[PF] Planning a fighter build, what do I need to look out for to stay relevant?

[WarKitty]

Edit: Relevant for a fighter build doesn't consist in "how to do even more damage." I'm not looking to build an ubercharger, and I know how to use the power attack chain. What I'm looking for is "how to not be a one-trick pony" for what doesn't appear to be a super optimized game.

So I'm playing a 1-20 fighter build. This is my first time building a melee character that isn't either some sort of gish or a druid. Pathfinder only, although the DM seems pretty flexible (love ya slay :smallwink: ).

Current sheet: http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=22867

Planning on taking improved trip at level 2, not really sure past that.

Hidden stuff on the sheet cuz I didn't want my fellow players knowing:
Race is tiefling with the infernal bastard trait.

Backstory:
A tall, hulking man stands before you, his skin so pale as to be almost translucent. His blue-grey eyes and pale hair do nothing to relieve the almost ice-cold appearance. Indeed, the observant may notice that his breath comes out iced, even though the air is warm. Of course, this assumes you can get him into normal clothes. Even in summer, he dresses in his arming cap, gambeson and trousers, all dyed a mid grey. The arming cap has a bit of deep blue silk attached to the front, covering the lower portion of the man's face, and he wears matching silk gloves, along with boots and a leather vest of a similar shade. A pendant containing an onyx stone hangs around his neck, and he wears a thin silver ring on one hand.

In reality he is the son of the sorceress Kaija and an ice devil she conjured for her service. Though no stranger to the practice of evil magic, her abilities had so far refused to allow her to conceive a child. Approaching the end of her fertility, she conjured the devil and offered to bargain for the ability to conceive. The devil surprised her by offering to sire the child himself in exchange for a rather minor relic. She agreed, and the child was born 9 months later. Unfortunately for her, the half-devil's birth proved fatal to the mother, as her injuries from the large infant refused to heal. Though somewhat shocked at the child's appearance, her husband acknowledged and raised the boy as his son, naming him Aatos. He intended him to take over the family business after his own death. Nonetheless, Aatos rebelled against his father's wishes, obtaining more practical weapons and armor training with the money set aside for the more gentlemanly pursuit of fencing. On his 16th birthday, he gathered up his money, purchase

So far I'm the only brute in a mostly-caster party, so I'm expecting to have to do a bit of work to keep up. Not making any commitments regarding alignment changes, although it's likely that it will change over the course of the game. Could mostly use advice for planning up to level 10 or so, as far as staying relevant and not turning into a one-trick pony. I'm not locked into the fighter class but I don't want to start picking up caster levels.

Edit: The other thing I'd like to do is maintain at least some utility when combat is not on the table. So far I've been relying mostly on skill points and high int to do so. I'm not adverse to burning feats or even a char level or two on this.

[Tetrasodium]

-First ignore improved trip (trip is slightly different in PF)
-Second: open a copy of the APG and look at the new combat maneuvers it brings to the table.. specifically Dirty Trick on page 321, it opens up your options messing up a target to include"blinded, dazzled, deafened, entangled, shaken, and sickened" Lots of new stuff (i.e. feats & such) in APG & UC though
-This (https://docs1.google.com/document/edit?id=15x4he4WAFYNsoeYgNG8KaEjPH2OvzF2dUjiy8BL1h 14&hl=en#) is a pathfinder fighter guide written before APG & UC were put out

[WarKitty]

-First ignore improved trip (trip is slightly different in PF)

Aside from having CMB/CMD now, what's the difference exactly?


-Second: open a copy of the APG and look at the new combat maneuvers it brings to the table.. specifically Dirty Trick on page 321, it opens up your options messing up a target to include"blinded, dazzled, deafened, entangled, shaken, and sickened" Lots of new stuff (i.e. feats & such) in APG & UC though

Used it on a different character. It's ok, but I'm not sure how great it is. Can always take both, of course.


-This (https://docs1.google.com/document/edit?id=15x4he4WAFYNsoeYgNG8KaEjPH2OvzF2dUjiy8BL1h 14&hl=en#) is a pathfinder fighter guide written before APG & UC were put out

Thanks!

[The Glyphstone]

Dirty Trick is really kinda bad without spending two feats on it to get Greater Dirty Trick. Otherwise, you're trading your standard action (so no damage at all that turn) for an opponent's move action (which they spend to remove the penalty, then whallop you with their standard).


EDIT: main difference on trips is that Improved Trip is now split into two separate feats (Improved and Greater Trip), combining them gives you the benefits that the old Improved Trip gave for one.

