Fighter/Samurai/Monk Tristalt Optimization

[Rossebay]

This was something I posted on a thread a few minutes ago, purely as a joke, but the more I thought about it, the more I wondered, "Could someone even do anything with this?"
So, go for it. How would you make this build playable, at all?

And yes, I realize the conflict with Samurai's Swords and Monk's Unarmed Strikes. Make it work. Give them 4 arms if you need to.

[Hirax]

Start throwing in fighter variants and this isn't too bad. But you're basically going to end up making a fighter with 3 good saves and a few niceties like evasion.

[DragonOfUndeath]

I recommend adding in some Z-Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206449) replacing the Monk (it's sorta like a Monk fix but more awesome and based of Anime/Manga)

[Gavinfoxx]

Didn't someone come up with an 'all the tier 5 classes' gestalt at some point??

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Going off what Hirax said, I'd essentially ignore most of the monk features and go for a dungeoncrashing (potentially knock-back'ing) Zhentarim Warrior. How would mass staredown work/stack with ZW's intimidate?

[Jjeinn-tae]

And yes, I realize the conflict with Samurai's Swords and Monk's Unarmed Strikes. Make it work. Give them 4 arms if you need to.

You do not need a free hand to attack with unarmed strike. Unfortunately, despite having the ability to affix weapons to practically everywhere on one's body with enough book diving, two-handed creatures are unable to take multi-weapon fighting... Unless for some strange reason they have four arms but only two hands...

So no attacking with katana+wakizashi+Blade Boot+Other Blade Boot+Unarmed Strike+Tail Barbs+Fukimi Bari+...

But... Unarmed Strike counts as both Natural and Manufactured... Can you use it as a secondary natural attack? That might help this, somewhat.

[Rossebay]

You do not need a free hand to attack with unarmed strike. Unfortunately, despite having the ability to affix weapons to practically everywhere on one's body with enough book diving, two-handed creatures are unable to take multi-weapon fighting... Unless for some strange reason they have four arms but only two hands...

So no attacking with katana+wakizashi+Blade Boot+Other Blade Boot+Unarmed Strike+Tail Barbs+Fukimi Bari+...

But... Unarmed Strike counts as both Natural and Manufactured... Can you use it as a secondary natural attack? That might help this, somewhat.

That's usually what starts the debate...
But you lose natural weapon attacks when you're carrying something in the given hand.

[Curious]

That's usually what starts the debate...
But you lose natural weapon attacks when you're carrying something in the given hand.

But you can attack with your feet.

[Rossebay]

But you can attack with your feet.

That you can...
Does that mean that monks get 4 natural attacks, base?
Headbutt, 5?
I mean, you can keep throwing things at it, but the natural weapons aren't listed in the entry.

[Hirax]

That's not how it works at all. You're still limited by BAB/flurry, you couldn't make the argument that since you have 2 fists, 2 elbows, 2 feet, a forehead, etc. that you should be allowed 7 attacks. In this case you'd still be limited by BAB. You could attack with your feet or swords interchangeably, with as many attacks as you're allowed with your BAB. Off-hand attacks from TWF are where it gets tricky, I'd probably go the same way though, attack interchangeably with a body part or your sword with off-hand attacks as well.

[Olo Demonsbane]

You can combine Zhentarim Fighter with Samurai's intimidate Shenanagins and Imperious Command to swift action Intimidate everyone within 30ft to a cowering state, at will. Now you can effectively solo most anything not immune to fear.

Much as the above poster suggested, I would use your two swords and a kick. I would actually suggest making this into a Robliar's Gambit/Karmic Strike AOO build. Trade your flurry of blows for Decisive Strike, and use your fighter levels to grab Double Hit and Snap Kick. If you have both RG and KS, whenever someone attacks you, you can have 6 attacks back, all at double damage. This actually works quite well with Dungeoncrasher and Knockback. If your foe is right next to the wall, each of your AOOs that knocks him back just 5 feet will cause Dungeoncrasher damage. On the other hand, if he's far from a wall, you can attempt to knock him back on your last of the 6 attacks, ensuring that he can't finish his melee attack sequence.

[Jjeinn-tae]

That's not how it works at all. You're still limited by BAB/flurry, you couldn't make the argument that since you have 2 fists, 2 elbows, 2 feet, a forehead, etc. that you should be allowed 7 attacks. In this case you'd still be limited by BAB. You could attack with your feet or swords interchangeably, with as many attacks as you're allowed with your BAB. Off-hand attacks from TWF are where it gets tricky, I'd probably go the same way though, attack interchangeably with a body part or your sword with off-hand attacks as well.

Yeah, you wouldn't be able to flurry like that, but if you could use it as a secondary natural weapon (like a bite) you could tack it on to a regular full attack with your Katana-Wakizashi combo... First level that's a -1/-1/-4 attack routine... Of course without strength... Not that that really is effective. Though I guess things don't really have that much of an AC at that point.

EDIT: ...Right, Samurai don't start with Two-Weapon Fighting... I guess -8/-8/-4 then... Or just +1/-4 would probably be better. But at second level, 0/0/-3 wouldn't be horrible.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yea, Zhent + Mass Staredown + Imperious Command = Lockdown.

Wasn't there an enhancement which made a weapon considered to be a Monk Weapon for flurry et al? Ki Strikes lets you Stun with them, and use your Ki Strike to bypass certain types of DR, but there was another one, I thought, which basically let you treat them as monk weapons.

Aptitude might work, depending on how you read it. That would also let you go into Lightning Mace shenanigans. Couple with Snap Kick for good results.

[Prime32]

Didn't someone come up with an 'all the tier 5 classes' gestalt at some point??

