Overthinking and Problem Joe

[Rossebay]

I have two issues, playground, and I think I need a little help.

I'm on summer break, as I have been for a few months, and D&D has taken up much of my time. Our group only meets once a week, sometimes twice, and we have 2 campaigns and the Tomb of Horrors going.

I get a lot of free time between sessions to think of new builds, draw up characters, run thought experiments... And man, do I ever. Whenever I write up a new build, I always want to switch out a character for that one.
In the past 48 hours:
-Fiend Prince, complete with Fiend Folio and FC1 feats and some template mixing and matching to make a decently powerful flavorful swordsman.
-Tribeless Lizardfolk, using the totem pole of his fallen tribe to smash his enemies. He was the shaman of his tribe (Druidic Avenger/Fighter/Barbarian mix), and he focuses on melee with druid levels for utility only. More flavorful and enjoyable than the first.
-Were-Deinonychus barbarian, who's been cursed with Lycanthropy and has set out to destroy those who made him this way.
And I want to play all three of them. And my current characters are a wizard, a pyrokineticist unarmed fighter, a psionic barbarian and a cleric of pelor, all more powerful than anyone else in their respective parties.


THEN, we have someone that I'll call Problem Joe. He doesn't optimize. At all. He's a freak about core and hates everything outside of it, and has told me multiple times that he dislikes my characters because they're too 'magicy' or off the wall.
His tomb of horrors character was a minotaur with one level of barbarian.
His character in the campaign with the wizard is a fighter 7. He's angry because I'm taking up his role in combat, while he made his constitution 10 or 12 and rolled low.
His character in the Psionic Barbarian campaign is a dwarf rogue (reincarnated from an elf rogue), so he's underleveled already, so he's not going to like that. And he hates my psicrystal because it can do his scouting job better than he can.
He's completely unoptimized, metagames without knowing it, complains about my characters being too magical, and doesn't like anything outside of core. And he thinks he's better than us because he's been playing D&D for 4 or 5 years... Yet, he tells me that fighter is a perfectly balanced class, and that I'm just a munchkin. He also references rule zero when we complain about things, but feels free to argue with the DM about anything he wants, simply because he's known the kid for longer.


So, what do I do about my character boredom, and... How do I handle Problem Joe?

Additional Information: I have ultimate sway in who gets to come to the events, and a lot of control over one of the campaigns because the DM is new, and relies on me for rule information and approval of his own creations.

tl;dr: I get bored with my characters very quickly, and rule-oblivious joe is in my group.

[BlueInc]

Ugh. Mixes of optimization levels do not a happy party make.

My advice? Make fun, un-optimized characters when you're playing with "core-only" people and find another, high-optimization group to play your bruisers in (maybe on the OOTS forums).

Another idea: Pick up DMing; if you have fun making characters, there's a decent chance you'd be good at it. Just make sure your creations are at the right power level relative to your players XD

[Rossebay]

Ugh. Mixes of optimization levels do not a happy party make.

My advice? Make fun, un-optimized characters when you're playing with "core-only" people and find another, high-optimization group to play your bruisers in (maybe on the OOTS forums).

Another idea: Pick up DMing; if you have fun making characters, there's a decent chance you'd be good at it. Just make sure your creations are at the right power level relative to your players XD

I've tried DMing. I just have a lot more fun playing, rather than controlling. It's easier for the groups if one of our two current DM's are the ones doing it all. I mean, when I DMed, everyone else had fun, but I didn't much enjoy directing the characters around. It was a lot of work.



Different levels of optimization don't, no. And I've tried to tone down characters in the past, but whenever I make a 'fun' character, it's either WAY overpowered in a way that I didn't forsee, or Problem Joe has a problem with it.

[CTrees]

Pla something with RHD and LA. interesting? Definitely. Low OP? Easily-you have to be careful to find something that isn't, really. If he's still got a problem... tell him to shove it.

[Metahuman1]

Look into PBP games for ways to throw out and test new characters and concepts. Worlds Largest Dungeon can be good for this.

As for problem Joe. Show him that thing the creators put out about system mastery and the Teir system. Better yet, show it too the whole group. If the rest of the group doesn't know how to optimize, start teaching them as much as there WILLING to learn, same for the DM in so far as challenging the newer more powerful builds you'll see. Problem Joe will likely refuse to learn, and that's ok.

Tell him when his characters start dieing that the offer is still on the table to learn character creation form a mechanical stand point when ever he want's to take it. Let his characters keep dieing, and use the explanation, that if there so weak, people who are gonna beat there lives on him later aren't gonna bother saving him form push over stuff so that he can get them killed when they hit the end of the dungeon.

The result should be problem Joe being forced to do some level of optimization or leave the group, and everyone being happyer for it.

[Elric VIII]

For the clutter of character ideas, I can't help you. I do that too. I have about 6 characters waiting to be played.

