View Full Version : Breaking Stuff: A "DM vs. Player Fallacy" Question
Isn't anything where you start actively thinking on mechanics ooc based? Or does the fighter or whatever class actually think in the same terms.
''Hey guys I just leveled up. Plus one to hit!''
Isn't anything where you start actively thinking on mechanics ooc based? Or does the fighter or whatever class actually think in the same terms.
''Hey guys I just leveled up. Plus one to hit!''
Again, they are representations in the same way a figurine is a representation. Rolling a d20 is not symbolic of some built in luck mechanic to the universe, but a tool to randomize factors. Environmental things that may screw with your attack, a poor or great performance, etc. are all encompassed in the die roll. Leveling up is the same way. You can think of doing 8 damage to kill something as 'doing 8 damage to kill something' but you don't have to.
This is something that is evident in just about any roleplaying game or manner of play- how are mechanics thought of? Mechanics are a symbol. Nothing more, IMO.
What I'm getting at is that when you level you're thinking ooc by the very nature of thinking about mechanics unless ic the characters actually know of these happenings and there terms. You know like the oots verse or several games that were essentially built to troll everything including system mechanics using system mechanics.
For example the low cr goblin who rolled five twenties in a row to attack (We allow some verrrry diverse crit tables), knocked me twenty feet into the air swinging underhand with club, jumped after me, comboed me in mid air, and then somehow bit what remained in half...
That was all at once the most terrifying, hilarious, and sad thing that has ever happened to me. Worse that it repeated with the same dice next encounter. You know what I learned that day? The dms favorite dice hates me. Also crazy plot about the gods being dnd players, and the entire world being a man made illusion including us... Weird.
What I'm getting at is that when you level you're thinking ooc by the very nature of thinking about mechanics unless ic the characters actually know of these happenings and there terms. You know like the oots verse or several games that were essentially built to troll everything including system mechanics using system mechanics.
For example the low cr goblin who rolled five twenties in a row to attack (We allow some verrrry diverse crit tables), knocked me twenty feet into the air swinging underhand with club, jumped after me, comboed me in mid air, and then somehow bit what remained in half...
That was all at once the most terrifying, hilarious, and sad thing that has ever happened to me. Worse that it repeated with the same dice next encounter. You know what I learned that day? The dms favorite dice hates me. Also crazy plot about the gods being dnd players, and the entire world being a man made illusion including us... Weird.
I don't think about it that way, then. Obviously, I am not literally swinging a sword. But knowledge of the mechanics need not be OOC. My character may not know that a Dwarven Waraxe does d10 damage, but d10 damage doesn't mean anything in and of itself. It symbolizes how hurtful the weapon is. The Dwarven Waraxe does more damage than a longsword, less than a greataxe. Which my character very well might know. To say rolling dice are out of character moments one might as well say all moments are out of character since you never literally teleport to an alternate dimension. It's really just splitting hairs, I think.
It's ooc because you're picking up feats and mechanics fluffed into objects or abilities or traits for convenience. Now unless you tell me that all character resources have their texts rewritten as say... ic descriptions when you read the text you're thinking ooc. In a sense all actions are in fact ooc yes. You've never cast a spell and neither have I. Now lets define context in this situation. The context in most games is attempting to tell a story with different people taking different viewpoints according to playstyle and position at the table under a set of rules to keep things cohesive. Now then would you care to give a different definition or explain how reading about the plus five sword of dragonslaying as loot you plan on buying is a part of that process?
It's ooc because you're picking up feats and mechanics fluffed into objects or abilities or traits for convenience. Now unless you tell me that all character resources have their texts rewritten as say... ic descriptions when you read the text you're thinking ooc. In a sense all actions are in fact ooc yes. You've never cast a spell and neither have I. Now lets define context in this situation. The context in most games is attempting to tell a story with different people taking different viewpoints according to playstyle and position at the table under a set of rules to keep things cohesive. Now then would you care to give a different definition or explain how reading about the plus five sword of dragonslaying as loot you plan on buying is a part of that process?
I only read about stuff like that if I am creating an already high level character and then it is because I am trying to create an already fleshed out character and am using the mechanics to represent my character concept. If my character is already made, I will only obtain weapons my character comes across and only request weapons my character has had personal experience with. I won't plan on purchasing any type of weapon my character does not have explicit knowledge of.
Everything you get leveling up refluffed to ic descriptions along with everything bought yes or no? And yes in the context of a running game.
Everything you get leveling up refluffed to ic descriptions along with everything bought yes or no? And yes in the context of a running game.
