bloodline level progression

[dhusarra]

hello.can someone write the table progression of the bloodlines?count as character level?for example.

1--0
2--1000
3--3000
4--6000
5--10000
6--15000
7--21000
8--28000
9--36000
10--45000
11--55000
12--66000

so a character with major bloodline how goes?its same but count like dead level?or
1--0
2--1000
3--3000
4--5000 like leveling from 2-3 cause 3 is dead level
5--8000
6--12000
7--16000 like leveling from 5-6 cause is dead level
8--21000
9--27000
10--34000
11--42000
12--51000
13--60000 like leveling from 11-12 cause is dead level


any help is appreciated :)

[Darkfire]

Treat each bloodline level as a regular level for XP progression (e.g. Wizard 2/Bloodline 1 is a 3rd-level character so will next level up at 6000xp).

[PairO'Dice Lost]

so a character with major bloodline how goes?its same but count like dead level?or
1--0
2--1000
3--3000
4--5000 like leveling from 2-3 cause 3 is dead level
5--8000
6--12000
7--16000 like leveling from 5-6 cause is dead level
8--21000
9--27000
10--34000
11--42000
12--51000
13--60000 like leveling from 11-12 cause is dead level

Not quite; your math's a bit off, so it would look more like this:

{table]Level|Total XP|XP to Level
Class 1|0|0
Class 2|1000|1000
Bloodline 1|3000|2000
Class 3|5000|2000
Class 4|8000|3000
Class 5|12000|4000
Bloodline 2|17000|5000
Class 6|22000|5000
Class 7|28000|6000
Class 8|35000|7000
Class 9|43000|8000
Class 10|52000|9000
Class 11|62000|10000
Bloodline 3|73000|11000
Class 12|84000|11000[/table]

Going from level X to level X+1 requires gaining 1000X XP, so to gain your first bloodline level you need 2000 XP (you're currently class 2, going to class 2/bloodline 1). However, you need 2000XP again to gain your 3rd class level, because you're still ECL 2. The same holds for the other two levels.

Note that you can gain the bloodline levels at any point before the indicated levels, so you could actually go class 1 -> class 1/bloodline 1 -> class 1/bloodline 2 -> class 1/bloodline 3 -> class 2/bloodline 3 etc. to save on XP, you'd just be ridiculously fragile at low levels.


Treat each bloodline level as a regular level for XP progression (e.g. Wizard 2/Bloodline 1 is a 3rd-level character so will next level up at 6000xp).

Incorrect. As per the bloodline rules, "Class levels of 'bloodline' do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits." A wizard 2/bloodline 1 character still has a character level of 2 and would require 2000XP for his next level and level at a total of only 5000XP.

[MeeposFire]

No it is debated but the rules do clearly mention levels. In fact your method can lead the character from having no cost from the bloodline (so it is always better to take a bloodline in your method) and in fact due to how XP works you actually can come out AHEAD of the normal characters.

Suffice to say you will find people on both sides of that issue. I favor the reading that the levels mentioned in the rules actually mean levels.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

No it is debated but the rules do clearly mention levels. In fact your method can lead the character from having no cost from the bloodline (so it is always better to take a bloodline in your method) and in fact due to how XP works you actually can come out AHEAD of the normal characters.

Suffice to say you will find people on both sides of that issue. I favor the reading that the levels mentioned in the rules actually mean levels.

1) It explicitly says that bloodline levels do not increase character level, period. A wizard 2/bloodline 1 does not have a character level of 3, it has a character level of 2, period. It's kind of hard to interpret "Class levels of 'bloodline' do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does" in any other way.

2) Indeed, XP Is A River does lead to gaining extra XP from having a bloodline due to being of lower ECL...but so does LA, and a wizard 2/bloodline 1 is quite close to a LA 1/wizard 2 in terms of total XP vs. level and level vs. benefits gained. Taking a bloodline is no different from taking a template or race with LA except that you don't have to take all of the bloodline levels at the beginning of your career.

