork. Nothing not to like about this, just remember to grab Craft(Alchemy) to make alchemical cartridges.
Rhetorical Flourish: More a Mysterious Stranger feat but still useful if you pick up Diplomacy as a class skill and are pulling Face duty.
Sea Legs: All the physical skills boosted in one feat package, regardless of where you are. Hefty price in ranks and doesn't advance like other skill boosters. Gunslingers fit pirate flavor pretty well, so definitely something to consider if the price can be negotiated.
Strong Comeback: Plays very nice with Slinger's Luck. Unfortunately doesn't work with Second Chance.
Sure Grasp: Kinda situational, unless your campaign is all about mountain combat or you're serious about sniper nests.
Trapper's Setup: More a rogue thing but if you know Ranger traps, it may be worth your while.
Combat Feats
Adder Strike, Arc Slinger, Binding Throw, Body Shield, Bonebreaker, Break Guard, Chokehold, Cleaving Finish, Crusader's Fist, Death From Above, Death or Glory, Disengaging Feint chain, Dispelling Critical, Domain Strike, Drag Down, Felling Escape, Felling Smash, Feral Combat Training, Final Embrace, Final Embrace Horror, Final Embrace Master, Flanking Foil, Hex Strike, Horse Master, Impaling Critical chain, Improved Cleaving Finish, Jawbreaker, Monastic Legacy, Neckbreaker, Net Adept chain, Nightmare Fist chain, Performance Weapon Mastery, Performing Combatant, Pin Down, Pinning Knockout, Pinning Rend, Pinpoint Poisoner, Prone Slinger, Quick Bull Rush, Quick Dirty Trick, Quick Drag, Quick Reposition, Quick Steal, Rapid Grappler, Rebounding Leap, Rebuffing Reduction, Rending Fury chain, Revelation Strike, Sap Adept chain, School Strike, Siege Commander, Siege Engineer chain, Spinning Throw, Twin Thunders chain, Two-Weapon Feint chain, Vicious Stomp, Wave Strike, Whip Mastery chain: You either can't qualify or it isn't generally relevant to gunslinging.
Amateur Gunslinger: While you can't take it if you're already a Gunslinger, if you multiclass to pick it up, it can be a handy way to pick up either a free 1st level Deed (notice the Special text say 'can,' not 'must') and an extra point of Grit or trade it Extra Grit and 2 points of Grit. Win-Win!
Bludgeoner: Firearms deal bludgeoning and piercing, thus you can use this to knock people out without using Salt Shot, which is scatter only, anyways. Also works nicely with Sap Adept chain if you multiclass in the Sneak Attack.
Charging Hurler chain, Close-Quarters Thrower, Distance Thrower, Two-Handed Thrower: You're not that into throwing, you're more of a shooter kind of guy. Leave to Alchemists and Barbarians.
Clustered Shots: Kind of handy for bypassing DR, since it only applies once when using the feat. On the other hand, Dead Shot is also there for handling this kind of problem.
Combat Style Master: There are a couple of relevant Styles that you can actually make use of as a 'slinger, so this may be useful for switching between them and making sure the relevant one is up at combat start.
Deadly Finish: Melee-only and you get Grit from dropping foes to 0, you don't have to kill them for it to work.
Deathless Initiate chain: It's not bad, per se, but I've never been a fan of spending feats on situations that don't occur that often. Not to mention the attack and damage bonus is melee only. Best leave it Half-Orc Unbreakable Fighters.
Defensive Weapon Training: Dodge is always on and doesn't depend on my opponent's choice of maiming instrument. Pass.
Devastating Strike chain: If you decided to go for the Vital Strike chain, as opposed to Dead Shot, this may be worthwhile. It has a slightly more snipery feel to it, though it still doesn't work with Far-Reaching Sights, which is incredibly annoying.
False Opening: If you managed to make your way into Point-Blank Master (you didn't come from Close Quarters Thrower, right? Right? :smallfrown:), this can eat up AoOs that would be otherwise directed at your less nimble buddies but this seems like a lot of investment just for that. I think Dodge + Mobility is a better bet.
Fortified Armor Training: A Gun Tank's best friend, this can work for other 'slingers as well but the Gun Tank can use it twice on their armor and shield.
Gory Finish: Unless you know you're going to drop an enemy, Dazzling Display would seem to be a better use.
Hammer the Gap: More damage that scales the more I hit? Easy prereqs? Yes, please!
Haunted Gnome: Not that good by itself, especially at low levels when you have very short durations.
Haunted Gnome Assault: Now that's actually kind of useful as a free no-save debuff up to 3 times per day but even nicer with Deadly Stroke, though you can only get it off as a crit, unless you want to charge in for it.
Haunted Gnome Shroud: Concealment up to 4 times per day, more if you pick up Arcane Talent or Magical Talent? Yes, please! :smallbiggrin:
Impact Critical Shot: In combination with Critical Focus, this can add insult to injury if they survive the critical, though be careful you don't push your target out of Penetration range. If it's the last hit, tripping them for your melee buddies isn't a bad thing for finishing them off.
Landing Roll: I think I'd rather invest in not being tripped at all.
Moonlight Stalker: Not great requirements for you but you can activate it with Wind Stance, Lightning Stance (with Parting Shot) or Haunted Gnome Shroud for free attack and damage buffs.
Moonlight Stalker Feint: Feint that still allows full attacks? Sure!
Moonlight Stalker Master: Makes your concealment better and free movement, what's not to like?
Opening Volley: Only really useful if you're pursuing Sword and Pistol, though if you have to close you'll definitely still benefit regardless.
Passing Trick: Free feints are never a bad thing, though it's a lot of investment.
Prone Shooter: Your Admiral Ackbar senses should be going off like a tornado siren, for this is a TRAP. There aren't any ranged attack penalties for being prone.
Snap Shot: Requires a lot of investment but well worth it, as you threaten and can AoO with your firearm of choice.
Improved Snap Shot: Even better than the original, you're what 3.5 Spiked Chain wielders were feared for but worse. :smallamused:
Greater Snap Shot: Only works on AoOs but they hurt more than your normal attacks do. Not strictly necessary for Snap Shooters but it automatically improves with more BAB, so not a bad investment, either.
Sword and Pistol: Even more investment than getting the prerequisite Snap Shot. Deft Shootist is probably a better investment.
Grit Feats
Insert Info Here
Style Feats
Insert Info Here
Teamwork Feats
Insert Info Here

[Cieyrin]

Reserved Post #6

[Cieyrin]

Reserved Post #7

[Cieyrin]

And Reserved Post #8 for good measure. Alright, I should be good. Feel free to post, Playground, while I write and look up appropriate pictures. Will start filling in info tomorrow, just laying out the handbook this evening. Tired now, sleep calls...

[Frosty]

What kinda pictures are you looking for? People holding guns? How about this one?
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8744/horiadociusniperconcept.jpg

[Starbuck_II]

I have a few:

Kind of a Anime School girl with guns:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SP9cTgPs2GE/TgFULHLy5YI/AAAAAAAAIew/b99rj62Q08E/s1600/Sexy_Manga__624.jpg

Found one with a girl holding a gun/stake:
http://media.photobucket.com/image/D%2526D%20gun%20using/human_folly/dnd/forums/Avinrai.png

Boomstick:
http://www.halfblogre.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Boomstick.jpg

Guy with gun on cliff:
http://uniquefrequency.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/darktower21.jpg

[Cieyrin]

I have a few:

Kind of a Anime School girl with guns:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SP9cTgPs2GE/TgFULHLy5YI/AAAAAAAAIew/b99rj62Q08E/s1600/Sexy_Manga__624.jpg

Found one with a girl holding a gun/stake:
http://media.photobucket.com/image/D%2526D%20gun%20using/human_folly/dnd/forums/Avinrai.png

Boomstick:
http://www.halfblogre.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Boomstick.jpg

Guy with gun on cliff:
http://uniquefrequency.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/darktower21.jpg

I could work with these, yeah. Got busy yesterday, writing stuff up this morning to give people something to read at least.

2nd Post half done. I'll write up Deeds and get into the meat of what everyone cares about for making Gunslingers: Races, Feats, Skill and Traits. Oy vey, formatting will be the death of me...

[grarrrg]

Quick links to things I submitted to the guide:
Multi/Prestige Class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11895292#post11895292)
Archetype breakdown (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12000736#post12000736)
Short Feat list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12586801#post12586801)
2-Weapon Reloading Mini-Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12589453#post12589453)
Race section Update (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12602897#post12602897)


Submission for the Builds section. (feel free to edit down for space)
I would like if someone could check my math (accuracy/damage per shot/etc...)
(Gundolon v1.3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12152413#post12152413))


The Gundolon (taking requests for a Punnier name)
http://www.horrorstew.com/images/sixshooterPM005.jpg

Kind of like this, but with more arms
The following build is based around the "Leaping Shot Deed" feat, it is presented as a level 20 build, although it can begin making use of its trick around levels 6 - 8. If starting at a low level, it is greatly recommended to rearrange levels/feats to make it more playable at low levels.

The core of the build is Gunslinger 1, Summoner 3 (Synthesist, in Eidolon-form this will give you 3-Bab from the 3 Summoner Levels), from there your options are wide open. Play it safe and go 'Slinger 17/Sum 3 (effectively 20bab), or go arms wild with 'Slinger 1/Sum 19 (effectively 16bab). Or anywhere in between, a dip in Fighter is highly encouraged for the feats though.

Race: Halfling, small, -2 Str +2 Dex, +2 Cha (Halfling chosen to allow small-Eidolon-Form, Human is recommended for low-level starts, Half-Elf a good choice for a Summoner heavy build, or a '2-class' type build))
Classes:
Gunslinger 4 (Mysterious Stranger)
Fighter 4 (Weapon Master)
Summoner 10 (Synthesist)
Rogue 2 (Normal or Sniper) Can replace with Ninja 2 and trade Evasion for a Ki Pool.
Sample 15-point buy: (feel free to tweak if starting at low levels)
Str 8 (10-2)
Dex 15 (13+2)
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 22 (15+2race+5levels)
8d10+12d8 HD (avg 98 +40 from con)
Bab 16 (17 in Eidolon-Form or if using Fractional)
All saves will be medium/great
Gunslinger 4 (Mysterious Stranger) gives Gun Prof., a Grit pool based on Cha, various Deeds, a Bonus feat, and the ability to spend Grit to gain Cha-to-Damage
Fighter 4 (Weapon Master) gives 3 bonus feats, and +1 att/damage with chosen weapon (weapon training at level 3 instead of armor training)
Summoner 12 (Synthesist) The Eidolon's physical stats will replace our own (hence our poor Str/Dex scores), we will be using a Small Quadruped Eidolon for the net +2 to-hit -1 damage (weaon size). Eidolon-form stats after all bonuses/penalties are Str 14, Dex 22, Con 11. We have 14 Evolution points, most of these will be spent on adding Arms (saving a few points for utility powers, like Wings). Quadruped was chosen for efficiency purposes, Leaping Shot lets you move as part of the action, so we either spend Evo-points on legs, or start with them, if legs are less of a concern, feel free to choose a different base-form, none are bad.
Rogue 2 (normal or Sniper) +1d6 Sneak attack, Evasion, a Rogue Talent, and either Trapfinding OR reduced ranged penalties (description states Bow or Crossbow, but adding Firearms make sense). Our Talent will either be "Stand Up", so we can stand up from Prone as a Free Action (Leaping Shot leaves us prone), Or, "Grit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/grit-ex)" to gain Extra Grit AND a Grit Deed as bonus feats (RAW this won't work with pre-existing levels of Gunslinger, but RAI it makes sense).

Feats: 14 (+2 if "Grit" Rogue talent is allowed) (10 levels, 1 Gunslinger, 3 Fighter) these are listed in no particular order, any weapon specific feats are assumed to be for Firearm-Pistol. (most feats are just a guideline, only the feats up through level 5 are necessary)
1 Rapid Reload
3 Dodge
4 Mobility (G)
5 Leaping Shot Deed
5 Point-Blank Shot (F)
6 Quick-Draw (F)
7 Two/Multi-Weapon Fighting (yet another RAW hole, they are effectively the same feat, and Multi even says it 'replaces' Two-Weap for creatures with more arms, there is also debate whether you even need this when using Leaping Shot)
8 Deadly Aim (F)
9 Precise Shot
11 Deft Shootist Deed
13 Weapon Focus
15 Weapon Specialization
17 Improved Critical (Keen is not an option on firearms)
19 Improved Initiative
If "Grit" Rogue talent is allowed, then add Extra Grit and any one other feat (Grit-Talent feat would be Leaping Shot Deed, freeing up a normal feat slot)
Secret Stash deed might be handy, as you can pay Grit/Gold to "find" a bullet hidden on yourself (this CAN be an enchanted bullet, but you only get 1-shot per Grit)

We shall assume your Eidolon-form has 12 arms total, each holding a pistol. 2 of your pistols are your "main weapons" and are pimped out with abilities, the remaining 10 will probably have minimal upgrades based on what you can afford (at most +1, and a variety of specialty enchantments, like Bane, or Axiomatic). Distance is recommended.

Leaping Shot lets you spend a Grit to move your full distance, and attack with all of your firearms, at any point during the move, at your full Bab.
Adding that all together (assume all pistols are +1 only):
12 attacks, each with...
To-hit: +22 (17bab, 6dex, 1weapon, 1wep-focus, 1size, 1Fight3, -5deadly aim)
Damage: 1d6+20 (1d6+1weapon, +10deadly aim, +6cha, +2wep-spec, +1Fight3) add 1d6 for possible Sneak Attack.
Most will hit, and 1 of those will be a Critical for x4 damage, and will regain a Grit point.
If all of them hit, with 1 Critical, you will be doing around 350 damage in the first round of combat. (somebody double check please). Closer to 400 w/ Sneak Attack.

Round 2 of combat will be trickier, as you will need to reload 12 guns. Unless you have Double Barrelled Pistols, then Round 2 is the same as Round 1, and Round 3 is reload time.
If Revolvers/Cartidges are allowed, I highly urge you to make use of them.

Final notes: The presented build is skewed towards "heavy damage/Nova", feel free to adjust class levels up/down. Dropping Summoner/Rogue and adding Fighter/Gunslinger can up the survivability and efficiency at the cost of raw damage.
Adding Paladin 2, for Cha-to-saves and a Smite Evil, is also a good option.

[Cieyrin]

Definitely like what I see, grarrrg. I'll give it a more thorough read-over as I get towards multiclassing and builds. I would recommend pursuing Sythesist a bit later on in the build, due to the costs of firearms being prohibitive in the early levels, as well as getting Improved Critical and Critical Focus as early as possible to help with Grit regeneration. I may have further recommendations later. Also using double-barreled pistols may help with getting a second barrage off. The only trouble is getting up from prone rapidly, though I think there's a Rogue Talent for that...

Also the first set of Deeds are up. I decided that I'd include Archetype deeds in the appropriate sections to better facilitate side-by-side comparison. I should have Deeds done either tonight or tomorrow. Sorry about how slow this guide is going, my computer has been getting rather wonky about any serious writing I attempt to do, plus my internet device gets a bit testy at night to where it randomly resets and is rather slow. Makes getting things I want done difficult at times. :smallmad:

[grarrrg]

As an alternative to a Cha-based Gundolon is to go Pistolero (or straight Gunslinger) and take 5 levels to gain Dex to damage.
The advantages are reduced misfire, and your bonus damage is always on (don't need to spend a Swift-action+Grit).
The disadvantages are you'll need to wait til Gunslinger 5 for the bonus damage, and you will have to boost Wis to have a decent Grit pool, while still retaining some Cha to cast Summoner spells (depending on your planned Summoner level, you only need 13-to-15 Cha).

NOTE: I am aware that you can take multiple archetypes, so long as they don't replace the same feature. As posted on the pfsrd (I don't have the book), there appears to be no conflict between Mysterious Stranger and Pistolero. But Pistolero's 'Pistol Training' is obviously meant to replace 'Gun Training'. Mysterious Stranger has already traded away Gun Training, hence, you cannot take both.
Insert Sad-Face as you can't get Dex AND Cha to damage.

[Cieyrin]

NOTE: I am aware that you can take multiple archetypes, so long as they don't replace the same feature. As posted on the pfsrd (I don't have the book), there appears to be no conflict between Mysterious Stranger and Pistolero. But Pistolero's 'Pistol Training' is obviously meant to replace 'Gun Training'. Mysterious Stranger has already traded away Gun Training, hence, you cannot take both.
Insert Sad-Face as you can't get Dex AND Cha to damage.

Believe me, I checked that first thing. By RAW, since Pistolero doesn't say it replaces Gun Training, you can technically take both Archetypes and be a Mysterious Pistolero. That is, till the errata comes out and Mysterious Stranger's free Deed gets errata'd to replace another 11th level Deed as well. In the mean time, enjoy your freebie if your DM isn't wise to your ways and sees that it's an obvious mistake. :smallwink:

[Larpus]

On a related note I find it rather interesting how DMs are quick to notice RAIs when they screw you but are oblivious to when they help you.

Anyway, good stuff on the guide, Gunslinger seems like a fun class, don't think I'll ever play one in the near future (unless my current character dies), but anyway, been a long time since I've actually cared for a non-magical class (other than Barbarian).

[Lord.Sorasen]

Does this mean gunslingers automatically know how to perform all there deeds? That is a lot more impressive than I realized.

[Cieyrin]

Does this mean gunslingers automatically know how to perform all there deeds? That is a lot more impressive than I realized.

That is correct, Deeds are not chosen like Rogue Talents or Rage Powers; if you're high enough level, you get them automatically. You can change what Deeds you get via choosing an Archetype or get new ones via Grit feats.

[search116]

Good work so far can't wait for the rest of the handbook. This is going to be extremely helpful as my friends and I are finally going to make the transition from 3.5 to PF.

[Cieyrin]

Good work so far can't wait for the rest of the handbook. This is going to be extremely helpful as my friends and I are finally going to make the transition from 3.5 to PF.

I'll see what I can do over the holiday weekend. At the very least I'll finish Deeds and start working on the next section, if not more.

[BlueInc]

That is correct, Deeds are not chosen like Rogue Talents or Rage Powers; if you're high enough level, you get them automatically. You can change what Deeds you get via choosing an Archetype or get new ones via Grit feats.

Wow. I really want to play a Gunslinger now.

Pathfinder really needs to make a melee "Gunslinger" class to replace the Fighter. Just...a Fighter with daily resources and unique class features.

[Larpus]

Wow. I really want to play a Gunslinger now.

Pathfinder really needs to make a melee "Gunslinger" class to replace the Fighter. Just...a Fighter with daily resources and unique class features.
Or just hope that they apply what they're learning as far as class design go to the old classes...I mean the UC Rage Powers are horrid.

[Exelbirth]

Glad to see you're making an updated version of the old handbook. My DM is going to be having a five-man party do the Zeitgeist campaign that the people from War of the Burning Sky are publishing now. I'm going in as a musketman, following the old guide you put out. Our first session's going to be October 1st, so I'm hoping you got this mostly completed by then *gives thumbs up*

If my character manages to die, well, I'll be sad, but I'm going to bring in a scout variant rogue/gunslinger combo if I die late enough in the campaign.

[Cieyrin]

Glad to see you're making an updated version of the old handbook. My DM is going to be having a five-man party do the Zeitgeist campaign that the people from War of the Burning Sky are publishing now. I'm going in as a musketman, following the old guide you put out. Our first session's going to be October 1st, so I'm hoping you got this mostly completed by then *gives thumbs up*

If my character manages to die, well, I'll be sad, but I'm going to bring in a scout variant rogue/gunslinger combo if I die late enough in the campaign.

Well, I should hopefully be done by then. Glad to see the old guide is helpful as well. Let me know how it goes and whether your experience with my recommendations pans out. :smallsmile:

[Exelbirth]

I'm actually having a bit of trouble deciding how I want my gunslinger rogue to develop in the later levels. She's going to be focused on staying fairly close to the enemy, 20 - 15 feet, and when she gets the skirmish ability she'll be circling around the battlefield pulling off sneak attacks. Any suggestions?

[Frosty]

Well, I should hopefully be done by then. Glad to see the old guide is helpful as well. Let me know how it goes and whether your experience with my recommendations pans out. :smallsmile:

Is the guide going to contain hints about how to do stuff other than shoot things? People say the Gunslinger is tier5 like the Fighter. Are Gunslingers really so single-tracked?

[Exelbirth]

Is the guide going to contain hints about how to do stuff other than shoot things? People say the Gunslinger is tier5 like the Fighter. Are Gunslingers really so single-tracked?

For the most part they seem to be. Guns however aren't, if you see the other class variations that include gun training, like the wizard's gunmage type class.

[grarrrg]

Is the guide going to contain hints about how to do stuff other than shoot things? People say the Gunslinger is tier5 like the Fighter. Are Gunslingers really so single-tracked?

If anything a Gunslinger is MORE deserving of Tier 5 than a Fighter.
Let's compare Fighters to Gunslingers.
Gunslinger was originally going to be a "Fighter Alternate" (a fancy word for Mega-Archetype), so they start very similar. Neither class can cast. Gunslingers have 2 extra skill points a level, and a few more skills to chose from. But they don't have the Points, nor the selection to be a good Skill Monkey.
As a Fighter levels, he gains up to 11 bonus Combat Feats, Armor Training basically let's him treat Heavy armor as Light armor, and Weapon Training gives him up to +4 to-hit and Damage.
As a Gunslinger levels, he gains up to 5 bonus Combat/Grit Feats, Gun Training let's him add Dex-to-Damage, he gets a +5 bonus to AC, and gains a variety of Deeds.
Side by side it looks like the Gunslinger gets more stuff.
But if you notice, EVERYTHING the Gunslinger gets is Damage Focused. "Attack an enemy with a bonus", "Attack an enemy with a different bonus", etc... And most of the combat feats aren't worth taking on a ranged build.
Meanwhile, the Fighter has better weapon/armor selection, similar damage bonuses, and _6_ more bonus feats, so he can spread his feats out to gain more variety.

Long story short (too late), the Gunslinger is a Specialized Fighter, he is good at shooting things. While the Fighter can do whatever he wants to do, even shoot guns.


I'm actually having a bit of trouble deciding how I want my gunslinger rogue to develop in the later levels. She's going to be focused on staying fairly close to the enemy, 20 - 15 feet, and when she gets the skirmish ability she'll be circling around the battlefield pulling off sneak attacks. Any suggestions?

Well Skirmish comes at Rogue(Scout) 8, which gives 12 levels to work with. You'll probably want a bare minimum of 5 levels of Gunslinger (Dex-to-Damage). This leave 7 levels to work with. Might I interest you in some levels of Summoner? (see my post higher up the page) With Rogue(Scout) you'll only be guaranteed Sneak Attack on the first attack, but if you can catch someone off guard anyway, the damage could be enormous.

Barring Summoner... Gunslinger 8 is a decent stopping point as the next two levels only offer Gun Training on a second type of firearm, and another point of Nimble AC. Although if you go Pistolero, then level 9 will give you an extra +1 to damage.
Dipping Fighter for 1-to-4 levels is also viable. Levels 1,2 & 4 get you feats, and level 3 can be either an Armor Training bonus, or a +1 to-hit and Damage (weapon master).

Put any remaining levels into either Rogue or Gunslinger, as there isn't too much to gain from other dips.

[Exelbirth]

Well Skirmish comes at Rogue(Scout) 8, which gives 12 levels to work with. You'll probably want a bare minimum of 5 levels of Gunslinger (Dex-to-Damage). This leave 7 levels to work with. Might I interest you in some levels of Summoner? (see my post higher up the page) With Rogue(Scout) you'll only be guaranteed Sneak Attack on the first attack, but if you can catch someone off guard anyway, the damage could be enormous.

Barring Summoner... Gunslinger 8 is a decent stopping point as the next two levels only offer Gun Training on a second type of firearm, and another point of Nimble AC. Although if you go Pistolero, then level 9 will give you an extra +1 to damage.
Dipping Fighter for 1-to-4 levels is also viable. Levels 1,2 & 4 get you feats, and level 3 can be either an Armor Training bonus, or a +1 to-hit and Damage (weapon master).

Put any remaining levels into either Rogue or Gunslinger, as there isn't too much to gain from other dips.[/QUOTE]

I'm going to avoid summoner because the campaign this character will most likely be in is in a world that has limited interdimensional travel, making summons and dimension hopping fairly useless. Also, you can only fly for five minutes max.

I toyed a bit with Pistolero, but if I remember correctly, pistol training gives me a + to both attack and damage, with 5 max as straight Pistolero, and gun training gives me a + to damage equal to my dex. Since I plan on having a high dex using a ranged weapon, gun training would be the better option, so I agree with stopping before taking the next level with gun training.

