PCs: Are they schmucks or special to you?

[Coidzor]

So I was looking around for a thread where I recalled a discussion of the handle animal rules on this board and stumbled upon this thread (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/rules/ridingAHostileWildAnimal&page=1) instead.


Riding bareback on wild beasts is a feat of legends, and not something every schmuck* should be able to do just because he is a PC.
*emphasis added

The last line in particular stuck out to me and reminded me of previous times I'd encountered the conflicting ideas that PCs above level 6 are by their capabilities super-human even just going by their capabilities in terms of raw skill ranks for things like the Jump skill and so on and the idea that PCs, even high level ones are nobodies who just happen to have enough magic to mess up a setting given the time and inclination.

So, Playgrounders, I ask you, where do you fall on this spectrum between Big Damn Heroes and meat puppets to be abused?

edit: For clarification, this has less to do with their relative fame in the game world and more along the lines of whether, by virtue of being a PC, there is something exceptional about the person even if it's only their potential as part of the upper nth percentile of the population. While of interest, fame is not my focus here.

[Drachasor]

They are heroes, so pretty special. If we play to high levels they should be world-shakers.

[Eldariel]

Eh, there's a distinction in stature and ability. By ability, PCs above level 6 are by definition superhuman simply because...well, the stuff they pull off easily exceeds what a human can do. Whether they spread stories of their exploits and have the fame to match that depends entirely on the PCs. I'd rather not have my assassin's face known to anyone; being a celebrity would be kind of an occupational problem in that job. Neither fame nor infamy; a competent assassin remains unknown. On the other hand, being a big ham kinda comes with the whole Divine Champion role so my divine champion would very likely be famous of his great skills.

However, this thread had yet another question interwined into the mess: Are PCs special? Far as I'm concerned, they're generally special (above average of their species in many ways) though not unique. So from upper echelons of capability of their species but obviously never the best, since there's nothing to strive for if you already have everything (unless that's the point of the campaign and we're talking level big).


But yeah, if I understood you correctly, you're asking the following three things:
- Do you consider PCs above level 6 to have superhuman capability?
- Do you consider PCs above level 6 to have reputation for superhuman capability in the game world?
- Do you consider PC characters special snowflakes or par de course members of their species?

Do correct me if I'm wrong.

[tyckspoon]

Depends on the setting demographics. Mid-level characters are super-human in capacity- that's just how the rules work out- but it doesn't necessarily make them special. If you're in a world like Forgotten Realms, almost every area of any note will have dozens of characters in the 4-6th level range, along with a not-insignificant number of characters with double digits. In that kind of world simply being of relatively high level is not notable, you have to *do* something special.

On the other hand, if the typical demographic gets up to maybe 3rd level max, than being 6th level is quite an impressive achievement in its own right. A 6th level party in such a world is a significant concentration of might, and the powers of the world will take note and treat them as such- if they do not make efforts to control their own fates, other power centers will be trying to recruit them and/or use them as pawns. This can create a "world centers around PCs" effect, but it's a natural result of being more powerful than 80% of the humanoids in the world.

[Coidzor]

But yeah, if I understood you correctly, you're asking the following three things:
- Do you consider PCs above level 6 to have superhuman capability?
- Do you consider PCs above level 6 to have reputation for superhuman capability in the game world?
- Do you consider PC characters special snowflakes or par de course members of their species?

Do correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, the whole reputation of a given PC wasn't really an active concern when I created the thread, as the question is more about how one views them as players and DMs, less about how one views how the rest of the world views them necessarily.

Though, now that you've brought it up, that would be of some interest in fleshing out the context of someone's perspective on the matter. ...I think.

I guess one thing related to it would be how relatively common individuals who have/can have PC classes are. There's definitely something less special about a given PC if there's a high adventurer per capita and some percentage of the population >n has PC class levels, whereas there's something a bit more special about PCs if PC class levels are really rare too.

Hadn't really considered that aspect when I was posing the question.

Hmm... how to better phrase it...

[Drakevarg]

To my mind, PCs are never heroes by default. Only if they actually accomplish something do they raise above schmucks in my mind. And given my personal track record as DM, they rarely do.

