Making a front-line fighter, need help (3.5)

[Jops85]

Okay so I'm starting up a new campaign and need to make a PC. 3.5 in the Faerun campaign setting and sticking pretty closely to the lore.

Our current party is a three-person group, rogue and sorcerer. I'm the third character and I'm guessing I need to fill the tanking role. My only other character was a druid so martial builds are a little new to me. Oh! And my character is a Drow for plot reasons (the LA +2 type). We're starting between lvl 8-10. As for stats, I rolled one 9 and the rest are decent.

So I'm looking for a build that can hold its own as a front-liner, feasibly into the higher and maybe epic levels. I don't want to roll a cleric but I'm open to just about anything else. Any advice for a newb?

[Eldariel]

Druids and Clerics are some of the best martial types. For a Drow, Duskblade [Player's Handbook II] could be very interesting. Some type of a martial Gish could work too, but you really probably want to use magic. Is the option of Lesser Drow [Player's Guide to Faerun] on the table? Two class levels is generally worth far, far more than the extra racials Drow get.

Alternatively, level adjustment buyoff [Unearthed Arcana] could help you a ton to catch up (basically, instead of starting two levels behind you'd be 7000 XP and one level behind). You could buy the second point of level adjustment away at ECL 11 (costing you 10000 more XP) and then you'd be considered Level Adjustment 0 (just, behind on XP). This is generally much more fair since Level Adjusted abilities really don't carry well into latter levels (they aren't worth as much as the class abilities) so you can catch up and be much less than 2 levels behind. As you're behind on levels, you also gain more XP so you slowly catch up to the rest.


But yeah, for high level warriors, spellcasting is usually your best bet, especially for a drow. It might be worth it to make an arcane warrior/wizard type deal. Swordswinging really doesn't scale as well as spells do and if you're looking at epic, you should definitely have 9th level spells by then. So using something that gives you the combination of martial ability and magic would help a ton.

[Jops85]

Thanks!

Hmm, so I guess my goal is to try to find a PrC to make my wizard into a proper melee type. It works given that they're favored class is wizard. I can do ECL buy offs, but I'm not sure about the LA 0 Drow and I likely won't be able to get in touch with my DM before the game.

I also like the IDEA of the Duskblade, and the lore, but I'm not so sure how well it moves into the later levels.

Love your Barbarian guide, btw, I was reading that and considering it as an opportunity for my Drow, but I think a wizard/martial type would be best?

[Greenish]

Hmm, so I guess my goal is to try to find a PrC to make my wizard into a proper melee type.You mean Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)?

[Metahuman1]

Best option: Druid. There the best Melee class in the game.

Second Best option: If you have four good stats, Cleric. Second best melee in the game.

Third: Duskblade. This has some awesome application, particularly with a bit of house ruling on TWF or the proper use of the elvin court blade or the right reach weapons.

Fourth: Warblade. In general, best Melee class in the game that doesn't rely on casting lots of buff spells or turning into a dragon or a Treant. Int, Dex, Con required, and Str also required with out a bit of finagling. Oh look, you have a boost too 2 out of three of those. (And with enough system mastery, Con can also be dropped.)

Fifth: Swordsage: Not quite the Warblade, but still plenty awesome. Highly advise taking Shadow blade, Weapons Finesse, Adaptive style, Faerie Mysteries Initiate, and Kung fu Genius. Low mad but feat intensive. And it can be done with several different variations and thus a lot of variety in fighting style.

Sixth: If all the others Fail, crusader. Your arguably the best tank class in the game, though I'd also argue that with that choice or race swordsage, particularly with the described build above, is strictly better.

[Eldariel]

Thanks!

Hmm, so I guess my goal is to try to find a PrC to make my wizard into a proper melee type. It works given that they're favored class is wizard. I can do ECL buy offs, but I'm not sure about the LA 0 Drow and I likely won't be able to get in touch with my DM before the game.

I also like the IDEA of the Duskblade, and the lore, but I'm not so sure how well it moves into the later levels.

Love your Barbarian guide, btw, I was reading that and considering it as an opportunity for my Drow, but I think a wizard/martial type would be best?

Martial Wizard is definitely your best bet for late levels. Barbarian would kinda require Runescarred Berserker to truly keep up; magic is just that good (and you'd need an epic progression to allow you to reach 9th level spells and get Epic Spellcasting).

