Fascinate and Suggestion: Can they not suck?

[Ardantis]

So, I got some great help building an Investigator Bard in another thread, and I started to wonder about the potential utility of Fascinate and Suggestion.

Flavor-wise, these are great abilities, and fit what, to me, a Bard is.

But some of people on these forums don't seem to think much of them.

Here's what I'm looking at for Fascinate, crunch-wise:

Pros:

A debilitating effect based on a skill check, so it'll succeed a lot of the time

Can be used a respectable amount of times per day

It's available from level 1, and adds abilities to it (Suggestion, Mass Suggestion, more uses, more targets)

Cons:

Affects VERY FEW creatures (9 at level 20)

CANNOT be used in combat, or during other threatening situations

Grants a new save anytime anything threatening happens to the target(s)

Requires concentration, so spells cannot be cast during it (even disguised ones)

Fascinating a bunch of dudes, then using Suggestion on one of them, doesn't guarantee that the one dude can convince the other dudes of his Suggestion.

If you Fascinate a bunch of dudes, and one of them succeeds on his save, does he notice that the others are Fascinated, and if so, does it concern him? Does that depend on how much the one dude regards the Bard as a threat to him and the others?


NOW:

Depending on how close you draw that knife, Fascinate COULD be argued to be usable just before or after combat, as a way to ambush (sneak up, reveal yourself and begin to Fascinate), or to end a duel (withdraw, disarm and begin to Fascinate)

SO-

Here are my questions.

1) What can Fascinate actually DO?

2) How have you seen it used?

3) How can it be improved? (Feats, spells, etc.)

4) Can it be replaced? (Alternate Class Features)

I will add, as a footnote, that I'm currently building an investigator (read: primarily non-combat), so Fascinate and Suggestion might be particularly useful, especially if I can figure out some good ways to use them.

[Jude_H]

1) What can Fascinate actually DO?
Occupy multiple enemies for minimal resources. If you've noticed how easily a buffed party steamrolls an unprepared enemy, you'll realize how important that is.

Distract multiple enemies. This can get the heavily armored members of your party into a guarded castle undetected, it can give the thief time to loot the targets, it can placate the Evil League of Evil while the paladin herds bystanders from the pub.

It can also allow Suggestions, which are silly in their own right. The ability may only work on 9 creatures from the MM, but it also works on just about any humanoid you'll encounter. There's nothing stopping the Bard from Suggesting multiple Fascinated targets one by one.

The only replacement I'd even consider is the Gnome Substitution level's escalating fear ability, and then only in certain builds.

[Talya]

I always trade these out, because the trouble is, bards can already do them with spells. Sure, they get very few spells, but it's worth it.

Your queston #(4): Fascinate gets traded for Healing Hymn, which is nice in its own right. Main reason, though, is suggestion gets traded out for Song of the Heart (feat) as per Eberron rules (even when not playing eberron.) This is really a nobrainer, I don't have near enough feats without doing this. Suggestion is a spell I always, always take anyway. Fascinate is useful, sure, but is it worth keeping without suggestion? I don't think so.

I love the bard class, but honestly, by the time I'm done with building one, even with 20 straight bard levels, I've probably traded away more features than I've kept. (Bard becomes Savage Bard, Bardic Knowledge becomes Bardic Knack, etc. etc. etc.)

[Crow]

Fascinate is something you use to distract people while someone else does something sneaky. Like fascinate the unsuspecting clerk while the rogue casually thumbs through the financial records to prove the trade company has been bribing customs officials. Or to keep the guards fascinated while the rest of the party walks through the gate without having their papers checked.

It's not a combat ability, and the people who say it sucks are the people who are trying to make it into one.

[Jude_H]

I always trade these out, because the trouble is, bards can already do them with spells.
Haha. This is the same reason I never take Suggestion or Enthrall, but fair point. :smallsmile:

It's mostly a matter of whether the elevated DCs and a couple free spells known outweigh the available ACFs. Typically, I think they do, but it's dependent on your character and your preferences.

[Talya]

Well, my bards typically also have Snowflake Wardance, and next time I play one, Dragonfire Inspiration. This means i potentially end up using a LOT of bardic music per fight...I can spare spells, but not bardsongs.

[krai]

Suggestion is one of those spells that is as powerful as your DM allows it to be. "Reasonable" is hard to define, it could be seen as reasonable for a guard to take an early break and visit the tavern, because he has had a long day. It could also be seen as unreasonable because he doesn't want to lose his job. I tend to have what is considered reasonable be more in favor of the PCs but not all DMs do.

[Ardantis]

Thanks guys.

After reviewing the available ACFs (Hymn of Healing, Song of the Heart) I have determined that Fascinate only swaps out for combat-only abilities, so although they are undoubtedly more powerful to a Snowflake Wardance / Dragonfire Inspiration kickass battle-bard, they do not suit my current needs. Sorry Talya.