In-world, Level 6 isn't considered much in my settings. The average commander of the guards in any given city is Level 7. Around Level 11 is where you start being able to throw your weight around.

[Crow]

PC's in my game are nobodies, unless they do something to distinguish themselves and become known.

In our world, soldiers range from levels 1-3, 1 being a greenie, and 3 being a veteran of many campaigns. Individuals of exceptional skill or training will be in the 4 to 6 range, but not neccessarily known unless they've *done* something notable.

There *are* npc's in the world of higher levels, but they are the stuff of legends. When the PC's get to those levels, they are feared and respected. They can literally waltz into the King's palace, lay waste to the towers, kill all the guards, run the King's underwear up the flag pole, and sit in his throne while their buddies bed his wife.

Not to say that they will always escape retribution once one of the real big damn heroes of the world hear about what happened and go looking if they're so inclined. But you know what? They just *might* get away with it anyways. I have no problem with superpowered usurpers siezing the throne, throngs of adoring subjects celebrating the death of the tyrant and welcoming their new ruler, or cowering in fear of his massive undead armies. It's not unheard of for other high powered npc's to have done the same. It's the high-stakes action that heroes and villians at those levels should be doing (in my opinion). It helps that we run a homebrew world, so it's easy to make changes to it (and as DM I am not averse to doing so).

[Alleran]

Depends on the setting. In WHFRP, for example, odds are that you're one of the dregs of society. You could be a street-sweeper, rat-catcher, doomsaying prophet on a street corner, or anything like that. And you have to survive in a deadly world. And it is dark and gritty and often gruesome. In that sense, you're definitely a more average person, thrown into the deep end of the pool.

[Shadowknight12]

If they're not special, I have to wonder why I'm playing with them, rather than doing something that is actually fun.

[Zaq]

Generally speaking, PCs are pretty special. Though this probably has something to do with how friggin' long it takes to make a new one.

[Knaight]

It depends. If everyone only has one character, and doesn't jump from group to group and side to side in some epic drama where their characters likely kill each other off, I usually take the protagonist approach. Simulate a story, assume this lot are the protagonist, but keep the setting consistent and with far more than just this story in it.

Note that this is all more narrative perspective stuff. When it comes to specialness as in innate power within the setting, I don't do it. However, stuff like the right place in the right time, coincidences that work for stories, so on and so forth, that tends to show up with the PCs to keep things interesting.

[rexreg]

in most of the campaigns I DM, PC's are important

this makes them stand out more as targets

"With great power comes great paranoia."

[big teej]

if a player's concept is "I'm a big important dude of such-and-such"

and we're starting at level one, the concept is vetoed in the event that they can't explain why "mister bigshot" is a level one adventuerer and etc.


now, assuming that social status is a non-issue of the character's concept...
all of the following have the obvious exception of backstory elements.
level 1 - nobody, no one knows who you are, and nobody cares, except maybe your mother.

once the party hits level 5
they're fairly famous within the immediete vicinity, and are not unheard of elsewhere

once the party hits 10, they're essentially legends, they are recognizable on sight in the areas they frequent, and bards sing of them for leages away.

15 - well into legendary status, kings of faraway nations know your name, you're likely also recivieng attention/recognition from other planes

20 - ye are like unto a god, everyone in your realm of existence has heard of your exploits, and you have great renown amongst many of the planes.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Doesn't it depend on the system, the setting, and the agreed-upon feel? I wouldn't expect my Paranoia character to be anything but a schmuck. I wouldn't expect my Exalted character to be anything but legendary. In D&D... it generally depends on your level, but a level X PC is generally more special than a level X NPC who isn't a key character.

[Yahzi]

PCs are indistinguishable from NPCs of the same level.

But then, I run a sandbox world.

[WarKitty]

PCs are indistinguishable from NPCs of the same level.

But then, I run a sandbox world.

That doesn't necessarily mean the PC's aren't special. I ran a sandbox world with level 13 PC's. They were pretty special simply by being level 13 in a world where most people don't go above level 5. The guys that can wipe out your entire city guard tend to be pretty special.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

It varies by campaign, obviously, but the heuristic I see is that characters who have a lot of time and emotion vested into them are considered more special.

[Coidzor]

PCs are indistinguishable from NPCs of the same level.

But then, I run a sandbox world.