Behold! (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10511) :smallamused:

[Talya]

Conversely, this actually makes for an almost fixed monk. It's still MAD (perhaps more if you want to make use of samurai intimidation)...but you've got full BAB (flurry of misses blows can now hit), a d10 hit die (two less points of CON needed), and an unbelievable number of feats (Not just the fighter bonus feats --improved everything, superior unarmed strike, snap kick, circle kick, flying kick, every monk feat in OA, hell, even weapon specialization chain for unarmed strikes-- either. You've got the TWF chain for free, which you can arguably use unarmed, or at least with monk special weapons). It's' still not rising above tier 4, (with martial study/stance feats you might get to tier 3) but this is at the very least a passable monk.

[Rossebay]

Conversely, this actually makes for an almost fixed monk. It's still MAD (perhaps more if you want to make use of samurai intimidation)...but you've got full BAB (flurry of misses blows can now hit), a d10 hit die (two less points of CON needed), and an unbelievable number of feats (Not just the fighter bonus feats --improved everything, superior unarmed strike, snap kick, circle kick, flying kick, every monk feat in OA, hell, even weapon specialization chain for unarmed strikes-- either. You've got the TWF chain for free, which you can arguably use unarmed, or at least with monk special weapons). It's' still not rising above tier 4, (with martial study/stance feats you might get to tier 3) but this is at the very least a passable monk.

Hahahaha.

Samurai is easily traded out for something more useful, say... Kung-Fu Genius on Monk, and something Intelligence-Based?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hahahaha.

Samurai is easily traded out for something more useful, say... Kung-Fu Genius on Monk, and something Intelligence-Based?

Actually... Samurai gives something viable to this build... Mass Staredown. Zhent lets you intimidate as a swift action, but mass staredown lets you intimidate everyone in a 30' radius... for that swift action.

[Seerow]

Behold! (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10511) :smallamused:

I want two of them.

[Person_Man]

It's funny/sad how a gestalt Fighter/Samurai/Monk in a non-gestalt game is quite strong for the first 6 levels or so (12ish bonus feats?), but still ends up being Tier 4 in the long run. No matter how many bonus Feats you stack on top of it, you basically end up doing the same exact thing every round. "I make a full attack."

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It's funny/sad how a gestalt Fighter/Samurai/Monk in a non-gestalt game is quite strong for the first 6 levels or so (12ish bonus feats?), but still ends up being Tier 4 in the long run. No matter how many bonus Feats you stack on top of it, you basically end up doing the same exact thing every round. "I make a full attack."

Even up to 10 levels, when you get your full 'lockdown everything within 30' that isn't immune to fear' combo, it's pretty decent.

But it's still not nearly as powerful as anything that has access to spells.

[Person_Man]

Even up to 10 levels, when you get your full 'lockdown everything within 30' that isn't immune to fear' combo, it's pretty decent.

But it's still not nearly as powerful as anything that has access to spells.

True that.

Maybe a Knight X/Healer X gestalt or something similar in a non-gestalt game would be low Tier 3? Full BAB, armor, weapons, mounted combat bonus feats, Test of Mettle, Vigilant Defender, lots of healing and negative condition removing spells, and at level 8 when the Knight hits a long dead level zone your get your fairly potent Celestial Companion with Share Spells, Shared Saves, and Improved Evasion. You also get 2 fairly strong capstones. I think it would be on par with a Crusader.

[noparlpf]

Well, I played a playable human fighter once a few months ago, albeit in a group ranging from low to moderate optimization. Funnily enough, he was a "samurai". I took one look at the CW samurai and decided to just use a fighter. Later I converted him to the UA warrior, though, because getting to choose class skills and pick any feats made the build work a little better.

As for the challenge, I have class from 10:30 to 1:00, and then I have to go shopping. I don't have time today to figure out how to get unarmed strike to mesh with swords, let alone how to get flurry with swords.

[Metahuman1]

What's interesting too me is that when your really trained for armed melee, one of the first things you learn is not to rely on just attacking with your weapon. Punch him with the hand holding the sword, elbow and knee him if he get's too close, kick his knee cap out if he gives you the opening, grapple him and beat him senseless when you can, what ever, just don't spam sword strokes and hope to hit him, it get's too predictable!

So yeah, I'd argue that this Tristalt should be able too to flurry of blows/decisive strike with legs, elbows, even the fist that his holding the sword, up too your flurry + any normally allowed attacks form BAB progression + Snap kick if you've got it.

Moving on, You want too get your unarmed damage as high as possible, so yeah, you need access to Greater Mighty Wallop, maybe a trap or potions or just get the party caster to put it on you. Dipping Tattooed Monk for the fast healing and avoid needing to eat/drink/sleep Tattoos might not be a bad idea. Force of personality and Ascetic mage with a 1 lvl dip into Sorcerer would be a way to get MAD reduced a bit if Dips are allowed for this though excersize.

And as I am prone to doing, I turn to the affiliation rules in PHBII too help optimize. Make an affiliation, be a member. Have membership give some Turn undead attempts you can burn on Devotion feats. I like Travel, and if no Tattoed Monk, healing. Str is good till lvl 16, then retrain it. And have the Capstone of the affiliation be "You by-pass the immunity to fear of all opponents, your that freaking scary!"

And now your fighter variant+Samurai intimidate game is good to go, period, long as you can make the jacked check. And last but not least, Beef up Iaijutsu focus for extra damage on round one, and flavor purposes.

[Hazzardevil]

It's Ki Focus that let's you flurry with swords, although really, it would be best to simply dual weild scorpion kama's, they are +1 weapons that deal your unarmed strike damage, I would also houserule with this Tristalt that monk's class features are based off cha.