Also, I was looking at the grit feat Leaping Shot, and I was wondering how that would apply with skirmish. Would I be able to make three sneak attacks at the expense of going prone, or would it only count the first one still, making the feat a bad option?

I hadn't thought of using any fighter levels until you mentioned them, and I think that might actually be worth it.

[Starbuck_II]

Or just hope that they apply what they're learning as far as class design go to the old classes...I mean the UC Rage Powers are horrid.

Is Dragon Totem in UC? Because It increases to your DR and adds Double new DR value as Energy Resistance.
Which is nice.

[grarrrg]

I toyed a bit with Pistolero, but if I remember correctly, pistol training gives me a + to both attack and damage, with 5 max as straight Pistolero, and gun training gives me a + to damage equal to my dex. Since I plan on having a high dex using a ranged weapon, gun training would be the better option, so I agree with stopping before taking the next level with gun training.

Also, I was looking at the grit feat Leaping Shot, and I was wondering how that would apply with skirmish. Would I be able to make three sneak attacks at the expense of going prone, or would it only count the first one still, making the feat a bad option?

Gun/Pistol Training (book may be different, I don't have it, I do have the pfsrd though)
Gunslinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger)Pistolero (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/pistolero)
Both read "almost" identically.
Both give you straight Dex-to-Damage, and reduce the misfire chance by 2.
(normal) Gun Training let's you add different types of Firearms as you level.
Pistol Training adds points of bonus damage as you level, and at 13 lets you ignore ALL misfires (from a 1-handed gun).
If you take at most 8 levels of Gunslinger then there is effectively no difference, and at level 9 you'd only gain +1 damage with pistols anyway.
Either way, I'd go Pistolero for the Up-Close-And-Deadly Deed.

As far as Skirmish+Leaping Shot, you would only get Sneak Attack on the first shot (if you can catch the target flat-footed then both get the damage anyway).
But there is no reloading during a Leaping Shot, so you'll probably only get 2 shots (Alchemist and Summoner are the only classes that can have extra arms).
Leaping Shot can still come in handy even without Sneak Attack or Extra Arms. You can shoot during ANY part of the move. First round of combat? Move closer and Fire twice. Badguys getting too close? Fire off two shots and beat a retreat. Or, if the terrain/movement allows it, spend half of your movement to get within Touch-AC range, fire, and then retreat.

I also recommend getting the Distance enchantment on your guns, it doubles the range you can target Touch AC.

[Exelbirth]

I also recommend getting the Distance enchantment on your guns, it doubles the range you can target Touch AC.

I was definitely planning on the distance enchantment, to make full use of the rogue's 30 foot sneak attack range.

[gartius]

or you could have any range of sneak attacks with sniper goggles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/goggles-sniper-goggles)

[Cieyrin]

or you could have any range of sneak attacks with sniper goggles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/goggles-sniper-goggles)

While handy, we want to sneak within the penetration range of the weapon, which sniper goggles doesn't change.

[grarrrg]

While handy, we want to sneak within the penetration range of the weapon, which sniper goggles doesn't change.

Forget about range with the goggles, read the last line "When making ranged sneak attacks within 30 feet, the wearer gains a +2 circumstance bonus on each sneak attack damage die."
CHA-CHING!

[Cieyrin]

Finally got the last deeds done. The next section should roll about a bit quicker, as I can just grab the info from the old guide and touch it up. It'll slow down a bit again as I review the feats and add UC feats to the mix. We shall see...

[grarrrg]

Finally got the last deeds done. The next section should roll about a bit quicker, as I can just grab the info from the old guide and touch it up. It'll slow down a bit again as I review the feats and add UC feats to the mix. We shall see...

You may want to add an extra notation to "Expert Loading" that Mysterious Stranger trades Quick Clear away, making it somewhat useful for them.
Then again, at 5th level Stranger can ignore Cha-mod-# Misfires per day.

[Exelbirth]

Forget about range with the goggles, read the last line "When making ranged sneak attacks within 30 feet, the wearer gains a +2 circumstance bonus on each sneak attack damage die."
CHA-CHING!

So does that mean that your sneak attack becomes xd6+2*x? Because that sounds like the perfect item to get later in the game if it does.

Sometime this week, I'll be finished with that gunrogue, and if anyone's interested, I'll post the build here if that's alright.

Also randomly started toying with making a Gunzerker build (tank variant slinger/barbarian combo with other classes potentially mixed in, if useful.)

[Prime32]

I'm pretty sure that a Large (or half-giant) gunslinger can use Lightning Reload to reload a cannon as a swift action. That seems worth noting.

Musket Master also seems like it would let you reload a cannon as if it were a one-handed firearm.

[Cieyrin]

I'm pretty sure that a Large (or half-giant) gunslinger can use Lightning Reload to reload a cannon as a swift action. That seems worth noting.

Musket Master also seems like it would let you reload a cannon as if it were a one-handed firearm.

I was going to include things you can do with cannons and mortars in their own section, as that's a bit outside the norm, really. I wanted to just deal with regular firearms in the deeds section, given siege weapons are also on the expensive side of things and the rules for large gunslingers with cannons is a bit unclear, given they don't give a weight for any of them, just that they can be wielded.

[Prime32]

the rules for large gunslingers with cannons is a bit unclear, given they don't give a weight for any of them, just that they can be wielded.
Eh? :smallconfused:
Inappropriately Sized Firearms: You cannot make optimum use of a firearm that is not properly sized for you. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between your size and the size of the firearm. If you are not proficient with the firearm, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies. The size of a firearm never affects how many hands you need to use to shoot it, the exception being siege firearms and Large or larger creatures. In most cases, a Large or larger creature can use a siege firearm as a two-handed firearm, but the creature takes a –4 penalty for using it this way because of its awkwardness.

[Cieyrin]

Eh? :smallconfused:

Yeah, I know it says that they can wield them as two-handed firearms and they take a penalty. But, to wield them, don't you need to be able to CARRY it? What good is a being able to wield a cannon if you can't adjust your aim? Maybe I'm overthinking how much cannons weigh in comparison to carrying capacity, encumbrance rules are just one of my pet peeves that I have to look at it. Given a quick Googling puts cannons between 500-3500 lbs, it makes me wonder, yknow? It doesn't help that the only thing we have to go by is the weight of the ammo and none of the actual dimensions of a large cannon or mortar to extrapolate it.

By my best guess, Large cannons are much like Demi-Cannons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demi-cannon), which weigh up to 5600 lbs. I mean, it's cool that we CAN use cannons individually, it's the matter of HOW we manage it that bothers me.

[Exelbirth]

Yeah, I know it says that they can wield them as two-handed firearms and they take a penalty. But, to wield them, don't you need to be able to CARRY it? What good is a being able to wield a cannon if you can't adjust your aim? Maybe I'm overthinking how much cannons weigh in comparison to carrying capacity, encumbrance rules are just one of my pet peeves that I have to look at it. Given a quick Googling puts cannons between 500-3500 lbs, it makes me wonder, yknow? It doesn't help that the only thing we have to go by is the weight of the ammo and none of the actual dimensions of a large cannon or mortar to extrapolate it.

By my best guess, Large cannons are much like Demi-Cannons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demi-cannon), which weigh up to 5600 lbs. I mean, it's cool that we CAN use cannons individually, it's the matter of HOW we manage it that bothers me.

I agree that they should have a weight posted. I mean, if they weigh that much, I think the only creatures that could wield them would be the strongest of giants, and not much else. Perhaps titans.

[Prime32]

You could always make them out of mithral? There there's the muleback cords (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/muleback-cords). Being Large doubles your carrying capacity and being a quadruped increases it by 50% - a Large quadruped with 20 Str can carry 1,200lbs as a light load or 3,600lbs as a heavy load.

Plus, real-world culverins weigh about 4,500lbs, while PF culverins weigh 40lbs.

A lot of groups don't keep track of carrying capacity anyway.

[Cieyrin]

You could always make them out of mithral? There there's the muleback cords (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/muleback-cords). Being Large doubles your carrying capacity and being a quadruped increases it by 50% - a Large quadruped with 20 Str can carry 1,200lbs as a light load or 3,600lbs as a heavy load.

I'll definitely make some notes on it when I get that far. Probably gonna want a bag of holding for transporting your cannon, ammo and guns so you aren't staggering everywhere at 5' a round, as well. In any case, best to provide back up for DMs calling shenanigans, y'know? :smallwink:


Plus, real-world culverins weigh about 4,500lbs, while PF culverins weigh 40lbs.

The text description has this to note:


Note that these statistics simulate only the original, hand-held culverins - their larger descendents are considered cannons and are dealt with in the section on siege weapons.

Paizo occasionally does proper research. :smallwink:

[Exelbirth]

Alright, so this is my skirmisher gunslinger that I plotted out. At level 20 she essentially has an attack bonus of 26/21/16/11, including the point blank bonus as you'd always want to be in the pistol's first range increment to ignore armor.

Level 1: Gunslinger, for the free gun and other goodies being a gunslinger gets you. You'll want to choose pistol as that loads the fastest, especially with alchemical cartridges, though you could probably do a musket man version as well, provided you stay within 30 feet of your target for the skirmish bonus you'll get later.

Level 2: Go with rogue so you can start grinding to the skirmish ability fast.

Level 3: Another rogue, choosing mending with her minor magic rogue talent, allowing you to fix your gun if it breaks.

Level 4: I decided to go with gunslinger here and up the defense a bit.

Level 5: Another rogue level

Level 6: You get scout's charge with this rogue level, which is a bit pointless in the build, but you can use your rogue talent to get the vanish spell with major magic, allowing you to turn invisible twice a day for extra sneak attacks or just to get out of a bad situation.

Level 7: Gunslinger, it's about time you got some deeds added.

Level 8: more rogue, higher sneak attack.

Level 9: two more levels of rogue to go after this, use rogue talent to get weapon training with your chosen firearm.

Level 10: more rogue sneak damage with this one.

Level 11: Finally, the skirmish ability. Now you can move 15 feet each round (it says moving more than ten, so i figured fifteen was safe) and apply sneak attack damage with each shot. If you're using alchemical cartridges, this means that each round you can do 1d8+4d6 damage vs touch ac.

Level 12-20: all the rest I did as gunslinger, mostly to get a decent attack bonus, plus the lightning reload deed making it so I could use regular bullets instead of misfire increasing cartridges.

I'll go over feats in the next post.

[Exelbirth]

Skirmish slinger feats

1: Rapid Reload (chosen weapon) We want to go for rate of fire here people

3: Point Blank; Going to be spending a lot of time close to the enemy, let's make the best of it all.

5: Precise shot; Mostly to compensate for those pesky allies getting in the way

7: Dodge; never hurts to get hit less often

9: Wind Stance; again, let's not get hit. This also works well with the skirmish ability.

11: Improved Critical; better chance of making them seriously hurt

13: Critical Focus; Better chance of landing that better chance

15: Mobility; just another way of making sure they can't hit ya.

17: Staggering Critical; slow them down a bit

19: Stunning Critical; make them stop moving completely, granting you free sneak attacks with a full attack? Why wouldn't you want this? (Mainly if you have a revolver or pepperbox I would assume)

Bonus Feat 1: Deadly Aim; might as well squeeze out as much damage as possible.

Bonus Feat 2: Improved Precise Shot/Extra Grit; Either make sure you hit anyone, or get a few more fancy tricks.

Bonus Feat 3: Signature Deed; I chose this one for the hell of it mostly, and picked Dead Shot so I could do that whenever I felt like it.

Deeds: a lot of the deeds are mostly pointless as they just make you look cool or are very situational.

In the end, the character I chose for this ends up being fairly deadly on paper, an elf that does 1d8+6+1 (point blank) +4d6 sneak attack damage per round, +any other modifiers you get. She has yet to be tested in a game.

[grarrrg]

...(Rogunslinger or Gunslingue)...

What Race did you go with?

I've since updated my Gundolon build to include some Rogue. And have a couple things to suggest.

I would skip Lightning Stance, it only works if you Move twice or withdraw, meaning no shooting that round.
Depending on the terrain you'll be fighting in, Mobility might be a better option. Since you have to move to trigger Skirmish anyway, you may find yourself moving into/through threatened squares.

Might also consider Point Blank Master so you don't provoke AoO's when you shoot next to something.

NOTE: Depending on pending Errata/FAQ's all of the following may or may not be fully legal. Going strictly by RAW it is not, but it makes perfect sense for RAI.
Take the Rogue talent "Grit". You technically need the Firearm Training talent to quality, but all Firearm Training gives you is Exo-Prof-Firearm anyway, which you will have from Gunslinger. Grit-Talent gives you Ameteur Gunslinger Feat and the Deed Feat of your choice. Again, since you have Gunslinger levels (i.e. Grit) already, the Ameteur converts to Extra Grit.
End result is 2 feats for the price of 1 talent.

You can also take more than one Archetype (so long as they don't trade away the same thing). Take Sniper-Rogue (RAW only works with bows/X-bows, RAI it could/should apply to Firearms) to go along with Scout-Rogue, you trade away Trapfinding, but gain reduced penalties on long range shots at level 1, and starting at level 3 an increase on Sneak Attack damage range. Assuming you got the Distance enchantment on your guns (which you did of course) you'll be able to Sneak Attack touch-AC at a range of 40ft.

[Cieyrin]

In case people are all wondering why this isn't progressing very quickly, it's due to financial difficulties on my part and the stressing out that goes with it. The forums are a way I de-stress but writing a handbook, with the analysis and formatting, pushes beyond that, which kinda sucks my will for getting work done on it in a timely manner. Feel free to use the thread for builds and ideas as you have been and I'll get what work I can done on it as I'm able to, time willing.

[grarrrg]

In case people are all wondering why this isn't progressing very quickly, it's due to financial difficulties on my part and the stressing out that goes with it. The forums are a way I de-stress but writing a handbook, with the analysis and formatting, pushes beyond that, which kinda sucks my will for getting work done on it in a timely manner. Feel free to use the thread for builds and ideas as you have been and I'll get what work I can done on it as I'm able to, time willing.

There's a Gunslinger Handbook?

SWEET!

[Exelbirth]

What Race did you go with?

I've since updated my Gundolon build to include some Rogue. And have a couple things to suggest.

I would skip Lightning Stance, it only works if you Move twice or withdraw, meaning no shooting that round.
Depending on the terrain you'll be fighting in, Mobility might be a better option. Since you have to move to trigger Skirmish anyway, you may find yourself moving into/through threatened squares.

Might also consider Point Blank Master so you don't provoke AoO's when you shoot next to something.

NOTE: Depending on pending Errata/FAQ's all of the following may or may not be fully legal. Going strictly by RAW it is not, but it makes perfect sense for RAI.
Take the Rogue talent "Grit". You technically need the Firearm Training talent to quality, but all Firearm Training gives you is Exo-Prof-Firearm anyway, which you will have from Gunslinger. Grit-Talent gives you Ameteur Gunslinger Feat and the Deed Feat of your choice. Again, since you have Gunslinger levels (i.e. Grit) already, the Ameteur converts to Extra Grit.
End result is 2 feats for the price of 1 talent.

You can also take more than one Archetype (so long as they don't trade away the same thing). Take Sniper-Rogue (RAW only works with bows/X-bows, RAI it could/should apply to Firearms) to go along with Scout-Rogue, you trade away Trapfinding, but gain reduced penalties on long range shots at level 1, and starting at level 3 an increase on Sneak Attack damage range. Assuming you got the Distance enchantment on your guns (which you did of course) you'll be able to Sneak Attack touch-AC at a range of 40ft.

I just assumed lightning stance worked the same as wind stance. Mistake on my part, I should always double check these things. Replacing that with mobility.

I thought about point blank master, but after I saw you needed weapon specialization I skipped over it, since you have to be a fighter for it, and I haven't seen anything saying gunslinger levels satisfy fighter requirements.

Personally I think the sniper archetype would fit better if one was using the musket master archetype, which would allow for the 40ft sneak attack range for free, and a higher amount of base damage. Plus, sniper would allow for a 50ft sneak attack range with this build, and with the distance enchantment, you can take full advantage of the wider range. The downside would be firing at a target at ranges 35-50 would be you lose your point blank bonuses, though the loss of that could be considered acceptable.

I mostly ignore extra grit, since a lot of the deeds you can do with this build are either useless, or take up only one grit or none. Since you'll probably be doing the most damage as this character, you'll likely be felling most of the enemies, so grit shouldn't be a problem. The problem with deed feats is you have to qualify for them, and I'm not sure this build meets the requirements of a few of the useful ones.

Oh, and I said at the bottom I used an elf.

[Cieyrin]

I just assumed lightning stance worked the same as wind stance. Mistake on my part, I should always double check these things. Replacing that with mobility.

I thought about point blank master, but after I saw you needed weapon specialization I skipped over it, since you have to be a fighter for it, and I haven't seen anything saying gunslinger levels satisfy fighter requirements.

Since you're going mobility anyways, Deft Shootist fills in Point Blank Master without limiting you to one gun. It's a tier 2 deed in grit cost, so no grit expediture, just have grit to use. Plus, Deft Shootist is both no AoO on both shooting and reload.

Since Gunslingers aren't Fighter variants anymore, I think they lost the 'qualify as fighter' beyond that their bonus feats can be combat feats.

[Exelbirth]

Since you're going mobility anyways, Deft Shootist fills in Point Blank Master without limiting you to one gun. It's a tier 2 deed in grit cost, so no grit expediture, just have grit to use. Plus, Deft Shootist is both no AoO on both shooting and reload.

Since Gunslingers aren't Fighter variants anymore, I think they lost the 'qualify as fighter' beyond that their bonus feats can be combat feats.

It does suck that they lose that, yet they're still kinda built to replace fighter altogether, especially with that ignore armor bonus the guns have. In a way they should automatically qualify for the entire weapon focus tree, since they specialize in firearms.

[grarrrg]

Since you're going mobility anyways, Deft Shootist fills in Point Blank Master without limiting you to one gun. It's a tier 2 deed in grit cost, so no grit expediture, just have grit to use. Plus, Deft Shootist is both no AoO on both shooting and reload.

Wow, how did I miss Deft Shootist? Soooo much better than Point Blank Master. *edit's Gundolon feats*
I'm keeping the Weapon Specialization though. +2 damage on each of 10+ weapons is too good to pass up.


Oh, and I said at the bottom I used an elf.

If I may, why an Elf? Flavor?
Half-Elf or Human would both be more optimal choices.

Half-Elf would let you have both Rogue and Gunslinger as Favored Classes, and you could trade in the poor Skill Focus for a +2 Will save.

Human can effectively have the same Stat bonus without the penalties (put +Any in Dex, and their +1 skill point is almost the same as +2 Int), and any bonus feat of your choice.

[Cieyrin]

Wow, how did I miss Deft Shootist? Soooo much better than Point Blank Master. *edit's Gundolon feats*

Because I suck and haven't written up the feat section to the Handbook? :smalltongue:

[Exelbirth]

If I may, why an Elf? Flavor?
Half-Elf or Human would both be more optimal choices.

Half-Elf would let you have both Rogue and Gunslinger as Favored Classes, and you could trade in the poor Skill Focus for a +2 Will save.

Human can effectively have the same Stat bonus without the penalties (put +Any in Dex, and their +1 skill point is almost the same as +2 Int), and any bonus feat of your choice.

I actually forgot to write down which race, and looking at it again, I believe I did choose half-elf.

[Chibbell]

Submission for the Builds section. (feel free to edit down for space)
I would like if someone could check my math (accuracy/damage per shot/etc...)


I was running the Gundolon (I like the name btw) by my group and they seemed quite offended. I believe the term "rules raping" was used. (apologies if that term offends - new to the boards - feel free to slap me for it)

Here are the two big issues:


When you summon the eidolon, you use its base attack. Not add to your own. You would have a BAB of 8 with a level 10 eidolon. It replaces the character's BAB, including those gained from classes.
You don't get that many attacks. You only get as many attacks as the eidolon gets, which maxes at 5 at level 10.


What do you think?

[Cieyrin]

I was running the Gundolon (I like the name btw) by my group and they seemed quite offended. I believe the term "rules raping" was used. (apologies if that term offends - new to the boards - feel free to slap me for it)

Here are the two big issues:


When you summon the eidolon, you use its base attack. Not add to your own. You would have a BAB of 8 with a level 10 eidolon.
You don't get that many attacks. You only get as many attacks as the eidolon gets, which maxes at 5 at level 10.


What do you think? I think the 17 BAB is correct. Mostly I'm curious about how to get all those attacks at that bonus. :)

From my understanding of Synthesists (which seems to be an enbattled field of study atm), the current ruling on bound synthesists is that the Eidilon's BAB stacks with other classes they have. As for the number of attacks limits, that's natural attacks, not manufactured like the Gundolon is. Again, I can't say I'm not on the up-and-up on the current state of Synthesists, since FAQs and unofficial errata are flying around fast these days, but that's my understanding on at least those 2 points.

A final note, as your play group definitely showcases, not all builds are for all groups, since we all play at different levels of optimization and house rules. If your group doesn't want it, the rules aren't going to change their minds on it. Play what's fun for the group, as that's ultimately what matters in the end. :smallsmile:

[grarrrg]

I was running the Gundolon (I like the name btw) by my group and they seemed quite offended. I believe the term "rules raping" was used. (apologies if that term offends - new to the boards - feel free to slap me for it)

Here are the two big issues:


When you summon the eidolon, you use its base attack. Not add to your own. You would have a BAB of 8 with a level 10 eidolon. It replaces the character's BAB, including those gained from classes.
You don't get that many attacks. You only get as many attacks as the eidolon gets, which maxes at 5 at level 10.


What do you think?

I agree that the build is fairly silly, and is designed to abuse the wazoo out of Leaping Shot Deed.

With regards to Point 1: That is retarded. Normal Summoner is already a non-dip class, you lose too much to dip away/don't get enough dipping into.
Synthesist gave it a fighting chance of being a Dippable class, to rule that the Eidolon Bab replaces ALL of your Bab is just nonsense. Your group might as well just say that a Fighter 5/Paladin 5/Ranger 5 doesn't have any iterative attacks, just 1 at +15 (or even only +5 bab).

Regarding Point 2: the Max attack limit applies to Natural weapons only.
PFSRD link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons) (bolding added for emphasis)

Max. Attacks

This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.

[Chibbell]

As silly as it is I still love the idea of this build. :)

Just to be clear, the Rules as Written are clear that a Synthesist USES the Eidolon's BAB. What's unclear is how this stacks with other sources of BAB. I would love to see a ruling from Paizo on this. I personally believe it should stack. (edit: Maybe we could use the wild-shaped druid as a point of ref? I'll have to look into that)

There are other problems though.

When you add limbs and put weapons in those hands, the weapons aren't natural attacks. At best they are secondary, off-hand attacks. They aren't natural attacks so they don't benefit from Multi-Attack at Synth 9.

The kicker here is that they are most likely considered Off-Hand attacks since they are weapon-based.

So at best, the 12 attacks from pistols will all be at a -10.

If you could get Multi-Weapon Fighting then you could reduce it to -6. You'd need a way to get an extra arm on the Summoner though, as he would have to qualify for the feat, or find some way to give that Feat to the Eidolon, which I don't think is possible.

[Chibbell]

Pretend what I said didn't happen. I think my previous post is right.

[Cieyrin]

As silly as it is I still love the idea of this build. :)

Just to be clear, the Rules as Written are clear that a Synthesist USES the Eidolon's BAB. What's unclear is how this stacks with other sources of BAB. I would love to see a ruling from Paizo on this. I personally believe it should stack. (edit: Maybe we could use the wild-shaped druid as a point of ref? I'll have to look into that)

There are other problems though.

When you add limbs and put weapons in those hands, the weapons aren't natural attacks. At best they are secondary, off-hand attacks. They aren't natural attacks so they don't benefit from Multi-Attack at Synth 9.

The kicker here is that they are most likely considered Off-Hand attacks since they are weapon-based.

So at best, the 12 attacks from pistols will all be at a -10.

If you could get Multi-Weapon Fighting then you could reduce it to -6. You'd need a way to get an extra arm on the Summoner though, as he would have to qualify for the feat, or find some way to give that Feat to the Eidolon, which I don't think is possible.

I think you're missing something, in that we don't need Multiweapon Fighting to make this work properly, Leaping Shot lets you make an attack with each weapon held at full BAB during the move. There's no interaction with multiweapon rules anywhere in how Gundolon is meant to be used. Yes, RAW is weird in this particular instance, as you're otherwise a pisspoor shot if you just stand there and shoot instead of run and gun but them's the breaks.