Which tells us nothing without the context of how you view NPCs, especially NPCs with PC class levels, and how you account for leveling.

[Drachasor]

They are heroes, so pretty special. If we play to high levels they should be world-shakers.

I just wanted to add that by this I mean the PCs are very special people compared to the general population. Not just by a couple standard deviations either. A PC is the sort of person that's one in a million if not rarer. Generally I view them as rare even among other adventurers (or whatever). Sure, they aren't the most powerful thing around, but that doesn't change the fact that they are a very rare thing.

Personally, as a DM or a PC I'm not interesting in playing "joe normal" or "joe a-bit-better-than-average".

[Malimar]

PCs are indistinguishable from NPCs of the same level.

But then, I run a sandbox world.

That doesn't necessarily mean the PC's aren't special. I ran a sandbox world with level 13 PC's. They were pretty special simply by being level 13 in a world where most people don't go above level 5. The guys that can wipe out your entire city guard tend to be pretty special.

This.
I've estimated the very highest level NPCs in the world -- the high priests of the most popular churches and the leaders of the most powerful nations -- as 7th or 8th level. The most otherwise notable characters are limited to level 5. Only a handful of people you'll meet in your lifetime will have more than 1 or 2 levels.
The vast majority of NPCs in my world tend to have exclusively commoner levels. Those with non-commoner levels tend to have exclusively NPC levels. Those with non-NPC levels tend to have exclusively tier 3-5 levels and terrible non-optimized builds. Even those most powerful priests aren't necessarily cleric 8; expert 2/adept 3/cleric 3 is more likely. Just today I was fiddling with some fairly major NPCs, advisors to the king, with a build of commoner 1/expert 1/warrior 1/fighter 1/swashbuckler 1.
The vast majority of NPCs in my world use either straight tens (equivalent to 12 point buy) or the Non-Elite Array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8), and don't necessarily max their hit dice at first level. The best and brightest use the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) or point buy 25. A very, very few NPCs use 30 point buy like the PCs.

So there's a spectrum. At one end of the spectrum is average Commoner 1 with straight tens and non-maxed hit dice. At the other end of the spectrum is 30 point buy tier 1-3s with a maxed first-level hit die. The PCs are the latter.

I don't know quite what the shape of the graph is -- half a bell curve, maybe? This troubles me slightly, because I don't know of many natural statistical distributions that aren't just straightforward bell curves, but commoner 1 needs to be overwhelmingly the majority of people in the world.

THAT SAID, the one area where NPCs more readily excel than PCs is in the area of templates and races. NPCs are not limited to ECL5 or CR5 or anything; the limit is only on the number of class levels they can take. The king has a fairly powerful template in addition to his 5 levels of marshal (again, even the most powerful NPCs don't necessarily have high-tier class levels, though marshal isn't necessarily so bad a choice for somebody who will never be seen with fewer than a dozen guards by his side), though not as powerful a template as his father, the previous king (who singlehandedly defeated my first campaign, incidentally), had.

In short: even a level 1 PC is extraordinary. Any who break level 3 are at least reasonably famous, and any who break level 6 are storied in song and legend. The two PCs who survived my first campaign are now two of the most high-leveled NPCs in the world. The cleric who didn't survive is a saint to the church of Kord and has a big cathedral+arena named after her. I'm sure I'll find some way to mention the scout if anybody ever travels to his homeland. All this is despite largely failing to achieve the goal of the campaign.

[Saph]

Depends what you mean by "special".

• Do the PCs have superhuman abilities? Yes. In my current campaign the party is 8th-9th level, and can do stuff that would be flat-out impossible for a normal human being even before you take into account their magic.
• Are the PCs the protagonists? Yes. The camera is on them, whatever they do is by definition the story.
• Do the PCs get treated differently in-game from the NPCs? No.

PCs in my games are often treated as important people, but they're important because of their power or their achievements, not because they're PCs.

[Coidzor]

Depends what you mean by "special".

Your mental conception of them, the relative exceptional-ness of individuals with PC class levels, possibly how the last bit changes with the acquisition of further levels. Their lack of schmuckitude or their level thereof.

How much you get off on degrading them and "putting them in their place," in the one direction, even.

