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Cogidubnus
2011-08-26, 11:25 AM
The Liminal


http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs18/i/2007/138/6/2/Inner_Monster_by_Matsuda86.jpg


Have you ever seen red and lost control? Have you ever blacked out and come to not knowing what happened in your lost hours? Then you have sensed the touch of The Beast Within, the monster that lies within the hearts of all sentient beings, the primal side of us. The Liminal not only recognises this side of themselves, they also accept it, and learn to control it. This separates them from society, and most Liminal find it hard to fit in with more civilised people, although they get on well with Druids, Rangers, and anyone else who loves the natural world.

Liminals each have a unique way of unlocking this inner side to them. Some focus on a specific memory, others touch an object, drink a small potion, invite their inner self to take over, speak a trigger word or line of religious text or even by mildly injuring themselves.

Ed: More fluff to come.

Role: The Liminal can adapt to any role by adapting and modifying its form, but tend to be frontliners in combat using aggressive animal forms. They are also skilled individuals able to survive in the wild and hide their strangeness in society.

Alignment: Any, but tend away from Lawful.

Hit Dice: d8

Class skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Disguise, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (geography), Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Search, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble

Skills: 4+Intelligence Modifier per level


{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fortitude Save|Reflex Save|Will Save|
Special

1st|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+2|
Wild Shape, Shapeshift, Optimise Form, Drive

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+0|
+3| Touch of the Beast, Wild Empathy

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+3| Otherborn Nature

4th|
+4|
+1|
+1|
+4| Beast's Token, Verminous

5th|
+5|
+1|
+1|
+4| You Can't Take It With You (1), Fear His Nature

6th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+2|
+5| Know Thyself (1), Power's Guard

7th|
+7/+2|
+2|
+2|
+5| Optimise Form (6), Otherborn Nature

8th|
+8/+3|
+2|
+2|
+6| Gaze of the Beast, Agile Blow

9th|
+9/+4|
+3|
+3|
+6| Crushing Strike

10th|
+10/+5|
+3|
+3|
+7| You Can't Take It With You (2), Gigantic

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+3|
+3|
+7| Otherborn Nature

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+4|
+4|
+8| Know Thyself (2), Hunter's Life

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+4|
+4|
+8| Practised Changer, Venomous Spirit

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+4|
+4|
+9| Optimise Form (8), Hideous

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+5|
+5|
+9| Otherborn Nature, You Can't Take It With You (3)

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+10| More To Life

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+10| Ubiquitous, Soul-Stuff

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+11| Know Thyself (3), Pan's Shadow

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11| Rend Soul, Diminutive Size

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+6|
+12| You Can't Take It With You (4), Out Of This World, Irrepressible Nature,
[/table]

Class Features

Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: Liminal are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and light armor.

Drive: At 1st level, the Liminal chooses whether it is driven by its personality (Charisma) or instinct (Wisdom). This choice will hereafter be called its Drive ability, and this ability's modifier its Drive modifier.

Wild Shape: As the Druid Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape) except as noted here.
The Liminal may adopt the forms of Magical Beasts as well as Animals.
The Liminal gains the Wild Shape ability at first level, but it cannot be used to qualify for prestige classes with Wild Shape as a prerequisite until 5th level. Each use of Wild Shape lasts for a maximum of the Liminal's; class level + levels in other classes with Wild Shape as a class feature + 1/2 all other class levels. This number is their Wild Shaping number. A Liminal may use Wild Shape a number of times per day equal to 1/2 their Wild Shaping number, minimum 1.
The Liminal may assume forms other than medium or small when its Wild Shaping number meets a certain value, as follows:

8 - Large
10 - Tiny
14 - Huge
20 - Gargantuan

Shapeshift: At first level, the Liminal may make small changes to its form. Activating this ability requires a move action. This ability is useable for 10 rounds in a day, which need not be consecutive, and an additional 10 rounds for every 2 class levels after first. The Liminal may adopt the following Shapes:

Aquatic: The Liminal grows gills and its hands and feet become webbed. It can breathe water and make melee attacks as though not underwater. She also gains a swim speed each to her highest other movement speed and a bonus on Swim checks equal to her class level.

Bounding: The Liminal gains a climb speed equal to its highest movement speed and a bonus on Climb and Jump checks equal to its class level.

Shadow: The Liminal gains a bonus to its Hide and Move Silently checks equal to its class level, and enemies must re-roll successful hits when the Liminal has concealment.