As for the Eidolon/Synthesist BAB issue, the common consensus from what I heard of the Paizo boards, if the many Synthesist threads over here are any indication, seems to be that Eidolon BAB stacks with other class BABs when fused. Also, BAB only provides extra attacks with manufactured weapons, which is what the Gundolon is doing, as opposed to natural weapons that most Eidolons typically use and would not get extra attacks out of from BAB. Either way, since Gundolon uses Leaping Shot to pull off his craziness, extra attacks from BAB doesn't come into it at any point.

[Chibbell]

Ahah. I was totally missing the point. And holy **** that is crazy. Crazy AWESOME! :)

So are you saying if you stand there and fire you get extra attacks (+6/+1 route, minus penalties) or that you get none since that's meant for nat. attacks?

[Cieyrin]

So are you saying if you stand there and fire you get extra attacks (+6/+1 route, minus penalties) or that you get none since that's meant for nat. attacks?

I'm saying normal multiweapon rules apply when you don't use Leaping Shot, with all the aforementioned penalties for not having any of the Multiweapon Fighting chain and so forth. The Eidolon's Natural Attack Limit has no bearing on manufactured weapon attacks, since it only affects the number of natural weapons you have. If you check the Summoner's Handbook, which I make mention of in the beginning of the thread, one of the sample builds, Kali, works specifically with that by getting a bunch of manufactured weapons and as many arms as can be afforded to be a Death by a Thousand Cuts type build. The Gundolon takes the multiple arms and uses it in a different way but hinging on the same bit that manufactured weapons aren't limited by the NAL.

[Chibbell]

Thanks and sorry for my confusion. I get really lost when it comes to MWF and the like.

I'll check out that thread. I'm still a little confused about how one might use manufactured and natural attacks together and how the manufactured attacks affect the attack bonus of natural attacks (if at all).

Thanks again for taking the time to explain it. :)

[Exelbirth]

Alright, I'm a serious rule nazi and have been double checking every disputed rule I've heard of in my D&D experiences. I looked at the synthesist archetype last night because I mentioned the gundolon to my dm, and he said that build didn't matter because he was outright banning the synthesist class for being OP.

I checked the synthesist, and saw what the problem was. He had read it wrong for the ability score part, mistaking USES for GAINS. The way it's read, you can replace each instance of the word USES with REPLACES and replace GAINS with ADDS.

This means, the synthesist REPLACES his physical ability scores, and REPLACES his base attack bonus with those of the eidolon's. So you don't get to have an amazingly high attack bonus, I'm sorry to say.

As for the leaping shot, it says highest BAB, not full BAB, and your highest base attack bonus for fighting with two weapons (since this is the rule that'd apply for using all those guns) is still going to be at a -4 penalty for the main ones, and all the off handed ones are going to sit with a -8 penalty. These are determined before you make your leaping shot, so you'll still have penalties during the attack. I'd say the best you can hope for is that you're allowed to make all the attacks with the -4 penalty.

[Prime32]

This means, the synthesist REPLACES his physical ability scores, and REPLACES his base attack bonus with those of the eidolon's. So you don't get to have an amazingly high attack bonus, I'm sorry to say.However, the designers have stated that replacing your BAB only affects the class that does it (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy88yj/faq#v5748eaic9naz), even if the ability doesn't say that.

[Exelbirth]

However, the designers have stated that replacing your BAB only affects the class that does it (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy88yj/faq#v5748eaic9naz), even if the ability doesn't say that.

I had forgotten to say that it replaces the summoner's only, my bad. Either way, you don't get it as a bonus.

[Cieyrin]

As for the leaping shot, it says highest BAB, not full BAB, and your highest base attack bonus for fighting with two weapons (since this is the rule that'd apply for using all those guns) is still going to be at a -4 penalty for the main ones, and all the off handed ones are going to sit with a -8 penalty. These are determined before you make your leaping shot, so you'll still have penalties during the attack. I'd say the best you can hope for is that you're allowed to make all the attacks with the -4 penalty.

I would think they would reference such rules if they were in effect, honestly. Though, there isn't standard language for that, either, as Rapid Shot doesn't even specify what BAB you use, among other such abilities that talk about such.
Even if what you claim is so, you're still hitting touch AC with a Full BAB, High Dex chassis. I don't think there should be much trouble in making your enemies feel your sting.

[Exelbirth]

Oh yeah, there's no question you're going to make things hurt with this build, I'm just pointing out it's a little less powerful than written.

[grarrrg]

Yeah, we'll probably have to take a feat off the Gundolon, bump the Dex to 15 and throw on Two/Multi-weapon fighting.
For those of you worried if we qualify, the rules on Multi says "Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms."
So we take Two-Weapon on our Summoner, and if we happen to spontaneously sprout arms at some point *cough* Eidolon *cough*, then it effectively becomes Multi-Weapon.
We are still targeting Touch-AC so a drop in to-hit isn't a major loss.


We can also go to "Plan B" on the Gundolon Route. You get a major drop in power, but it is MUCH more rules friendly.

Remove ALL Summoner levels from the Gundolon build, it is no longer a Gundolon.
Add at least 4 levels of Alchemist to the build, it is now an Algunist.

An Alchemist can gain up to 3 additional limbs as Discoveries (2 arms, 1 tentacle).

The Good: Alchemist has the same Bab/hp, more skill points, and a similar 'spell' progression compared to a Summoner.
Mutagen can give you a Dex boost (at the expense of Wisdom, but we are still using Mysterious Stranger for Cha to Grit, and the UMD bonus)

The Bad: Has many less arms than the Gundolon.
Cannot purposely dump/ignore physical stats.
Wants 2 decent Mental stats (Int and Wis-or-Cha).
Bad Will save.

The Vivisectionist Archetype loses Bomb, but let's Alchemist levels stack with Rogue for Sneak Attack progression. (Chirurgeon can be taken with Vivisectionist, lose Poison-Use, gain better/more healing abilities)
Can also take the Explosive Missile discovery (instead of Vivisectionist) to add Bomb damage to any one shot (a decent followup to a Leaping Shot round).
And you can gain Wings as a Discovery, so Flight is still an option.

2 new spells/extracts of note are
Longshot: Level 1 Extract, Standard to 'cast', but for minutes/level your Range increment is +10
Burst of Speed: Level 3 Extract, Swift to 'cast', until end of round your speed is +20ft. and you do not provoke AoO's when moving.

(Note: The Vestigial Arm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/vestigial-arm-ex) discovery specifically calls out Two-Weapon Fighting and NOT Multi. I am unsure how intended this was)

[Darkomn]

Just as a note you might want to add a warning that the capacity rating of 2 on the double hackbut is almost certainly a typo. Under reloading it says that capacity of early guns is equal to barrels and under the weapon description (and if you google "double hackbut") it says that the "double" refers to barrel length.

[Exelbirth]

It's likely that the people at Paizo assumed it had two barrels at one point.

[Starbuck_II]

Just as a note you might want to add a warning that the capacity rating of 2 on the double hackbut is almost certainly a typo. Under reloading it says that capacity of early guns is equal to barrels and under the weapon description (and if you google "double hackbut") it says that the "double" refers to barrel length.

You should ask at the Pathfinder forums if it is a typo. Maybe they will errata or FAQ it. For now, it has the ability to shoot twice before reloading.

[deuxhero]

For the feats section, I've heard the suggestion the Vital Strike line has value for ranged combatants as they can ready it against casting (its a standard action). Should be worth adding to the feat's note when you get the section up.

[Cieyrin]

For the feats section, I've heard the suggestion the Vital Strike line has value for ranged combatants as they can ready it against casting (its a standard action). Should be worth adding to the feat's note when you get the section up.

I was planning to make mention of the chain, though it's not as necessary as it used to be due to Dead Shot emulating it. Still a nice backup if you're low on grit or pursuing a cannon build, which from what I can fathom, doesn't play well with siege weaponry needing time to aim, sucking up actions like its going out of fashion.

[Cieyrin]

Abilities and Core Races is up. I'll get to Bestiary and Psionic Races soon, though I may get started on the next section before then.

[grarrrg]

*raids pre-compiled "master race list" for pf*
*edits down to ONLY the races with +Dex and +Wis-OR-Cha)


Monster Races
Dhampir: +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Cha, Medium (Dhampir)
Drow: +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Cha, Medium (Elf)
Drow Noble: +4 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, Medium
Fetchling: +2 Dex, -2 Wis, +2 Cha, Medium Outsider (Native)
Goblin: -2 Str, +4 Dex, -2 Cha, Small (30ft.) (Goblinoid)
Grippli: -2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, Small (30ft. w/Climb 20ft.) (Grippli)
Ifrit: +2 Dex, -2 Wis, +2 Cha, Medium Outsider (Native)
Merfolk: +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Cha, Medium (5ft. w/Swim 50ft.) (Aquatic)
Svirfneblin: -2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Wis -4 Cha, Small (Gnome)
Tengu: +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Wis, Medium (Tengu)
Undine: -2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, Medium (w/Swim 30ft.) Outsider (Native)

Races from Psionics Unleashed
Dromite: -2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Cha, Small (Insectoid)
Ophiduan: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha, Medium (Reptilian)
Xeph: -2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Cha, Medium (Xeph)

3rd Party Races
High Goblin: -2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha, Small (30ft.) (Goblinoid), Player Races: High Goblins PDF


WOW that's a lot of them.
Drow Noble should not be allowed at +0 CR, it's too good.
Goblin I kept in (despite the poor mentals) because it has +4 Dex.

[Cieyrin]

Goblins are gonna have special mention, in that their currently the only race that has a Favored Class option specifically for Gunslingers and it's actually a nice one.

[KnightDisciple]

So. I'm looking to be playing in the Seven Swords of Sin Pathfinder Game Module here soonish (alongside our group's more regular gaming). With 5 players, I've decided to be "5th Wheel" and, in this case, play a Gunslinger.

Important facts:
7th Level
DM has stated we're going with "Emerging Firearms", so I'm basically limited to Muskets, Pistols, etc.
My rolled stats are: 17, 16, 16, 15, 15, 13 (monk stats if I felt like it :smalltongue:).
Standard Wealth By Level.

So. Advice?

I'm currently thinking a Musket Master, using Paper Cartridges to get Free Action reloads.

As for stats:
17 for Dex.
16 for...Hm. Part of me wants to say Con, but probably the Grit Stat that I end up with.
16 for Int, so I can leave it alone and have an even # to get at least 6 skill points a level (maybe 7 if I go human)
15 for Con or Grit Stat
15 for the last Mental
13 for Strength.

Human looks nice for the free-floating +2, extra feat, and extra skill (I plan to try milking Daring Feat for all I can). But other races might work here.

I'm wondering if combining Musket Master and Mysterious Stranger would be worthwhile; it'd only be 2 potential Grit usage Deeds by level 7, really, so not too bad. The one thing that hurts is the loss of Quick Clear.

Part of my thinking for Musket Master is that I can't really do a quick barrage of a bunch of bullets anyways, so I might as well go for a "sniper" (probably using a +1 Reliable Musket).

[grarrrg]

Important facts:
7th Level
DM has stated we're going with "Emerging Firearms", so I'm basically limited to Muskets, Pistols, etc.
My rolled stats are: 17, 16, 16, 15, 15, 13 (monk stats if I felt like it :smalltongue:).
I'm currently thinking a Musket Master, using Paper Cartridges to get Free Action reloads.

I'm wondering if combining Musket Master and Mysterious Stranger would be worthwhile; it'd only be 2 potential Grit usage Deeds by level 7, really, so not too bad. The one thing that hurts is the loss of Quick Clear.

First off, Musket Master and Mysterious Stranger cannot be taken together, they both trade away Gun Training. Also, since you are starting at level 7, I would advise against Mysterious Stranger anyway. Dex-to-damage is automatic, Cha-to-damage requires a swift action and Grit each turn. The main advantage to Myst-Stranger is that the bonus damage comes at level 1 instead of level 5, making it better for dips.

For stats I'd go
Dex 17> Wis 16> Con 16> Str 15> Int 15> Cha 13
You have 1 bonus stat point from level 4 and another one coming at level 8, put the first one into Dex (duh), the second can either be used to round off your Str or Int (PF chars CAN gain retroactive skill points!).

For Race, Human, Dwarf or Elf would all be good choices. Human is all upside, but only 1 stat bonus. Dwarf has all good stat bonuses, but a move speed of only 20ft. Elf would normally be worse off, but with your rolls you can absorb the Con hit easy enough.

And your suggestion of Monk is not entirely a bad suggestion.
http://www.projectbag.com/cowboy_bebop/pics/misc/session5/pierrot_spike01.jpg
Given your stats, a 2 level dip into Monk would give you a good "Plan B"-Melee option, and Evasion (high Ref save + high Dex = Evasion-Awesomeness).
Your 2 best stats will be Dex and Wis, with a Monk's Wis-to-AC you'll have a HUGE AC bonus (no armor though). For one of your bonus feats take Combat Reflexes, this combined with your improved Unarmed damage (use your feet), means you can still get AoO's on enemies nearby.
For your 2nd Monk feat, you might as well take Dodge, because there isn't anything else that would help a Gunslinger much.
Take the Sohei (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/sohei)archetype Monk, then you will always get to act in a Surprise round, and you don't lose anything important anyway.

[KnightDisciple]

Ah. Forgot the gun training part. So, yeah, Musket Master it is.

Probably Human.

As far as level increase, the "problem" is that these Pathfinder Modules seem to be set up so you don't level up by the end; it's short enough to encompass just a half-dozen fights or so (if the last one I played in is any indication), so XP won't be enough to level. Hence my thinking on putting a 16 in Int.

I don't think I'd do a Monk dip, though. While the number-crunching might be nice, I'm weird and like to try and stick to 1 single class. I figure there's enough good stuff in Gunslinger to justify 7 levels of it. So going from that, what feats might be good?

[grarrrg]

As far as level increase, the "problem" is that these Pathfinder Modules seem to be set up so you don't level up by the end......good stuff in Gunslinger to justify 7 levels of it. So going from that, what feats might be good?

Stuck at level 7 understandable.
Feats? Let's see, 1 from being Human, 4 from levels, and 1 from Gunslinger. 6 total, not a lot to work with. (I'm just listing the better ones from my Gundolon build, I didn't do additional research, so I might have missed a good one)

Rapid Reload is a must have, you don't want to be wasting a move action (or worse) to reload.
Point-Blank Shot is a quick bonus (better than Weapon Focus anyway).
Precise Shot might be good depending on the rest of your party.
Deadly Aim will be -2 to-hit +4 damage, and the to-hit doesn't matter much cause you're aiming at Touch AC.
Deft Shootist Deed let's you not provoke AoO's when shooting or reloading.
Improved Critical because Keen is not an option on firearms, and doubles your chance of regaining Grit

Well, that's 6 feats, feel free to find something better though.

[Cieyrin]

Stuck at level 7 understandable.
Feats? Let's see, 1 from being Human, 4 from levels, and 1 from Gunslinger. 6 total, not a lot to work with. (I'm just listing the better ones from my Gundolon build, I didn't do additional research, so I might have missed a good one)

Rapid Reload is a must have, you don't want to be wasting a move action (or worse) to reload.
Point-Blank Shot is a quick bonus (better than Weapon Focus anyway).
Precise Shot might be good depending on the rest of your party.
Deadly Aim will be -2 to-hit +4 damage, and the to-hit doesn't matter much cause you're aiming at Touch AC.
Deft Shootist Deed let's you not provoke AoO's when shooting or reloading.
Improved Critical because Keen is not an option on firearms, and doubles your chance of regaining Grit

Well, that's 6 feats, feel free to find something better though.

Gunslinger 7 isn't a bad level, Dead Shot and Targeting go online at that level, which drastically raises your damage and versatility. Mysterious Stranger isn't a bad thing choice, due to Focused Aim, unlike every other damage bonus, gets multiplied during a Dead Shot, so it's not a bad deal.

Going Musket Master, there's a problem with half the feats recommended, in that Musket Master grants Rapid Reload for free, so you don't have to take it with your normal feat. Deft Shootist requires Dodge and Mobility to take, so that requires a bit more investment. Improved Critical, while an excellent feat, requires BAB +8, so you can't take it till next level, when you get your next bonus Gunslinger feat. Precise Shot isn't as necessary, since -4 on a touch attack isn't that big a deal, but it can still be a good choice to not have to worry about it, plus, since you have a good Int, you may consider it to pick up Focused Shot, since it should work with firearms. A feat chain to consider is Snap Shot, at least up to Improved, since you'll be close by in any case and an AoO from you is likely to take a chunk out of somebody.

My recommendation for a feat progression is:
{table=head]Level|Feat Gained
1st|Point Blank Shot
Human (1st)|Deadly Aim
Gunslinger (1st)|Rapid Reload (Musket)
Gunslinger (1st)|Gunsmithing
3rd|Rapid Shot
Gunslinger (4th)|Blind-Fight
5th|Ricochet Shot Deed
7th|Hammer the Gap[/table]

Blind-Fight and Ricochet Shot is dependent on how much cover you have to deal with, since Cover can provide a definite edge against gun shots, so having a way to deal with it can be useful. You could switch in Precise Shot and Extra Grit fairly easily.

Alternatively, you could pursue Point Blank Shot, Dodge, Mobility, Deft Shootist, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Musket) and pick up Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes in the next levels, which can make you a meleer with a gun and good battlefield control once Improved Snap Shot is picked up. Taking 2 levels of Fighter or Monk can help make getting the chain work out easier.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Exelbirth]

Wow, my DM would never allow stats like that. He's got a rule that the total modifier should be between 7 and 9, though he discourages 9, claiming it's a bit over powered (compared to what we've been fighting in the last two campaigns he's run, I feel extremely under powered really.)

Now that he's switching to pathfinder though, he has everyone use the 20 point buy system.

[KnightDisciple]

Wow, my DM would never allow stats like that. He's got a rule that the total modifier should be between 7 and 9, though he discourages 9, claiming it's a bit over powered (compared to what we've been fighting in the last two campaigns he's run, I feel extremely under powered really.)

Now that he's switching to pathfinder though, he has everyone use the 20 point buy system.Our DM is letting us use the method we came up with: Roll 5d4. But you don't drop anything.

For what it's worth, that method got me 1 set that was nothing but 12 and 13. The other was a couple 11s, a couple 10s, a 13, and a 14 (or so).

This was just a really lucky set. :smallsmile:

Probably going to end up grabbing Quick Draw just because of of Gunslinger's Initiative. As well as Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim. Probably Hammer the Gap. And something else. Part of me wants Weapon Finesse for those "oh crap" moments, but eh. Actually, Extra Grit, probably. We'll see.

[Cieyrin]

Probably going to end up grabbing Quick Draw just because of of Gunslinger's Initiative. As well as Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim. Probably Hammer the Gap. And something else. Part of me wants Weapon Finesse for those "oh crap" moments, but eh. Actually, Extra Grit, probably. We'll see.

I wouldn't worry about Weapon Finesse if you reload fast enough or pursue Deft Shooter, as even without the deed, most of the time you should be able to 5' and shoot people in the face or just use Pistol-Whip and get out of there.

[KnightDisciple]

I wouldn't worry about Weapon Finesse if you reload fast enough or pursue Deft Shooter, as even without the deed, most of the time you should be able to 5' and shoot people in the face or just use Pistol-Whip and get out of there.

I ended up getting Weapon Focus and Extra Grit.

I will state again this is basically a "one-shot" character. He'll never go beyond level 7.

On the plus side, he's got a +15 on his first attack with that musket of his. :smallbiggrin:

[grarrrg]

(links to Gundolon v1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11748177#post11748177), Gundolon v1.3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12152413#post12152413))

Due to the (potential) rules issues with the Gundolon build, here is presented another option. Same basic premise, less raw damage, MUCH more rules friendly (but still iffy in certain areas).

The Algunist (taking requests for a Punnier name)
http://www.horrorstew.com/images/sixshooterPM005.jpg
Kind of like this, but with one less arm.
Oh, and one of the arms is a tentacle.
The following build is based around the "Leaping Shot Deed" feat, it is presented as a level 20 build, although it can begin making use of its trick around levels 6 - 8. If starting at a low level, it is greatly recommended to rearrange levels/feats to make it more playable at low levels.

Presented is the 'standard' build. You can also take the Mysterious Stranger archetype and make it Cha based instead.

The core of the build is Alchemist 4, Gunslinger 5, from there your options are wide open. You can go 'Slinger 16/Alch 4 (19 bab), or 'Slinger 5/Alch 15 (16 bab). Or anywhere in between, a dip in Fighter is highly encouraged for the feats though.

Race: There is no clear winner, Human gets a Feat, Half-Elf can have 2 favored classes, Dwarf/Elf both have relevant stat bonuses, Halfling is good if going Mysterious Stranger. Only Half-Orc and Gnome are poor choices.
For sake of argument, I will be using Half-Elf, trading 'Adaptibility' for +2 Will saves.
Classes:
Gunslinger 5 (straight or Pistolero)
Fighter 3 (Weapon Master)
Alchemist 10
Rogue 2
Sample 15-point buy: (feel free to tweak)
Str 8
Dex 21 (15 base, +2 race, +4 levels)
Con 10
Int 14
Wis 16 (15 base, +1 levels)
Cha 8
This is the second reason why the Gundolon is the preferred option. We need High Dex/Wis, enough Int for Alchemist Extracts, some Con for HP, Cha can be useful if we want to UMD some wands (there are some nice spells we don't have, like Reloading Hands). Str is the only stat we want to slack on.
8d10+12d8 HD (avg 98)
Bab 16 (17 if using Fractional)
Fort/Ref saves will be good. Will is poor.
Gunslinger 5 gives Gun Prof., a Grit pool, various Deeds, a Bonus feat, and Dex to Damage
Fighter 3 (Weapon Master) gives 2 bonus feats, and +1 att/damage with chosen weapon (weapon training at level 3 instead of armor training)
Alchemist 10 gives 5 Discoveries, 3 will be spent on extra Arms/Tentacle, the other 2 are optional, I like Explosive Missile as a nice 'plan B', and Wings are usually handy.
Rogue 2 +1d6 Sneak attack, Evasion, a Rogue Talent, and Trapfinding. Our Talent will either be "Stand Up", so we can stand up from Prone as a Free Action (Leaping Shot leaves us prone), Or, "Grit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/grit-ex)" to gain Extra Grit AND a Grit Deed as bonus feats (RAW this won't work with pre-existing levels of Gunslinger, but RAI it makes sense).

Feats: 13 (+2 if "Grit" Rogue talent is allowed) (10 levels, 1 Gunslinger, 2 Fighter) these are listed in no particular order, they are only labeled so I can count/sort them better. Any weapon specific feats are assumed to be for Firearm-Pistol. (most feats are just a guideline, only the feats up through level 5 are necessary)
1 Rapid Reload
3 Dodge
4 Mobility (G)
5 Leaping Shot Deed
5 Point-Blank Shot (F)
6 Quick-Draw (F)
7 Multi-Weapon Fighting (there is some debate whether you need this for Leaping Shot deed, or whether Leaping Shot overrides the penalties, ALSO there is some debate on whether a Pistol is a light weapon or not, entitling you to the lesser penalty)
9 Deadly Aim
11 Precise Shot
13 Deft Shootist Deed
15 Weapon Focus
17 Improved Critical (Keen is not an option on firearms)
19 Improved Initiative
If "Grit" Rogue talent is allowed, then add Extra Grit and any one other feat (Grit-Talent feat would be Leaping Shot Deed, freeing up a normal feat slot)
Secret Stash deed might be handy, as you can pay Grit/Gold to "find" a bullet hidden on yourself (this CAN be an enchanted bullet, but you only get 1-shot per Grit)

The Algunist has 5 arms total, each holding a pistol. 1 or 2 of your pistols are your "main weapon(s)" and will be pimped out, 1 of your Pistols will be the 'dud', only useful for the first Leaping Shot and then put away so that the hand is freed up for reloading, remaining pistols will probably have minimal upgrades based on what you can afford (probably +1, and a variety of specialty/limited use enchantments, like Bane, or Axiomatic). Distance is recommended for all.

Leaping Shot lets you spend a Grit to move your full distance, and attack with all of your firearms, at any point during the move, at your full Bab.
Adding that all together (assuming all pistols are only +1):
5 attacks, each with...
To-hit: (16 bab, +5dex, +1weapon, 1wep-focus, 1Fight3, -5deadly aim, -2?multi-weapon, +1 Point-Blank)
Damage: (1d8+1weapon, +10deadly aim, +5dex, +1Fight3, +1 Point-Blank) add 1d6 for possible Sneak Attack.
Most will hit, and there is a good chance of one of those being a Critical for x4 damage that will regain a Grit point.
If all of them hit, with 1 Critical, you will be doing around 115 damage in the first round of combat. (somebody double check please). Closer to 130 w/ Sneak Attack.