Do you conceptualize them as being in a box or place that they have to be reminded that they're in periodically lest they escape or rise above it?

Is that any more clear?

[kamikasei]

I'm not sure what "schmuckitude" consists of, but...

How much you get off on degrading them and "putting them in their place," in the one direction, even.

Do you conceptualize them as being in a box or place that they have to be reminded that they're in periodically lest they escape or rise above it?
...just based on the quote in the OP (I may be missing context from the original thread), this seems a bit harsh. I don't want the players to expect to be able to do things just because they're PCs. They're special because they have remarkable abilities and do remarkable things. They're not (in a D&D game) Exalted; the fabric of reality does not bestir itself to make things more likely to turn out their way than an equivalent NPC with the same abilities could hope for. There are other games, and play styles within D&D, where either PCs are special in that way, or the whole world runs in a more cinematic groove and PCs and NPCs alike can do cool stuff just because it's cool even if it's not realistic that they'd know how. However, I think it's perfectly reasonable to say "no, just because you're a renowned swordsman who killed the Bloody Bishop and prevented the opening of the Abyssal Gate doesn't mean you can expect to effortlessly manage this difficult feat which has nothing to do with your particular competencies. You have things you're great at. You're not great at everything, and some things are still really hard."

edit: Now I have read the Paizo thread, and found it thoroughly sensible. Coupled to your summary of "schmuckitude" above, and:

meat puppets to be abused?
from the OP, I get the feeling this is about a rather different frustration...?

[Saph]

How much you get off on degrading them and "putting them in their place," in the one direction, even.

Do you conceptualize them as being in a box or place that they have to be reminded that they're in periodically lest they escape or rise above it?

Is that any more clear?

Well, I can see what you're trying to say, but it's more of a rant than an honest question and it's almost completely subjective.

A better question, IMO, is how PCs are treated in the game world as opposed to NPCs. Do the inhabitants of the game world treat the PCs differently from everyone else, or do they treat them the same way they'd treat any other NPC with equivalent power and fame?

[Angry Bob]

In my setting, being an adventurer nets you special treatment, but there are a lot of adventurers. Once you hit about level 13, you can start looking for national or regional recognition. I mean, Joe farmer might have a level or two of fighter or rogue or something to chase away thugs with.

Of course, this is the kind of world where that special treatment is based on fear. An ogre can walk down the street with no one batting an eye, but some adventurers coming to town? Hide your kids, hide your wife.

[Coidzor]

Well, I can see what you're trying to say, but it's more of a rant than an honest question and it's almost completely subjective.

A better question, IMO, is how PCs are treated in the game world as opposed to NPCs. Do the inhabitants of the game world treat the PCs differently from everyone else, or do they treat them the same way they'd treat any other NPC with equivalent power and fame?

Then you're not seeing what I'm trying to say and I'm repeatedly trying and failing to communicate this question.

And running out of ways to phrase the question in order to elicit actual answers to it.


A better question, IMO, is how PCs are treated in the game world as opposed to NPCs. Do the inhabitants of the game world treat the PCs differently from everyone else, or do they treat them the same way they'd treat any other NPC with equivalent power and fame?

Which is something I'm interested in, yes, but doesn't cover the entirety of the topic of interest.


edit: Now I have read the Paizo thread, and found it thoroughly sensible. Coupled to your summary of "schmuckitude" above, and:

from the OP, I get the feeling this is about a rather different frustration...?

The only frustration I'm having is in my apparent inability to communicate my question. :smallsigh:

I imagine not having been able to sleep properly and getting sick isn't helping matters either.


I'm not sure what "schmuckitude" consists of, but...

...just based on the quote in the OP (I may be missing context from the original thread), this seems a bit harsh.

I'm getting a bit frustrated in trying to show examples of various takes and flavors to aid in answering the question rather than receiving queries as to my desires.

The fact that I used a word like "schmuckitude," in the first place, I feel, is a pretty good gauge of said frustration and floundering. :smallredface:

[mint]

Depends!
I think Saph put it well. The PCs are special in the sense that what they do is the story.
As for the PCs being uniquely powerful because of their levels in the setting, I think that's problematic.
For one what do you fight? If level 5 rogues or whatever are really rare, how do you deal with that when making encounters? Fight only monsters?