The big Wizard Gish builds are:
X 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight ->

Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)/Abjurant Champion 5

X 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

X 1/Wizard 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 4


X represents any martial class (though Spellsword requires Heavy Armor Prof, Jade Phoenix Mage requires martial maneuvers and Eldritch Knight requires all Martial Weapon Profs so those things must be kept in mind when choosing). I'm partial to Ranger in most shells for the skillpoints and good stuff.


They all hit the magic mark of 16+ BAB (4 attacks) and 9th level spells by level 20. The biggest hurdle you'll be dealing with is, of course, the fact that they tend to take a while to really pick up; gishes mature quite slowly (though with judicious use of magic, they do decently even early on) since they lose all the caster levels and BAB early on. This combined with your level adjustment can make for a rough first few levels.

Each of them offers something different; Jade Phoenix Mage has martial maneuvers (though from only one good discipline), Swiftblade has the haste enhancements, Eldritch Knight and Sacred Exorcist are pretty vanilla (though Sacred Exorcist gets Turn Undead which can fuel divine feats like Divine Might of course).

[herrhauptmann]

Eldariel,
Looks like you've steered him quite well. Though if he's starting at level 8 or 9, he's already at the point where he's coming into his own.

What about the sorcadin?
Paladin 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

[Jops85]

Thanks to everyone replying, I'm pretty curious how this Sorcadin will work and i'm looking at my books now :D

[Eldariel]

Thanks to everyone replying, I'm pretty curious how this Sorcadin will work and i'm looking at my books now :D

Sorcadin's major issue is that Sorcerer is a spell level behind which really hurts when your spell progression already lags behind in a Gish chassis. If you can overcome that hurdle, it can work out very well though, with a smartly designed spell list.

You get Cha to saves and more importantly, Cha-based Turning for Divine Might which can absolutely wreck face alongside Arcane Strike (which should 100% be your level 9 feat). Really, character level 9 is the major turning point where Gishes tend to come on their own.

However, if you start out at ECL 8, you're looking at Drow 1/Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1 (assuming buyoff) meaning you will still be kinda hurting. ECL 10, you'd get to Abjurant Champion 2 which really helps (not to mention, you'd be able to complete your buyoff then), alongside the so-very-key level 3 spells (those you get ECL 9).

Spell list obviously needs to contain:
- True Strike
- Grease
- Shield
- Benign Transposition (Spell Compendium)
- Mage Armor
- Wings of Cover (Races of the Dragon)
- Alter Self
- False Life
- Ruin Delver's Fortune (Spell Compendium)
- Greater Magic Weapon

Wraithstrike if allowed, of course. The good news with Sorcadin is that since you only lose 2 BAB, you're a reasonably respectable melee combatant (equivalent to a Cleric of the same level). The bad news is, of course, that between level adjustment and losing 2 caster levels your spells are lagging badly behind yet.


My biggest gripe with a Sorcadin is that they're totally screwed skill-wise; Paladins get no skills, Sorcerers get no skills and you have no Int-synergies so you get absolutely zero skills overall. That and their spellcasting is kinda slow. But meh, it's a solid choice.

[Jops85]

Haha, sorry to keep needing help, definitely appreciate all of it btw. From the looks of it, I feel like Duskblade may be a simpler move into what I want - I'm just concerned that I have potentially 20 lvls of being the only front-line fighter and don't want to nerf myself.

As for the Barbarian w/ Runescarred Berserker, I'm going to take a look at Unapproachable East and see if I can't talk the DM into it.

[Eldariel]

Runescarred Berserker is very much like Duskblade in power. Neither gets 9th level spells by level 20 so you'll have to work with your DM to get them rather swift epic progressions to get there. Improved Spell Capacity admittedly does it for Duskblade quite quickly but you do indeed give up quite a bit of your early prowess.

Power-wise, a Wizard/Sorcerer Gish is by far your best bet, for what it's worth. But all those shells are already on the table; pick which you want or go with something else.

[Midnight_v]

Okay so I'm starting up a new campaign and need to make a PC. 3.5 in the Faerun campaign setting and sticking pretty closely to the lore.