Round 2 of combat will be trickier, as you will need to reload 4 guns. Unless you have Double Barreled Pistols, then Round 2 is the same as Round 1, and Round 3 is reload time.
If Revolvers/Cartridges are allowed, I highly urge you to make use of them.

Alternate options: Drop a level of Alchemist and pick up a level of Fighter, you lose a Discovery and 4th level Extract, but can pick up Weapon Specialization.
OR Drop some levels of ?Alchemist? and pick up levels of Rogue for more talents and Sneak Attack.

As always, suggestions/corrections/criticisms are encouraged.

[Exelbirth]

That is one freaky looking gunslinger.

[grarrrg]

That is one freaky looking gunslinger.

It's "Six Shooter" (get it???) from the Puppet Master film series (horror).
And it's one of the few images of a multi-armed gunslinger I could find.

[grarrrg]

I have some free time, and Cieyrin seems to be behind on his handbook schedule, so I figured I'd attempt to help out.
(To Cieyrin: feel free to use/edit what you want)

Multiclassing/Prestige

The Gunslinger is a fairly front-loaded class. This makes it easy/less painful to dip into or out of it.

Gunslinger breakpoints (when it's good to get out)
Gunslinger leveling goes in a circle. Excluding the first level it follows this pattern:

Gun Training > Nimble > Deeds > Bonus Feat > *repeat*

The easy stopping points are every multiple of 4. This is because Gun Training bonuses after the first tend to be poor, and Nimble is already a minor bonus. And if you've gone far enough to gain more Deeds you may as well take that extra level for the Bonus Feat.

Level 1: Level 1 is VERY frontloaded. You get choice of Firearm, Gunsmithing Feat, a Grit pool, and a small selection of deeds. Extra bonus for Musket Master who gains Rapid Reload for free, and Mysterious Stranger who gets their Cha-to-Damage at this level (they don't get Dex-to-Damage).

Level 5: This is the level where the Gunslinger gains Dex-to-Damage, which is the BIG bonus, this is where most 'Slinger dippers will stop. (unless you're a Mysterious Stranger, their natural Dip-Stop is the Feat at Level 4)

Level 8: Nothing fancy here, gained some Deeds last level, got a feat this level.

Level 11/12/13: This one's a little fuzzier. Level 11 is important because it gives you access to the Signature Deed feat, which lets you reduce Grit costs of Deeds. Level 12 is just a Bonus Feat. Level 13 is where Musket Masters and Pistoleros get the ability to ignore all misfires with their chosen weapon.

Level 16: Similar to level 8, nothing fancy.

Level 20: True Grit is basically a double helping of Signature Deed, kicked up a notch. You can apply it to a 'need 1 Grit' deed to make it a 'use whenever you want, even if you don't have Grit' deed. And you can pick TWO deeds to apply it to. Oh, you also get a Bonus Feat.


Good Dips/Class Pairs
There are 4 types of Dips covered here.
General: Classes that can generally help any Gunslinger.
Wisdom: Gunslingers have good Wisdom, might as well make use of it for more than just Grit.
Charisma: Mysterious Strangers only, same idea as Wisdom section.
Other: Other options that don't have great stat synergy, but may be useful.

General:

Cavalier: The Luring Cavalier archetype lets you target Touch AC up to 2 range increments away at level 3.
Fighter: Feats. You want them, it has them. Can take the 'Weapon Master' archetype and get Weapon Training at level 3 (+1 attack, +1 damage with chosen weapon). Also, Gun Tank Armor Training stacks with Fighter Armor Training (Note: 'Weapon Master' Fighter does NOT get Armor Training).

Ranger: Trophy Hunter Archetype, at level 2 you get the Amateur Gunslinger feat (trade it in for the +2 Grit), and the use of any 1st level Gunslinger deed.
"But I already have the first level deeds, I multi-classed, remember?"
Yes, but there are Archetypes that trade away 1st level deeds and get NEW 1st level deeds. Very handy for a Mysterious Stranger to regain the use of Quick Clear.

Rogue: Sneak Attack, Talents, and Evasion. Take the 'Sniper' archetype, and starting at level 3 your Sneak Attack Range is increased. And/Or take the 'Scout' archetype and starting at level 8 you can have guaranteed Sneak Attack damage (once per round, only if you move more than 10ft.).

Wisdom:

Cleric/Druid/Inquisitor: Spellcasting and Domains. A little Spellcasting can always come in handy, and you can pick helpful Domains. Travel is a good one for +10ft. movement, Protection is also nice for +1 all saves. There are plenty of decent options.

Monk: Monk? Yes. Monk. Monk is a quick and dirty way to gain a decent 'Plan B' melee option without resorting to double weapons like the 'Pistol, Dagger'. There is actually a fair amount of synergy here, with 2 levels you gain 2 bonus feats, Evasion, Improved Unarmed damage, and Wis-to-AC (no armor).
Suggest taking Combat Reflexes to make better use of your Dex. If you go to Monk 4 you gain a Ki Pool (based on Wis) that can be used for a variety of abilities. And there are plenty of Archetypes that can compliment a 'Gun-Fu' build.

Charisma:

Oracle/Sorcerer/Bard: Spellcasting. Similar to the Cleric/Druid option, pick up some useful spellcasting.

Ninja: Similar to Rogue, but you gain a Cha-based Ki Pool instead of Evasion.

(Anti)Paladin: Cha-to-Saves is the big draw here. Take the Holy Gun archetype, the free Ameteur Gunslinger feat is instantly converted to Extra Grit when you have levels of Gunslinger. And you lose Smite Evil for a Deed that gives Paladin Level + Cha to damage against Evil targets, AND it lets you bypass all DR on the target (evil target or not).

Other:

Wizard: Take the Spellslinger archetype. Go to town.

Alchemist: At level 4 you can take the Explosive Missle discovery. This discovery lets you add your Bomb damage to an attack. Also has Extracts (spells). You can also use Discoveries to grow extra arms. 1 extra arm lets you wield 2 pistols while keeping a hand free for reloading.


Prestige

There are currently no Prestige classes that specifically benefit a Gunslinger/Firearm type class. Some options are the 'combining' prestige classes, like Eldritch Knight or Holy Vindicator (Full Bab + Casting). There are no great choices, but there are plenty of options that might suit your particular build.

Psionic Multi/Prestige-Classes(3rd party)

Psychic Warrior: Basically a mix between Fighter and Cleric, you get Bonus Feats and a few Path abilities, with Wis-based Powers and 3/4 bab. Both the Assassin's Path and Weaponmaster's Path offer decent bonuses. While the Assassin Path has a better passive bonus, the Weaponmaster powers are better.

Wilder: Similar to Psychic Warrior, but with Cha-based Powers and no Bonus Feats. Can also gain decent bonuses/abilities with the Surge powers.

Prestige:
Elocator: Some interesting movement abilities, and Spatial Awareness can give nice bonus to to-hit and damage on the first attack each round.

Pyrokineticist: Easy entry (just need a Power Point reserve), grants a variety of Fire-based powers. Notably Fire Resist 10 at level 2, and +2d6 fire damage with a weapon at level 4.

War Mind: Easy entry, d10hd, full Bab, has its own (limited) power progression. (recommend qualify with the Elan race to use the Power Point pool to fuel their Save boosting and damage reduction abilities)

[Cieyrin]

Fine by me and thanks a bunch. Still struggling monetarily in RL, so that kinda takes precedent at the moment. Especially on the multiclassing bit, as I'm not entirely familiar with all the APG classes, anything coming out of Ultimate Magic or keeping track of what Archetypes do what and/or are available. So getting any assistance on that front is well appreciated.

[Exelbirth]

You know, my DM mentioned the lack of prestige classes, and entertained the idea of a modified Arcane Archer to allow gun usage instead of bow.

[grarrrg]

Fine by me and thanks a bunch. Still struggling monetarily in RL, so that kinda takes precedent at the moment. Especially on the multiclassing bit, as I'm not entirely familiar with all the APG classes, anything coming out of Ultimate Magic or keeping track of what Archetypes do what and/or are available. So getting any assistance on that front is well appreciated.

After all the digging around I did trying to optimize the Gundolon (and Algunist), I figured I had a good handle on things.
Still probably missed something though.


You know, my DM mentioned the lack of prestige classes, and entertained the idea of a modified Arcane Archer to allow gun usage instead of bow.

Summoners have no Prestige options as well.
The best option there is to homebrew something along the lines of "if you would gain '+1 level of arcane casting' you can instead have '+1 level for purposes of Eidolon stats/abilities/Evo. points'".

Going strictly by (current) RAW, Gunslingers are boned.
Going by 'reasonable interpretation', most things that work with a CROSSbow should also work with a Firearm.
I specify crossbow, and not bows, because... well, lets do this:

Firearm: Simple point and 'click' interface, easy to fire one-handed.
Crossbow: Simple point and 'click' interface, easy to fire one-handed.
Bow: Both arms must work together to aim and shoot, difficult, if not impossible, to use one-handed.

I can see a re-fluffed Arcane Archer working with Firearms, but as-is it is VERY set on the flavor of bow/arrow.

[Stone Heart]

Love the guide so far, any idea when its gonna be finished?

[Cieyrin]

Love the guide so far, any idea when its gonna be finished?

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm having financial turbulence at the current time that's taking precedence in my order of things that need my attention. I do intend to get back to and finish writing the handbook up when my affairs are in a better order but I'm not sure when that'll be. I may get some time this weekend to write up some more races and skills, though. Feats and traits are bloody huge, even if I'm only covering Core, APG and UC.

I may put up the build section with the current submissions as well, with what graarg has put forth, but no promises on that. My week and worries are reaching a crescendo of chaos and I'll need a break this weekend for dealing with it, which writing for the guide may provide.

[Stone Heart]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm having financial turbulence at the current time that's taking precedence in my order of things that need my attention. I do intend to get back to and finish writing the handbook up when my affairs are in a better order but I'm not sure when that'll be. I may get some time this weekend to write up some more races and skills, though. Feats and traits are bloody huge, even if I'm only covering Core, APG and UC.

I may put up the build section with the current submissions as well, with what graarg has put forth, but no promises on that. My week and worries are reaching a crescendo of chaos and I'll need a break this weekend for dealing with it, which writing for the guide may provide.

Oh, I am sorry, I only skimmed the topic before, I missed that. Good luck and no need to rush.

[Cieyrin]

Oh, I am sorry, I only skimmed the topic before, I missed that. Good luck and no need to rush.

Hey, no problem. You're here for the handbook, no one is obligated to go through all the discussion. I'll see what I can do with the time I have to spare so people have things to read, examine and discuss. :smallsmile:

[grarrrg]

...build section with the current submissions as well, with what graarg has put forth...

Who?:smallconfused:

[Cieyrin]

Who?:smallconfused:

You and your a's and r's :smalltongue:

[grarrrg]

You and your a's and r's :smalltongue:

There is only ONE "a".:smallfurious:

The r's I 'might' let slide from time to time,:smallsigh:

But there is ONLY ONE "a".:smalltongue:

[Laniius]

How are you getting your reload times down to free actions? With Rapid Reload one handed firearms are only a move action to reload.

[Curious]

How are you getting your reload times down to free actions? With Rapid Reload one handed firearms are only a move action to reload.

Catridges. They move the reload time down to free.

[Laniius]

Goblins are gonna have special mention, in that their currently the only race that has a Favored Class option specifically for Gunslingers and it's actually a nice one.

Where is this located? I've always had a soft spot for goblins, and the gunslinger looks interesting.

[Laniius]

Catridges. They move the reload time down to free.

OH! Found it. Thanks. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/alchemical-cartridges for anyone who wants to know.

Edit: When creating a cartridge using the gunsmithing feat, is it possible to add the various kinds of bullets to it, like a silver bullet or pitted bullet? Finally, is a gunslinger considered to know all of the deeds (aside from the ones that are replaced via archetypes) or do you have to pick?

[Frosty]

OH! Found it. Thanks. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/alchemical-cartridges for anyone who wants to know.

Edit: When creating a cartridge using the gunsmithing feat, is it possible to add the various kinds of bullets to it, like a silver bullet or pitted bullet? Finally, is a gunslinger considered to know all of the deeds (aside from the ones that are replaced via archetypes) or do you have to pick?
As a Gunslinger, you know all Deeds at the appropriate level.

[Cieyrin]

Edit: When creating a cartridge using the gunsmithing feat, is it possible to add the various kinds of bullets to it, like a silver bullet or pitted bullet? Finally, is a gunslinger considered to know all of the deeds (aside from the ones that are replaced via archetypes) or do you have to pick?

Cartridges as by RAW use standard bullets, though a reasonable DM should allow you to make special cartridges with special bullets, as there's nothing about bullets that should limit putting together cartridges like that.

And yes, as Frosty said, a Gunslinger knows all Deeds that their class level allows, as noted in the class or the Archetype chosen. You can add new Deeds by taking the appropriate Grit feat whenever you qualify for them.

[Drothmal]

@ Cieyrin: Fantastic guide!!!

@ grarrrg (copied and pasted so I would not misspell it :smallwink:): I'm not sure if you are going to expand to multiclass with respect to 3rd party. But if you consider psionics, there is a lot to be said for PsiWar+Gunslinger

Extra feats + Psionic Shot + Powers that give you more damage + assasin's path (+2 to damage) + powers that let you scout and increase your damage + you offset the 3/4 BAB with only having to do ranged touch = Awesomeness

EDIT: I'd say that 2-4 lvls of PsiWar can net you a lot of awesomeness if you are going primarily Gunslinger. I'm not sure what would be a good number of Gunslinger if you are going the other way around (1 or 4, I guess)

[grarrrg]

expand to multiclass with respect to 3rd party. But if you consider psionics, there is a lot to be said for PsiWar+Gunslinger

EDIT: I'd say that 2-4 lvls of PsiWar can net you a lot of awesomeness if you are going primarily Gunslinger. I'm not sure what would be a good number of Gunslinger if you are going the other way around (1 or 4, I guess)

Well, since Cieyrin hasn't copy/pasted yet, I guess it's up to me to make the edits, I half ignored, half forgot about Psionics. (that and I've never really read up on Psionics) I'll have to do a quick review, see if any of the Prestige options seen worthwhile as well.

[Exelbirth]

Interesting idea I thought of for ammo, and that's the addition of armor piercing rounds and hollow point bullets. Hollow point bullets do twice as much damage, but don't get the benefit of ignoring armor in the first range increment.

AP rounds ignore armor to the max range increments of your gun, but deal half non-lethal damage, or simply half damage, whichever sounds more balanced. They also give you a chance to sunder armor, with a +1 per AP bullet that hit that armor previously.

I think that those two types of ammo would add an extra level of tactical thinking for parties, like the gunslinger takes out the armor of the enemy the main melee guy's going toe to toe with, or uses hollow point to dispatch the caster quickly, minimizing mass damage to your team.

Just something I think would be fun, probably best restricted to the more advanced tech eras.

[grarrrg]

...Hollow point bullets do twice as much damage, but don't get the benefit of ignoring armor in the first range increment....
AP rounds ignore armor to the max range increments of your gun, but deal half non-lethal damage, or simply half damage, whichever sounds more balanced. They also give you a chance to sunder armor, with a +1 per AP bullet that hit that armor previously.
...Just something I think would be fun, probably best restricted to the more advanced tech eras.

Agreed on leaving to advanced eras, as it's too easy to switch ammo on the fly.
Otherwise you'd start with all AP rounds loaded until the armor was broken, then start loading Hollow Points.

[Exelbirth]

Been flipping through the Ultimate Magic book and came across an entry I had skipped over before that lets you augment constructs with weapons, extra hd, etc. Also, the ability to create a construct that one can wear as armor, gaining significant benefits. While it's mostly melee focused, as constructs usually lack a dexterity, I got to thinking how interesting it'd be to craft an iron golem with built in guns that one could wear. Basically power armor. The benefits would be you'd be immune to most spells, unable to be hit until the golem is destroyed (which would be a challenge itself with the DR15/Adamantine), and fire heals the golem. Downsides are you move slower, less nimble, have to be able to cast high level spells to create the golem.

I'm thinking that it'd actually work decently with the guntank archetype.

Edit: Looking more into golems, I found the Mithral golem has a ridiculously high dexterity, and making one to your size gives it a total dexterity of 28. I believe you use the physical scores of a golem when using one as armor, it's not entirely clear on how that all works, but if i'm right, you get a dex bonus of +9 instead of your normal dexterity. It also gets to make an extra move action each round, useful when you gotta reload.

[Prime32]

Those things are really overpriced though...

[Exelbirth]

Those things are really overpriced though...

They are a little bit, but making a new character at certain levels can easily afford a lot of them. A 16th level character could easily make an iron golem with the construct armor enhancement, and still have plenty of gold left over for magic gear and basic items.

[grarrrg]

*more submission*

Archetypes

Gun Tank
A Gun Tank is pretty much what it sounds like. You lose the more 'dexterity' flavored features in exchange for 'toughness' flavored ones.

Gain: Medium/Heavy Armor prof, and Tower Shield prof.

Lose: Gunslinger's Dodge Deed
Gain: Spend Grit for chance to ignore Critical/Sneak Attack damage (i.e. Fortification)

Lose: Nimble
Gain: Deflection bonus to AC (vs. 'mundane', not magical)

Lose: Bonus Feats
Gain: Armor Training (per Fighter), stacks with Fighter levels

Lose: Evasive Deed
Gain: A Fort-based version of Evasion, and +2 save vs. Fear/Mind

Mysterious Stranger
To put it simply, this takes away WIS and replaces it with CHA for all features.

Change: Grit pool is based on CHA modifier, not on WIS

(following are grouped as the bonuses/levels have mostly been shuffled around)
Lose: Quick Clear Deed & Gun Training
Gain: Focused Aim Deed & Stranger's Fortune. You get 'stat' to damage earlier, but it costs Grit now. And instead of removing Broken from misfires, you can outright ignore CHA-mod misfires per day.

Lose: Nimble
Gain: Bonus to Will saves (useful since you no longer have good WIS)

Gain: If you miss, you can spend Grit to do half-damage anyway.


Mustket Master
A Gunslinger with a focus on 2-handed firearms.

Lose: Only has proficiency with 2-handed firearms, must choose a Musket as starting weapon.
Gain: Rapid Reload (Muskets)

Lose: Gunslinger's Dodge Deed
Gain: Spend a Move action to increase Range Increment of 2-hand firearm.

Lose: Utility Shot Deed
Gain: Treat 2-handed firearms as 1-handed for purposes of reloading.

Change: Gun Training only applies to 2-handed firearms. Gain an increase in damage instead of additional firearm types. Ignore ALL misfires at level 13.


Pistolero
A Gunslinger focused on 1-handed firearms.

Change: Only has proficiency with 1-handed firearms, must choose a Pistol as starting weapon.

Lose: Startling Shot Deed
Change: Deadeye Deed is gained at level 7 instead of level 1.
Gain: Spend Grit to gain Precision damage (d6's) on attack, does half the extra damage if the attack misses.

Lose: Menacing Shot Deed
Gain: If you hit a target with 2 or more firearm attacks, you can spend a Grit to make them Prone.

Change: Gun Training only applies to 1-handed firearms. Gain an increase in damage instead of additional firearm types. Ignore ALL misfires at level 13.
*Note: As written Pistol Training does NOT replace Gun Training. Technically, by current RAW, Pistolero's get both. This will almost certainly be corrected by errata.*


Archetypes can be combined, provided that the same feature is not traded away multiple times. This leaves the only allowable combination as Gun Tank + Pistolero (and if going by RAW Mysterious Stranger + Pistolero).

[DeMouse]

I had a good idea for a build using levels in Duelist untill I noticed the clarification on the PFSRD saying it needed to be a melee weapon.

[Cieyrin]

I had a good idea for a build using levels in Duelist untill I noticed the clarification on the PFSRD saying it needed to be a melee weapon.

There are combo melee-pistols, though I'm not sure how useful they really are...

[Curious]

Actually, I've got a pretty cool trick using Duelist and the Sword and Pistol style.

Since the Duelists Canny Defense works as long as you don't have a shield in your other hand, you can wield both a pistol and a rapier without losing it. The Precise Strike ability says you can make no attacks with an off-hand weapon or you lose the ability, however, the Parry ability allows you to trade an attack action for a parry. So essentially, you make a full attack with your rapier, and deflect an enemies attack by shooting his blade aside.

[grarrrg]

Something worth noting when taking a Gunslinger Archetype (especially Mysterious Stranger).
Trophy Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/trophy-hunter) Ranger, at level 2 gains "the Amateur Gunslinger feat, and can use any 1st-level Gunslinger deed".
Now, granted, the intent is to take Trophy Ranger INSTEAD of Gunsliner. But I see a quick 2-level-dip way for a Mysterious Stranger to regain the use of Quick Clear (and pick up some Extra Grit on the side).

[Cieyrin]

Something worth noting when taking a Gunslinger Archetype (especially Mysterious Stranger).
Trophy Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/trophy-hunter) Ranger, at level 2 gains "the Amateur Gunslinger feat, and can use any 1st-level Gunslinger deed".
Now, granted, the intent is to take Trophy Ranger INSTEAD of Gunsliner. But I see a quick 2-level-dip way for a Mysterious Stranger to regain the use of Quick Clear (and pick up some Extra Grit on the side).

Ooo, intriguing. If this week wasn't out to murder me, I'd totally be writing that in. I feel so bad for the massive inactivity here but RL has been a right pain this month...

[Infernalbargain]

Here's something about Dead Shot that makes it quite nice for crit-fishing. If any of the attacks in the Dead Shot crit, the whole thing crits if you confirm, so improved crit would be a significant damage increase at high levels. At 11th, having improved crit changes your crit threat chance from 1-(19/20)^3 = 14.2625% to 1-(9/10)^3 = 27.1%, so it's like you're crit range increases with your BAB (34.39% with improved crit, 18.549375% without at 16th). All of a sudden you're effectively wielding a 14-20 / x4 weapon. This gets juicier if you allow haste etc. to give you extra attacks in your Dead Shot.

[Cieyrin]

Here's something about Dead Shot that makes it quite nice for crit-fishing. If any of the attacks in the Dead Shot crit, the whole thing crits if you confirm, so improved crit would be a significant damage increase at high levels. At 11th, having improved crit changes your crit threat chance from 1-(19/20)^3 = 14.2625% to 1-(9/10)^3 = 27.1%, so it's like you're crit range increases with your BAB (34.39% with improved crit, 18.549375% without at 16th). All of a sudden you're effectively wielding a 14-20 / x4 weapon. This gets juicier if you allow haste etc. to give you extra attacks in your Dead Shot.

You'd want Improved Critical and Critical Focus in my book, anyways, for Grit renewal purposes, since Keen is melee only. Just be aware of the confirm penalty that's part of Dead Shot, which is what makes Critical Focus important for countering.

[grarrrg]

Gundolon v1.3
a.k.a.
Heavily-Armed
(Algunist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11889332#post11889332))

http://www.horrorstew.com/images/sixshooterPM005.jpg
Kind of like this, but with more arms

The following is NOT recommended for a low-level start game. It is presented as a level 20 build. There are ways to modify it to be more playable at low levels, but it would be weaker at high levels.

Class Breakdown:
Gunslinger 5 (Pistolero): Grants Firearms, Grit, some Deeds and Dex-to-Damage.
Ranger 2 (Trophy Hunter): Extra Grit and a 1st level Gunslinger Deed.
Summoner 12 (Synthesist): Replace our Physical scores, grow a LOT of arms.
Something! 1: Free space! This is actually a level 19 build! Options will be explored later! For build purposes we shall assume a level of Fighter! (for the bonus feat!)