[WarKitty]

Would a barbarian 1-2 level dip be worthwhile? I'd get rage (always handy), rage power (not that handy but cool), and uncanny dodge.

Also, how much mileage can I get out of knowledges and linguistics?

[Albonor]

Just to point out a small detail.

Crit feats: on a crit, no matter the multiplier last time I checked. Which means that at level 20 you could get 15-20/x3 crits with a falchion, with powerful extra effects. Not optimal but with the right choice of feats it can go a long way. Dips may not be that optimal...

[WarKitty]

Just to point out a small detail.

Crit feats: on a crit, no matter the multiplier last time I checked. Which means that at level 20 you could get 15-20/x3 crits with a falchion, with powerful extra effects. Not optimal but with the right choice of feats it can go a long way. Dips may not be that optimal...

I'm trying to stick with the reach weapon + armor spikes deal so I can maximize reach. Crit feats take forever to take effect.

[Larpus]

1-2 Barbarian can be useful especially if you take the drunken brute archetype, so you can maintain rage going for longer as long as you have booze in hand.

I'm not sure how different are Fighters, but last time I looked at them, still didn't see worthy of 20 full levels, so dipping/PrCing might be good.

[Curious]

Grab Dawnflower Dervish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/dawnflower-dervish) or Mobile Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/mobile-fighter). Very good archetypes.

Also, Called Shots (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/variant-rules) allow options for debuffing which can be quite nice.

[WarKitty]

1-2 Barbarian can be useful especially if you take the drunken brute archetype, so you can maintain rage going for longer as long as you have booze in hand.

I'm not sure how different are Fighters, but last time I looked at them, still didn't see worthy of 20 full levels, so dipping/PrCing might be good.

I'm interested in useful PrC's but I didn't see much that looked like it added anything, any ideas?


Grab Dawnflower Dervish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/dawnflower-dervish) or Mobile Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/mobile-fighter). Very good archetypes.

Also, Called Shots (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/variant-rules) allow options for debuffing which can be quite nice.

I'll look at the called shots. Not sure I have the dex to take advantage of the first two.

[Curious]

I'm interested in useful PrC's but I didn't see much that looked like it added anything, any ideas?



I'll look at the called shots. Not sure I have the dex to take advantage of the first two.

You don't need Dex for either one. They simply replace a few things, like Armor training, for the ability to move and full attack.

[WarKitty]

You don't need Dex for either one. They simply replace a few things, like Armor training, for the ability to move and full attack.

Looked over the archetypes. It looks like what I want is the tactician variant - probably the best for my goal of "staying relevant." Delays taking new feats, but oh well.

[Retech]

This might interest you: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-prestige-classes/pyrokineticist

[Paul H]

Hi

As a different melee option, this might also interest you:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist

Synthesists are to Fighters what powerful brawlers are to boxers. Brute strength & energy vs skills.

At 1st lvl your stats could be:
Str 13 Dex 13 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 11 Cha 18

But with your Eidolon up:

Lvl 1) Str 16 Dex 14 Con 13 Int 10 Wis 11 Cha 18 [Darkvision, BAB+1, +4 Nat Armour]
Lvl 2) Str 17 Dex 15 Con 15 Int 10 Wis 11 Cha 18 [Evasion, BAB+2, +4 Nat AC]

By lvl 5
Lvl 5) Str 18 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 18 [Extra pair Arms, Wings, +6 Nat AC]

Whilst you can't gain bonuses from armour whilst Eidolon is up, you do get spells like Mage Armour & Shield to protect you. Haste is a 2nd Lvl spell too! :smallbiggrin:

You get 15HD of Eidolon in 20 lvl build. Extra HP, extra AC, Breath Wpns, Extra Arms to wield those 2H Wpns with Pwr Attack, etc.

Sure many of us can make up different Pwr Attack builds for you if needed.
Though none will be the fighter you originally thought of.

Thanks
Paul H
PS You also add the Eidolon's HP to your own!
PPS my PFS 2nd lvl Synthesist has 35 HP. (20 hers, 15 'Temp')

[Retech]

Why not just dump all your physical stats down as low as they can go, since the Eidolon replaces them?

Also it's debateable whether you can wear armor or not while you're fused with your Eidolon. Just because it cannot wear armor doesn't mean that you can't wear the armor. (They might have come with an errata or FAQ for this by now)

[Paul H]

Hi

Because you still have to make prereq's for feats etc.

So yes, minimum required for feats you want to take.