Scent: The Liminal gains the Scent ability and the benefits of Track feat as long as this Shape is active

Distracting: The Liminal appears exceptionally beautiful and impressive, making her lies far more believable. She gains a bonus to Bluff and Intimidate checks equal to her class level, and a bonus to Diplomacy checks equal to half her class level.

Earthborn: The Liminal gains a burrow speed equal to her highest movement speed and can breathe normally underground, but cannot use a fly speed granted by any source.

Swift: The Liminal gains a +30ft bonus to all its movement types.

Flight (minimum level 5): The Liminal grows wings, granting it a fly speed equal to its highest other movement speed.

Enduring (minimum level 5): Choose an energy type. The Liminal gains Resistance to that energy type equal to 3/4 its class level. It also benefits as though under an Endure Elements spell.

Optimise Form: The Liminal can optimise its form for a number of rounds equal to its 5 x Drive modifier per day. These rounds need not be consecutive. Activating or deactivating this ability is a swift action. The Liminal may choose to optimise its physical or mental abilities. If it chooses physical, it gains 4 points, which may each be used to increase any of its physical abilities by one, and it may choose how many points to invest in each ability. If it chooses mental, it gains 4 points with which to enhance its mental attributes. At 7th level, the number of points increases to 6, and at 14th it increases to 8.

Touch of the Beast: At 2nd level, the Liminal gains either 2 natural slam or two natural claw attacks, dealing 1d6 damage each, as its primal side grants the Liminal strength even when it is not manifested.

Wild Empathy: As the Druid class feature. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildEmpathy)

Otherborn Nature: At 3rd level, the Liminal chooses to focus its abilities in one of the following ways. These abilities improve at 7th level, 11th level and 15th level.


Raging Beast: The Liminal chooses to unlock the most feral aspects of her inner nature. Whenever she is in a form adopted using her Wild Shape class feature, the Liminal may choose to enter a Rage, as the Barbarian class feature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm), except that the Rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the Liminal's Drive modifier. This ability may be used once per day. At 7th level, the Liminal gains an additional use of Rage. At 11th level, the Rage becomes Greater Rage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm#greaterRage) and the Liminal gains an additional use per day. At 15th level, the Liminal ceases to be fatigued after raging and gains a 4th use of Rage per day.

Flurry of Claws: The Liminal chooses to attack with speed and aggression. Whenever the Liminal make an attack with its primary natural weapon while Wild Shaping, it may make an additional attack at a -2 penalty. At 7th level, the Liminal gains Multiattack as a bonus feat, even if it does not meet the prerequisites, and its second attack with its primary weapon suffers no penalty. At 11th level, the Liminal gains the Pounce ability while using Wild Shape, unless the Wild Shape form chosen already has the Pounce ability, in which case she gains a bonus to damage equal to her Drive modifier while charging. At 15th level, for each consecutive melee hit after the first while Wild Shaping, the Liminal can choose to either deal additional damage equal to her Class Level or to force her opponent to succeed on a Fortitude save (DC = 10+ 1/2 the Liminal's HD + her Drive modifier) or be Dazed.

Nature-Linked: The Liminal gains an Animal Companion, as the Druid class feature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#animalCompanion), treating her Liminal level as her Druid level of the purposes of how powerful the Animal Companion becomes. At 7th level, the Animal Companion gains an Intelligence of 9, Improved Evasion and grants its master and itself the benefits of the Alertness feat while they are within 10ft of one another, in addition to the benefits granted by a higher effective Druid level. At 11th level, the Animal Companion gains spell resistance equal to its master's HD + 5, Intelligence 11, the ability to talk to its master and the ability to talk to other animals of its kind. At 15th level, the Animal Companion gains Intelligence 13, DR 5/-, and its master can, as a standard action, view the world through its companion's senses - sight, hearing, touch, taste and smell. This ability can be used over any distance as long as the Liminal and its Companion are on the same plane, and while it is used they may also communicate telepathically. The Liminal cannot use its own senses while it is doing this. Deactivating this ability is a free action.


Beast's Token: At 4th level, the Liminal chooses a token. This might be a scrap of fur, a feather, a small knife, or any object the Liminal chooses. This token may be enchanted like a masterwork weapon, with the same costs and time restrictions. Any enchantments placed on the token (both enhancement bonuses and special abilities) are applied to all the Liminal's natural attacks, both in its natural form and while Wild Shaping.