Race: Halfling, small, -2 Str +2 Dex, +2 Cha (Halfling chosen to allow small-Eidolon-Form)
Classes:
Gunslinger 5 (Pistolero)
Ranger 2 (Trophy Hunter)
Summoner 12 (Synthesist)
Something! 1 (who knows!)
Sample 15-point buy:
Str 9 (11-2race)
Dex 16 (13+2race+1level)
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14 (13+1level)
Cha 18 (13+2race+3level)
8d10+12d8 HD (avg 98 +40 from Con) + 9d10+Con from Eidolon.
Bab 17
All saves will be medium/great
Gunslinger 5 gets us Guns, Grit and Gore (Dex-to-Damage that is)
Ranger 2 is to improve our Grit pool and grab the Mysterious Stranger's Focused Aim deed.
Summoner 12 (Synthesist) The Eidolon's physical stats will replace our own (hence our poor Str/Dex scores), we will be using a Small Serpentine Eidolon for the net +2 to-hit +0 damage (-1 Weapon size, +1 Dex-to-damage). Eidolon-form stats after all bonuses/penalties are Str 13, Dex 24, Con 12. We have 16 Evolution points, most will be spent on adding Arms, the remainder will be spent on utility powers or boosting Dex.
Something! 1. The next levels in each of our 3 chosen classes provide minimal gains. Possibilities: Fighter can be taken for the extra feat
Paladin can be taken for a 1/day Smite Evil
Rogue gives Trapfinding and 1d6 Sneak Attack
Cleric grants a Domain power and minor spellcasting
Ditto for Oracle but swap Domain for Revelation
Inquisitor gets a Domain power, a 1/day Judgement, and even minor-er spellcasting
Monk gives Wis-to-AC and gets a bonus feat
Etc/etc/etc... Pick your favorite!

Feats: 11 (10 levels, 1 Gunslinger) these are listed in no particular order, and are only numbered/labeled to keep track of them easier.
1 Rapid Reload
3 Dodge
5 Mobility
7 Point-Blank Shot
9 Quick-Draw
11 Two/Multi-Weapon Fighting (Multi specifically replaces Two-weap for creatures with 3+ arms, the problem is that we only have 2 arms in our natural state, so we need to have 15 Dex to take Two-Weap, when Multi only requires 13 Dex)
13 Deadly Aim
15 Precise Shot
17 Deft Shootist Deed
19 Leaping Shot Deed
(G) Improved Critical (Keen is not an option on firearms)
(F) Hammer the Gap

We shall assume your Eidolon-form has 12 arms total, each holding a pistol. Most of your weapons will probably have minimal upgrades based on what you can afford, recommend Distance on most/all of them, and buy a wide variety of abilities. 1 of your weapons can be a 'dud' gun with no abilities, after the first shot you drop it to free up that hand for reloading.

Damage Calculation (assume all pistols are simple +1's, and that the Eidolon has 26 Dex):
12 attacks, each with...
To-hit: +21 (17bab, 8dex, 1weapon, 1size, -5deadly aim, +1point-blank, -2multiweapon (assumes Pistols are Light weapons))
Damage: 1d6+24 (1d6+1weapon, +10deadly aim, +8Dex, +4Cha, +1point-blank)
Most will hit, and 1 of those should be a Critical for x4 damage, and will regain the Grit point spent on Focused Aim. You can also spend a Grit to use Leaping Shot Deed and move before/after/during your attacks.

If all of them hit, with 1 Critical, you will be doing around 400 damage each round! (somebody double check please)

Hammer the Gap damage is hard to calculate in. You only gain the bonus on 'consecutive' hits, so any Miss will reset the counter, also, the bonus damage IS multiplied on a Critical.
If all 12 attacks hit with NO Critical, you'd gain +66 damage from Hammer the Gap!

Round 2 of combat might be trickier, as you will need to reload a dozen guns (but then again, most things will be dead so...)

HIGHLY recommend you make use of Alchemical Cartridges to get free reloads (you still need 1 free hand).

Final notes: The presented build is merely 1 option, feel free to adjust class levels up/down.
Pumping both Wis and Cha is inefficient when your Grit pool 'can' run entirely on Cha with Mysterious Gunslinger. In that case you should use the Ranger levels to grab the Quick Clear deed, and then you only need the 1 level of Gunslinger. With the 4 extra levels, Fighter would be a good choice for the Feats, and you can pick up Weapon Specialization to help make up for the loss of Dex-to-Damage.

[Exelbirth]

Well, got to do my first session with my gunslinger. It's nice, I can reload my musket as a free action, so long as I'm using cartridges. But it's looking a bit like I should have gone with a type of gunslinger that's better at espionage than a sniper, so I'm moving forward with making a skirmish-slinger build.

[Cieyrin]

Well, got to do my first session with my gunslinger. It's nice, I can reload my musket as a free action, so long as I'm using cartridges. But it's looking a bit like I should have gone with a type of gunslinger that's better at espionage than a sniper, so I'm moving forward with making a skirmish-slinger build.

Good to hear. I should be getting back to working on this shortly, I'm hoping, so updates should be forthcoming.

[arguskos]

Good to hear. I should be getting back to working on this shortly, I'm hoping, so updates should be forthcoming.
Fantastic! I've been looking for a Gunslinger Handbook that includes PF feat selections and there just isn't one (because the Gunslinger is pretty bad honestly and thus no one cares). Hope to see this go somewhere soon.

[deuxhero]

For the feats: Note that while Vital Strike is mostly redundant with Deadeye, it has one big use: A standard action can be readied while a full round can't (reload and ammo use are helpful extra).

With PF's harder concerntration checks and the fact that you only need to beat touch AC, it works decently against mages.

[Cieyrin]

Fantastic! I've been looking for a Gunslinger Handbook that includes PF feat selections and there just isn't one (because the Gunslinger is pretty bad honestly and thus no one cares). Hope to see this go somewhere soon.

The Playtest Guide I did has a lot of that and I'll be drawing from so I don't have to necessarily start from Square 1, though some things have obviously changed (no more Lightning Reload, for example), so that should be useful till I can get to that part.

EDIT: Finished the race section finally. Now I can finally point out what's extra awesome about Goblin Gunslingers (thanks, Goblins of Golarion! :smallbiggrin:). If anyone wants to critique that section, especially the Bestiary races, feel free. I'm gonna look over Skills and Traits and my original thoughts from the Playtest Handbook and get a framework for the next post up so I can start cracking on feats.

Note: I'm only covering Core, APG and UC for feats and traits. I made mention of PSU races but I won't be covering that book any further, as I don't own the book and trolling through the SRD gets annoying fast. If you play a psionic race, I'm sure you can pick out for yourself what's good or not.

[deuxhero]

So how much does Dangerously Curious as a trait shoot up with Mysterious Stranger now usable?

[Lateral]

Sorry, I don't have any useful advice on the gunslinger itself. I just wanted to point out that that picture that's next to the title really stretches screens, being next to the text like that- could you move it down, so it doesn't cause difficulties for people on the forum on smartphones? Also, the Yellow color is pretty hard on the eyes; might want to change it to Gold, instead. (It's the orange, but it's really more gold-colored than the yellow, anyway.)

[Cieyrin]

So how much does Dangerously Curious as a trait shoot up with Mysterious Stranger now usable?

You better believe it's getting a mention, Mysterious Strangers need a Wand of Mending and those other tasty gunslinger-oriented spells. I may even make mention of much-maligned (here, at least) partially charged wands! :smalltongue:


Sorry, I don't have any useful advice on the gunslinger itself. I just wanted to point out that that picture that's next to the title really stretches screens, being next to the text like that- could you move it down, so it doesn't cause difficulties for people on the forum on smartphones? Also, the Yellow color is pretty hard on the eyes; might want to change it to Gold, instead. (It's the orange, but it's really more gold-colored than the yellow, anyway.)

Can do. Some of the colors are bugging me a little bit for readability, looking at what I have so far. EDIT: Done. The color I was worried about was the Cyan, actually. I only used Gold for the 2 "broken" races (Drow Noble and Svirfneblin), its the readability of Cyan, even after bolding, that makes me worry.

[Psyren]

Note: I'm only covering Core, APG and UC for feats and traits. I made mention of PSU races but I won't be covering that book any further, as I don't own the book and trolling through the SRD gets annoying fast. If you play a psionic race, I'm sure you can pick out for yourself what's good or not.

I wouldn't until PsiEx is released anyway - The most likely candidate for psionic gunslinging would be a Marksman. :smalltongue:

[Lateral]

Can do. Some of the colors are bugging me a little bit for readability, looking at what I have so far. EDIT: Done. The color I was worried about was the Cyan, actually. I only used Gold for the 2 "broken" races (Drow Noble and Svirfneblin), its the readability of Cyan, even after bolding, that makes me worry.
Try changing it to Sky Blue- it's more readable. Just call it 'cyan,' in keeping with other handbooks' color schemes, and call it a day.

[Frosty]

So, where do I find the Favored Class Bonus for Goblin Gunslingers?

Also, on a side note, you don't get Favored Class bonus for level 1 right?

[Novawurmson]

So, where do I find the Favored Class Bonus for Goblin Gunslingers?

Also, on a side note, you don't get Favored Class bonus for level 1 right?

1. No idea.

2. You get it every time you take a level of the favored class - including first level.

[Cieyrin]

So, where do I find the Favored Class Bonus for Goblin Gunslingers?

Also, on a side note, you don't get Favored Class bonus for level 1 right?

It's in Goblins of Golarion, the only PF splat supplement I own, besides APG and UC. Fun read, it is. Somebody at Paizo loves them some Gobbos. :smallwink:

And yes, you can get the Favored Class Bonus at 1st, provided you choose your Favored Class as the class you take at 1st level. If you have multiple Favored Classes, you get it when you level in either, including at 1st level.

Speaking of APG, I finally have a hard copy, so I don't have to fight with the PDF anymore. Hopefully that'll make getting work done easier.

[Lateral]

Hmm... that cyan doesn't look the same as mine did.

Oh, wait, I used Deep Sky Blue, not Sky Blue.

[Frosty]

It's in Goblins of Golarion, the only PF splat supplement I own, besides APG and UC. Fun read, it is. Somebody at Paizo loves them some Gobbos. :smallwink:

And yes, you can get the Favored Class Bonus at 1st, provided you choose your Favored Class as the class you take at 1st level. If you have multiple Favored Classes, you get it when you level in either, including at 1st level.

Speaking of APG, I finally have a hard copy, so I don't have to fight with the PDF anymore. Hopefully that'll make getting work done easier.
I'm gonna make a warforged Gunslinger re-fluffing a Large-sized musket as a built-in arm-cannon. He's obssessed with upholding honor and the law and such. Imma spout such one-liners as "OBJECTION OVERRULED" as I shoot things :smallamused:

[deuxhero]

Amateur Gunslinger mentions deeds from items. Is this just a precaution, or are there actual items that do this?

[grarrrg]

I'm gonna make a warforged Gunslinger re-fluffing a Large-sized musket as a built-in arm-cannon. He's obssessed with upholding honor and the law and such. Imma spout such one-liners as "OBJECTION OVERRULED" as I shoot things :smallamused:

I vote for "Robocop"


Amateur Gunslinger mentions deeds from items. Is this just a precaution, or are there actual items that do this?

Just a precaution at this point.
There are Enchantments that give the Firearm itself a Grit pool, but currently no Deeds.

[Frosty]

I vote for "Robocop""Undead or Alive, you're coming with ME!" :smallbiggrin:

Actually, the game I'm applying to right now has me coming from a nation that is similar to anicnet Japan, except with 'forged. The moniker for my race is "Samuroid."

[Crasical]

+1 Distance Musket (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons#TOC-Distance), 80ft range increment, 9,800 gold.
Far Reaching Sight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/firearms#TOC-Far-Reaching-Sight), 4,000 gold.
Sniper Goggles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/goggles-sniper-goggles), 20,000 gold.

Touch AC sneak attack from 800 feet away? Priceless.

( You could also just convert all your rogue talents into Ninja Tricks and pick up the +10 feet range trick every time, if the 20k gold piece pricetag makes you all weak in the knees. )

[grarrrg]

( You could also just convert all your rogue talents into Ninja Tricks and pick up the +10 feet range trick every time, if the 20k gold piece pricetag makes you all weak in the knees. )

If you're converting all of your Rogue Talents into Ninja tricks, why not just be a Ninja? :smallconfused:

[Crasical]

A rogue with goggles and a scope and a gun is a sniper.

A ninja with a gun is silly.

[grarrrg]

A rogue with goggles and a scope and a gun is a sniper.

A ninja with a gun is silly.

Snake Eyes, respectfully, disagrees
http://screencrave.frsucrave.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/gi-joe-rise-of-cobra-20090617103113861.jpghttp://film-book.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/gi-joe-snake-eyes.jpg

[Crasical]

Snake Eyes, respectfully, disagrees
http://screencrave.frsucrave.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/gi-joe-rise-of-cobra-20090617103113861.jpghttp://film-book.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/gi-joe-snake-eyes.jpg

His gun has no scope. My point stands.

[grarrrg]

His gun has no scope. My point stands.

He's a Ninja.
He doesn't need a scope.

You ever see the movie Quigley Down Under?
No?
Go watch it and get back to me. (note: it's about guns, not ninjas, still relevant though)

[Crasical]

He's a Ninja.
He doesn't need a scope.

Without a scope he can only perform touch attacks within the first range increment with his firearm. He needs a scope.

[grarrrg]

Do remember that your initial point was that "Ninja + Gun = Silly"
I believe I have disproved that.


Without a scope he can only perform touch attacks within the first range increment with his firearm. He needs a scope.

_MY_ point is that he is a Ninja. He can do what he wants.



Quigley is a good movie, with an awesome ending scene (and Quigley is a Sniper!)

[Baka Nikujaga]

http://i54.tinypic.com/200whs1.jpg
Cieyrin, would you mind if I added my particular build to your thread?

[grarrrg]

http://i54.tinypic.com/200whs1.jpg
Cieyrin, would you mind if I added my particular build to your thread?

Go ahead, I have _3_ versions of Gundolon posted.
And like Cieyrin can do anything to stop you anyway.
MUHUHAHAHAHAHA!

[Curious]

Cieyrin, perhaps you should clarify in the Deeds section that Up Close and Deadly only deals half the bonus damage on a miss.

[Cieyrin]

http://i54.tinypic.com/200whs1.jpg
Cieyrin, would you mind if I added my particular build to your thread?

Sure, go ahead. One of these days, I'll have the time and energy to get back to work on this again. Regular bandwidth probably wouldn't be a bad thing, either.


Cieyrin, perhaps you should clarify in the Deeds section that Up Close and Deadly only deals half the bonus damage on a miss.

Yeah, I should probably, as for whatever reason I thought Clipping Shot and that part of Up Close and Deadly were that same effect. Slightly different wording, there.

EDIT: Changed the text of both Up Close and Deadly and Clipping Shot to reflect.

[Frosty]

bump for great justice! I could use some Feat advice.

[grarrrg]

bump for great justice! I could use some Feat advice.

In general, most Bow/Crossbow related feats will help, I'll try to focus more on the "must have" for a Firearm user.

MUST HAVE
Rapid Reload, drops the reload time significantly. Pair with Cartridges for extra fun.

Not provoke AoO's just for firing.
Deft Shootist Deed, need Dodge/Mobility ,don't provoke for Reloading either
Point Blank Master, needs Weapon Specialization
Gunslinger (the feat), need Weapon Focus

You regain Grit only if you kill something, or HIT with a Critical shot
Improved Critical (you can't put Keen on a gun)
Critical Focus

Firearms target touch AC most of the time, so the loss in accuracy is negligible, the damage gain is SWEET!
Deadly Aim

If you DON'T plan to take Gunslinger level 7, then this is very nice, otherwise it's too similar to the Dead Shot deed (and slightly worse)
Vital Strike

Make Attacks of Opportunity with your firearms
Snap Shot (Improved/Greater)

The Gunslinger only gets a Bonus feat every 4 levels. Feel free to dip Ranger for a couple levels or Fighter for a lot of levels.
So long as you get Gun Training at Gunslinger 5, you're good.

[deuxhero]

Vital Strike is a standard action where Dead Eye is full. At least you can ready it vs casting.

[Frosty]

Dead Shot auto-scales and doesn't cost you 3 feats though, which is nice.

I supposed Deadly Aim is good. I'm still worried a bit about missing however :smalltongue: Is that +4 damage really worth the -2 to hit if my base damage per shot is alreayd 3d6+8? The math depends on the AC of the enemy of course, but I feel that the bigger your damage already is, the less worth it Dedly Aim.

I wonder how I can jack up my accuracy besides Weapon Focus and increasing Dex. We don't have a Bard in the party.

[grarrrg]

Dead Shot auto-scales and doesn't cost you 3 feats though, which is nice.

I supposed Deadly Aim is good. I'm still worried a bit about missing however :smalltongue: Is that +4 damage really worth the -2 to hit if my base damage per shot is alreayd 3d6+8? The math depends on the AC of the enemy of course, but I feel that the bigger your damage already is, the less worth it Dedly Aim.

I wonder how I can jack up my accuracy besides Weapon Focus and increasing Dex. We don't have a Bard in the party.

At low levels Deadly Aim is more so-so, you lose a fair amount of to-hit, to do extra damage to something with barely any HP.
As you level though, you'll find your accuracy improving, but critters Touch AC barely increases while their HP sky rockets.


As for general accuracy, the only thing I can recommend is Weapon Master Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/weapon-master).
Starting at level 3 they get +1 attack/damage bonuses (and every 4 after).

It also gives you the option of gaining Weapon Specialization > Point Blank Master if you don't want to spend the feats for Dodge > Mobility > Deft Shootist.
Of course, it gives you extra feats too :smallamused:

But PLEASE take at least 5 levels of Gunslinger before considering multi-classing.

[Cieyrin]

Dead Shot auto-scales and doesn't cost you 3 feats though, which is nice.

I supposed Deadly Aim is good. I'm still worried a bit about missing however :smalltongue: Is that +4 damage really worth the -2 to hit if my base damage per shot is alreayd 3d6+8? The math depends on the AC of the enemy of course, but I feel that the bigger your damage already is, the less worth it Dedly Aim.

I wonder how I can jack up my accuracy besides Weapon Focus and increasing Dex. We don't have a Bard in the party.

Speaking of accuracy, Precise Shot is a lot more necessary than my initial suppositions, as -4 shooting into combat +4 soft cover still applies to touch ACs. Plus, it's a Prereq for Clustered Shots, which makes dealing with DR, the bane to all archers, more manageable.

Deadly Aim + Rapid Shot (provided you're reloading as a free action via Rapid Reload/Paper Cartridge) rapidly amps up your damage. I'd wait on Deadly Aim till Gunslinger bonus feat at 4th. In the mean time, Point Blank Shot will apply most of the time, since you'll more often than not be at that range.

For Pistols, definitely look into Oils of Long Shot, which for a minute makes your range increment 30', which is exactly the range you need before you're able to afford to put distance on your favorite gun.

Also, I've been thinking a bit more on the usefulness of pepperboxes. The advantage isn't the free action reload, since it acts normally like you were using paper cartridges in a pistol and you don't want to reload with paper cartridges, since then it'll be worse than your pistol. The advantage is that, unlike pistols, you can load your pepperbox with multiple special bullets, like a Tracer Bullet in the first chamber and the rest +1 Humanbane bullets or whatever. This also, to my realization, gives Lightning Reload a slight boost in usefulness, both in that by that time your favorite gun is probably Steadfast at least and you can use a regular bullet to keep your pistol misfire chance at 0% on shot 1 and 2, it lets you use a second special bullet on that first volley before switching to paper cartridges. I wouldn't invest in a Pepperbox to replace your man weapon by any means but its a nice backup and special gun that should be powered by magic bullets, which should save you money in the long run.

Finally, for early play, heavily consider Flare Rounds and Entangling Shot. The DCs are high enough in the low levels to give people problems, while you can get your fellow party members to come clean up while your target is busy being blind or hindered. The goal with them isn't the damage, it's the statuses you're inflicting. Especially with the Flare Rounds, I'd highly suggest Long Shot oil so you don't dazzle yourself in the process, since that 20' burst combined with the 15'-20' range can give you issues.

Hope this is useful to you, I'll see if I can perhaps get to writing up Traits, Feats & Skills, maybe after I finish writing the Archetype Combo guide, which is half-done or so right now.

[grarrrg]

Guns Akimbo
OR
How the heck do I reload 2 pistols efficiently?

(assume "modern" guns are not in play > no revolvers)

It looks cool. Everyone in the movies does it. Two guns a blazing, cutting down the bad-guys left and right.
But the people in the movies have access to Magazines and Gun-Fu.
All we have are single-shot muzzle-loader types.

The "firing" is easy enough, it's the reloading that kills us. Through use of Rapid Reload and Cartridges, we can get any/all reloads down to a Free Action. The problem with Two guns is this little rules gem:

You need at least one hand free to load one-handed and two-handed firearms.
Last I checked both our hands were holding guns...

Keep in mind that using Cartridges increases your chances of Misfire, you must always be prepared to spend actions to Quick-Clear your firearm(s). There is no way to reduce a Quick-Clear to a Swift or Free action.

There are a few options available to Gunslingers to make Two-weapon Fighting/Reloading feasible. Some of them are useable at low levels, the others require mid-to-high levels (and possibly a friend).
Frequency of Extra Shot numbers are how often you can make use of Two-Weapon Fighting. Add your normal number of Iterative attacks to this to get your Average Shots per Round. Assumes you have Rapid Reload feat and Cartridges (i.e. Free action reload)

Option 1A: Juggling > No Investment
Frequency of Extra Shot: 1 extra shot ever 3rd round
Basically, you put one gun away to free up a hand to reload the other. This is the option you're going to be stuck with at the beginning of your career as a Gunslinger. It takes a Move action to put away a weapon, and another Move to draw it, this kills our turn, and only reloads 1 gun. (Alternately, we can 'drop' an item as a Free action, but to pick it back up is a Move action that provokes AoO's).
The Quick Draw (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-draw-combat---final) feat can be used to halve this time, letting us reload both guns in the same round, but we still need a Move action to put the weapon(s) away.
w/ Quick Draw (drop&pick-up is same, but a Move/Free action are switched)
Round 1: Full> Fire both guns (end both empty)
Round 2: Move>Holster Gun A, Free> Reload B, Standard> Fire B, Free> reload B, Free> Draw A (end B loaded)
Round 3: Move>Holster B, Free> reload A, Standard> Fire A, Free> Reload A, Free> Draw B (end both loaded)
Round 4: repeat

Weapon-Cords got the nerf-bat and now take a Move Action to recover.
*aside*
Here's where things start to get tricky. Here are the 2 relevant rules you may have questions on:
Free Actions can be made during a Full-Round Action
and
If you are using two weapons, you can attack with either weapon first.

Option 1B: Juggling Improved
Frequency of Extra Shot: 1 extra shot every round
Weapon Cords (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services#TOC-Weapon-Cord) lets you retrieve a 'dropped' weapon with a Swift action. We still only get 1 Swift action/round, so if we want to reload both on the same turn we still need to spend a Move action. Still 1 Move to reload 2 guns is better than 2 Moves for 2 guns.
Note: The each underlined portion is during a single Full-Round Action. The first Gun fired each round is the Off-Hand Gun, this is important.
Round 1: Full> Fire Gun A, Free> Drop Gun A, Free> Reload Gun B, > Fire B (if iteratives your hand is free to reload/keep firing, end B loaded), Swift> Recover A (end B loaded, both guns in hand)
Round 2: Full> Fire Gun B, Free> Drop Gun B, Free > Reload Gun A, > Fire A (if iteratives your hand is free to reload/keep firing, end A loaded), Swift> Recover B (end A loaded, both guns in hand)
Round 3: repeat

Option 2: Double-Barrel
Frequency of Extra Shot: up to 2 extra shots per round
Double-Barreled Pistol (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/pistol-double-barreled) replaces your normal Single Barrel, almost twice as expensive, and increased chance of Misfire. The Pepperbox (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/pepperbox) is NOT an option as you still need a free hand to rotate the barrel to the next shot, if we had a free hand we could just Rapid Reload>Cartridge anyway.
Combine with Juggling techniques to further enhance.
Note: The each underlined portion is during a single Full-Round Action. Using Double-Barreled Pistols w/Weapon Cords. The first Gun fired each round is the Off-Hand Gun, this is important.
Round 1: Full> Fire Gun A twice, Free> Drop Gun A, Free> Reload Gun B, > Fire B twice (keep reloading/firing B if more iteratives, end B loaded), Swift> Recover A (end B loaded, both guns in hand)
Round 2: Full> Fire Gun B twice, Free> Drop Gun B, Free> Reload Gun A, > Fire A twice (keep reloading/firing A if more iteratives, end A loaded), Swift> Recover B (end A loaded, both guns in hand)
Round 3: repeat


Option 3: Magic (mid/high level)
Frequency of Extra Shot: up to 3 extra shots per round (this is the maximum, as Two-Weapon Fighting only goes up to 3 extra attacks)
This option either requires a friendly Caster (of decent level), or a UMD+Juggling investment for yourself.
Reloading Hands (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/reloading-hands) automatically loads 1 shot/round into the weapon of choice. If you can get this cast on both of your weapons, then you can fire 2 shots/round with ZERO Reload-related actions on your part, or up to 3 shots/round if using the Double-Barreled/Weapon Cord trick above. The downside is that you almost NEED a friend to cast this for you. The duration is only 1 round per level, and spending actions yourself to Cast>put wand away>draw gun defeats the purpose (and if you cast it yourself, the duration isn't likely to be very long).
Even if you get someone to cast it for you it will either be very expensive (Wands), or drain all of your friend's level 2 spell slots. And his level 2 spell slots are probably better spent on other spells.
Reloading Hands, like most spells, does not stack with itself, meaning you can ONLY get 1 extra shot per round (per gun).
Unseen Servant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/u/unseen-servant) is another (horrible) option, and is only mentioned for sake of completeness. It cannot take feats, so it does not have Rapid Reload, using Cartridges it can reload a maximum of 2 shots/round (move actions). Multiple castings CAN get you extra shots, and the duration is MUCH better than Reloading Hands (1 hour per level), but here is what kills its usefulness:
a nonproficient character who loads a firearm increases all misfire values by 4 for the shots he loads.
Cartridges loaded by your little friend increase the Misfire value by _4_. And your little friend only has 6 hp, so any area effect will kill him.
<Note: Pistoleros and Musket Masters of level 13+ can ignore all Misfires>

Saved the best option for last.