Str 13 for Pwr Attack
Dex 13 for Dodge

Note: You and Synthesist have to make prereq's, and Sythesist's only have Cleric BAB. (So Pwr Attack at 3rd Lvl)

Thanks
Paul H
Edit: You can wear the armour, but consensus is that you can't gain bonuses with you Eidolon up. However, if it's taken down somehow, you then get your armour to AC, and can use your 'secondary' summoning powers to confuse the enemy.

Note: You can transfer HP to your Eidolon when it gets to 0HP, and you can still 'Rejuvenate' the Eidolon's HP, even though they're only 'Temps'.

[Tetrasodium]

I'm trying to stick with the reach weapon + armor spikes deal so I can maximize reach. Crit feats take forever to take effect.

With the lunge fat (+5 ft reach), any melee weapon can become a reach weapon at will without the close range drawbacks of reach weapons (unless it's already one). I it's already a reach weapon, it's even more reach :)

[Paul H]

Hi

Lunge is something my PFS Human Synthesist will be looking at later.

1) Dodge, Toughness
3) Arcane Strike (Missed atrick on original stats)
5) Pwr Attack
6) Prob looking into Ninja for 2 levels for wpn access (Katana) plus ki points.

Four armed melee wielding 2 Katanas 2Handed, Pwr Attacking w/Arcane Strike? (D8 +11)

Or Paladin 2 for No-Dachi's and those beautiful saves.... :smallbiggrin:

Thanks
Paul H

[WarKitty]

With the lunge fat (+5 ft reach), any melee weapon can become a reach weapon at will without the close range drawbacks of reach weapons (unless it's already one). I it's already a reach weapon, it's even more reach :)

What drawbacks? That's what the armor spikes are for.



Sure many of us can make up different Pwr Attack builds for you if needed.
Though none will be the fighter you originally thought of.

Sorry if this wasn't clear, but "staying relevant" doesn't really consist in "dealing out a lot of damage." I'm a fighter, dealing damage is easy. What I'm more interested in is building a non-caster melee brute where I have options other than "run up and hit it." I.e. not being totally useless when my enemies are flying or across difficult terrain, or in a social situation. So far that's what my int abilities and the extra skill point archetype is for.

[Paul H]

Hi

Oops sorry - Synthesists are melee brute casters that also do other stuff than smackdowns.

They can fly, cast Haste (2nd lv spell), Imp Invisibility (3rd lvl spell) & other buffs, Grease & other debuffs, have excellent social skills (charisma based), can be skill monkeys (skilled evolution grants +8 racial bonus to a skill).

Mine's a Taldor Ballet Dancer. Good with social skills, better in combat.

But, as you say, she's not a fighter, but is a spellcaster. :smallfrown:

Thanks
Paul H
Edit; The Summoner's Eidolon Evolutions & Spell Lists are 5 pages long!

[Human Paragon 3]

First, you're right not to neglect Int. Fighter gets a pretty good skill list in pathfinder. Knowledge skills and linguistics would indeed keep you relevant in non-combat situations. I have a ranger right now with Int has his highest stat, and he is always useful in every situation.

Also look for feats that give you a strong situational tactical advantage, and then try to force those situations in combat. I took Nimble Moves, which allows me to five foot step in rough terrain where my opponents cannot, since almost nobody takes the feat. Now my first action in combat is always to get into rough terrain, or create some if I can't find any.

Knowledge Engineering / Architecture is probably the best know: skill on the fighter list. It can be used to size up enemy fortifications, find secret entrances, design and build devices and fortify your own position. Survival and handle animal are both also handy.

[Curious]

Lunge doesn't actually make a weapon into a reach weapon; it flatly increases your reach by 5ft, so it's a pretty god feat for a tripper build.

[deuxhero]

*Insert link to Warblade excerpt here*


There's your fighter fix!

[WarKitty]

*Insert link to Warblade excerpt here*


There's your fighter fix!

Wrong game.

[deuxhero]

[insert link to PF update for ToB here]

:p

[WarKitty]

[insert link to PF update for ToB here]

:p

Though looking over the class, it doesn't seem to offer much more in terms of usefulness. "I'm even better at the same thing" is not what I'm looking for.

[deuxhero]

Did you miss the maneuvers that mean you aren't, at best, repeating one trick over and over?

[Tetrasodium]

Lunge doesn't actually make a weapon into a reach weapon; it flatly increases your reach by 5ft, so it's a pretty god feat for a tripper build.

Yea I was being lazy in my description

[WarKitty]

Did you miss the maneuvers that mean you aren't, at best, repeating one trick over and over?

Most of them still looked like variations on "I run up to it and hit it with a big stick." The issue isn't having problems hitting things and doing damage. The issue is having something to do when that isn't available.