Verminous: From 4th level, the Liminal may transform itself into a Vermin with its Wild Shape class feature instead of into an animal. This is still subject to the same HD and size restrictions and still uses up a daily use of Wild Shape.

You Can't Take It With You: At 5th level, each time the Liminal Wild Shapes, choose one piece of equipment the Liminal has that is not a weapon, armour, or a shield. This piece of equipment continues to function despite being melded into the Liminal's body. For example, this can be used to retain a +4 Belt of Giant Strength's enhancement bonus to strength while Wild Shaping. At 10th level, the Liminal may choose two pieces of equipment to remain functional, at 15th level it may choose three, and at 20th level it may choose 4.

Fear His Nature: The Liminal's inner monster, when revealed, is far more fearsome than any physical form it might adopt. At 5th level, the Liminal gains the ability to, whether in its natural form or Wild Shaping, unleash a fearsome roar, shout or psychic projection as a standard action once per day per class level. All enemies within (30ft + 5ft per 4 HD) of the Liminal must pass a Will Save with a DC of 10 + 1/2 the Liminal's HD + Drive modifier or be shaken. This is a Mind-Affecting Fear effect. At 15th level, this bypasses immunity to Fear.

Know Thyself: From 6th level, when the Liminal adopts an alternate form with Wild Shape, it may choose one special quality, or supernatural attack (but not SLA) of that form which it can use as long as it remains in that form. It still retains all its original special qualities, spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks. At 12th level, it may choose 2 special abilities, and at 18th it may choose 3.

Power's Guard: From 6th level, the Liminal gains its Drive modifier as an insight bonus to its natural armour while Wild Shaping.

Gaze of the Beast: At 8th level, the Liminal gains low-light vision and Darkvision out to 30ft.

Agile Blow: From 8th level, the Liminal may choose to, instead of making a natural attack with a natural weapon, make a touch attack which, if it succeeds, knocks his opponent prone.

Crushing Strike: At 9th level, all the Liminal's natural attacks while he is using his Wild Shape class feature deal damage as though one size category larger, and is treated as one size category larger for the purposes of grappling.

Gigantic: From 10th level, the Liminal may use its Wild Shape class feature to adopt the form of a creature with the Giant type instead of the Animal or Vermin type.

Hunter's Life: From 12th level, whenever the Liminal deals damage with its primary natural attack while Wild Shaping, it recovers HP equal to 1/4 the damage dealt, and can choose to not inflict a further 1/4 to recover that damage as HP instead.

Practised Changer: From 13th level, the Liminal may use Wild Shape as a move action, and Shapeshift as a swift action.

Venomous Spirit: From 13th level, while Wild Shaping, the Liminal's primary weapon becomes poisoned. This poison has a Fort Save DC of 10 + 1/2 Liminal's HD + Drive modifier, and deals 1d4 Con damage as both its primary and secondary damage.

Hideous: From 14th level, the Liminal may use its Wild Shape class feature to adopt the form of an Aberration or Ooze type.

More To Life: From 16th level, the Liminal may expend a daily use of Wild Shape to instead activate one of the following abilities:


Immediately after Wild Shaping, the Liminal gains a full round's worth of actions in addition to any it might have remaining that round. This is a free action.

The Liminal may affect itself with a Heal spell, with a caster level equal to the Liminal's class level. This is a standard action.

The Liminal may cure itself of all forms of ability drain and ability damage, and may make a Fortitude saving throw to remove any negative levels it may have. One save is taken per negative level, and failing this save does not result in actual level loss. This is a standard action.

To increase the Con damage dealt by the Liminal's Venomous Spirit to 1d8 for both primary and secondary damage for 1 minute/level. This is a free action.

To affect all enemies within 5ft/HD of the Liminal with the Stunned condition for 1 round and the Sickened condition for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 the Liminal's HD if they fail a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 Liminal's HD + Drive modifier). Even if they succeed on the save or are immune to effects requiring a Fortitude save, targets are sickened for 1 round. This is a swift action.


Ubiquitous: From 17th level, the Liminal may expend two daily uses of its Wild Shape ability to adopt the form of a creature with the Construct or Undead subtype, though it must still use Know Thyself to gain the benefits of Undead or Construct traits.

