RHD buyoff.

[Fouredged Sword]

How broken would it be if you allowed players to spend half the exp needed for thier next level to turn a racial HD into a class level?

This with LA buyoff would allow for quite a few races to be much more playable.

[137beth]

Don't allow them to exchange it for a class level. Instead, follow the same path as LA buyoff--their ECL is reduced by one. They keep the racial HD and its benefits, but don't get the increase to ECL from having that HD. As an added deterrent, say that they cannot buy off a HD at the same level as a LA.

[Fouredged Sword]

You then get characters with HD>ECL, and skills with more ranks than thier ECL would normaly allow.

I much prefer to have players pay a minimal cost and scale back the cost of RHD and LA as the power level of the game scales up to the point that such benifits are less overpowering.

A centaur racial abilities are not worth 4 levels by level 16. At level 5 they may be, but not for very long after.

[kestrel404]

Don't allow them to exchange it for a class level. Instead, follow the same path as LA buyoff--their ECL is reduced by one. They keep the racial HD and its benefits, but don't get the increase to ECL from having that HD. As an added deterrent, say that they cannot buy off a HD at the same level as a LA.

That would be a nightmare for GMs to take into account, I think

I like the idea of RHD buyoff at 1/2 level XP, but you need a limiter to prevent them from sitting at 1 level and just doing that over and over.

How about this - you may buy off 1 RHD for every class level you gain (that was not bought off) - So at RHD + 1 class level, you can buy off 1 RHD and becomd (RHD-1) + Class 2, then gain another class level and buy off another RHD for (RHD-2) + Class 4, etc.

[Fouredged Sword]

That would work for me. I just think that there is a point that a centaur fighter x is no more powerful than a human fighter x with y exp worth of crafted items where y is the total exp sacrificed to remove all La and replace all RHD.

I do agree that ou should have to gain a HD between replaceing any RHD. All races should be allowed to replace thier first RHD like 1 HD races do.

In fact the rule could simplify races with 1 racial HD gaining class levels for the first time. Just spend 500 exp and you are good to go, same rules as everyone else.

[tyckspoon]

In fact the rule could simplify races with 1 racial HD gaining class levels for the first time. Just spend 500 exp and you are good to go, same rules as everyone else.

*incomprehensible upset sounds* Races with 1 racial HD never actually use it! They just use class levels! THIS IS NOT A HUMANOIDS ONLY RULE. :smallyuk:

[kestrel404]

*incomprehensible upset sounds* Races with 1 racial HD never actually use it! They just use class levels! THIS IS NOT A HUMANOIDS ONLY RULE. :smallyuk:

Yeah. So just assume that everyone with class levels has already spent that 500xp...right?

Nonono, that came out wrong. If you're going to make it cost 500xp to get your first class level, and everyone automatically gets that class level by the standard rules, just give all the PCs with racial HD 500 free XP to make up the difference...

Or something.

No, I think that no matter how I considder it, it's just a poor idea.

[Fouredged Sword]

You can have the PC's face a goblin without class levels. They have a single humanoid HD. They could also have a class HD that replaced that humanoid HD.

There are no rules for how this happens, it just does.

[Lord Vampyre]

RHD buyoff would considerably increase a minotaur fighter above that of a typical human fighter. A minotaur gets reach and a high strength bonus (not to mention other abilities), compared to a standard fighter (a low tier class to begin with) is far more powerful. You would be better off simply readjusting the LA for particular races down to their CR.

If you're looking at RHD from a wizard's perspective, it is rarely beneficial to play a race with a LA, not to mention RHD. However, a straight fighter has a lot to gain from their RHD, since they are one of the more under-powered classes to begin with.

[Fouredged Sword]

Compare a minotaur to a fighter with an item of continous increased size and belt of ogre strength. How much exp would that item take to make? Is it more or less than the EXp sacrificed by the minotaur to remove those RHD and LA?

[kestrel404]

RHD buyoff would considerably increase a minotaur fighter above that of a typical human fighter. A minotaur gets reach and a high strength bonus (not to mention other abilities), compared to a standard fighter (a low tier class to begin with) is far more powerful. You would be better off simply readjusting the LA for particular races down to their CR.

If you're looking at RHD from a wizard's perspective, it is rarely beneficial to play a race with a LA, not to mention RHD. However, a straight fighter has a lot to gain from their RHD, since they are one of the more under-powered classes to begin with.

So what your saying is that melee cannot have nice things?