Option 4: Need a free hand? GROW ONE! (mid level)
A 2 level dip in Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist) will let you take the Vestigial Arm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/vestigial-arm-ex) discovery. Now you have 3 arms, 2 for guns, 1 for reloads.
Now you can shoot as much as you want without resorting to ANY of the shenanigans listed above.

There are also a handful of races that can have a Tail that can hold onto an item, in this case you Free Action transfer weapon to Tail, Free Action reload, then Free Action transfer back to hand.

An alternative is to take levels in Synthesist Summoner, although that requires a greater level investment (your physical stats get replaced, and the only way to increase them is through more levels of Summoner). Levels in Synthesist also allow you to gain extra arms for even MORE attacks (just keep 1 hand empty for Reloads).

[grarrrg]

Race Updates:
From Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Dragon Empires Gazetteer
Kitsunes are Medium sized Halflings, Humans and Tengu are the same as before, the other 3 have +2 to one important stat (Dex/Wis/Cha).

Human: +2 any
Kitsune: -2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Cha, Medium
Nagaji: +2 Str, -2 Int, +2 Cha, Medium
Samsarans: -2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, Medium
Tengu: +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Wis, Medium
Wayangs: +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Wis, Small

New Monster PCs:
Catfolk: +2 Dex, -2 Wis, +2 Cha, Medium
Ratfolk: -2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Int, Small
Suli: +2 Str, +2 Cha, Medium
Vanara: +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha, Medium
Vishkanya: +2 Dex, -2 Wis, +2 Cha, Medium


None of the newer races are bad choices.
Kitsune, Catfolk, Vanara, and Vishkanya are good choices (+2 Dex w/ +2 Wis/Cha).

[Arutema]

For a campaign that's likely to end at 11th level, how does this sound.

Tengu Gunslinger (Musket Master) 5 / Fighter (Weapon Master 6).

Level 1-4 feats are likely to be Rapid Reload (Musket), Point-blank Shot, and Precise Shot. I'm thinking of favoring vital strike over iterative attacks.

Level 1 stats are (20 point buy):
Str: 13
Dex: 18
Con: 10
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 10

Is vital strike a trap? (I do like rolling multiple d12s for damage.)

What are good feats to take after I have the basics (Rapid Reload (Musket), Point-blank Shot, and Precise Shot) out of the way?

[grarrrg]

Tengu Gunslinger (Musket Master) 5 / Fighter (Weapon Master 6).

Level 1 stats are (20 point buy):
Str: 13
Dex: 18
Con: 10
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 10


What are good feats to take after I have the basics (Rapid Reload (Musket), Point-blank Shot, and Precise Shot) out of the way?

Vital Strike is good, feat intensive, but good.
Although if you spring for Gunslinger level 7 you'll get the Dead Shot deed, which is VERY similar, and doesn't require Feats.

As for general feat help, scroll up a half dozen posts, a listed a bunch of good ones.

On second look, I DID miss the Snap Shot line (AoO's with Firearms).

[Cieyrin]

For a campaign that's likely to end at 11th level, how does this sound.

Tengu Gunslinger (Musket Master) 5 / Fighter (Weapon Master 6).

Level 1-4 feats are likely to be Rapid Reload (Musket), Point-blank Shot, and Precise Shot. I'm thinking of favoring vital strike over iterative attacks.

Level 1 stats are (20 point buy):
Str: 13
Dex: 18
Con: 10
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 10

Is vital strike a trap? (I do like rolling multiple d12s for damage.)

What are good feats to take after I have the basics (Rapid Reload (Musket), Point-blank Shot, and Precise Shot) out of the way?

You get Rapid Reload as a bonus feat as a Musket Master, so you don't have to worry about that. Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Clustered Shots, Hammer the Gap, Deft Shootist, Ricochet Shot, Snap Shot, all are good choices to pursue. At 8th and 9th, I'd suggest Improved Critical and Critical Focus to help your Grit recovery. I'd also suggest going Gunslinger to 7th if you want Vital Strike without having to spend a feat on it.

[Arutema]

You get Rapid Reload as a bonus feat as a Musket Master, so you don't have to worry about that. ... I'd also suggest going Gunslinger to 7th if you want Vital Strike without having to spend a feat on it.

How did I miss that?

Dead Shot has the disadvantage of being a full-round action. Less time to reload and move. Clustered Shots and Hammer the Gap are only useful if you're making multiple attacks per round, and I plan to spend more time vital striking and moving/reloading ball and powder.

Definitely going to take Deadly Aim as soon as I can.

[Cieyrin]

How did I miss that?

Dead Shot has the disadvantage of being a full-round action. Less time to reload and move. Clustered Shots and Hammer the Gap are only useful if you're making multiple attacks per round, and I plan to spend more time vital striking and moving/reloading ball and powder.

Definitely going to take Deadly Aim as soon as I can.

Rapid Reload, Paper Cartridges and Fast Musket means you should be reloading as a free action, so that shouldn't be an issue. If you're than concerned about moving and shooting for lots of damage, I suppose Vital Strike is an okay substitute, though you'll need to pick up Improved Vital Strike at 11th to keep it relevant. Though, since you're using a musket, between Distance and Steady Aim, you can shoot out to 90' and still be making touch attacks, so I don't think you necessarily need to worry so much about having to move into range so much. On the other hand, Vital Strike is too limited to compare to a full attack in terms of damage, since Vital Strike will only boost the dice rolled, not the bonus damage which is the real meat of mundane attackers, so I would still consider Hammer the Gap + Rapid Shot.

[Xander96]

I'm not sure if I missed it or not Cyierin, but I noticed that in your handbook. There isn't a section for recommended firearms or prc/archetypes.

If there is a reference. Please point me in the right direction.

If there is not, would you mind adding? Thanks!

[Cieyrin]

I'm not sure if I missed it or not Cyierin, but I noticed that in your handbook. There isn't a section for recommended firearms or prc/archetypes.

If there is a reference. Please point me in the right direction.

If there is not, would you mind adding? Thanks!

Firearms would be in post 5 and Archetypes in post 6, which I haven't gotten to writing yet. It's all listed where stuff will be in the table of contents on the first post. The Archetype-specific deeds are up in post 2, though, so there's that at least. I suppose I could hyperlink the table of contents, if it's that unclear.

For reference, I the first 3 posts written. I do plan to finish this at some point, it's just that real life issues has kinda taken precedent for the time being.

[grarrrg]

I'm not sure if I missed it or not Cyierin, but I noticed that in your handbook. There isn't a section for recommended firearms or prc/archetypes.

If there is a reference. Please point me in the right direction.

If there is not, would you mind adding? Thanks!

Quick links to things I submitted to the guide:
Multi/Prestige Class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11895292#post11895292)
Archetype breakdown (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12000736#post12000736)
Short Feat list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12586801#post12586801)
2-Weapon Reloading Mini-Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12589453#post12589453)
Race section Update (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12602897#post12602897)

As for recommended Firearms, More Barrels = Better.
But that might just be me.

[Cieyrin]

As for recommended Firearms, More Barrels = Better.
But that might just be me.

idk whether that really pans out, since it goes down to when you add extra barrels that you're basically forced into being treated as using paper cartridges in terms of misfire chance, which annoys me to no end. The plus with them is you can load your multibarreled weaponry with special bullets (read: +1 humanbane holy bullets or whatever, led by a Tracer Bullet) and get more than one shot of your full attack as something nice, rather than just reg shot. Just...don't reload with paper cartridges, you can load a pistol or musket for less misfire and double barreled muskets have **** range on them for whatever reason (why do they lose 30' of range from a regular musket while the musket weapons only lose 10'?!? Ridiculous! :smallfurious:).

[grarrrg]

idk whether that really pans out, since it goes down to when you add extra barrels that you're basically forced into being treated as using paper cartridges in terms of misfire chance, which annoys me to no end. The plus with them is you can load your multibarreled weaponry with special bullets (read: +1 humanbane holy bullets or whatever, led by a Tracer Bullet) and get more than one shot of your full attack as something nice, rather than just reg shot. Just...don't reload with paper cartridges, you can load a pistol or musket for less misfire and double barreled muskets have **** range on them for whatever reason (why do they lose 30' of range from a regular musket while the musket weapons only lose 10'?!? Ridiculous! :smallfurious:).

Wow, I just noticed that about Double-Musket :smalleek: One would pray it's somehow a misprint, not even the Double Barreled pistol is that bad! And in fact, the Double Pistol has the SAME range as the basic Pistol.
I CALL SHENANIGANS!

On a side not, the Reliable enchantments can negate the drawback, and the reason I like Double barreled Pistols is that you can "swift-action" reload them with weapon cords (see the Reload mini-guide for details).

As for the Musket problem... you could always take 3 levels of Luring Cavalier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/luring-cavalier), it lets you target Touch AC up to 2 range increments away, add in the Distance enchantment, and you're (sadly) back up to 40ft.

[Xander96]

Wow, I just noticed that about Double-Musket :smalleek: One would pray it's somehow a misprint, not even the Double Barreled pistol is that bad! And in fact, the Double Pistol has the SAME range as the basic Pistol.
I CALL SHENANIGANS!

On a side not, the Reliable enchantments can negate the drawback, and the reason I like Double barreled Pistols is that you can "swift-action" reload them with weapon cords (see the Reload mini-guide for details).

As for the Musket problem... you could always take 3 levels of Luring Cavalier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/luring-cavalier), it lets you target Touch AC up to 2 range increments away, add in the Distance enchantment, and you're (sadly) back up to 40ft.

The only ? I have is if you do that. Does that take a lot away from the perks the gunslinger class gives you?

[Cieyrin]

Wow, I just noticed that about Double-Musket :smalleek: One would pray it's somehow a misprint, not even the Double Barreled pistol is that bad! And in fact, the Double Pistol has the SAME range as the basic Pistol.
I CALL SHENANIGANS!

I can only hope, as it's currently really bad. The blunderbuss has a long range, for crying out loud!


On a side not, the Reliable enchantments can negate the drawback, and the reason I like Double barreled Pistols is that you can "swift-action" reload them with weapon cords (see the Reload mini-guide for details).

Yeah, that is a nice perk and method of managing that without having to resort to a Glove of Storing, which the PF version explicitly makes you only have one available. I miss the Kimono of Storing for Crossbows Akimbo shenanigans in 3.X. :smallfrown:


As for the Musket problem... you could always take 3 levels of Luring Cavalier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/luring-cavalier), it lets you target Touch AC up to 2 range increments away, add in the Distance enchantment, and you're (sadly) back up to 40ft.

Presumably, you'd be a Musket Master to get Steady Aim and a free Rapid Reload, so you can improve the range to 40' on single shots and thus 80' with Careful Aim. Get an Oil of Long Shot to pump it up to 60'/120' and it's somewhat usable. Between Luring Cavalier and Musketeer, you get a nice bunch of features, don't ya? Hmm...

[grarrrg]

Presumably, you'd be a Musket Master to get Steady Aim and a free Rapid Reload, so you can improve the range to 40' on single shots and thus 80' with Careful Aim. Get an Oil of Long Shot to pump it up to 60'/120' and it's somewhat usable. Between Luring Cavalier and Musketeer, you get a nice bunch of features, don't ya? Hmm...

Trophy Hunter Ranger gets the same "2 range increment > Touch AC", but at level 4. Cavalier is quicker by 1 level.
They both use the language "stacks with any other range increasing...", but they also both specify "two range increments".
If you can convince your DM that that means +1 range increment, go for it.
Otherwise, there is no benefit to taking both.

[Xander96]

Ammo...how much does it cost to make?

[Crasical]

Ammo...how much does it cost to make?

A dose of black powder costs 1g if you make it yourself, and bullets or shot cost 1sp. You can make a Paper powder cartridge to reload rapidly for 1 gold, 2 silver.

[Cieyrin]

A dose of black powder costs 1g if you make it yourself, and bullets or shot cost 1sp. You can make a Paper powder cartridge to reload rapidly for 1 gold, 2 silver.

Not quite true, in that to make cartridges, you need a rank of Craft(Alchemy) and it only reduces the cost of cartridges by half, so paper cartridges cost 6 gp a piece. Still worthwhile, though.

[grarrrg]

Not quite true, in that to make cartridges, you need a rank of Craft(Alchemy) and it only reduces the cost of cartridges by half, so paper cartridges cost 6 gp a piece. Still worthwhile, though.

I thought Cartridges didn't cost anything (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/secret-stash-deed-grit)?
:smallcool:

Seriously though. It's handy for leftover Grit at the end of the day, or for "you travel for 4 days without incident".

[Cieyrin]

I thought Cartridges didn't cost anything (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/secret-stash-deed-grit)?
:smallcool:

Seriously though. It's handy for leftover Grit at the end of the day, or for "you travel for 4 days without incident".

Y'need to read that again, bullets and black powder don't cost anything through the feat. Cartridges still cost you moneys.

[grarrrg]

Y'need to read that again, bullets and black powder don't cost anything through the feat. Cartridges still cost you moneys.

No, kind sir, it is YOU who needs to read that again:

...If the bullet and black powder or the alchemical cartridges are normal shot, you do not need to pay for the ammunition. If you want to recover any other kind of ammunition,...

[Cieyrin]

No, kind sir, it is YOU who needs to read that again:

Hmm...well, that's vague. What's their definition of 'normal shot,' I wonder...

[Benly]

Hmm...well, that's vague. What's their definition of 'normal shot,' I wonder...

Presumably it means pellet cartridges and bullet cartridges (the ones that correspond to non-cartridge ammunition) as opposed to flare cartridges, dragon's breath, and entangling cartridges.

Note, however: "Spend 1 grit point while in combat to recover either 1 bullet and 1 dose of black powder or 1 alchemical cartridge from a hidden stash on your person that you had, until now, forgotten about." No end-of-day or travel-time loading up, I'm afraid.

edit: Poking around, it occurs to me that, as written, there doesn't seem to be any reason you can't apply gunslinger abilities to melee attacks with a dagger pistol, sword cane pistol, axe musket or warhammer musket. I'm sure there is a use for this.

[Xander96]

I'm anxiously awaiting the completion of this handbook. Also, has anyone else done any other handbooks? I know there is currently the Summoner. But what about the other classes?

[Lucian_Starfire]

I recently started playing pathfinder, and the gunslinger drew me right off. Ive played to level 6 pure gunslinger, and i must say im pretty pleased. My DM is leading a pretty rough epic difficulty campaign, so has allowed earlier advancement of some skills. I got to take my signature deed at level 6, and chose up close and deadly. Does UCnD apply to each attack or only the first? I know its precision damage, just wondered how many times it would apply.

Ive also taken 2 weapon fighting, rapid shot, and imp 2 weap fighting. At gunslinger 6, if my math is kosher, i get 3 attacks at -2, 2 mainhand, 1 offhand. I can also choose to take an extra attack via rapid shot, making 4 at -4. 3 mainhand, 1 offhand. With Improved 2 weapon fighting, there can be a fifth at -5. All of this is contingent on my reload times. Ive basically spent a fortune and made several unsuccessful craft checks in making a repeating gun, similar to a bolt pistol (wh40k) in the fact that the shell doesnt eject. My DM has allowed this, knowing the amount of gold and effort ive put into making the pistols. So i generally get to load prior to battle, and when i run out, i generally just take full round to reload both.

All of this to get to my second point. Ive decided to cross class into alchemist, and to keep costs low, ive been wondering about the feasibility of making alchemical cartridges with extracts in them, and just shooting party members with whatever extract i need to use. The first problem i see is the reloading fact. With my gun design not ejecting shells, i can keep the containers, and reuse at will, so i may just need to stop normal rotations altogether when i need to use an extract shell. Im thinking about at alchemist 2 taking the second arm so i dont need to stop combat in order to use an extract.

Does anyone else have insight on this?

[Cieyrin]

Up Close and Deadly is per attack. Since you got early access to Signature Deed, you can just Up Close and Deadly every attack.

As for the second, Vestigial Arm is good for having a free hand to reload both of your guns, though Rapid Reload + Paper Cartridges generally serves you better on normal pistols than on Pepperboxes, since the misfire chance is lower. Pepperboxes are good for loading your guns with special bullets, like you have with your custom guns. The ranged extract delivery I can't really say on but it sounds like a Discovery based off of Infusion and probably requiring it, so that's something to work out with your DM.

As for the feat loadout, it sounds like it'll work out fine, as I currently am running a Gunslinger through PFS who just hit 6 with a normal pistol and Rapid Shot who is just now shooting 3 shots, which gets slightly less accurate when I use Deadly Aim to increase my damage further.

[Lucian_Starfire]

Gotcha. It seems a bit cheese when i think about it from a DM standpoint, but to spare myself the cost of normal extracts, i decided to put them into shell form and take advantage of the gunsmithing feat :D

As far as deadly aim, i may look into it next feat, but for now my damage output is pretty stable. My pistols have been worked to death, and basically act as iceshot pistols, but with the bolt gun capability. So at this point for attack and damage rolls, full out, its five attacks, first hits twice due to manyshot, and then whatever hits at 3d6 (2 up close, 1 sneak attack) 1d8 for the weapon, plus 8 dex pistol training, plus 8 dex gun training, plus 4 from an armor i had crafted, and plus 3 magical from the pistols themselves. Altogether, each hit rolls at 3d6+1d8+23. Im generally pretty pleased with output. I mainly went alchemist for versatility. And mutagens make my attack and damage rolls go nuts. XD

[Morty]

This guide makes me want to play a goblin gunslinger... if only the monster race fluff in Pathfinder wasn't so Grimderp. But either way, good work.

[Cieyrin]

This guide makes me want to play a goblin gunslinger... if only the monster race fluff in Pathfinder wasn't so Grimderp. But either way, good work.

No problem. I should be getting back to work on this starting this week, as my financial situation has somewhat stabilized, which means I'm not freaking out so much about where money is coming from and thus able to do meaningful work.

[deuxhero]

What does everyone recommend doing when multiclassing and entering an archetype that grants a redundant free gun? Sell for scrap? Draw it instead of loading? Use it to switch between two types of weapons?

[Cieyrin]

What does everyone recommend doing when multiclassing and entering an archetype that grants a redundant free gun? Sell for scrap? Draw it instead of loading? Use it to switch between two types of weapons?

The free guns don't tend to sell for much, if you're allowed to sell at all. I'd keep them, as Musket Master can always use a blunderbuss to go with the musket and more pistols are never a bad thing. Having a musket on a pistol focused character can be helpful for that first round when you haven't reached optimal range.

[deuxhero]

I looked at Heirloom Weapon trait and thought Gunslingers would actually keep their weapon 1-20, so it could be a good trait.

Then I saw it only gives a: proficiency b: bonus to AoO (which you can't make) c: Combat maneuvers (which I don't know of any you can do with a gun).
:smallfrown:

[Cieyrin]

I looked at Heirloom Weapon trait and thought Gunslingers would actually keep their weapon 1-20, so it could be a good trait.

Then I saw it only gives a: proficiency b: bonus to AoO (which you can't make) c: Combat maneuvers (which I don't know of any you can do with a gun).
:smallfrown:

Heirloom Weapon hasn't been as good since the errata/2nd printing. Rich Parents is still nice for picking up an extra pistol, though.

[grarrrg]

I looked at Heirloom Weapon trait and thought Gunslingers would actually keep their weapon 1-20, so it could be a good trait.

Then I saw it only gives .....bonus to AoO (which you can't make) ....

Snap Shot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snap-shot-combat) would like a word with you.
(and Improved (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-snap-shot-combat)/Greater (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-snap-shot-combat) versions)

[Crasical]

Sooo... How does one use Gun Tank, work, exactly? I've never played the game at very high levels, so I don't know how much dexterity I should have or be expecting to work with at different level. It seems like by the time a mithral fullplate is affordable, (maybe 8th level?) the Gun Tank will have more dex bonus than the +5 allowed by the suit.

[grarrrg]

Sooo... How does one use Gun Tank, work, exactly? I've never played the game at very high levels, so I don't know how much dexterity I should have or be expecting to work with at different level. It seems like by the time a mithral fullplate is affordable, (maybe 8th level?) the Gun Tank will have more dex bonus than the +5 allowed by the suit.

First off, shouldn't Armor Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/gun-tank) top off at +5? They seem to have forgotten about the Level 20 Bonus feat (and being a multiple of 4....).
Then again, they copy/pasted from Fighter, and added +1 to the level, and at 19 Fighter got "armor mastery".
Still pretty dumb.


Most of the Gun Tank's features just need to be "wearing" armor, it doesn't need to be Heavy (although it is an option), a Mithril Breastplate would have a +7 max at level 8, much more reasonable.
Also, Bullet Deflection increases your AC vs. Firearm/Splash attacks. As it is fairly difficult to increase your Touch AC, this can be quite handy in a "LOTS of Guns" type game.

As far as Shields go, you still need a free hand to reload, so the only real option is the Buckler, which leaves you hand free w/a -1 attack penalty (unless you can grow another arm...). And I wouldn't recommend using a Tower Shield EVER (not even with Tower Shield Specialist Fighter).

[Cieyrin]

First off, shouldn't Armor Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/gun-tank) top off at +5? They seem to have forgotten about the Level 20 Bonus feat (and being a multiple of 4....).
Then again, they copy/pasted from Fighter, and added +1 to the level, and at 19 Fighter got "armor mastery".
Still pretty dumb.

It should but I've noticed more and more that Ultimate Combat seems to have been a bit rushed to get out the door on time, so there's errors here and there like that that a longer proofreading period would have taken care of.


Most of the Gun Tank's features just need to be "wearing" armor, it doesn't need to be Heavy (although it is an option), a Mithril Breastplate would have a +7 max at level 8, much more reasonable.
Also, Bullet Deflection increases your AC vs. Firearm/Splash attacks. As it is fairly difficult to increase your Touch AC, this can be quite handy in a "LOTS of Guns" type game.

As far as Shields go, you still need a free hand to reload, so the only real option is the Buckler, which leaves you hand free w/a -1 attack penalty (unless you can grow another arm...). And I wouldn't recommend using a Tower Shield EVER (not even with Tower Shield Specialist Fighter).

You only have the attack penalty with the buckler if you use a melee weapon with that hand, bows, crossbows and firearms don't suffer the penalty, so there isn't an issue there. And I agree on the Tower Shield, except if you're a Tower Shield Specialist, Phalanx Soldier or Armor Master, and then it may work but that's pretty specific builds, none of which I'd want to put on a Gun Tank.

[Lemmy]

Hey there, guys! 1st time posting here (Although I've been lurking for a couple years now)

Right now I'm wondering if using 2 archetypes (Pistolero and Mysterious Stranger) would be effective. I think it's possible to take both of them

Maybe I'm missing something, but the way I see, this way the gunslinger get the best of both worlds, he still adds his DEX modifier to damage (only when using pistols, but i don't think that's much of a problem) and can add his CHA as well for 1 grit point. (If he uses the Signature Trick feat, he adds both of them all the time, as long as he has grit, right?)

Am I correct in this or did I get something wrong?

[grarrrg]

Hey there, guys! 1st time posting here (Although I've been lurking for a couple years now)

Right now I'm wondering if using 2 archetypes (Pistolero and Mysterious Stranger) would be effective. I think it's possible to take both of them



Technically, by RAW, you can take them both.
But it's fairly obvious that Pistol Training was supposed to replace Gun Training, making the Archetypes incompatible with each other.
It's BEGGING for errata.