Soul-Stuff: As of 17th level, the Liminal's Wild Shape forms are as much made of the power and raw energy of its inner nature as they are of flesh. While Wild Shaping, the Liminal gains DR/- equal to 1/2 its HD and once per encounter may gain Regeneration equal to 1/4 of its HD for 5 rounds. This regeneration is bypassed only by Epic magic weapons and weapons with the Magebane property (MIC).

Pan's Shadow: From 18th level, once per day, the Liminal may create a translucent duplicate of itself. This duplicate possesses all the class levels, feats, HD, ability scores, Wild Shape uses and HP of its creator at the time of its creation, except for the Pan's Shadow ability, and if the Liminal creates it while Wild Shaping, it begins in that form. The Liminal and its Shadow can communicate telepathically as long as they are on the same plane. This duplicate lasts for 10 minutes/class level and requires 5 minutes of intense concentration to create. If the concentration is disturbed, the process must be started again.

Diminutive Size: At 19th level, the Liminal can assume a Wild Shape form that is Diminutive in size.

Rend Soul: From 19th level, the Liminal's natural attacks while Wild Shaping are as much attacks on the soul as on the flesh, just as the body it has adopted is as much spirit as flesh. The Liminal's natural attacks while Wild Shaping ignore one source of DR the target has, bypass all concealment and miss chances and extend as force effects onto the ethereal plane.

Out Of This World: From 20th level, the Liminal can use 3 uses of its daily Wild Shape abilities to adopt the form of an Outsider or Dragon type creature.

Irrepressible Nature: At 20th level, the Liminal's inner self becomes unstoppable. The Liminal may use Wild Shape even when within an Antimagic Field, and entering one does not suppress its Wild Shape ability. This applies to any other ability or effect that could suppress Wild Shape, unless that effect was created by a deity.

Cogidubnus
2011-08-31, 03:11 PM
Right, aside from the lack of a decent ability for 19th level, I believe the Liminal is done. I actually had really good fun making it, so excuse me if I'm a little protective of its features, but please go ahead, comment, and try to help me refine it.

I'm guessing it's high Tier 3 if used normally, Tier 1 if used for Wish abuse. Might need a clause in Know Thyself about Wish and Miracle, actually...

DeAnno
2011-09-03, 05:19 AM
I think that as a general rule, it might be best to ban SLAs from Know Thyself. Also, this thing can do... a lot. After a casual glance, it is certainly high Tier 3, and may be verging on low Tier 2. Remember, if you choose the companion option you're basically a Druid with Full BAB, much better Wildshape abilities, and no spells.

And maybe the 19th level ability could let it assume an Elemental form for two Wild Shape uses? And/or Diminutive sized creatures?

Cogidubnus
2011-09-06, 08:06 AM
I think that as a general rule, it might be best to ban SLAs from Know Thyself.

I might well take your advice on that.



Also, this thing can do... a lot. After a casual glance, it is certainly high Tier 3, and may be verging on low Tier 2. Remember, if you choose the companion option you're basically a Druid with Full BAB, much better Wildshape abilities, and no spells.

Sort of the point. This class is supposed to be a viable alternative to the Druid if you want to use Wildshaping, and I think the lack of full casting makes it a lot less broken. At its heart, this class is good at hitting stuff, but is also flexible outside of combat to make it interesting to play.



And maybe the 19th level ability could let it assume an Elemental form for two Wild Shape uses? And/or Diminutive sized creatures?

I might well go with Diminutive. I avoided Elementals for three reasons - firstly because it might look a bit too much like a Druid clone, secondly because I felt there had to a few creature types you couldn't access and thirdly because I felt Elementals fitted the theme of your inner monster less well than any other creature type.

Eldest
2011-09-06, 09:31 PM
For the you can't take it with you, could you ever swap what equipment that is still effective?

Cogidubnus
2011-09-07, 02:38 AM
For the you can't take it with you, could you ever swap what equipment that is still effective?

Not while still in that Wild Shape form, no. You pick which equipment is effective each time you Wild Shape.

Eldest
2011-09-07, 07:24 AM
You might want to mention that in the entry, I actually read it as "pick one piece of equipment at level five. You can use this equipment while wildshaped."
As in, you can't ever switch what piece of equipment you chose.

Cogidubnus
2011-09-07, 08:32 AM
You might want to mention that in the entry, I actually read it as "pick one piece of equipment at level five. You can use this equipment while wildshaped."
As in, you can't ever switch what piece of equipment you chose.