[Curious]

Most of them still looked like variations on "I run up to it and hit it with a big stick." The issue isn't having problems hitting things and doing damage. The issue is having something to do when that isn't available.


You clearly did not read the maneuvers in-depth, but that's to be expected when your still holding a conversation. Warblade's get 4 + Int skills, maneuvers that allow them to ignore hardness/DR, stances and boosts that improve their jumping and maneuverability, and lots more. They have more to do outside combat than any other official melee class that has ever been created, while also retaining more in-combat versatility than any other as well.

[WarKitty]

You clearly did not read the maneuvers in-depth, but that's to be expected when your still holding a conversation. Warblade's get 4 + Int skills, maneuvers that allow them to ignore hardness/DR, stances and boosts that improve their jumping and maneuverability, and lots more. They have more to do outside combat than any other official melee class that has ever been created, while also retaining more in-combat versatility than any other as well.

Well, either way, ToB classes aren't on the table right now. I already have 4+Int skills available, actually, via the tactician variant.

Which is actually a pretty good name for what I want to do. I want to create a tactician type build, where he's good at fighting but he's also good at knowing what the enemies weaknesses are and how to exploit them.

[Coidzor]

I trust this has been said before... but why? You know about Fighter's limitations and you're refusing to do anything but take more levels in it.

[ericgrau]

EDIT: main difference on trips is that Improved Trip is now split into two separate feats (Improved and Greater Trip), combining them gives you the benefits that the old Improved Trip gave for one.
Which is why as a fighter it's no big deal to get greater trip. You have plenty of feats. Pathfinder also adds little bonuses on the greater feats. For trip your allies get a free attack too. Frankly if they made it a +4 for the first feat and nothing but the little bonus for the 2nd feat (instead of +2 then +2 & bonus effect) I'd still often take the 2nd feat purely for the bonus effect. I don't see what the griping is about. If anything I might be hesitant to get only the first feat until I was ready to get the 2nd feat immediately afterwards.

The nerf to size modifiers cancels out the dex bonus to CMD, so that's a non-issue. The main difference is large size isn't an absolute necessity to stay relevant at high levels anymore. What really got shafted was grappling, as the mechanics completely changed there. Tripping, disarming and most maneuvers are a sweeter deal than ever as long as you can squeeze the feat in, and a fighter 20 can. Not to mention the extra feats PF gives to everyone. You're getting 21 feats.

[WarKitty]

I trust this has been said before... but why? You know about Fighter's limitations and you're refusing to do anything but take more levels in it.

Where did I say that? I've said I'm interested in dips or PrC's. I've turned down casting classes because I want to play a fighter, not a magician. The only other class suggestions have been stuff that's not allowed in the game.

[Paul H]

Hi

What about Inquisitors or Rangers? You seemed to suggest that magic is not a primary concern. (That's why I ignored Magus).

Inquisitor has Cleric BAB & saves, but 6 skill points/level, D8 HP/lvl, plenty of skills & abilities.

Ranger might be slightly better, depending on campaign & playstyle.

Thanks
Paul H

[Maho-Tsukai]

Inquisitor and Ranger also have spellcasting, and since he said he dose not want any casting, both are out. I don't know the PF classes as well as the 3.5e ones, so I sadly can't recommend a PrC though I am sure there may be something out there....espcially with 3rd party being an option.(The SRD dose have 3rd party content, after all.)

[Paul H]

Hi

Thanks Maho.

Skirmisher (Ranger Archetype, APG Pg 128) has no spells.

There may be others.

Thanks
Paul H

[Human Paragon 3]

Well, you could always take ranger and then stop at level 3, or dump WIS so you don't have any spellcasting. Ranger offers a great skill base, and if you look through the archetypes, I have no doubt you will find a few other neat tricks.

[deuxhero]

Sadly, the only way to make a core melee build with class, Horizon Tripper, was removed in PF multiple ways (Spiked chain doesn't work, Horizon Walker can't teleport).

[Coidzor]

Where did I say that? I've said I'm interested in dips or PrC's. I've turned down casting classes because I want to play a fighter, not a magician. The only other class suggestions have been stuff that's not allowed in the game.

Ah, missed that. Fighter 1-20 heavily implied that you wanted to be pure fighter for some reason that I could not discern and resulted in psyduck levels of confusion.


Which is actually a pretty good name for what I want to do. I want to create a tactician type build, where he's good at fighting but he's also good at knowing what the enemies weaknesses are and how to exploit them.

Hmm. Too bad you have no Knowledge Devotion then. And White Raven Tactics and its successor in 4e, the Warlord, are pretty much made for that...