My recommendation is go Pistolero (or normal, or Musket....) and take a 2 level dip into Trophy Hunter Ranger. You gain your choice of "any 1st level Gunslinger deed". Focused Aim is a 1st level deed.
(if you REALLY want to pile on the damage, see the 2nd version of my Gundolon build in this thread)

[Lemmy]

Wow...
That. looks. Awesome!!!:smalleek:
I'm deeply ashamed I didn't see such awesomeness!

Questions:

If I have the feat multi/two-weapon fighting and my eidolon got, let's say, 6 arms, do all of them take the -2 penalty or does the penalty increase for each arm?

Do I get EXTRA 6 arms (in addition to the Summoner's) or do I get 6 arms total? (I'm guessing I only get to use the Eidolon's limbs, but one can dream...)

I'm about to play a campaign starting at 6th level, You think at this points it's better to focus on Summoner or Gunslinger? I'm thinking if I get to convince my DM to allow "Mysterious Pistolero" I'll go Gun 5/Sum 1... if not, I'm guessing Gun 3/Sum 3. Maybe get those Paladin levels later. What do you think?

BTW... is it me or at higher levels I get to attack the Anciet Red Dragon (touch AC: 4) about 10 times, probably hit all the attacks, and kill him before he even moves? I'd love to see my DM's face to that! :smallbiggrin:

[Cieyrin]

Technically, by RAW, you can take them both.
But it's fairly obvious that Pistol Training was supposed to replace Gun Training, making the Archetypes incompatible with each other.
It's BEGGING for errata.

My recommendation is go Pistolero (or normal, or Musket....) and take a 2 level dip into Trophy Hunter Ranger. You gain your choice of "any 1st level Gunslinger deed". Focused Aim is a 1st level deed.
(if you REALLY want to pile on the damage, see the 2nd version of my Gundolon build in this thread)

I have a preference for Rogue with Extra Rogue Talent to rush into the Grit Talent to pick up that 1st level deed and 1-3 grit, due to that the Grit talent doesn't check if you have a Grit pool already, so you get Amateur Gunslinger and that free 1st level Deed (including Focused Shot), a Grit feat of your choice (including Extra Grit), as well as +1d6 Sneak Attack and Evasion, which you can put to good use well before Evasive kicks in.


If I have the feat multi/two-weapon fighting and my eidolon got, let's say, 6 arms, do all of them take the -2 penalty or does the penalty increase for each arm?

It's a flat -2 when you two/multi-weapon fight, provided you use light weapons, which it isn't clear if pistols are or not, at least by RAW. They're fairly comparable to hand or light crossbows, which are light weapons for two-weapon fighting.


Do I get EXTRA 6 arms (in addition to the Summoner's) or do I get 6 arms total? (I'm guessing I only get to use the Eidolon's limbs, but one can dream...)

Nope, you just get the arms you buy or get from your Eidolon.


I'm about to play a campaign starting at 6th level, You think at this points it's better to focus on Summoner or Gunslinger? I'm thinking if I get to convince my DM to allow "Mysterious Pistolero" I'll go Gun 5/Sum 1... if not, I'm guessing Gun 3/Sum 3. Maybe get those Paladin levels later. What do you think?

I'd go for Gun 3/Sum 3, possibly as a Half-Elf so you can get an extra Evolution point and Multitalented to get Favored Class bonus on both classes so you have 6 Evolution points for 2 Limbs(Arms) and Ability Increase(Dex) and Gunslinger Initiative. Otherwise, if you can get Mysterious Pistolero to fly, I'd still go Half-Elf to pick up that extra Evolution point for 4 Evolution points for Limbs(Arms) and Ability Increase(Dex).


BTW... is it me or at higher levels I get to attack the Anciet Red Dragon (touch AC: 4) about 10 times, probably hit all the attacks, and kill him before he even moves? I'd love to see my DM's face to that! :smallbiggrin:

This all hinges on if it comes in range, which is difficult with 20' range increment and it not having a need to land if it can just strafe with its breath weapon. If you can get it to land, it's somewhat more feasible.

[Lemmy]

First of all; thanks for the answer, it's really helpful! I've no expirience with gunslinger builds yet.

Second: Sorry if I mess up the quotes. Noob playgrounder here ^^


I have a preference for Rogue with Extra Rogue Talent to rush into the Grit Talent to pick up that 1st level deed and 1-3 grit, due to that the Grit talent doesn't check if you have a Grit pool already, so you get Amateur Gunslinger and that free 1st level Deed (including Focused Shot), a Grit feat of your choice (including Extra Grit), as well as +1d6 Sneak Attack and Evasion, which you can put to good use well before Evasive kicks in.

Ah, didn't think about that... Sneak Attack/Evasion would be nice. Makes me consider build a multi-armed ninja-dolon. But I'll leave that for another game.


It's a flat -2 when you two/multi-weapon fight, provided you use light weapons, which it isn't clear if pistols are or not, at least by RAW. They're fairly comparable to hand or light crossbows, which are light weapons for two-weapon fighting.

Thats great news! DM says he considers firearms light weapons, for the exact same reason you said, they are not very different from light crossbows mechanically-wise (is this last word written right???)


Nope, you just get the arms you buy or get from your Eidolon.

As I expected... No matter! 6~8 arms is still a lot of bullets per round!


I'd go for Gun 3/Sum 3, possibly as a Half-Elf so you can get an extra Evolution point and Multitalented to get Favored Class bonus on both classes so you have 6 Evolution points for 2 Limbs(Arms) and Ability Increase(Dex) and Gunslinger Initiative. Otherwise, if you can get Mysterious Pistolero to fly, I'd still go Half-Elf to pick up that extra Evolution point for 4 Evolution points for Limbs(Arms) and Ability Increase(Dex).

I was thinking about going human for the extra feat and skill points. But now that you mention it, for a more summoner focused build, those extra evolution points would really help.

I'm thinking there's a fair chance of the Mysterious Pistolero being allowed... The party supposedly has a druid, an oracle and a witch (or magus), at least if nobody changes their mind 'til saturday. I'll probably be the least of the DM's concerns. He even said Tier 3 classes and below get +2 skill points/ level (+4 for fighters). Besides, technically, I'm not breaking (or even bending) any rules. Let's see how things work out.


This all hinges on if it comes in range, which is difficult with 20' range increment and it not having a need to land if it can just strafe with its breath weapon. If you can get it to land, it's somewhat more feasible.

Well, if by level 14+ the friggin' wizard doesn't cast fly or something like that on me, so I can shoot the beast down, I'll leave the big lizard alone and blast the stupid old man carrying dusty books! :smallamused:

Which reminds me... Is there a "wings" or "flight" evolution? If so, is it worth taking or should I just focus on more arms/DEX and leave the flying to items/caster support?

And I must say: I love my dice!:smallbiggrin: I rolled 18 18 16 12 10 and 8. Guess it's STR 8 DEX 18 CON 16, INT 12, WIS 10 and CHA 21 (2 racial + 1 for character level).

Edit: Aaaaand... I messed up the quotes... No surprises there.

[Cieyrin]

I'm thinking there's a fair chance of the Mysterious Pistolero being allowed... The party supposedly has a druid, an oracle and a witch (or magus), at least if nobody changes their mind 'til saturday. I'll probably be the least of the DM's concerns. He even said Tier 3 classes and below get +2 skill points/ level (+4 for fighters). Besides, technically, I'm not breaking (or even bending) any rules. Let's see how things work out.

That'll help with your Gunslinger side, though not the Summoner side, given Summoners are T2.


Which reminds me... Is there a "wings" or "flight" evolution? If so, is it worth taking or should I just focus on more arms/DEX and leave the flying to items/caster support?

There is a Flight evolution, though you can't select it till 5th level. Flight with wings is 2 Evolution points, Flight without wings (making it supernatural and gives you Perfect maneuverability) is 4 evolution points. You may be better off with a wand of Fly, though, given you'll have enough problems with multiclassing keeping your Synthesist side kind of weak and scraping up every bit of Evolution points you can get your hands on.


And I must say: I love my dice!:smallbiggrin: I rolled 18 18 16 12 10 and 8. Guess it's STR 8 DEX 18 CON 16, INT 12, WIS 10 and CHA 21 (2 racial + 1 for character level).

Edit: Aaaaand... I messed up the quotes... No surprises there.

Only issue with where you have your stats is, as a Synthesist, you replace your physical stats with the Eidolons, so your 18 and 16 will not get to play as much, hence why I emphasized boosting Dex to get it up to par while wearing your Eidolon. Still, it can be useful for when you're not making like Manspider with guns.


Announcement!
The Gunslinger's Handbook finally has an update, Skills are up. After I've had dinner, I'll be working on Traits and possibly Feats, if my fey mood keeps with me. Otherwise, it should get added sometime this week, as well as thoughts on firearms.

[grarrrg]

Announcement!
The Gunslinger's Handbook finally has an update, Skills are up. After I've had dinner, I'll be working on Traits and possibly Feats, if my fey mood keeps with me. Otherwise, it should get added sometime this week, as well as thoughts on firearms.

AHHH RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!! THE APOCALYPSE IS UPON US!!!
REPENT! REPENT!!
*wink*


Seriously though, can anyone tell me why you would ever learn/cast "Weaken Powder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/weaken-powder)" instead of "Damp Powder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/damp-powder)"?

Both spells have the same classes that can cast them, same school, same requirements, same,same,same...Only the effects are different.

Weaken Powder "range increment is halved and the firer takes a –2 penalty on damage rolls"
Damp Powder "attempt to fire that ammunition fails, with no chance for misfire, and the user must then take a full-round action to clear the weapon before reloading and firing"

Both require a DC 16 spellcraft to spot, and a Standard Action to clear 'before' being fired.

Seriously, WHY would you use Weaken Powder?

[Cieyrin]

Seriously though, can anyone tell me why you would ever learn/cast "Weaken Powder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/weaken-powder)" instead of "Damp Powder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/damp-powder)"?

Both spells have the same classes that can cast them, same school, same requirements, same,same,same...Only the effects are different.

Weaken Powder "range increment is halved and the firer takes a –2 penalty on damage rolls"
Damp Powder "attempt to fire that ammunition fails, with no chance for misfire, and the user must then take a full-round action to clear the weapon before reloading and firing"

Both require a DC 16 spellcraft to spot, and a Standard Action to clear 'before' being fired.

Seriously, WHY would you use Weaken Powder?

Got me. Why was Prone Shooter published? No one knows!

EDIT: Traits are now up. I also finally found my favorite art from UC, which now graces as the leading in picture of Traits. :smallsmile:

[Lemmy]

Only issue with where you have your stats is, as a Synthesist, you replace your physical stats with the Eidolons, so your 18 and 16 will not get to play as much, hence why I emphasized boosting Dex to get it up to par while wearing your Eidolon. Still, it can be useful for when you're not making like Manspider with guns.

Problem is, I need at least a DEX 15 for TWF. besides, in case of AMF or Banish, I'd still have some firepower. CON is nice, since the Eidolons HP add to yours (I think)

I guess I'll go STR 8, DEX 16, CON 12, WIS 18, INT 10, CHA 21




Announcement!
The Gunslinger's Handbook finally has an update, Skills are up. After I've had dinner, I'll be working on Traits and possibly Feats, if my fey mood keeps with me. Otherwise, it should get added sometime this week, as well as thoughts on firearms.


Cool! I've been waiting for this!

There is a pretty good trait at Dwarves of Golarion, it's named Glory of Old. It gives a +1 bonus to all saves made to resist spells, spell-like abilities and poison. Oddly, it's a regional trait with no race requirement.
Maybe there are some half-dwarves around...
A solid for any class.

Also, is Killer really that useful? It adds your weapons hit modifier on a critical, but oly after the damage is multiplied. When you deal 3x or 4x more damage is a +5 that much of a difference?

I personally got Reactionary/Knack for Magic for the Gundolon build and Reactionary/Glory of Old for the full gunslinger build.

[deuxhero]

Dark Sun actually had such a thing. Worse backstory wise than Half-Orcs.

[Cieyrin]

There is a pretty good trait at Dwarves of Golarion, it's named Glory of Old. It gives a +1 bonus to all saves made to resist spells, spell-like abilities and poison. Oddly, it's a regional trait with no race requirement.
Maybe there are some half-dwarves around...
A solid for any class.

I'm only covering the APG traits, which are the most commonly available. Not that Glory of Old is bad or anything, I like it on Dwarves with Steel-Souled, possibly Superstitious Barbarians.


Also, is Killer really that useful? It adds your weapons hit modifier on a critical, but oly after the damage is multiplied. When you deal 3x or 4x more damage is a +5 that much of a difference?

There aren't really any other traits that do damage with firearms. I suppose Anatomist may be more worthwhile for comboing with Critical Focus to negate Dead Shot's crit penalty and confirm crits that more often in general. Also the fact that I'm a firm believer in there is no such thing as too much dakka, which Killer provides ably.

EDIT:
Dark Sun actually had such a thing. Worse backstory wise than Half-Orcs.

Ah c'mon, there's nothing wrong with Muls, other than they're all sterile. :smalltongue:

[Lemmy]

Ah, I see...

I just pointed out the Glory of Old trait because I thought it was worth mentioning, mostly because being regional, it doesn't take the spot of valuable Combat traits.


there is no such thing as too much dakka, which Killer provides ably.

You make a very good point. :smallbiggrin:

Thanks agains for the awesome guide!

[grarrrg]

MUHUHUHAHAHAHAHAAH!!

I am en evil genius!!

I have figured out a way to Two-Weapon-Fight/Reload WITHOUT resorting to Spells/Extra Arms.

More elaboration will be added to my mini-reload guide in this thread, but here's the important bits:
Free Actions can be taken during a Full-Round Action
and:

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.

Write up is done.
Link to post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12589453#post12589453)

[Cieyrin]

MUHUHUHAHAHAHAHAAH!!

I am en evil genius!!

I have figured out a way to Two-Weapon-Fight/Reload WITHOUT resorting to Spells/Extra Arms.

More elaboration will be added to my mini-reload guide in this thread, but here's the important bits:
Free Actions can be taken during a Full-Round Action
and:

I guess I'll wait in rapt attention, o' master of guns akimbo. :smallwink:

I should be getting into feats tomorrow, methinks, and doing it in parts, divided by feat type so people have an idea of what they can grab up with Gunslinger bonus feats.

[grarrrg]

I guess I'll wait in rapt attention, o' master of guns akimbo. :smallwink:

It is done.
Linky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12589453#post12589453)

[Cieyrin]

It is done.
Linky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12589453#post12589453)

Hmm, I think a wand of Extended Reloading Hands would help quite a bit, since each charge lasts a minute a gun. Definitely high on a Mysterious Stranger's list of priorities, methinks.

Also, don't forget about Lightning Reload for loading one of your guns with whatever round you need, not just cartridges. I need to change Lightning Reload's grade b/c of that fact, since, as nice as paper cartridges are, having a load of specialized bullets (+1 holy dragonbane for shooting that dragon out of the sky, for example :smallwink:) can be a nice ace up your sleeve without being forced into loading a pepperbox full of them.

[Baka Nikujaga]

http://i54.tinypic.com/200whs1.jpg
I stopped being lazy and decided to copy and paste my build over. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out any fancy names for it or somesuch. Currently, this build is still missing two feats and two talents.

Race: Halfling
- Swift as Shadows
- Underfoot
Ability Scores:
Str: 10 -> 8
Dex: 14 -> 16
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 16 -> 18

Level|Class| BAB |Fort|Ref|Will|Skills|Class Features|Feats
1 | Gunslinger (1) | +1 | +2 | +2 | +0 | Acrobatics, Bluff, Craft (Alchemy), Stealth | Deeds (Deadeye, Focused Aim, Gunslinger's Dodge), Grit, Mysterious Stranger | Gunsmith, Dodge
2 | Rogue (1) | +1 | +2 | +4 | +0 | Acrobatics, Bluff, Escape Artist Linguistics, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Use Magic Device | Accuracy, Sneak Attack +1d6, Sniper, Scout | None
3 | Rogue (2) | +2 | +2 | +5 | +0 | Acrobatics, Bluff, Escape Artist, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Use Magic Device (2) | Evasion, Rogue Talent (Sniper's Eye) | Mobility
4 | Rogue (3) | +3 | +3 | +5 | +1 | Acrobatics, Bluff, Escape Artist, Linguistics, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Use Magic Device | Sneak Attack +2d6, Deadly Range +10ft. | None
5 | Rogue (4) | +4 | +3 | +6 | +1 | Acrobatics, Bluff, Escape Artist, Linguistics, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Use Magic Device | Scout's Charge, Rogue Talent (Grit) | Amateur Gunslinger, Deft Shootist Deed, Rapid Reload (Double-Barreled Pistol)
6 | Fighter (1) | +5 | +5 | +6 | +1 | Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Use Magic Device | | Quick Draw
7 | Rogue (5) | +5 | +4 | +6 | +1 | Acrobatics, Bluff, Escape Artist, Linguistics, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Use Magic Device | Sneak Attack +3d6 | Two-Weapon Fighting
8 | Rogue (6) | +6 | +6 | +7 | +2 | Acrobatics, Bluff, Escape Artist, Linguistics, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Use Magic Device | Deadly Range +20ft., Rogue Talent* | None
9 | Rogue (7) | +7 | +6| +7 | +2 | Acrobatics, Bluff, Escape Artist, Linguistics, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Use Magic Device | Sneak Attack +4d6 | Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10 | Rogue (8) | +8 | +6 | +8 | +2 | Acrobatics, Bluff, Escape Artist, Linguistics, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Use Magic Device | Rogue Talent*, Skirmisher | None
11 | Fighter (2) | +9 | +7 | +8 | +2 | Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Use Magic Device | | *, *
12 | Gunslinger (2) | +10 | +8 | +9 | +2 | Acrobatics, Bluff, Stealth, Use Magic Device | Lucky +1 | None

[grarrrg]

I'm in the process of 2 new builds to submit.
One is a Gunslinger/Alchemist/Inquisitor
The other is a Gun-Fu build, relying mainly on Gunslinger and Monk.


The Alquisinger (need a useable name)
Gunslinger 5/Alchemist 3/Inquisitor 12

Archetypes are chosen more on what we DON'T need from our classes:

Musket Master, yes, Musket Master. You'll see... you'll see...

Vivisectionist, we don't plan on using Bombs, and only need 11 Int for Extracts anyway.

Spellbreaker, Teamwork Feats aren't the best for Ranged attacks, and the Save boosts are nice.
Black Powder Inquisition, we regain the use of all Firearms, and any caster we hit gets a penalty on Concentration checks (although most any Inquisition/Domain will do)

Gunslinger 5, gives Rapid Reload as a bonus feat, lets us Reload Muskets faster, and Dex-to-damage with Muskets.
Alchemist 3, 2d6 Sneak Attack, optional +Dex/-Wis Mutagen the Discovery will be Vestigial Arm (and we'll grab the Extra Discovery Feat for the 2nd extra Arm)
Inquisitor 12, the main draws here are Greater Bane for +2 to-hit and +4d6 damage when we want it. We get 2 Judgements at a time, we will be using the +5 damage option the most, the other depends on the situation (Fast Healing 5, +3 all Saves, [choose an energy] Resist 10, and/or Bypass Damage Reduction). We also get 4th level Divine spells, and Stalwart (Evasion for Fort/Will)

Race is currently up for grabs (will finalize once the build is farther along)
Human, +2 any, Bonus feat
Half-Elf, +2 any, 2 favored classes
Drow Noble (yeah right...only if we volunteer to be our DM's Slave for 3 months....)
Tengu/Udine for a Medium race with +Dex/+Wis

Basic strategy:
Dual Wielding Muskets, HOO-RAH!
Stacking as much bonus damage as possible (Sneak Attack/Bane/Judgement/Dexterity)
We also wind up with a lot more Skill points than a typical Gunslinger, and 4th level Divine spells. I'm sure I can think up something to do with them...



Gun-Fu
Gunslinger ?/Monk ?

Gunslinger will be either Pistolero or Musket Master
Monk will be 'normal', or probably Zen Archer (for the Ranged bonus feat list, and free Point-Blank Master at level 3)
The idea with taking Monk is that we get Wis-to-AC (Touch AC at that), and get decent Unarmed damage, combined with taking Combat Reflexes, to be a passable Melee threat as well.

[Cieyrin]

Grit Rogue Build

The things that pop out to me is that you need the Firearms Training talent before Grit talent, regardless of whether you have proficiency or not. It can be useful if you go Pistolero or Musket Master to get full proficiency, though. Extra Rogue Talent picked up at the same level will zoom you straight there. Also, you have a free deed from Amateur Gunslinger, which I'd suggest you choose Quick Clear or Up Close and Deadly.

As for your extra talents and feats, since you're going Deft Shootist anyways, I'd suggest pursuing Snap Shot, Combat Reflexes and Precise Shot, the last since you're going to be dealing with that melee penalty quite a bit. Combat Trick and shoving around your Fighter levels can help you get there, as well as potentially replacing Quick Draw, as TWF makes it so you can draw both guns as one move action or as part of a move. The Snap Shot talent can also be very beneficial to you.


Gun-Fu
Gunslinger ?/Monk ?

Gunslinger will be either Pistolero or Musket Master
Monk will be 'normal', or probably Zen Archer (for the Ranged bonus feat list, and free Point-Blank Master at level 3)
The idea with taking Monk is that we get Wis-to-AC (Touch AC at that), and get decent Unarmed damage, combined with taking Combat Reflexes, to be a passable Melee threat as well.

Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes are definite wants for a Gun/Monk. Also, call the build John Preston (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0238380/). :smallwink:

[grarrrg]

Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes are definite wants for a Gun/Monk. Also, call the build John Preston (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0238380/). :smallwink:

No can do.

Spike Spiegel is already confirmed.

[Cieyrin]

No can do.

Spike Spiegel is already confirmed.

You need to be Flowing Monk, then.

[deuxhero]

Announcement!
The Gunslinger's Handbook finally has an update, Skills are up. After I've had dinner, I'll be working on Traits and possibly Feats, if my fey mood keeps with me. Otherwise, it should get added sometime this week, as well as thoughts on firearms.


Any plans?

[Baka Nikujaga]

The things that pop out to me is that you need the Firearms Training talent before Grit talent, regardless of whether you have proficiency or not. It can be useful if you go Pistolero or Musket Master to get full proficiency, though. Extra Rogue Talent picked up at the same level will zoom you straight there. Also, you have a free deed from Amateur Gunslinger, which I'd suggest you choose Quick Clear or Up Close and Deadly.

http://i54.tinypic.com/200whs1.jpg
I had originally thought so as well, but the people on the Paizo forum said that taking Firearms Training isn't necessary to qualify for the Grit Talent in this particular instance (hence why I didn't have it listed). I could try posing the question again on their forum but I'm not sure if I'll get more than a single reply.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2nsz4av.jpg
I can't remember why I had Quick Draw though...this was a Weapon Cords build after all...

[grarrrg]

You need to be Flowing Monk, then.

(Mostly) Not a problem.
The main things I want from Monk are:
Unarmed Damage (and DOESN'T lose Still Mind if I want Monastic Training)
AC bonus
Evasion
Bonus Feats

Flowing has everything I want, with the only exception that it loses its 2nd feat.

That, and none of the Archetypes are necessarily better (other than the feat).


Fun Fact: The feat Monastic Training is best taken with EXACTLY 4 levels of Monk.

[Crasical]

What are your suggestions for a Gunslinger looking to play up the tinkerer/inventor aspect of being one of the heralds of firearms? I was planning on taking Master Craftsman and the two feats it allows to allow my Pistolero Tank engineer to improve his weapons...

1. Rapid reload
H1. Two-Weapon Fighting
3. ???
G4. ???
5. Master Craftsman
7. Craft arms/Armor
G8. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
9. Craft Wonderous Item

But I'm seeing both ITWF and Craft magic Arms/Armor arriving two levels late... Should I be worried?

[Cieyrin]

Any plans?

Like many plans of mice and men, some are doomed to fail. I'll see what I can get done.


http://i54.tinypic.com/200whs1.jpg
I had originally thought so as well, but the people on the Paizo forum said that taking Firearms Training isn't necessary to qualify for the Grit Talent in this particular instance (hence why I didn't have it listed). I could try posing the question again on their forum but I'm not sure if I'll get more than a single reply.

I'd love to see it otherwise as well, I'm just not seeing the rules support that. It's a reasonable houserule, though, definitely.


http://i54.tinypic.com/2nsz4av.jpg
I can't remember why I had Quick Draw though...this was a Weapon Cords build after all...

It's definitely a flavorful feat, though it'd work better if you got to Gunslinger Initiative, which specifically boosts Quick Draw.