What you might find cathartic is making a word document or some other thing outlining the build, including all relevant info and some gear that you hope to acquire over the character's career. I do this and it helps me feel like I'm playing the character.


As for Joe, I don't suppose you've tried talking to him? For instance, about relative power levels of classes and pointing out that core is rather skewed (i.e. - it has 3 tier 1's, and a few tier 4-5's). Show him that Fighter Bonus Feats are not legitimate class features. Show him how splatbooks and the like actually bring the game closer to the mean power level.

If that doesn't really work or if he's not interested in listening, why is it your responsibility to cater to his whims? I gather that he is not the DM, so it just seems that he is obstinate and wants everyone to play his way.

[BlueInc]

Going off what Metahuman said, ask (!) if you can post some of their builds here for the Playground to tweak. Bring them up to your level :D

[Rossebay]

For the clutter of character ideas, I can't help you. I do that too. I have about 6 characters waiting to be played.

What you might find cathartic is making a word document or some other thing outlining the build, including all relevant info and some gear that you hope to acquire over the character's career. I do this and it helps me feel like I'm playing the character.


As for Joe, I don't suppose you've tried talking to him? For instance, about relative power levels of classes and pointing out that core is rather skewed (i.e. - it has 3 tier 1's, and a few tier 4-5's). Show him that Fighter Bonus Feats are not legitimate class features. Show him how splatbooks and the like actually bring the game closer to the mean power level.

If that doesn't really work or if he's not interested in listening, why is it your responsibility to cater to his whims? I gather that he is not the DM, so it just seems that he is obstinate and wants everyone to play his way.

I think I'll try that word document thing... It ought to help.


And, uhh, how exactly does one join a PbP game on here? I posted up something in a thread for a 'looking for game' sort of thing... Is there something I should do beyond that?

[2xMachina]

You can post a thread looking for a game, or you could join an existing one.

If there's a DM, they'll post the 16 rules to char gen into their game. So, follow them, and submit a sheet. When you're chosen, you then play in another thread.

[Greenish]

For the character concepts, put the ideas you haven't had to opportunity to use in a binder (real or mental one). Some day, you might have trouble coming up with one, so you could pull one from there.

Feeling the urge to switch up characters when you come up with something new and cool and shiny is understandable (I suffer it, too :smalltongue:), but if your existing character is properly rooted in the campaign (and you have stuff to look forward to with them), it should pass.

As for Problem Joe, you could tone down to about the same level as the rest of the players (sans Joe), and then just mind your own business and let Joe keep his problems.

[Kol Korran]

i can't quite open you with problem Joe, my way of having fun players in my group is to pick mature "work together" fun people CAREFULLY in the first place. we usually talk with problem players, give them about two chances, and then tell them we decided not to play with them again.

about the multiple characters changing thing... here are some ideas:
- i may be wrong, but i feel that you plan your characters already fully fleshed out from the get go- already successful adventurers, their development already done. i suggest to try looking for chances for character development in the world and story. prove something to someone (even yourself). tie your character to another character's story or fate, find new religion or belief, find disappoitment, find success, find love, find hate, find revenge and the like. make your character more alive and evolving, changing, developing. it would feel like a more complete character, a character that can still surprise and intrigue you, in a way, a combination of an old and new character.

try to work with your DM to provide such opportunites in the game, though you'll have to seize and utilize them. i have two players who have done that. they find it quite rewarding.

- don't just follow adventures laid out by the DM, seek out specific goals for your character, challenging ones, and talk with the DM to make adventures to allow them. more personal, tailored adventures for your character increase the involvement in it much more. make connections and a place for it in the world (and i don't mean through the background, but through actual play!) and it becomes realer, more important to you in the world.

this is my advice. not sure it is really relevant, but here goes

[Groverfield]

I think "Problem Joe" might not be the problem... as much as the DM--look at his characters.
Minotaur barbarian, not sure what tomb of horrors is, but I'll assume that he was thinking that a Minotaur would have an uncanny accuracy in navigating it, due to Minotaur racial. If the DM's not giving him a chance to shine, then playing this will get asinine rather quick.
Fighter with "10 or 12" con... seriously, if he was allowed to keep scores where his secondary stat might not even have a bonus next to a wizard with enough good scores to gish well, then there was party balance issues from the get go. Also, if the campaign didn't start at around level 1-3ish, then his fighter never has had, and never will have a chance to shine.
... And a dwarf rogue that used to be an elvish one... wow, the DM that let him do minimal optimization for an elvish rogue, and then turn it into a dwarvish one must REALLY hate him. Just imagine losing, not only levels, but feats and AC for not having enough DEX.

I can kinda see him grudging the guy running around with psionic barbarian that was cursed with awesome of lycanthropy, a tieflingish(?) swashbuckler that actually works, and someone who's not only taking up their role of the party, but his too.

I'd say go to him on friendly grounds, and just talk it over while being at least 50 yards from any dice, a SRD, or any books, and see if you can talk it out.