Bard is slightly less and slightly more suited to the task in Pathfinder from the change they got....

But unless you've got an archetype that directly facilitates that, probably SoL in pathfinder. At least, I haven't seen any feats that would actually aid this concept when I've gone trawling through pathfinder material.

[Paul H]

Hi

@deuxhero: Nope - they offer even more. Magus, Symthesist are just two examples.

But OP has suggested no spell casting.

And both 'classses' mentioned are PrC's, think one isn't even core.
Magus is base class, Synthesist is an archetype (Summoner). Both have 20 levels.

Before dis'ing PF, look at Dragon Disciple & Arcane Archer. Both far superior than 3.5 versions.

Back to OP,,,

Thanks
Paul H

[WarKitty]

Found something, actually - Student of War. Missed it befoer.

[navar100]

Do keep in mind you can crit more creatures in Pathfinder than what is used to. For example, undead, elementals, and constructs can be critted.

[deuxhero]

Hi

@deuxhero: Nope - they offer even more. Magus, Symthesist are just two examples.

But OP has suggested no spell casting.



I meant that Horizon Tripped, generally the only non-gish Melee build in core 3.5 that was viable, is no longer so in PF. There may be other options for Melee folk, but THAT one doesn't work.

[Gametime]

Horizon Walkers can still use Dimension Door, it's just limited to 3 + Wisdom modifier uses per day now. On the bright side, you can take that ability at 3rd level in the class and getting the prerequisite ranks in Know: Geography is easier in Pathfinder. It's still a nerf, but if you can get a decent Wisdom you'll probably still have enough uses per day.

As for the spiked chain, it wasn't really crucial. Any reach weapon will accomplish the fundamentals.

[WarKitty]

Do keep in mind you can crit more creatures in Pathfinder than what is used to. For example, undead, elementals, and constructs can be critted.

Yeah, crit feats aren't really what I'm looking for. I don't need more damage, I need flexibility. And the things are just too hit or miss.

Related question - what items do I want to look out for? What are the must-haves? What help me when my basic trick isn't working?

[Mad Gene Vane]

If you are playing with traits, try to pick up traits that allow you to gain more knowledge skills as class skills and load up on those.

You can be the designated "knower" in the party, for trying to ID things.

Forget the campaign, but I had a monk with ranks in knowledge nature (though not a class skill) and I got to know about some plants that we avoided for the benefit of all. I became the knowledge nature checker for that sort of thing and increased my usefulness.

A well read, knowledgeable, brawler who has some serious info on certain knowledge based checks could add some flavor to your character, if that's what you are looking for.

[Paul H]

Hi

Similar thing here.

As I said before - My Synthesist is a gish type (spellcaster). The other abilities like +8 Racial bonus to skills, the stat increases plus the physical bonuses (Darkvision, Evasion etc) help with Social stuff.

Spells include party buffs like Haste, Invisibility, etc.

Diplomacy isn't a class skill, but since Sian's a Charisma based character, and I'll be taking the +8 Racial bonus to Diplomacy later (1 Evolution point), I'll also be the party Face.

But what does the OP want exactly?

Combat sure, but what else? Different classes give different bonuses. And are spellcasters completely ruled out, or are semi-casters (Ranger, Paladin etc) acceptable?

Would they consider a spellcaster if the right mix spells/abilities/combat could be found?

A combat orientated Bard might be best option.

Thanks
Paul H

[WarKitty]

At this point, both stats and initial level are fixed. I want to do two things:

First, my main in-combat trick is two-handed reach weapon plus armor spikes. Some variation allowed, but I want to stick with a two-hander heavy man type. No dex builds. Definitely no "I have to cast spells to function" stuff. I've played two melee bards recently and I have a melee druid in a different game. I'm bored with spells.

Second, I want to be the guy who knows all about the situation. The terrain, the strengths and weaknesses of the monster, who their enemies are, etc.

Third, did anyone actually look at the prc I mentioned? I can't link from here.

[Coidzor]

Found something, actually - Student of War. Missed it befoer.

Well, you have to use a move action and succeed on a knowledge check to get your choice of buffing your offense, buffing your defense, or buffing your combat maneuvers against a single foe. So it's a weaker, single-target, action-draining knowledge devotion that covers more areas.

a handful of bonus feats *yawn*

Int to AC, but with all of the restrictions of Dex to AC based upon your armor, and only when wearing armor or using a shield.

Can occasionally just entirely ignore the effects of spells that they save against.

Ignore part of DR, unless it's DR/-, stacks with Penetrating Strike, though.