Our current party is a three-person group, rogue and sorcerer. I'm the third character and I'm guessing I need to fill the tanking role. My only other character was a druid so martial builds are a little new to me. Oh! And my character is a Drow for plot reasons (the LA +2 type). We're starting between lvl 8-10. As for stats, I rolled one 9 and the rest are decent.

So I'm looking for a build that can hold its own as a front-liner, feasibly into the higher and maybe epic levels. I don't want to roll a cleric but I'm open to just about anything else. Any advice for a newb?

When I read this... I can't help but think you'd be doing your party a bigger favor as a crusader over duskblade. I'm a fan of both, I like the duskblade cause it feels like a smart,arcane, barbarian.
However, looking at your party... It seems like the option to inspire the party with hitpoints when you face smack a critter is a better option.

Also just having thicket of blades up means when people are next to you they can't get away from you, it's kind of a big deal.

So I'm going to be the voice of dissent here and say while, the duskblade has magic... A Crusader using his awsome blade magic is also epic.

Oh and there's white raven tactics, for which your party will love you, as long as you use it on them (and never on you).

Edit: You also get +2 chr as a drow, its nice to use those racial bonuses you know.

Edit 2: You'll be likely to never fail a saving throw.

[Drachasor]

My biggest gripe with a Sorcadin is that they're totally screwed skill-wise; Paladins get no skills, Sorcerers get no skills and you have no Int-synergies so you get absolutely zero skills overall. That and their spellcasting is kinda slow. But meh, it's a solid choice.

Yeah, the skill thing really sucks...though it mostly sucks in terms of flavor. It isn't hard to give large boosts to skill rolls.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, the skill thing really sucks...though it mostly sucks in terms of flavor. It isn't hard to give large boosts to skill rolls.

Well, generally you lose out on composite result regardless, since the Wizard-base builds have the same boosts available. The real question is, what level is considered acceptable by the player. Does one want to get +100 in something or is +80 enough.

[Essence_of_War]

To give you something TOTALLY different.

Hexblade could also be an option. Many of the fear optimization techniques actually come from the DotU sourcebook, so it fits nicely with your flavor.

I'm partial to a hexblade with a little martial adept:
Hexblade5/AbjChamp3/Crusader1/AbjChamp4-5/JPM1-9

Alternatively, you seem like an excellent candidate for a Suel Arcanamach:
Duskblade4/Warblade2/Suel1-4/Abjchamp1-5/SpellSword1/Warblade 3-6

Or a Warblade w/ Cleric Dip for devotion feats!

Whatever you end up doing, as Eladriel said, try REALLY hard to get the LA bought-off. You're going to find yourself really unimpressive at higher levels without the LA bought off.

[Gnaeus]

For duskblade, hexblade or Sorcadin, if you can swing it, consider getting an improved familiar if you can spare the feats. Your group is very small, and lacking in healing, and having a little buddy with a healing belt and a utility wand using your cross class ranks in UMD could really help you. Especially in a tiny group, breaking the action economy is very valuable. If you can't make it work, suggest it to your sorcerer.

[Essence_of_War]

Adding onto what Gnaeus said, with the Hexblade you can actually give away your familiar for Dark Companion ACF, then get it again with the acquire familiar feat and then improve it if you'd like with Imp. Familiar.

All options you should be aware of :smallsmile:

[Midnight_v]

Uhmm... the Op hasn't popped in yet, but I again strongly suggest the Crusader the more I think about it.
One of the things I think is that you as a sorcadin might just step on the sorc in the parties toes, depending on spell selections. So if you go that route you should talk to him about it.
Though the class that plays most traditionally like the frontliner in the (protect the party) sense is the crusader.
Heres a cool one...
The Song of Death: Bardic Badass (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864106/Song_of_Death:_Bardic_Badass)
Which is a bard Crusader build that buffs using Song of the White Raven.
Hopefully you'll be able to get some use out of this as its already completly flushed out.

[Jops85]

The hurricane has knocked out power so I haven't been on, I'll be reading some suggestions though in a few. I still haven't confirmed ToB is allowed yet :/

[Essence_of_War]

I just got mine back recently too.

Good luck with getting along without the sweet sweet nectar of electricity.

And if you get a chance, try to confirm ToB, it gives you vastly more/better options.:smallsmile: