Investigator Bard

[Ardantis]

So I'm starting a 3.5 game, and I need help building a Bard detective.

I'm thinking a charismatic "bumbler," along the lines of Columbo, Psyche, and Monk (of their respective television series), who uses the appearance of social ineptitude as a cover for his brilliant deductive abilities.

Note: My partner is a Master of Many Forms Wildshape Ranger. We are starting at level 6 (the first level of his prestige class).

I'm looking for advice on feats, skills, spells, and songs, maybe prestige classes. Because this is primarily a social game, I do not need 9th level spells (although UMD makes other classes' spells available), nor do I need to max out inspire courage. I am most interested in specific abilities which allow me to gather information, analyze clues, interview suspects, and keep up the charade of being inept.

Here's what I'm thinking so far:

Feats:
Urban Tracking

Skills:
Perform (oratory? comedy?)
UMD (to grab spells and abilities from other lists)
Gather Information (for Urban Tracking)
Spot
Search
Sense Motive
Listen
Hide
Move Silently
Decipher Script?
Diplomacy
Bluff
Knowledge (history for the bonus to Bardic Knowledge)
Speak Language

Spells:
Charm Person
Read Language
Locate Object
Glibness
Scry

Songs:
I'll be getting a lot of mileage out of Fascinate and Suggestion. What feats allow me to cast spells while Performing that are not identifiable as spells?

EDIT: Also races. I think Human is probably best, for the skill points and feat. Silverbrow Human gives me access to Dragonfire Inspiration, but it's not really in the spirit of the character and I lose the skill point per level. Don't know if any of the other races would be worth it. Maybe Gnome?

[Jude_H]

There's a Disguise Spellcasting feat in Complete Adventurer (the 3.0 version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#disguiseSpell) is OGC; I don't think it's changed), but there is a skill trick in Complete Scoundrel that disguises spellcasting once per encounter; typically that's plenty, and 2 skill ranks is much cheaper than a feat slot. Both can be combined with the Melodic Casting feat in Complete Mage, which allows spellcasting during Bardic Performance.

I can't remember whether Bards get Spymaster's Coin. It's a spell in Complete Scoundrel that basically lets you bug people and places at a very low cost. If you can't get the spell, you can at least get an item of it.

You might also be interested in the Hindsight spell from the Spell compendium; it's level 6, so it won't come up in the game until later, but it gives you the ability to look into the past and see historic events with great detail.

You might also be interested by the pathfinder Detective archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/detective). It's PF, but it ships pretty nicely over to 3.5 (it trades out some class abilities that the 3.5 Bard doesn't have, but given that it loses Inspire Courage, it's a pretty fair trade). It gives some very fitting abilities, focusing on interrogations, searches and trapfinding.

[Ardantis]

JudeH

Disguise Spell, or, alternately, Conceal Spellcasting- YES

Melodic Casting- YES

Spymaster's Coin- YES

Thanks for the ideas.

EDIT: The PF Detective class is pretty cool, although I feel it lacks some of the "Bardy" feel. Works great for Sherlock Holmes or even Columbo, as a more straight character, but I think I might go for a more "goofy" role. Mechanically, though, it is clearly superior. I'll have to think about it.

[Coidzor]

...Oh god. It's Turner and Hooch. :smalleek:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

...Oh god. It's Turner and Hooch. :smalleek:

Or worse...

Inspector Clouseau!

[Ardantis]

Hey, I love Turner and Hooch!

[Thespianus]

Hooch is crazy...

[Fitz10019]

That's a fun character idea. Here're my contributions:

Serene Visage (SpComp) - bonus to bluff

Sticky Fingers (SpComp) - for snagging evidence that the Watch would take

Delusions of Grandeur (SpComp) - inflate the ego of your suspect

Entice Gift (SpComp) - get your suspect to give you the evidence he's holding

Reveille (SpComp) - the dead tells how he died

Listening Coin (SpComp) - listen through a coin

[Treblain]

If you find yourself relying a lot of spells, Lyric Spell lets you trade some Bardic Music for spells. With Extra Music it's very useful. I never found Fascinate and Suggestion to be very good, since you don't get Mass Suggestion until 18, which means it's very hard to use unless you can get the subject alone.

Bardic Knack can free up some skill points, especially combined with Jack Of All Trades.

Use Perform (Oratory) to make long-winded summation speeches that go through all the suspects' motives and reveal who the murderer is.

[Kavurcen]

Complete Adventurer includes a detective and crime-solving oriented PrC called Vigilante.

[Drachasor]

Hmm, are you married to being a bard? A Factotum might do the job a bit better (and it is int based, so you'll have more skill points for knowledges and the like).

Edit: I am not saying you should do this, but rather it is another good class that can do the same thing easily enough that has a bit of a different flavor.

[Zaq]

There's the Investigate feat in ECS. Unfortunately, it's one of those feats that I find to be kind of insulting, because it's one of those things that you should be able to do with just a skill check (MAYBE a skill trick, though I'd slightly disagree with that as well) instead of a whole feat. Kind of like Track, really. I would talk to your GM about it and see what they have to say. Most GMs I've met agree that it's a stupid feat and will let you do the stuff contained therein without burning a feat slot on it, and if so, awesome! If not, well, that'll at least be a feat to take.

Also, if you can get some Gloves of Object Reading . . . do so. Just trust me on this one. Do so. Do so now. MIC pg. 107. So worth it.

[Quirp]

In the 3.0 book Masters of the Wild there is a PrC called Harrier of the Guard (or something similiar, I only have the german version: Spürhund der Wache). It is a detective class with several abilities that might help solving crimes or mysteries.

[Human Paragon 3]

There's a feat called Master Manipulator that should be just what you want. It allows you to force somebody to slip up and give you information through rhetorical tricks. It has a couple other uses, too. I think it's in PHBII, but might be Complete Adventurer.

[Ardantis]

Wow, thanks for all the great specific feedback.

OK, so here we go...

Fitz~

Those spells are all MONEY for the build. Thanks for the recommendation, just got a copy of Spell Compendium and looked them up.

I especially like the one where you talk to a dead body, and get an almost poetic rendition of the end of his life. Touching and literate.

Treblain~

Lyric Spell, Jack of all Trades, and Bardic Knack all suit the character, although I'm not sure if I'll use Knack and Jack. I have a feeling that I'll need the extra spells, but I'm not so sure how I want to handle skills and/or if I want Bardic Knowledge. Knack probably fits the character trope better than Knowledge, though, and I already have more skills I want than skill points.

I didn't realize that you needed to get your target alone to use fascinate and suggestion. I'll keep that in mind.

Perform (Oratory) is PERFECT for Sherlock Holmes or Agatha Christie, but I think the kind of character I'm aiming for is more Perform (Comedy) for his bumbling attempts to distract both allies and enemies with his "playing dumb" act.

Kavurcen~

I looked into the Vigilante, and he's more of a beat-em-up build, plus very serious, which is not what I'm going for here. Great spells, and cool abilities, but once again, not goofy enough. Thanks though.

Drachasor~

Oh man, I love the Factotum class. Yeah, he's probably better as a straight investigator, but I prefer the Bard for a few reasons- 1) Factotums have lots of combat and utility flavor, but less social flavor than a Bard. 2) They get more skills, but are not a Charisma-based class which benefits from high Charisma, which is key to the "clown detective" build I'm making. 3) Bard spells provide a lot of "modern" versatility, bringing in crimefighter elements like scrying, compulsion effects, and divinations which mimic modern technologies, but in a fantasy setting, and I like that.

Zaq~

I agree that the Investigate feat covers things which you'd think Search would normally include, but I suppose the included mechanical system could help flesh out and add vividness to the description of crime scenes.

Also, those gloves are PIMP. I am all about those gloves. A must-have item for this character.

Quirp~

Didn't look into the Masters of the Wild prestige class, I tend to find that most everything in 3.0 (except for the Exotic Weapon Master) was improved upon in some way for 3.5. The Vigilante from Complete Adventurer sounds very similar. Thanks for the rec though.

Guard Juris~

Am VERY excited about Master Manipulator. That feat is exactly what I'm looking for, thank you for the rec.

[Treblain]

I didn't realize that you needed to get your target alone to use fascinate and suggestion. I'll keep that in mind.

Well, you don't need to get them alone, but it's just impossibly inconvenient otherwise. Say you walk up to four guards you need to bypass and try to fascinate them. Multiple enemies means a chance of one of them making the save, which means he'll notice that his buddies are acting oddly and figure out what's going on. And you can't fascinate him for 24 hours.

And if it works, then what? Drawing a weapon or casting a spell breaks the effect, so it doesn't even get you surprise. You can't sneak by them, because you need to concentrate. You can't have your party members sneak by them instead, because then you've just split the party. You can't use Suggestion, because even if it works on one of them and the others don't notice, the other guards won't see any reason to listen to the suggested one.

[Quirp]

Didn't look into the Masters of the Wild prestige class, I tend to find that most everything in 3.0 (except for the Exotic Weapon Master) was improved upon in some way for 3.5. The Vigilante from Complete Adventurer sounds very similar. Thanks for the rec though.

The two classes are very different.
I have spoilered a short compilation of the abilities of a Harrier below:
-Compile a profile: make a picture of a criminal you have never seen using gather information
-Cooperative interrogation: work together with someone to make a sequenze of bluff and intimidate checks to grant each other bonuses on the checks
-Some bonus to disarm and to some skills (one knowledge, spot sense motive, …)
-Assumption: you can make an assumption about riddles and questions and get a true or false answer from the DM
-No attack malus with subdual damage plus bonus subdual damage
-Sense secret doors as an elf
-Locate object as a SLA
-Can find out the cause of death by searching a corpse and get some basic information about the murderer
-Detect lies as a SLA
-Locate creature as a SLA

[holywhippet]

Might I suggest using a feat to get a familiar - maybe something like a cat. When you get to a high enough level your familiar can talk to others of it's kind so maybe Tibbles the cat across the street saw the murderer. It would be better if your DM let you take a dog as a familiar since they can track via scent.

[Ardantis]

Treblain~

Actually, I'm interested in the potential of Fascinate and, of course, Suggestion as potentially useful class features for the build. Check out the thread on Fascinate, I think you might have posted on it. I think the OP decided that a scouting Bard could Fascinate an opponent after a lull in combat (the opponent Hid in Plain Sight and the Bard was looking for him, and found him when the opponent killed the Bard's bat), and I even suggested that a Bard in a duel could end the combat by withdrawing and beginning to fascinate.

That's another thread, though. HOWEVER-

Who says that the other guard would become alarmed that his compatriots are beginning to be fascinated? It doesn't appear to be a spell, they just seem really "into it." And yes, you can only suggest to one, so the others don't have to listen to him, unless he's really convincing (perhaps a circumstance bonus to convince them of the suggestion).

Plus, with the right feats, can you cast spells while fascinating? Or can't you, because it requires concentration? And can't you make them look like they're not spells?

Anyways, you've got me thinking. Maybe I should start a new thread.

Quirp~

Thanks for posting that synopsis. You're right, the Harrier is MUCH different from the Vigilante. He sounds like part of a "good cop, bad cop" team, like Lethal Weapon or something. I would use that for more of a "tough cop" kind of character (detective abilities for classes without access to magic) but this character is not quite like that.

Holywhippet~

I'm amazed by how much feat flexibility I have for a character not designed for combat. What feat could a bard take to gain a familiar?

[Redshirt Army]

Obtain Familiar, Complete Arcane, page 81.

If you really want to capture the feel of someone who stumbles their way into success, I recommend luck feats, though many of those are combat oriented. (Complete Scoundrel)

Also: I don't know if this fits your character, but the Subsonics feat (Complete Adventurer) makes your bardic music silent, while allowing it to continue working.

One Last Edit: Look into the Deceptive Spell metamagic feat in Cityscape (AKA It's Not Outside), which promises to be both hilarious and helpful!

[CapnVan]

Couple of questions:
Why are you taking Urban Tracking? It's essentially just a Gather Info check anyway — in other words, since you'll probably max the skill, you're wasting the feat for nothing. Just use your skill set to be better than an Urban Tracker ranger.

You seem to be paying a lot of attention to languages: Have you considered a dip in Mindbender? Telepathy is nice. Coupled with Mindsight?

[Ardantis]

Redshirt Army~

Great suggestions!

I personally love the luck feats, but I took a look again, and you're right, they're almost all combat. The only skill luck feats involve physical skills (jump, tumble, sleight of hand), and the one feat that allows luck rerolls for any skill requires another luck feat as a prerequisite. So, they don't work. But great idea!

Deceptive Spell, on the other hand... I would actually prefer this spell over Disguise Spell. It doesn't allow an opposed Spot check, and its level bump is a level lower than the 3.0 version of the feat. Also, it is hilarious! I agree, Deceptive Spell is looking awesome.

Subsonics is a solid choice, although I'm going to be using Perform (comedy) and I don't know if that works. Subsonic comedy? Sounds like mime.

CapnVan-

Urban Tracking is a suboptimal choice, and I knew it. The main difference is that Gather Information cannot normally be used to tail someone in a crowd (according to Urban Tracking, which seems to be trying to justify it's own existence a bit). Sort of like what the Investigate feat does for Search, it provides a mechanic for something that Gather Information should probably be able to do anyways. Luckily, I might be DMing this game, so I could incorporate the mechanics without actually taking the feats.

Mindbender is pretty sharp. What book is that in? Is it psionic? I'm not opposed to a one-level dip, because it won't hurt my spell progression THAT much, and Telepathy makes using Gather Information a snap (and with a little Disguise, won't arouse suspicion). Mindsight is to Gather Information what Scent is to Survival! Two great abilities, I think the second costs a feat. Where is Mindbender?

[TwylyghT]

Deceptive Spell can be quite useful, both for drawing fire away, or for making the impression that you have back up. While the guards chase whoever just cast that spell at them from the dark alley, you sneak by type of stuff.

City Spell has got nice style as an unbelievable luck ability. Casting grease might have a barrel of oil suddenly tip over, an obscuring mist or stinking cloud billow out from a sewer drain, an icy orb during winter might appear as a childs overthrown snowball, a color spray could be a random mishap firing out the window of the magic shop. And a half of the damage done by a city spell becomes "city damage" that ignores resistances. Its also a 0 adjustment so its not hard on your slots, or it abuseable in reduction cheese.

Then theres the amusing Invisible Spell, for making them have no visual effect at all. It is also great for slamming the game to a halt while you figure out the effects of an Invisible Invisibility spell. lol.

all from Cityscape.

[Andorax]

If your DM would agree that both Urban Tracking and Investigator are sub-standard feats, perhaps you could get him to buy into rolling them both into a single feat instead? I can see the benefit of Urban Tracking being rolled into the Investigator feat.


As for the languages thing (and the hilarity that can come from only a PARTIAL understanding of languages that taking, or not taking, languages doesn't allow) look up Wanderer's Diplomacy (PHB II). I have a player who has both Master Manipulator AND Wanderer's Diplomacy, and he certainly can keep things interesting.

Not to mention another use of WD (social agility) is right in line with the character archtype as well...making people like you for about a minute, figure out what really happened, then be furious with you later.

[Quirp]

Mindbender is pretty sharp. What book is that in? Is it psionic? I'm not opposed to a one-level dip, because it won't hurt my spell progression THAT much, and Telepathy makes using Gather Information a snap (and with a little Disguise, won't arouse suspicion). Mindsight is to Gather Information what Scent is to Survival! Two great abilities, I think the second costs a feat. Where is Mindbender?

Mindbender is in Complete Arcane. A one level dip won´t hurt your spell progression at all, since the first level progresses casting.

[Ardantis]

TwylyghT~

I love your interpretation of City Spell, and how you would imagine the spell being manifested. Quite charming, actually. However, it only applies to direct damage spells, and I very much doubt I'll be learning, let alone casting, very many of those.

However, I may well appropriate your rather Terry Gilliam-esque approach to Deceptive Spell, which seems not only more appropriate, but I can use with all of my spells.

And yes, Invisible Spell is super silly.

Andorax~

I agree with your synthesis of Urban Tracking and Investige- it would make for a fantastic "social tactical" feat, along the lines of Wanderer's Diplomacy and Master Manipulator.

Speaking of which, Wanderer's Diplomacy is hilarious! Improving the attitude of a hostile enemy for one minute, then he becomes enraged when he figures it out, is PERFECT! Plus it means I can play ball with anyone, and they will play ball with me (at least for a hot minute)! I'm thinking this might be a must-add... now I'm coming up short on feat slots, which is a good thing (and a good think I'm going human...) This also makes it more likely I'll go with Bardic Knack, to get half-levels in skills I want to use, but aren't super vital.

Quirp~

Thanks for the tip on Mindbender. Full casting on the level dip I need? Sign me up! Super-op for this kind of character. I would kiss you if I could.

[TwylyghT]

Bah, I did remember City Spell wrong :smallmad: sorry. Though access to damaging spells gets an infusion, and quite the adaptable one at that, when you hit the shadow spells.

Though some of the visual imagery would still work just through deceptive spell... I think I'm convincing myself to play a sorcerer with deceptive spell and easy metamagic who himself is not even aware hes actually casting the spells.

Deceptive spell works remarkably well when paired with illusions too.

[Ardantis]

You sir are a genius.

[CapnVan]

Mindbender is pretty sharp. What book is that in? Is it psionic? I'm not opposed to a one-level dip, because it won't hurt my spell progression THAT much, and Telepathy makes using Gather Information a snap (and with a little Disguise, won't arouse suspicion). Mindsight is to Gather Information what Scent is to Survival! Two great abilities, I think the second costs a feat. Where is Mindbender?

Someone else has already mentioned that Mindbender is in Complete Arcane.

Mindsight can be found on p.126 of Lords of Madness. It is a feat but — tracking in a crowd? "A creature that has this feat can detect and pinpoint beings that are not mindless (anything with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher) within range of its telepathy."

[Ardantis]

CapnVan~

I know, I know, Mindsight does it better- but, it is not available until lvl 6, as far as this build is concerned.

The reason I like the Urban Tracking feat (and also the Investigate feat, mentioned earlier) is that even though these feats have no prerequisites AND each imbue a skill with abilities which they should, reasonably, already possess, they each provide a more fleshed-out system with which to use the skill for those purposes. The "tracking" with Gather Information, used just as a Ranger would use Track with Survival, and the escalating DC system for crime scene analysis using Search, make the skills more interesting and fun to use, and are therefore of value.

However, I think I might bundle them as one feat- "Inspector"- and treat them as tactical abilities. Plus, they are both available at lvl 1, making my character into the type I want right from the start. Even though the game is a lvl 6 game, it makes the character make more sense, in my mind. He's always been an investigator.

[faceroll]

Get the investigator feat!


/trollin