And the capstone is the ability to, if they succeed on their move-action knowledge check against a single foe by a certain amount to then ignore its natural DR & crit/precision damage-immunity.

And the only onerous PrC requirements are the Pre-req feats, several of them are kinda bad, though a couple are probably ones you'd take for the concept anyway, and the special requirement to successfully ID 5 distinct creatures before killing them.

So you may have to get a sack full of bunnies to see which ones you can successfully ID as bunnies before killing them in order to qualify.

Decentish class skill list, with a healthy chunk of skill points. Saves are a bit lackluster though.

[Frosty]

Have you considered a Cavalier. I think a Cavalier musually uses a two-handed weapon + armor spikes or spiked gauntlets. you get no spells, but you get some nifty abilities that are NOT spellcasting.

You can always do decent damage by charging, and you get to choose your secondary abilities by choosing your Order. I like Order of the Dragon as it makes you team leader and somewhat Warlord/Crusader-y.

[deuxhero]

Horizon Walkers can still use Dimension Door, it's just limited to 3 + Wisdom modifier uses per day now. On the bright side, you can take that ability at 3rd level in the class and getting the prerequisite ranks in Know: Geography is easier in Pathfinder. It's still a nerf, but if you can get a decent Wisdom you'll probably still have enough uses per day.


But infinite use teleportation is fun (Fun?)!

[Paul H]

Hi

Agree with Frosty on the Cavalier, but there is a Fighter Archetype called Tactician. APG Pg 47 (on pdf).

4 +Int skill points/lvl, plus some nice abilities & skills.

Thanks
Paul H

[kestrel404]

OK, let me do a bit of op-fu on your proposed build.

You're starting out as a Tactician Fighter and angling for Student of War. That's all well and good, nothing wrong with that and lots of character options. I'll strongly recommend entering Student of War at your first possible opportunity - the faster you can get Mind over Metal and Know Your Enemy as a swift action, the more workable the character is. You can get into the PrC at level 6, so do it.

However, your race is Tiefling? I'm going to have to say that it's not a good choice - Human or half-elf would be better, or any race that gives bonuses to Strength, Con or Int (and penalties to any other stat) - however if you're set on Tiefling then I'll not argue the point (it's merely a mediocre choice).

One thing I am going to argue with is your choice of at-will cantrip from your trait. Ray of Frost is a terrible at-will ability - you've got a full BAB and a high strength bonus; you're better off carrying around some rocks to throw at things - if you MUST deal energy damage, spend a bit on alchemical splash weapons. By 3rd or 4th level they're pretty cheap and you honestly won't need them that often.

Instead, I'm going to strongly recommend Message - it's basically a two way short-range radio spell, and since you're playing a tactician that's an ideal tool for you. It's a force multiplier. Use it to coordinate action against the enemy.

I've got one suggested magic item & feat combo for later levels - you've dumped Cha (and given the attributes you had available, I can see why), but since you have to take Skill Focus in a knowledge skill anyway (to get into Student of War), make it Knowledge Nature. Then, when you've got the cash for a stat-boosting item, get an item of +6 to Int & Cha (This is after you get a +6 strength item, of course). It's expensive, but once you've worn the thing for 24 hours, you can select feats that have Charisma minimums based on your modified charisma (alternately, you can get a +4 item for a lot less and spend an attribute bump to raise your Cha by 1 - since you've got an odd strength score that may be worthwhile). This gets you to Cha 13, which lets you take the Eldritch Heritage feat - so you can take Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan) and pick up an Animal Companion as a Druid of character level -5. Take the Boon Companion feat and that becomes character level -1. Animal Companions are dead useful - you can flank with them, they count as an ally for all of your 'buff your allies' abilities, and you can use them as mounts if you take the right sort. The first stat raise you want on an animal companion is Intelligence (to bring it up to intelligence 3) - which allows them to take any feat, use equipment, understand language (they won't be able to speak, but 'training' them is no longer an issue because they'll understand what you're asking them to do). I'm quite partial to the Ape animal companion, because once you get him to int 3, he's effectively a Cohort (with animal hit dice) for all intents and purposes.

Hope that helps.

[Cieyrin]

You clearly did not read the maneuvers in-depth, but that's to be expected when your still holding a conversation. Warblade's get 4 + Int skills, maneuvers that allow them to ignore hardness/DR, stances and boosts that improve their jumping and maneuverability, and lots more. They have more to do outside combat than any other official melee class that has ever been created, while also retaining more in-combat versatility than any other as well.