At 5th level, each time the Liminal Wild Shapes, choose one piece of equipment the Liminal has that is not a weapon, armour, or a shield. This piece of equipment continues to function despite being melded into the Liminal's body. For example, this can be used to retain a +4 Belt of Giant Strength's enhancement bonus to strength while Wild Shaping. At 10th level, the Liminal may choose two pieces of equipment to remain functional, at 15th level it may choose three, and at 20th level it may choose 4.

I checked the clause was already in there before replying xD

Eldest
2011-09-07, 10:35 AM
Whoops.
For Pan's Shadow, is there anything preventing the duplicate from making a duplicate?

YouLostMe
2011-09-07, 12:57 PM
Optimize Form looks like it would make the Liminal a 1-level dip for many of the casting classes. Having a high Wis/Cha score (casting stat) will make for many rounds of Optimize Form, and then using Optimize Form to pump whatever the casting stat is will provide +2 to all spell DCs, extra bonus spells, MORE time in Optimize Form, and bonuses to any class stuff that runs off of those abilities.

Alternatively, someone like swordsage that stacks Wis and some physical stat will also want to take this to improve their DCs and capabilities. It's not as frightening a prospect as the casters getting +4 to their casting stat whenever they want it, but it's something to consider.

I would recommend not letting Optimize Form work unless the character's Liminal levels are half (or more than half) of their character level.

EDIT: I also recommend that you put Rend Soul as yoru 19th-level ability.

Cogidubnus
2011-09-07, 02:16 PM
Optimize Form looks like it would make the Liminal a 1-level dip for many of the casting classes. Having a high Wis/Cha score (casting stat) will make for many rounds of Optimize Form, and then using Optimize Form to pump whatever the casting stat is will provide +2 to all spell DCs, extra bonus spells, MORE time in Optimize Form, and bonuses to any class stuff that runs off of those abilities.

Alternatively, someone like swordsage that stacks Wis and some physical stat will also want to take this to improve their DCs and capabilities. It's not as frightening a prospect as the casters getting +4 to their casting stat whenever they want it, but it's something to consider.

I would recommend not letting Optimize Form work unless the character's Liminal levels are half (or more than half) of their character level.

EDIT: I also recommend that you put Rend Soul as yoru 19th-level ability.

The 1-level dip was a serious concern of mine, but I wanted Optimise Form on 1st level because there's a good chance that at first and second level, Wild Shape will only help you in one encounter, and without something else you've got only light armour proficiency and martial weapons to cover that gap. Making it require a certain % Liminal levels is a good plan.

Rend Soul might fit 19th, ta for the suggestion. I try not to just put an extra Wild Shape size in at any given level, so having both Rend Soul and Diminutive might work very well.

bobthe6th
2011-10-08, 11:10 PM
So, the token enchantable thing... it kinda seems OP, I mean all natural attacks. So at fourthyou could get it to +1 for 2000, with two natural attacks out of combat any way. To do this for a TWFighter it costs you 4000. Now wild into a hidra with flameing on the token...

On a side note, how does it work with infusions and buff spells? Say an infusion user adds a +1 abilaty to it with an infusion. Would all nat attacks get the boost?

Also, +6 skills? Full BaB? Two good saves? It may not be a normal melee, but that's kinda crazy good. Is there any weakness to this class? It seems to be a skill monkey/tank/with spell like abilaties arcane caster/ same for divine caster. It seems in need of a little depowering...
Edit:and it can battle feild control... sit on people with agile strike, roar them out of combat...

Cogidubnus
2011-10-09, 06:13 AM
The full BAB is probably the one I'm least certain about. I'll explain the other decisions.

6 skill points is largely because most of the homebrewers I've spoken to set 4 skill points as the mimimum to give any class, because 2 is hideously limiting, and I see this guy as being at least reasonably skillful, as they need to be able to use Bluff, Survival and Intimidate just from a fluff standpoint.
Ed: Actually, I agree. Made it 4 skill points.

Two good saves is similarly because I think it feels right for a class that's used to surviving alone but also relys a lot on its willpower.
I don't even know WHY it got a good reflex save....

I wouldn't say it can tank. Even with force armour, most creatures don't actually have very high ACs, at least not compared to the builds I'm used to seeing, and it only has d8 HP.

The enchantable token is...well, enchanting for TWF is cruel anyway and gimps an already weak style. I wanted to give a way of guaranteeing that whatever form you're in, you can actually have enchanted magical attacks, as you can't always predict what form (and how many attacks) you might end up aiming for. I'll think about how to tone it down.