[Coidzor]

Depends!

Your personal views really have no tendencies towards anything in particular?

[kamikasei]

As far as I can see you're conflating two issues: do you treat PCs as qualitatively different to NPCs in ability? and do you hate PCs and want to make them suffer?

I mean, do you really expect someone to answer "yes, when I DM I view my players' characters as the lowest of the low, hated and despised creatures to be spat upon and trod underfoot, meat puppets to be abused, degraded, kept in their place"?

That's the sort of thing we all just know is true but don't admit out loud, man.

edit: Let me try answering another part of the OP directly.

edit: For clarification, this has less to do with their relative fame in the game world and more along the lines of whether, by virtue of being a PC, there is something exceptional about the person even if it's only their potential as part of the upper nth percentile of the population. While of interest, fame is not my focus here.
This has no universal answer. In general I like characters who are ordinary people with unusual but not astonishing potential, who become notable by rising to meet the challenges they face. Sometimes I can go for more ordinary-Joe types, sometimes for fated Chosen Ones who find difficult or esoteric skills easier to acquire than is normal in the game world.

[Coidzor]

As far as I can see you're conflating two issues: do you treat PCs as qualitatively different to NPCs in ability? and do you hate PCs and want to make them suffer?

I see how one views PCs in both of those ways as being related to the area I'm interested in, yes. They both fall under the overall umbrella of how one views PCs, after all.


I mean, do you really expect someone to answer "yes, when I DM I view my players' characters as the lowest of the low, hated and despised creatures to be spat upon and trod underfoot, meat puppets to be abused, degraded, kept in their place"?

That's the sort of thing we all just know is true but don't admit out loud, man.

Or I was trying to establish extreme poles to head off the joys of people complaining about the poles not fitting them. Which instead leads to me being accused of ranting when I purposefully did not go on at length as to my views to avoid making this topic all about myself and my personal take on the matter.

[kamikasei]

I see how one views PCs in both of those ways as being related to the area I'm interested in, yes. They both fall under the overall umbrella of how one views PCs, after all.
Then it seems to me you're asking a very broad question that can't usefully be confined to a "spectrum", and implying that any move away from treating PCs as special and exceptional is a move toward treating them as contemptible subjects for deserved abuse will only muddle the question.

Or I was trying to establish extreme poles to head off the joys of people complaining about the poles not fitting them. Which instead leads to me being accused of ranting when I purposefully did not go on at length as to my views to avoid making this topic all about myself and my personal take on the matter.
When you take a thread such as that linked in the OP, and try to clarify your understanding of terms used in it in ways that are far harsher than anything the linked thread would suggest, it does come off - at least to me - as if your own personal take on the matter has already come in to it.

[Coidzor]

When you take a thread such as that linked in the OP, and try to clarify your understanding of terms used in it in ways that are far harsher than anything the linked thread would suggest, it does come off - at least to me - as if your own personal take on the matter has already come in to it.

And you're overblowing the significance of the thread when I specifically stated it was the last sentence that set me on the path of thought that led to creating this thread.

The sentiment expressed therein that even high level PCs are just schmucks. Kind of reminded me of other times I'd run into such sentiments and their... opposites for lack of a better word.


Then it seems to me you're asking a very broad question that can't usefully be confined to a "spectrum", and implying that any move away from treating PCs as special and exceptional is a move toward treating them as contemptible subjects for deserved abuse will only muddle the question.

Do you have any suggestions for how you would phrase it better then so that it would not be so flagrantly offensive and distracting to you and others?

If no, then this thread is dead as far as actually expressing my intentions to the board at large.

[kamikasei]

Do you have any suggestions for how you would phrase it better then so that it would not be so flagrantly offensive and distracting to you and others?
Well, I can only guess as to what the actual question that interests you is, since you've lamented that every attempt to answer or restate it so far in the thread has missed the mark.

So here, I'll put out some questions that interest me in this area of discussion and maybe you can flag some as being related to your own thoughts and some as being irrelevant.

Could someone else do the things the PCs are doing? Are they fulfilling some fate or prophecy that says that they, specifically, will do X or Y and they're the only ones who can? Or in principle, if one of the PCs had been in the bathroom when the demon army burst in to the tavern, could one of the other NPC adventurers present have been the one who jumped through the portal to seal it from the other side and taken her place in the party (metagame considerations aside)?