Have you never heard of the Barbarian before? :smallconfused: d12 HD, 4+Int skills with useful skill set, crushing smaller men in melee through sheer bonuses, often enough to rival a Warblade. ToB isn't the only source of competant meleers, it just added to it.

Not to mention that PF added Rage Powers to give Barbarians options, as well as Archetypes letting you pursue different paths of savagery and not-so-savagery.

[WarKitty]

Have you considered a Cavalier. I think a Cavalier musually uses a two-handed weapon + armor spikes or spiked gauntlets. you get no spells, but you get some nifty abilities that are NOT spellcasting.

You can always do decent damage by charging, and you get to choose your secondary abilities by choosing your Order. I like Order of the Dragon as it makes you team leader and somewhat Warlord/Crusader-y.

Not sure I want to deal with a mount, though there's either beast rider or standard bearer to handle that. Then again, mounted combat isn't bad.


Hi

Agree with Frosty on the Cavalier, but there is a Fighter Archetype called Tactician. APG Pg 47 (on pdf).

4 +Int skill points/lvl, plus some nice abilities & skills.

Thanks
Paul H

Got it already!


OK, let me do a bit of op-fu on your proposed build.

You're starting out as a Tactician Fighter and angling for Student of War. That's all well and good, nothing wrong with that and lots of character options. I'll strongly recommend entering Student of War at your first possible opportunity - the faster you can get Mind over Metal and Know Your Enemy as a swift action, the more workable the character is. You can get into the PrC at level 6, so do it.

Planning on that one, should mention I got my DM to let me sub a second skill focus for dodge (since I don't have enough dex).


However, your race is Tiefling? I'm going to have to say that it's not a good choice - Human or half-elf would be better, or any race that gives bonuses to Strength, Con or Int (and penalties to any other stat) - however if you're set on Tiefling then I'll not argue the point (it's merely a mediocre choice).

Tiefling gives bonuses to Int and Dex, and a penalty to charisma.


One thing I am going to argue with is your choice of at-will cantrip from your trait. Ray of Frost is a terrible at-will ability - you've got a full BAB and a high strength bonus; you're better off carrying around some rocks to throw at things - if you MUST deal energy damage, spend a bit on alchemical splash weapons. By 3rd or 4th level they're pretty cheap and you honestly won't need them that often.

Instead, I'm going to strongly recommend Message - it's basically a two way short-range radio spell, and since you're playing a tactician that's an ideal tool for you. It's a force multiplier. Use it to coordinate action against the enemy.

It's not the energy damage so much as the ability flavor - I can't see getting something as random as message from an ice devil, no matter how useful it would be. And you will note I'm carrying spears.


I've got one suggested magic item & feat combo for later levels - you've dumped Cha (and given the attributes you had available, I can see why), but since you have to take Skill Focus in a knowledge skill anyway (to get into Student of War), make it Knowledge Nature. Then, when you've got the cash for a stat-boosting item, get an item of +6 to Int & Cha (This is after you get a +6 strength item, of course). It's expensive, but once you've worn the thing for 24 hours, you can select feats that have Charisma minimums based on your modified charisma (alternately, you can get a +4 item for a lot less and spend an attribute bump to raise your Cha by 1 - since you've got an odd strength score that may be worthwhile). This gets you to Cha 13, which lets you take the Eldritch Heritage feat - so you can take Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan) and pick up an Animal Companion as a Druid of character level -5. Take the Boon Companion feat and that becomes character level -1. Animal Companions are dead useful - you can flank with them, they count as an ally for all of your 'buff your allies' abilities, and you can use them as mounts if you take the right sort. The first stat raise you want on an animal companion is Intelligence (to bring it up to intelligence 3) - which allows them to take any feat, use equipment, understand language (they won't be able to speak, but 'training' them is no longer an issue because they'll understand what you're asking them to do). I'm quite partial to the Ape animal companion, because once you get him to int 3, he's effectively a Cohort (with animal hit dice) for all intents and purposes.

Hope that helps.

Maybe. There wouldn't happen to be an equivalent of boon companion for mounts? If I'm going to have a critter following me around, I'd rather take the cavalier's mount than an animal companion, though that would be tied to the cavalier level instead.

[kestrel404]

It's not the energy damage so much as the ability flavor - I can't see getting something as random as message from an ice devil, no matter how useful it would be. And you will note I'm carrying spears.