If I am DMing, yes. A +2 keen sword may just be crafted by a Hatori Hanzo equivalent or maybe it is enchanted. But it isn't a +2 Keen. That is just code talk for a well balanced, sharper than sharp sword.
To be a plus two doesn't a sword have to be enchanted by raw? Also considering the other half of the issue what about feats, spells, and the like?
To be a plus two doesn't a sword have to be enchanted by raw? Also considering the other half of the issue what about feats, spells, and the like?
Yeah, I am just saying the sword can be refluffed pretty liberally the way I see it. Maybe someone infused magic by virtue of being a legendary swordswmith.
Just as BAB represents a characters general combat prowess, feats represent a character improving in certain combat maneuvers or weapon styles or whatever. Skill points just compare one persons experience, talent, and knowledge in an area to anothers. Again, this is true of almost any D&D game though some people may choose to see them as more mechanical absolutes than others.
Spells are still spells.
In terms of spells I meant things like fireball and other such damage dealers or really anything that mentions dice in the spell description.
How do you translate say... 5d6? If it's ignored as a symbol and nothing more how do differentiate spells with different powers let alone arbitrary save dcs?
In terms of spells I meant things like fireball and other such damage dealers or really anything that mentions dice in the spell description.
How do you translate say... 5d6? If it's ignored as a symbol and nothing more how do differentiate spells with different powers let alone arbitrary save dcs?
A spell that does 5D6 is recognized as a deadlier spell than one that only does 2D6 because, when observed, the 5D6 spell is more destructive. A spell with a high DC means it is more straining to the body/quicker and harder to dodge/takes more strength of mind to overcome than a spell with a lower DC.
This is how D&D was designed, not just how I play it, since rules are there to simulate how a fight will go in the D&D world. Unless it is something like Goblins or OTTS or Erfworld, where the characters actively recognize their mechanics system. This is not very common for actual campaigns.
You'd be surprised how common meta campaigns are. As for immersion being directly addressed by npcs fairly often among other such shenanigans is hilarious. The room you're in is part of the setting and the players and dm are often more or less gods. Those are truly games without an ooc as your characters are played as hearing table talk often. Yes that includes the leveling and it is awesome!
You'd be surprised how common meta campaigns are. As for immersion being directly addressed by npcs fairly often among other such shenanigans is hilarious. The room you're in is part of the setting and the players and dm are often more or less gods. Those are truly games without an ooc as your characters are played as hearing table talk often. Yes that includes the leveling and it is awesome!
Usually, the meta-knowledge is the PCs, (not the NPCs,) and the comments jokes and throw-a-way-gags in my experience. Still, a truly meta campaign would be pretty funny and, I suppose, awesome, but after a couple of sessions I know I would bore of the novelty as a player.
And when the plot revolves around changing the fate of the world by manipulating pc and a few npcs alike to suit your goals as a player whether they be messing around, trolling the dragon your characters are fighting mid battle because you can, or just messing with peoples heads for the fun of it. Oh and there's that whole inter party intrigue goals for when you aren't feeling as lulsy. Also the npc gods span the range from potion abuser, to sociopath, to average guy with no idea what's going but with incredible power and back again.
Yuki Akuma
2011-09-03, 07:40 PM
There was a story where this guy had some sort of horrible disease. He had to take a certain potion several times a day I think, to keep it in check. His only real bonus was to alchemy specifically so he was able to make his own potion. The dm looked at it, agreed, then proceeded to, in the first fight, have an orc or whatever just HAPPEN to smash his potion flask. The player had a few extras on hand so no big deal. Then later on we learn that most of his backups had been destroyed. /sigh. They go to town and the player says he is renting a kitchen or whatever to craft some more of his potion.
The dm is really pushing him to go with the group to meet the king, but the player is basically saying, "Look, you destroyed all my potion, I need more, and itll take several hours to craft. They can meet the king, get the quest, then fill me in when we meet back up." The dm then tries to arrange him to fail his craft attempt, (thank god for that bonus that made it almost impossible) then proceeded to tell him the kitchen caught fire, destroying all his potion materials, and now the villagers think he is a witch or something. When the player loses it, the dm basically gives off some standard, "I didnt want you here anyways" type response.
Wow, I remember that story.
Good times. (And by good times I mean 'what happened was horrible but the story was entertaining'.)
Provengreil
2011-09-04, 09:31 AM
Wow, I remember that story.
Good times. (And by good times I mean 'what happened was horrible but the story was entertaining'.)
You speak of That Lanky Bugger. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23784)
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