Are the things the PCs can do remarkable or exceptional within the setting? The general population? The ranks of adventurers? Are they a special forces team, or the special forces team? Are there other people like them out there, perhaps not as important because they didn't happen to be in the right place at the right time to deal with the most important problem around, but not recognizably less competent and heroic within the game world?

Are the PCs unusual in how they develop? Is a PC at a given level of power likely to be of a similar age and level of experience to others at that level (using the same approach)? Or do you have novice swordsmen who strike out for adventure at eighteen and are taking on grizzled veterans at nineteen - or fifty-year-olds who were humble barkeeps until a year ago but are now on par with generals their age who've spent their entire lives fighting?

[big teej]

edit: For clarification, this has less to do with their relative fame in the game world and more along the lines of whether, by virtue of being a PC, there is something exceptional about the person even if it's only their potential as part of the upper nth percentile of the population. While of interest, fame is not my focus here.

missed the edit when I typed up my last response, allow me to adress your actual concern.

as I understand it, the question is "does being a PC make them inherently better than an NPC in any way"

nope.
just....
nope.

not in-world anyways. the characters are far more proactive and fleshed out, but if a player is a 10th level knight, he is no better than a NPC 10th level knight (unless the player actually built a better knight)

but he is no better than his npc counterpart JUST because he is controlled by the player.

[Saph]

Then you're not seeing what I'm trying to say and I'm repeatedly trying and failing to communicate this question.

I think you ARE communicating the question - it's just that the answer isn't as simple as one or the other.

When I run campaigns, the PCs are the focus of the story, but they aren't usually the focus of the world. Whatever the PCs choose to do is where the story will go and it's where the game will go and I'll tailor the game to match that. Up to a point, I'll also change the world to match what the PCs want to do, and I'll always try to set up encounters so that the PCs have a fair chance of success. So in that sense, yes, the PCs are "special", because the campaign and the story is shaped around them.

However, NPCs react to PCs in basically the same way they would to any other person. If the PCs are powerful then NPCs will take notice of them, but it's because they're powerful, not because they're PCs. So from an RP point of view the PCs may or may not be "special" - it depends on what they do in-game. Bob the Dragon Slayer and Savior of the Kingdom is going to get treated very differently from Bob the Dirty Peasant.

And at a basic mechanical level, the rules of the game work the same way for PCs as they do for NPCs. The PCs get a move and a standard and a swift action just the same as everybody else. The PCs don't get any special treatment when it comes to classes or abilities; anything the PCs can do, the NPCs can do. (On the flip side, anything the NPCs can do, the PCs can theoretically do as well.) So in that sense, the PCs aren't "special" at all - they have to follow the rules that everyone else does.

So like Mint says, it depends.

[Hecuba]

They're extraordinary, but that doesn't mean that they can defacto do every extraordinary thing they want.

For the initial example, if riding a wild beast bareback would be considered legendary, then a person who specializes in riding should need to be legendary to pull it off. That's fairly nebulous, so let's say it that people are regional/topical legends at level 7.

So that ride check should be something appropriately challenging to a level 7 character built for ride. So that's 10 ranks, +2 for animal affinity, +2 synergy for handle animal, +3 for skill focus, +3 from DEX. That puts us at a modifier of 20.

Let's peg "challenging" as 50% success chance, so that means we want them to succeed on a 10. Let's subtract the 5 DC you always need to not fall off the mount. There's also a -5 penalty to the check for riding bareback (I've always wondered why this is on the check and not the DC). That pegs the DC modifier for riding an untamed wild beast as +20.

Thus while your PC may be a legendary bad ass (though that doesn't preclude them from being a dirty schmuck if they behave as such), if they want to ride a wild beast bareback, they need to be able to pass a DC 30 ride check (or rather a DC 25 ride check with a -5 penalty to the check).

[Rimeheart]

It sounds like you almost want to run a game and then have the PC's run into a party nearly identical but some how better treated than the PC's just for laughs or some thing?
Or to demonstrate that these NPC's that are similiar to the PC's some how acted in ways to make the NPC's like the NPC party more well liked?