If it's a flavor issue, then I'll give you a few other cantrips that fit the 'flavor' of an ice-devil's spawn:
Drench (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/rare-cantrips#TOC-Drench) - You can lower the temperature of a patch of air to squeeze the moisture from it. This one has a lot of versatility, from putting out fires to cooling someone off in hot climates to watering plants or even as a very minor 'create water' cantrip - it might only yield a liter or two of water per casting, but you can use it at will.
Dancing Lights (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dancing-lights) - Ice devils (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/ice) get Persistent Image at will. Instead of inheriting their cold abilities, you get some of their capacity for illusion. As OotS demonstrates, Dancing Lights is a very nice communication tool all by itself.
Root (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/rare-cantrips#TOC-Root) - You get the ability to freeze someone in place. A good ability to have as a fighter.


Maybe. There wouldn't happen to be an equivalent of boon companion for mounts? If I'm going to have a critter following me around, I'd rather take the cavalier's mount than an animal companion, though that would be tied to the cavalier level instead.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any way to use feats to get a special mount of any kind. You can either get a Animal Companion at character level -5 or a Familiar at character level -2. And you get that through the Eldritch Heritage feat. Boon Companion only increases your effective Druid Level for the animal companion.

However, you can USE the animal companion AS a mount. If you do so you really don't even need the boon companion feat - as a mount the animal will get targetted less often. You can choose to have a horse animal companion, or at higher levels take an Elephant.

Also, before you start to claim that Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan) is not right for you for flavor reasons, remember that you've got 2 parents - you might have a strong link to they fey on your mother's side. That might even be why the Ice Devil was attracted to her in the first place.

[Cieyrin]

However, you can USE the animal companion AS a mount. If you do so you really don't even need the boon companion feat - as a mount the animal will get targetted less often. You can choose to have a horse animal companion, or at higher levels take an Elephant.

I would say a mount has more chance to get targeted, just from area spells hitting you. Plus, if the mount is mainly for mobility, enemies will go out of their way to shoot it from under you and do so if your mount is fragile compared to you.

[Larpus]

@WarKitty
By the way, if you're still considering going Barbarian, also consider 3 levels of Horizon Walker who, impending DM approval, can completely ignore fatigue, add that to Drunken Brute and lots of booze and hooray! Infinite "tireless" rage!

And there are also other PrCs that a Fighter can qualify rather easily that are also interesting (though yeah, for your overall flavor Student of War sounds like the best option), here are some initial considerations after glazing over them (I didn't read in detail, so some of these can be worse options than straight Fighter):

Chevalier: Might hurt a bit your mundane-only theme depending on how you view it, but allows you to access smite evil 1/day and couple other paladinic bonuses out of sheer "a hero is you", nothing major, but it's a 3 levels-only class.

Hellknight: Surprisingly he's not necessarily evil...? Anyway, specialist in punching Chaotic things in the face and some other apparently nice abilities, might hurt the mundane theme tho (more than the Chev).

Living Monolith: Sounds nice for a tanker type? Without any math sounds better than straight Fighter, but I could be wrong.

Low Templar: Ok I guess...? Sounds easy to enter and gives you stuff, so it sounds like a bonus, but needs horse feats, but mounts without animal companion-like rules aren't amazing horses.

Master Spy: Rogue-driven, but surprisingly doesn't ask for sneak attack as pre-req, so may be good to make a powerful bandit sort of character (which doesn't sound like your idea).

Pathfinder Delver: You get some Rogue and Bard utility abilities such as Trapfinding and Bardic Knowledge. Sounds good if you want more out of combat options this sounds interesting, but doesn't help at all in the damage department.

[Coidzor]

I would say a mount has more chance to get targeted, just from area spells hitting you. Plus, if the mount is mainly for mobility, enemies will go out of their way to shoot it from under you and do so if your mount is fragile compared to you.

Unless the DM hates mounts, you're only going to get hit by area spells rather than getting the rider itself targeted if the caster doesn't have single-target spells available or the party is already bunched up anyway and so it'd've been in the spread regardless.

Unless the PC's threat entirely depends upon the mount, taking the PC out is more of a priority than the mount itself, barring, of course, the DM having a meta-game reason for enjoying mount-slaying.

[WarKitty]

Either way, the mount or animal companion is going to have to wait a while till I can afford anything of the sort. Mount would probably be more useful, animal companions taper off after a while. Might be easier to just work it out via leadership - even with the lower charisma I should be able to get a useable intelligent mount fairly quickly.

[kestrel404]

True enough. Heck, take a druid as your cohort and you can use him as your mount...somehow, I can't see that as ever happening. Ever.

[WarKitty]

True enough. Heck, take a druid as your cohort and you can use him as your mount...somehow, I can't see that as ever happening. Ever.

That would be grounds for a smiting.

[Coidzor]

That would be grounds for a smiting.

Because of how poor of a mount a pathfinder druid makes?