What are your suggestions for a Gunslinger looking to play up the tinkerer/inventor aspect of being one of the heralds of firearms? I was planning on taking Master Craftsman and the two feats it allows to allow my Pistolero Tank engineer to improve his weapons...

1. Rapid reload
H1. Two-Weapon Fighting
3. ???
G4. ???
5. Master Craftsman
7. Craft arms/Armor
G8. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
9. Craft Wonderous Item

But I'm seeing both ITWF and Craft magic Arms/Armor arriving two levels late... Should I be worried?

A focus in craft skills and maxing Knowledge(Engineering) would definitely help with that. You may also want to pursue Master Alchemist.

Craft Magic Arms & Armor showing up later is typical for going the Master Craftsman route, so I wouldn't worry about that. I do wonder about your plans to TWF as a Pistolero Tank, as it takes a bit of trickery to work out effectively. On the other hand, since you're going crafting focused, Improved TWF being a bit behind and getting it at the same time as rogues isn't breaking the bank by any means.

[grarrrg]

Here's my rough outline for the Gun-Fu/Spike build. It is currently leaning towards "Flavor", but I can add a section at the end for "more optimal choices".

Looking for Feedback/ideas/oversights

Human (cause Spike is a human, duh)
End levels will be Gunslinger (Musket Master) 13/Monk (Flowing) 4/ undecided 3 (more Gun? more Monk? other?)
Yes, I know Spike used a Pistol, not a Rifle, but we are pretty tight on Feats, and Musket Master gets Rapid Reload as a Bonus.

Levels taken as:
Gunslinger 1, for the obvious reasons
Monk 2, for the general Monk-goodness
Gunslinger +4, Dex to Damage
Monk +1 (or +2) for Still mind (for Monastic Training), may go ahead and grab Monk 4 so we can get our Ki Pool started.
Gunslinger +8, Bleeding Wound and qualify for Signature Deed at 11, bonus feat at 12, and Immune all Misfires at 13
(Monk +1 if we stopped at level 3 before)

Approx Stats, asssuming 15 point buy
Str 10 (using Weapon Finesse on our unarmed strikes, while we don't care about increasing damage, we do not want a penalty either)
Dex 22 (16 base, +2 Human, +4 levels)
Con 12 (planning on being 'near' melee)
Int 8 (the Human Skill bonus cancels out the penalty)
Wis 14
Cha 10

Feats (in approx. order)
We have 2 feat-chains going on
Dodge>Mobility>Deft Shootist (the only feat that lets you RELOAD without provoking)
and Point-Blank>Weapon Focus>Rapid Shot>Snap Shot

1 Dodge
1 Mobility (human)
1 Rapid Reload (gunslinger)
2 Weapon Finesse (monk)
3 Deft Shootist Deed
5 Point-Blank Shot
6 Weapon Focus (gunslinger)
7 Rapid Shot
9 Snap Shot
11 Combat Reflexes
12 Improved Critical (gunslinger)
13 Improved Snap Shot
15 Signature Deed > Bleeding Wound
16 Greater Snap Shot (gunslinger)
17 ??
What else should be here?

Class choices to fill the last 3 levels>
Fighter for the Feats, possibly taken earlier in the build, but then we further delay Bleeding Wound deed....
More Gunslinger, there are some nice Deeds at 15 we can snag, as well as the Bonus feat at 16
More Monk, a few Passive bonuses can be had here, nothing major.
Other??

[Cieyrin]

I don't think Spike was particularly dumb or crude, as he could talk his way out of situations at least somewhat, making me think he had decent social skills, like Bluff and Sense Motive. Probably not the sharpest tool on the Bebop but definitely not brain dead. I'd leave his Int and Cha at 10. He's definitely Dex and Wis focused but he doesn't have any significant weaknesses, either.

I'd raise Wis to get more out of Flowing Dodge and to his AC in general. I'd also get Monk up to 5 for Elusive target.

[grarrrg]

I don't think Spike was particularly dumb or crude, as he could talk his way out of situations at least somewhat, making me think he had decent social skills, like Bluff and Sense Motive. Probably not the sharpest tool on the Bebop but definitely not brain dead. I'd leave his Int and Cha at 10. He's definitely Dex and Wis focused but he doesn't have any significant weaknesses, either.

I'd raise Wis to get more out of Flowing Dodge and to his AC in general. I'd also get Monk up to 5 for Elusive target.

For the stats, some of the main problems are that I want to do it as a "low-ball" 15 point-buy, while still being an effective build, while still yet representing the character.
Not all 3 are going to happen.

Ideally Spike would probably be closer to
Str 12 (slightly above average, his fighting style is more Dex based)
Dex 20+ (as high as possible, AC/dodging, Ranged weapons, etc...)
Con 18 (dude can take a serious beating)
Int 10 (much more "street smart" than "book smart")
Wis 16 (then again, I think a 16 is still pushing it...)
Cha 12 (he thinks he's all that and a bag of chips, but...)

I guess a more realistic "budget" Spike would be closer to
Str 10
Dex 16 (18 after racials, can't afford to go higher)
Con 12 (still a boost, but less so)
Int 8 (with the Human Skill bonus he breaks even Skill-wise)
Wis 14
Cha 10


What about the Feats?
The problem is that there is a sizable bottle-neck right around level 8-to-10.
It's when Deft Shootist comes online, the ideal point to take Improved Critical, and the absolute earliest we can get Snap Shot online.
I feel Deft Shootist has priority, but is there something else I can move around?
Snap Shot is also being quite the pain with, essentially, FOUR required feats (Point-Blank, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, and Combat Reflexes).
I'm thinking I'm going to have to add 2 levels of Fighter just after Gunslinger 5 just for the feats (Mobile Fighter and Tactician are the current front-runners).

[rezplz]

After reading through this handbook, I decided to make a halfling double-barreled pistol gunslinger as my back-up character. My only question is, I hear a lot of people saying that using cartridges to load reduced the loading time. I looked everywhere I could think of on the srd, and the only reference I could find about that was in the lightning reload deed - and in that case it doesn't stack with rapid reload anyway, and is only one load per round.

If somebody could link me to the right spot that says that cartridges will reduce the loading time from standard to move for a pistol, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

Edit: nvm, found it. herpaderp.

[Baka Nikujaga]

http://i40.tinypic.com/jgqgrb.jpg
For you!

Alchemical Cartridges: An alchemical cartridge is a prepared bundle of black powder with a bullet or pellets, sometimes with more exotic material added, which is then wrapped in paper or cloth and sealed with beeswax, lard, or tallow. There are many types of alchemical cartridges, the simplest being the paper cartridge—a simple mix of black powder and either pellets or a bullet. Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action), but they tend to be unstable. The misfire value of a weapon firing an alchemical cartridge increases as listed in each entry.

Dragon's Breath Cartridge: This cartridge contains alchemical compounds that, when fired, produce a cone of fire instead of the normal attack of a one-handed or two-handed firearm with the scatter weapon quality. The nonmagical flame deals 2d6 points of fire damage to all targets within the cone of the scatter firearm (DC 15 Reflex save for half). These cartridges cannot be used in firearms that don't have the scatter weapon quality. Because this ammunition forces a saving throw instead of making an attack roll, the misfire rules are slightly different. If you roll a 1 with either of the damage dice, the firearm misfires.

Entangling Shot Cartridge: This mix of black powder and an alchemically treated resin strong enough to survive the shot can only be loaded into a blunderbuss, a dragon pistol, or other scatter weapon. It deals half damage to those hit by a cone attack made with this weapon, but any creature hit by the shot must succeed at a DC 15 Reflex saving throw or become entangled for 2d4 rounds. An entangling shot cartridge increases the firearm's misfire value by 2.

Flare Cartridge: When a flare cartridge hits its target, it only deals half damage, but the creature struck is blinded for 1 round (Fort DC 15 reduces this to dazzled), and creatures within a 20-foot burst are dazzled for 1 round (Fort DC 15 negates the effect). Flare cartridges are also useful for sending up signal flares. Firing a flare cartridge increases the firearm's misfire value by 2 unless it is fired from a blunderbuss or a dragon pistol, in which case doing so only increases the firearm's misfire value by 1. Flares can only be used to attack single creatures; they do not work as a shot for a cone scatter attack.

Paper Cartridge: This simple mix of black powder and either pellets or a bullet increases the misfire value by 1.

Salt Shot Cartridge: This mix of black powder and rock salt can only be loaded into a blunderbuss, a dragon pistol, or other scatter weapon. It deals nonlethal instead of lethal damage, and increases the misfire value by 1. You can only use it with a scatter weapon's cone attack.

-- Firearms (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/combat/firearms.html)

[rezplz]

That's even better than the thing I found a minute ago... after half an hour of looking haha. Thanks. I'm excited to wreck faces and show my DM what a free-action loading, double-barreled DEX/CHA gunslinger can do. : D

Thinking of taking rapid reload so at 3rd level, I can get 3 attacks, using both barrels with each shot, for 6 attacks all with CHA to damage. With touch attacks the horrid (-6) penalties shouldn't matter too much, right?

[Baka Nikujaga]

http://i54.tinypic.com/200whs1.jpg
It depends on how high your bonus to hit is...and if you trust a lower number.

[Cieyrin]

That's even better than the thing I found a minute ago... after half an hour of looking haha. Thanks. I'm excited to wreck faces and show my DM what a free-action loading, double-barreled DEX/CHA gunslinger can do. : D

Thinking of taking rapid reload so at 3rd level, I can get 3 attacks, using both barrels with each shot, for 6 attacks all with CHA to damage. With touch attacks the horrid (-6) penalties shouldn't matter too much, right?

Two things:
1) Shooting into combat and if people get in the way of your target netting you an effective -8 to hit is still very much a problem, so the -6 on top of that will almost certainly cause a flurry of misses.
2) I think you're overlooking that you need a free hand to reload your guns, which is the main obstacles to Guns Akimbo type builds. That would somewhat preclude getting 6 shots a round at level 3, let alone being able to afford a pair of double-barreled pistols by then. Also the fact that having double barrels doesn't mean you have the attacks to use them all. If you try to shoot both as one attack, you have an extra -4 penalty to your attacks. Not to mention that Rapid Shot only gives you one extra shot, not one extra per weapon.

I'm not saying Rapid Shot isn't a bad idea, it's just that you'll have adequate numbers just dual-wielding and troubles keeping up with the reloading without having to worry about Rapid Shot on top of it. It works out nicely for single firearm wielders, though. I also think that pistols are weighed equivalently to light crossbows that you could get away with calling them light weapons for TWFing purposes. It doesn't say anywhere what they're treated as but it's what makes the most sense to me.

[grarrrg]

2) I think you're overlooking that you need a free hand to reload your guns, which is the main obstacles to Guns Akimbo type builds. That would somewhat preclude getting 6 shots a round at level 3,....

Me thinks he plans to have 1, Double-Barreled Gun, and just give them both barrels every 'shot'.
So there should be no reloading problems, and no Two-Weapon penalties.

[Cieyrin]

Me thinks he plans to have 1, Double-Barreled Gun, and just give them both barrels every 'shot'.
So there should be no reloading problems, and no Two-Weapon penalties.

D'oh! Misread. Well, that works, then. :smallredface: I guess that explains where the -6 penalty is coming from, -4 from shooting both barrels and -2 from Rapid Shot, though that still 4 attacks, not 6, so you only pull the trigger twice.

[FlayerIV]

What are the final thoughts on pistols vs muskets?

[Person_Man]

Question for those who have actually played as a Gunslinger: How balanced is the Grit mechanic? Do you ever run out of Grit points? Does it cause any book keeping hassles?

Just reading the rules, it seems like Grit can be managed in such a way (ie, invest in the Feat/item tax to increase your Grit point total, get a lot of attacks, invest some resources in improving your chances of crit, pick off weaker enemies first, and whenever you're clearly winning combat "bank" Grit points instead of spending them) that you basically have a constant stream of Grit points when you need them. And if that's the case, why not just make Deeds at-will abilities?


Note to Cieyrin: There's no longer a need to refer to the "playtest" version of the Gunslinger in your Handbook posts, and doing so is a bit confusing to me, since I never read the playtest version and never will. Instead, it would be more helpful to simply summarize what each ability does, and why you think it's good or bad. Everything about the Gunslinger (including the archetypes, feats, etc) is open public content and is up on the Paizo SRD (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classes/gunslinger.html) (although it's poorly organized by publication, instead of by class/subject).

[Cieyrin]

What are the final thoughts on pistols vs muskets?

Average 2 damage difference for a step slower reload that kinda requires Musket Master at higher levels to keep up with pistols. On the other hand, it has twice the range of pistols, so you don't have to maneuver quite so much and keep full attacking, so it's a matter of personal taste. Though, the double-barreled musket being unusable (10' range increment? why would Paizo do that?!? the combo weapon-muskets don't lose that much range! :smallfurious:) is kind of a mark against it, though, when the UC errata finally rolls out, that should be getting fixed (hopefully).


Question for those who have actually played as a Gunslinger: How balanced is the Grit mechanic? Do you ever run out of Grit points? Does it cause any book keeping hassles?

I've been playing a PFS core Gunslinger from 1st to 6th with a pistol and dragon pistol and I can say that, given I only have a Wis of 14, I have to carefully monitor my Grit use. Not to mention that I generally have to keep a point of grit around to keep Quick Clear viable, as I roll a lot of 1s and 2s. :smallredface:

Given that I only have 2 points of Grit (though I'll be investing in a Lucky Pistol and a +Wis Headband shortly), I don't have much trouble keeping track of how much Grit I have. If it gets to be an issue, I can just use a die counter to keep track but it's about as much trouble as a Monk's Ki pool to keep track of (i.e. Not a problem).


Just reading the rules, it seems like Grit can be managed in such a way (ie, invest in the Feat/item tax to increase your Grit point total, get a lot of attacks, invest some resources in improving your chances of crit, pick off weaker enemies first, and whenever you're clearly winning combat "bank" Grit points instead of spending them) that you basically have a constant stream of Grit points when you need them. And if that's the case, why not just make Deeds at-will abilities?

It's more an issue for the archetypes (Pistolero/Mysterious Stranger) but I think you could equate deeds to Ki Powers in terms of effectiveness. Some are more effective than others but they need a cost of some kind, whether that's having certain conditions in effect or using a limited resource. Compare Sneak Attack to Up Close and Deadly, they both provide precision damage but UC&D just needs to spend grit to go off, Sneak Attack needs the target to be flat-footed, flanked or generally denied their Dex. You have to spend that Grit for each attack, as well. On top of the damage already done by bullets and ease of hitting touch AC, it may be a touch overwhelming. But, the handbook is for the RAW Gunslinger, not homebrew fixes to rebalance it as a Martial Warlock (which could be really cool, actually...), which is beyond the scope of the handbook.


Note to Cieyrin: There's no longer a need to refer to the "playtest" version of the Gunslinger in your Handbook posts, and doing so is a bit confusing to me, since I never read the playtest version and never will. Instead, it would be more helpful to simply summarize what each ability does, and why you think it's good or bad. Everything about the Gunslinger (including the archetypes, feats, etc) is open public content and is up on the Paizo SRD (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classes/gunslinger.html) (although it's poorly organized by publication, instead of by class/subject).

I'll take it into consideration, though I'd like to attempt to finish the handbook before revising existing material. I just got a new laptop, so I'm in the process of transferring data over to it but, given it seems less temperamental than the Chromebook I was using in respect to handling art assets and having multiple tabs/windows open at the same time, it may speed up getting the Handbook done sooner than later.

[Person_Man]

I've been playing a PFS core Gunslinger from 1st to 6th with a pistol and dragon pistol and I can say that, given I only have a Wis of 14, I have to carefully monitor my Grit use.

Well, that definitely makes sense for a low level character with mediocre Wisdom. I wonder how it would play at higher levels, with high Wis.

It's annoying/MAD that the Gunslinger's maximum Grit, Menacing Shot, and Stunning Shot are based off of Wis (or Cha), but that your ranged To-Hit, Gun Training, Bleeding Wound, and Death's Shot are based on Dex. Does Pathfinder have an equivalent to Zen Archery? (Or can you just take Zen Archery? It's supposed to be backwards compatible with 3.5? Right?) If so, you could buy a Monk's Belt and magic bracers and be Wis SAD for most of your progression.

[Cieyrin]

Well, that definitely makes sense for a low level character with mediocre Wisdom. I wonder how it would play at higher levels, with high Wis.

It's annoying/MAD that the Gunslinger's maximum Grit, Menacing Shot, and Stunning Shot are based off of Wis (or Cha), but that your ranged To-Hit, Gun Training, Bleeding Wound, and Death's Shot are based on Dex. Does Pathfinder have an equivalent to Zen Archery? (Or can you just take Zen Archery? It's supposed to be backwards compatible with 3.5? Right?) If so, you could buy a Monk's Belt and magic bracers and be Wis SAD for most of your progression.

Given that Menacing Shot and Stunning Shot are high level Deeds (15th & 19th, respectively), anyways, you definitely should have the money to spring onto a Headband of Inspired Wisdom or a Tome of Understanding by then to make them useful. For the majority of your career, it's just the stat in control of the size of your Grit pool. It's definitely important but, if you can reliably kill worthy enemies, you can probably get away with a Wis of 14-16 and regenerating it as you go. This is especially true for Pistoleros and Mysterious Strangers, since that spike damage should pay back for itself if you plan your attacks well.

This is also why I emphasize critting, as that x4 Crit multiplier, with adequate damage boosters, will likely also kill a target, so you regenerate 2 Grit for that one attack, which is a significant chunk of your pool.

If it's really a bother, Zen Archery would be permissable for a 3.P game, as there isn't an equivalent outside the monk archetype, which isn't compatible with firearms unfortunately, though that doesn't alleviate meeting Dex requirements on archery feats, like Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim. I'm writing the guide from a pure PF perspective, though, so it's not really an option. It could be faked if a kind DM allowed Guided to apply to ranged weapons or if there was a deity with firearms as a favored weapon to use through Guided Hand, though that would require multiclassing into Cleric or Paladin.

[deuxhero]

Hedge Magican is actually a useful trait if you use Master Craftsman to enter CMA&A/CWI.

[grarrrg]

Does Pathfinder have an equivalent to Zen Archery? (Or can you just take Zen Archery? It's supposed to be backwards compatible with 3.5? Right?) If so, you could buy a Monk's Belt and magic bracers and be Wis SAD for most of your progression.

Even if you could get Wis-To-Hit, you'd still want a decent Dex score to qualify for feats.
Although, if you can get your DM to rule that Zen Archer Monk can use Wis-To-Hit with Firearms, then you could get away with as low as 13 Dex, taking all the High Dex Req feats with the Monk's Bonus feats.


Also, Cieyrin, you may want to mention (probably in the Stats section) that a Gunslinger with 7 (or less) Wis still has the same size Grit pool as a 'Slinger with 13 Dex.
And that a 'Slinger with low Wis and the Extra Grit Feat has as much Grit as a 'Slinger with 16 Dex. So a Low(er)-Wis build is an option.
(replace Cha for Wis for Mysterious Stranger of course)



Hedge Magican is actually a useful trait if you use Master Craftsman to enter CMA&A/CWI.

If you do plan on going a more crafty route, I highly recommend getting your Caster levels from Wizard (Spellslinger 'natch), and grabbing the Arcane Builder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/arcane-discoveries/arcane-builder) discovery to speed things up.

As written it's unclear whether it takes 75% or 80% of the normal time.

[grarrrg]

Does Pathfinder have an equivalent to Zen Archery? (Or can you just take Zen Archery? It's supposed to be backwards compatible with 3.5? Right?) If so, you could buy a Monk's Belt and magic bracers and be Wis SAD for most of your progression.

Even if you could get Wis-To-Hit, you'd still want a decent Dex score to qualify for feats.
Although, if you can get your DM to rule that Zen Archer Monk can use Wis-To-Hit with Firearms, then you could get away with as low as 13 Dex, taking all the High Dex Req feats with the Monk's Bonus feats.


Also, Cieyrin, you may want to mention (probably in the Stats section) that a Gunslinger with 7 (or less) Wis still has the same size Grit pool as a 'Slinger with 13 Wis.
And that a 'Slinger with low Wis and the Extra Grit Feat has as much Grit as a 'Slinger with 16 Dex. So a Low(er)-Wis build is an option.

[Cieyrin]

Also, Cieyrin, you may want to mention (probably in the Stats section) that a Gunslinger with 7 (or less) Wis still has the same size Grit pool as a 'Slinger with 13 Dex.
And that a 'Slinger with low Wis and the Extra Grit Feat has as much Grit as a 'Slinger with 16 Dex. So a Low(er)-Wis build is an option.
(replace Cha for Wis for Mysterious Stranger of course)

I'll make a note, though doing that on a Mysterious Stranger seems counter-productive. You trade a deed for one that banks on your Cha, it seems dumb to then tank your Cha and leave yourself gimped.

[Lemmy]

It's annoying/MAD that the Gunslinger's maximum Grit, Menacing Shot, and Stunning Shot are based off of Wis (or Cha), but that your ranged To-Hit, Gun Training, Bleeding Wound, and Death's Shot are based on Dex. Does Pathfinder have an equivalent to Zen Archery? (Or can you just take Zen Archery? It's supposed to be backwards compatible with 3.5? Right?) If so, you could buy a Monk's Belt and magic bracers and be Wis SAD for most of your progression.

Gunslingers are not that MAD since they don't really need STR, and with full BAB and targeting touch armor, they will probably hit every single time anyway.

I just wish grit was Wisdom + 3.

[grarrrg]

I'll make a note, though doing that on a Mysterious Stranger seems counter-productive. You trade a deed for one that banks on your Cha, it seems dumb to then tank your Cha and leave yourself gimped.

I don't know what you are talking about.
How dare you edit in that I would even consider suggesting such a stupid thing...

*nonchalant whistling*

[Backlash3906]

Are there any optimal ways to help recoup caster level? Currently progressing with a Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger)/Sorcerer (Arcane Bloodline)/Arcane Archer. Planning on taking 4/3 levels of the base classes to fulfill the BAB requirement for Arcane Archer.

GM is allowing Magical Knack trait, but not Practiced Spellcaster from 3.5's Complete Arcane (for now, anyway).

[grarrrg]

Are there any optimal ways to help recoup caster level? Currently progressing with a Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger)/Sorcerer (Arcane Bloodline)/Arcane Archer. Planning on taking 4/3 levels of the base classes to fulfill the BAB requirement for Arcane Archer.

GM is allowing Magical Knack trait, but not Practiced Spellcaster from 3.5's Complete Arcane (for now, anyway).

Currently way to recoup lost casting levels.

A few things though.

I'm assuming you got Arcane Archer approved to work with Firearms, yes?
If not, you'd be better off with Eldritch Knight. Although entry does require 3rd level arcane, it gives full Bab with 9/10 casting. Earliest Eldritch entry would be Gunslinger 1/Sorc 6 (which actually winds up being faster entry than Arcane Archer)

Arcane Archer has a Bab req of 6, so with Slinger 4/Sorc 3 you'd still only have 5 Bab, you'd need to add another level of either.

Also, if you haven't considered it, Empyreal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/empyreal) Bloodline Sorc uses WIS not CHA for casting, so you could go Pistolero/Musket Master for 5 levels and get DEX to damage instead.

[Cieyrin]

There are a couple of ARFs you could exploit to get your CL back on certain spells, like Stonesinger, Lightbringer, Pyromaniac, Arcane Training and Wanderlust, and probably some feats but I'm no expert on PF CL boosting by any means. This is just one of those cases where Paizo shows their contempt for multiclassing.

I'll see if I can get some of the core feats up and color-graded tomorrow, as I should have some free time then.

[Rhaegar14]

Do you plan on including favorable Archetypes at all? Because if so, Pistolero and Musket Master deserve glowing praise solely based on allowing you to add Dex to damage rolls.

I'm also a fan of Mysterious Stranger because it lets the character function as party face and have a clear role in the party outside of combat.

[grarrrg]

Do you plan on including favorable Archetypes at all? Because if so, Pistolero and Musket Master deserve glowing praise solely based on allowing you to add Dex to damage rolls.

Umm... NORMAL Gunslinger gets to add Dex-to-Damage.


Pistolero is special because you get a 'damage' deed right at level 1.

Musket Master is special because at level 3 you reload the same speed as a Pistol (AND get Rapid Reload as a bonus feat).

Mysterious Stranger is special because of using Charisma.

Gun Tank is...not so special. Although if there are a lot of bad-guys with Guns, then Bullet Deflection can be quite handy.

[Rhaegar14]

Umm... NORMAL Gunslinger gets to add Dex-to-Damage.

*Rereads.* Oh. So they do.