Besides, this is just as great for a wizard as it is for a fighter. Right now, you simply cannot play a caster that's got RHD, because every hit die is a massive blow to your effectiveness. But add RHD buyoff and you've got the potential to see a hag sorceror (that's the best match I can find in the SRD, but I'm sure there's lots more in the other MMs).

Also, note that your example of a Minotaur Fighter will be ECL 1514 before he's bought off all his fighter levels - and he'll be tens of thousands of XP behind the human to boot - so he'll be a level 12 fighter (large, +8 strength) facing off against a level 14-16 human fighter (who's probably got a permanent Enlarge Person cast on him!). I'm not seeing how this is at all unfair to the Human.

[Doug Lampert]

You can have the PC's face a goblin without class levels. They have a single humanoid HD. They could also have a class HD that replaced that humanoid HD.

There are no rules for how this happens, it just does.

Oh? What are the stats for this goblin with a RHD? Because the one in the SRD and the one in the monster manual have one CLASS LEVEL as warrior by default.

From the SRD:

Most goblins encountered outside their homes are warriors; the information in the statistics block is for one of 1st level.

Also from the SRD

Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws.

Humanoids with more than 1 Hit Die are the only humanoids who make use of the features of the humanoid type.

There is no such thing as a goblin with racial HD unless you mean a bugbear.

DougL

[Fouredged Sword]

The goblin is incorect then, but there are many creatures that have only 1HD like an awakend animal. When a 1HD awakend animal gains a class level does it replace it's 1 racial HD?

[sreservoir]

The goblin is incorect then, but there are many creatures that have only 1HD like an awakend animal. When a 1HD awakend animal gains a class level does it replace it's 1 racial HD?

there's no such thing as a 1 HD awakened animal.

[Fouredged Sword]

Huh, I guess you are right. Seems silly, and it feels to me like it is danceing around the issue.

More to the point, what say you of the above RHD buyoff idea?

[kestrel404]

Quit nitpicking. How about a Pixie? It's only got 1 HD. It's a Fey HD. You can play a pixie, and you get to replace that with a character class. A DM can choose to make a Pixie NPC with a character class instead of a Fey HD.

All FS is saying that there is no mechanism beyond fiat for how or when that happens.

[Coidzor]

As an added deterrent, say that they cannot buy off a HD at the same level as a LA.

If he wants to allow it at all, deterring people from taking the option is most likely not a priority.

[Aquillion]

Compare a minotaur to a fighter with an item of continous increased size and belt of ogre strength. How much exp would that item take to make? Is it more or less than the EXp sacrificed by the minotaur to remove those RHD and LA?The minotaur can also use the item of continuous size and the belt of ogre strength, remember.

[awa]

while I agree that a minotaur fighter with no la and free racial hit dice would make human fighters obsolete I do need to point out most size growth items are humanoid only and monstrous humanoids are not humanoids.

[Fouredged Sword]

It is not perfect, and some options will be better than others, but I am starting to feel that this would make a good change rather than a bad one.

If you think a minotaur is bad, compare it to a half minotaur with La by off. Large size and str bonus are for both. One is much better than the other for players though.

[Coidzor]

while I agree that a minotaur fighter with no la and free racial hit dice would make human fighters obsolete I do need to point out most size growth items are humanoid only and monstrous humanoids are not humanoids.

Considering that getting big is one of the primary recommended melee combos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026), yeah.

[DarkestKnight]

one idea that i've heard in my group, is that if you have multiple racial hd they get replaced by your class levels as you advance. i should mention my group doesn't usually do LA buyoff unless you have a LA of one or two. also i have never seen this method applied, so im not sure of any pitfalls other than taking classes with lower HD then what you started with and the amount of note taking required.


on the other hand you could always forgo class levels until you have levels equal to your racial hd, then progress normally.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I've heard of people replacing racial hit dice with levels in NPC classes like warrior or expert; they're at least better than some of the crappier monster hit dice.

[awa]

it actually depends on the hit die outsider and dragon are excellent hit dice types easily equal to most npc classes

[sreservoir]

it actually depends on the hit die outsider and dragon are excellent hit dice types easily equal to most npc classes

all except adept, really, and lots of dragons' rhd is even better.

but other than that, the only rhd worth considering (and only if you get other things out of them) are magical beast, monstrous humanoid, and possibly fey. anything other types probably aren't worth the abilities it grants if you have to take RHD for them.