[MeeposFire]

1) Actually that is not clear. For instance gaining a level without a HD would be increasing a level not in the way a normal class level does. See that not so clear. In fact it gets just as ugly the other way because if it isn't a level why ever call it that? The simple answer is that it is a level but it is different in some ways such as no HD.

2) The fact that your way breaks the standard XP rules may be a clue that it is wrong. Or that the writers suck (or that the rules just aren't completely fleshed out like so many alternate rules). I choose to read both.

So really the question is that unlike LA your variant of bloodlines are always better if you otherwise play by the rules. If you like that then read it your way. If you want bloodlines to have an actual cost (similar but not the same as LA) then you read them as actual levels that are different in some ways. In the end I have seen this argument on at least 3 different forums and multiple times and each time this never really gets settled. In fact depending on which forum and which posters are involved all you get is a big argument on which the only thing decided is which is liked better by each person.

So to the OP do you want your Blood lines to have a cost or not?

[Jjeinn-tae]

Hmm, it's both by my reading.


Over the course of his career, a character with a bloodline becomes more powerful than one without a bloodline. Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this difference. instead, a bloodline character must take one or more levels of "bloodline" at various points in his career, as noted on Table: Bloodline Levels. Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of "bloodline."

Then the very next sentence:


Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

[MeeposFire]

Hmm, it's both by my reading.



Then the very next sentence:

Exactly why this gets so debated. Nobody will agree about what is meant by

"Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does but they do provide certain benefits (see below)"

In my reading that sentence means that you still gain a level as it says above but it is different in several ways (if it is different then it does not increase your level in the way a normal class level does, as it increases it differently). The biggest reason for that phrase I think is that you do not gain a HD which is normal when you gain a level. In fact typically they are nearly used interchangeably in certain areas. The lack of HD, but you still get many other benefits of getting level would make it similar but not the same as the normal way of gaining a level whether you call it a level or not.

In their reading the second sentence gets more emphasis and it is taken as saying you don't count them as levels. The previous mentioning of levels must be a slip of the tongue or just a placeholder for lack of a better term (or something else I am not entirely sure how they rationalize the use of the levels term in this case). Personally I would think if they meant this to be like that you could have done it easier without mentioning levels at all and just call it a one time XP cost just like LA adjustment buy off is (which is not so controversial in how it works).

Suffice to say they could have done a better job of it either way.

By the way this is in my top ten of most hated questions about 3.5 (I think my most hated is the hellfire warlock/incarnum question).

[Hirax]

I don't see the ambiguity at all. They don't count toward ECL, you're hanging too much on the use of the word "level." Think of the 'lost' level as buying off level adjustment.

Though I agree that some homebrew fixing is in order if you wish to use bloodlines. Otherwise if you're starting at level 1 and don't think you'll make it to 12, grab that minor bloodline every time.

[Jjeinn-tae]

Hmm yeah, that's my interpretation too... Now I'm curious if there's a bloodline where it would be worth getting Spell Levels later... But it pushes back 2nd level spells even... That is tough; but you wouldn't lose out on caster level with Practiced Spellcaster...

[MeeposFire]

I don't see the ambiguity at all. They don't count toward ECL, you're hanging too much on the use of the word "level." Think of the 'lost' level as buying off level adjustment.

Though I agree that some homebrew fixing is in order if you wish to use bloodlines. Otherwise if you're starting at level 1 and don't think you'll make it to 12, grab that minor bloodline every time.

Funny I see no ambiguity either. It only seems that way since I am tryinig not to force down the OPs throat considering there is no actual ruling anywhere outside of your own DM. Neither did a lot of people at the old WotC boards feel there was ambiguity which is why bloodlines were considered terrible by many since they thought they were levels (or at least took the place of a level). That is why you don't see them used outside of niche characters like hellfire warlocks.

If I was in a campaign that allowed bloodlines like that I would take them every time as they are a strict power increase unless you change how the game does XP.

I find that neither group thinks there is any real ambiguity until they find out that other people read it differently.