On the other hand, I received some unexpected support for the ability from some of you (thank you Crow). It is a cheap way to debilitate a small group, and Suggestion is incredibly powerful although subject to interpretation. Will require some creativity on the player's part to make it work (and seem reasonable).

Jude_H- Where do I find the Gnome Substitution Levels for Escalating Fear? I'd like to compare the abilities, but I don't know the source and my search is failing me.

As above, I think you're right about Suggestion, it CAN be used in such a way as to seem "reasonable" and thus not arouse suspicion. It might make the soldier's comrades in your example respect him less (drunkard!) but I think that's a cost I'm willing to live with.

Two questions-

IS THERE a way to cast other spells during a Fascinate? I'm thinking spells modified by, say, the Deceptive Spell feat or the Conceal Spellcasting skill trick to look like they came from somewhere else or not at all.

Secondly, if I'm using Perform (comedy) and I attempt to Fascinate a group of guards, and one of the guards succeeds on his will save, what do you think his reaction to the state of the others will be? Assuming, of course, that they are enraptured and laughing.

What if he's the captain of the guard?

[Gullintanni]

Two questions-

IS THERE a way to cast other spells during a Fascinate? I'm thinking spells modified by, say, the Deceptive Spell feat or the Conceal Spellcasting skill trick to look like they came from somewhere else or not at all.

Secondly, if I'm using Perform (comedy) and I attempt to Fascinate a group of guards, and one of the guards succeeds on his will save, what do you think his reaction to the state of the others will be? Assuming, of course, that they are enraptured and laughing.

What if he's the captain of the guard?

The way my party handled a similar situation, that is my Cleric cast Enthrall on a group of guards and 2 of 11 saved; groupthink saved us. The two simply weren't influenced by my cleric's speech, but the other nine were. And so, rather than disrupt the other nine, risking ridicule from their peers who were genuinely interested in what was going on, they simply played along for the time being.

That being said, the two guards will still notice if something threatening is going on. They're not distracted by the spell.

IMHO, use your judgement. If the situation seems ordinary enough that a failed Fascinate would not be obtrusive, then those that fail their saves probably won't get involved. On the other hand, if you're using Fascinate to distract the guards inside a restricted area while your Fighter buddy in Full-Plate tries to walk by and loot their armory, well then you can bet those who make their saves are going to make with the violence.

[Ardantis]

Gullintanni~

Nice story. I really appreciate the context, because it will help me develop my judgment for when this situation is likely to arise.

To be honest, I'm amazed the playground (via you specifically) came through for me with just the old war story I needed for this particular situation. And here I thought you were all just combat optimizers!

But seriously, there is a depth of quality RP experience among the users here, and I appreciate the benefit of yours.

[QuidEst]

Like a lot of things, it's all in how you use it. It's handy when you're overwhelmed. You know in movies, where the good guys are in trouble (surrounded by angry natives, etc.) and one of them starts doing something funny or impressive? That'd be the Bard. Plant a Suggestion on the leader, and generally get into his good graces that way. In an emergency, you can even use it as a mechanics-based way to stop a party member from doing something really stupid.

Consider refluffing it just a little- roll for Perform like normal, but have them swing a pocket watch (or a GP with a hole in the center for the string) back and forth. With Suggestion, you've got yourself a hypnotism routine. Treat it that way, and chances are the DM will make rulings based on that interpretation. Gives you a little extra freedom with Suggestion, plus a more impressive show.

[Gwendol]

Doesn't Melodic Casting allow for spellcasting without disrupting the Bardic song? (feat from Complete Mage)

[Ardantis]

QuidEst~ I really like your interpretation- I hope to put it to good effect, using your situations as guidelines.

Gwendol~ Melodic Casting specifically states that Bard songs which require concentration to maintain still take a standard action, which precludes spellcasting (except for Quickened spells, of course).

Now, one last question:

What is the name of and where is the feat which doubles the number of creatures you may have Fascinated at once?

[QuidEst]

QuidEst~ I really like your interpretation- I hope to put it to good effect, using your situations as guidelines.


Thankies! Let me know how it goes. :elan: I haven't actually played yet, but I'll be using a Bard if I ever find a group. I'm pretty sure she'll have… other methods of distraction (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8iyYjvNgmo), however.

[Ardantis]

That was the LAST THING I thought that that would link to...

I declare you thread victor.

Now what is the feat that allows you to Fascinate more targets?

[Starbuck_II]

Suggestion is one of those spells that is as powerful as your DM allows it to be. "Reasonable" is hard to define, it could be seen as reasonable for a guard to take an early break and visit the tavern, because he has had a long day. It could also be seen as unreasonable because he doesn't want to lose his job. I tend to have what is considered reasonable be more in favor of the PCs but not all DMs do.

Why not keep doing it. Remember you can suggest 1/rd while he is fascinated (suggest is unlimited in useage, only fascinate cost a dailty useage). Eventually he will fail.

[QuidEst]

That was the LAST THING I thought that that would link to...

I declare you thread victor.

*bows* Thank you! That was the intent. XP She is just that sort of person…