Mangles
2011-10-10, 05:39 AM
to tone down the enchantment bonus without gimping the thing just allow it to make 1 token per type of natural attack, So you make a primary attack token which has your largest bonus and a secondary token for whatever other attack you may gain and maybe a third and forth one if your turning into a kick ass dragon.

Cogidubnus
2011-10-10, 06:57 AM
to tone down the enchantment bonus without gimping the thing just allow it to make 1 token per type of natural attack, So you make a primary attack token which has your largest bonus and a secondary token for whatever other attack you may gain and maybe a third and forth one if your turning into a kick ass dragon.

But then you have to put a certain amount of your wealth into tokens for natural attack numbers you may not end up using 50% of the time.

EdroGrimshell
2011-10-11, 01:57 PM
This should have specific feats for things like improving Drive and other such abilities.

And i may actually be using this, though i would like to know how the wildshape ability would interact with Wild feats before 5th level before i start, since it only says it doesn't qualify for PrCs, not feats, and i'm not sure if that was intentional or not.

Cogidubnus
2011-10-11, 02:33 PM
This should have specific feats for things like improving Drive and other such abilities.

And i may actually be using this, though i would like to know how the wildshape ability would interact with Wild feats before 5th level before i start, since it only says it doesn't qualify for PrCs, not feats, and i'm not sure if that was intentional or not.

That was intentional. I can't think of any Wild feats off the top of my head that you'd qualify for before level 5 that'd be too much of a problem. It was early prestige class entry that worried me (that's always a bit broken).

bobthe6th
2011-10-11, 04:38 PM
might make a cleaner version using the druid variant in PHBII. give it some more forms, and it looks less like a petting zoo. there was a home brew of more forms made at one point, was linked recently... would cut down the book work, and allow the player not to need to memorize the entire MMI-V for the one monster with perfect stuff.

Cogidubnus
2011-10-11, 04:42 PM
might make a cleaner version using the druid variant in PHBII. give it some more forms, and it looks less like a petting zoo. there was a home brew of more forms made at one point, was linked recently... would cut down the book work, and allow the player not to need to memorize the entire MMI-V for the one monster with perfect stuff.

It's worth a look into. I'm personally quite fond of the ability to switch between huge types of monsters, not necessarily for the perfect one, but for a variety of abilities for different situations, or just to try a slightly different combat style.

bobthe6th
2011-10-11, 04:50 PM
you could also see if you could borrow some of the mutation mechanics from the evolutionist, in my sig that Draken deserves full credit for. it looked good, and giving the Liminal an amount of mutation points when it wild shapes would let it keep that versatility. make your own set of mutations, and it would make it way more diverse. perhaps let it have a set group of forms it can always assume, then let it further mutate a set amount of times per day. with that you can chuck optimized form (the main problem for one level dips), and it would take less book work.

though yo would have to bug Draken about using it...

gabrion
2011-10-11, 07:30 PM
A lot of classes seem fully coherent when isolated, but one of the first things I think of is how they interact with other material. For this class a one level dip gets you: Wild shape 1x/day for 1 hour/day + 1 hour/day for every two non-wildshape class levels. Doesn't qualify them for Wild Shape PrCs, but natural spell seems fair game.
A myriad of short short term shapeshift abilities, including 10 rounds of +30 speed.
An untyped +4 bonus to any stat, useable 5x(Cha or Wis modifier)/day
That's just a one level dip. Even full casters might skip a casting progression level to get a free +4 to their primary stat.

Going a bit deeper, "Beast's Token" is awfully juicy for someone like a totemist. At least at 4 levels deep they've had to invest a bit to get it.

bobthe6th
2011-10-11, 07:35 PM
hah, wound the link
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78186
also, to make the beast token more dip unfriendly, make it work like a kensie from CW. make them waste their own xp to make the boost less useful. four level dip would hurt the totemist, four level dip + xp penalties hurts a lot more.

EdroGrimshell
2011-10-12, 08:32 AM
I actually think shapeshift would be better for this, making it count as Wild Shape at 5th level, and moving Optimize Form up a level or two wouldn't hurt. Maybe adding the Aspect of Nature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#wildShapeVariantAspectOfN ature) feature from the SRD at later levels or gaining Wild feats and allowing free uses of them, most likely represented as a pool of points based on your drive score.