Help Tanslating 4ed terms to 3.5

[Gorfang113]

So, lately ive been buying some of the expansions for fourth edition ( Vor Rukoth and Shadowfell to be exact, but im going to get more soon). I have been mainly stealing characters, quests and good ideas from them. I also love the City Maps they come with. I would like to take some of the monsters and items from them as well. However, I have no knowledge of fourth edition at all. Most of the things in them are faily easy for me to understand. But then I hit things such as skill challanges and healing surges (what?) and have absolutly no idea what they are talking about. If someone could explain these in 3.5 terms or close to them it would be much appreciated, as I would rather not spends lots of money on the new core books that i will otherwise not use at all to find out a few terms. Thanks in advance (im pretty sure this should be in the 3.5 forum, but if it isn't then could it be moved to the 4ed one?)

[Safety Sword]

As the Ghost Busters said "Don't cross the streams!"

As I understand it (admittedly, not all that well), skill challenges are a way to resolve complicated scenarios by using skill checks at certain points to resolve the outcomes.

If you've ever played Assassin's Creed video games (and you SHOULD!!), I like to think of the Tombs as skill challenges. All the jumping and getting to places that "normal" people can't get to.

Healing surges are a certain number per day thing where you "spend" them to regain a portion of your health. I don't think 3.5 has an analogue...

[LaughingRogue]

I'm not a 4e guy, tried it a few times --- enough to realize that I wasn't a fan of it.

The problem with threads like these are that ,they don't really "belong" anywhere --- If it's in the 4e area, then it relies on them knowing some 3.5 and it requires the 3.5 people to know 4e ---> you could probably post it in both places for max efficiency.

[SowZ]

So, lately ive been buying some of the expansions for fourth edition ( Vor Rukoth and Shadowfell to be exact, but im going to get more soon). I have been mainly stealing characters, quests and good ideas from them. I also love the City Maps they come with. I would like to take some of the monsters and items from them as well. However, I have no knowledge of fourth edition at all. Most of the things in them are faily easy for me to understand. But then I hit things such as skill challanges and healing surges (what?) and have absolutly no idea what they are talking about. If someone could explain these in 3.5 terms or close to them it would be much appreciated, as I would rather not spends lots of money on the new core books that i will otherwise not use at all to find out a few terms. Thanks in advance (im pretty sure this should be in the 3.5 forum, but if it isn't then could it be moved to the 4ed one?)

Skill challenges was already explained. In 4e, there is no flat healing magic. There are surges. A surge is a certain percentage of your health and you can only use so many per day based on primary class and your constitution. A healing potion, then, allows you to spend a healing surge. A healing spell, too, and a good healing spell might say "ally spends a healing surge and regains an additional X HP" where X may be the charisma mod or a something. Once per encounter, you can spend one yourself, (which is like the part in the movie where after the hero has been beat up over and over just says 'no' and gets up swinging.)

This means a few things. 1. All healing scales with level. 2. A body can only take so much punishment, so no matter how you spam healing potions or how many cleric buddies you have, your body will eventually stop healing.

It is actually quite an elegant mechanic and possibly my favorite change for 4e.

[Greenish]

4e and 3.5 are quite different systems(not like, say, Mouse Guard and Rune Quest, but still).

Healing surges heal 1/4th of your maximum hp each (if my memory holds), and can be used out of combat as much as you want (up to a daily limit by your class), but in combat only once (barring special abilities). There's really no 3.5 analogue.

In skill challenges, as I've understood them, you try a certain skill check several times, and the number of successes tells you whether you've succeeded in the whole task (but I may be talking out of my arse here, I'm not too familiar with 4th ed.). 3.5 analogue would just be making lots of checks.

[SowZ]

4e and 3.5 are quite different systems(not like, say, Mouse Guard and Rune Quest, but still).

Healing surges heal 1/4th of your maximum hp each (if my memory holds), and can be used out of combat as much as you want (up to a daily limit by your class), but in combat only once (barring special abilities). There's really no 3.5 analogue.

In skill challenges, as I've understood them, you try a certain skill check several times, and the number of successes tells you whether you've succeeded in the whole task (but I may be talking out of my arse here, I'm not too familiar with 4th ed.). 3.5 analogue would just be making lots of checks.

That looks spot on to me and is how I have played it.

[Greenish]

That looks spot on to me and is how I have played it.Grand, I've been trying to pick up the basics, though I've yet to have a chance to try 4E out.

[Circle of Life]

The 3.5 analogue to skill challenges is Complex Skill Checks. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/complexSkillChecks.htm) Sorta.

[SowZ]

Grand, I've been trying to pick up the basics, though I've yet to have a chance to try 4E out.

It is a fun system. One advantage to finding a chance to try it out is that it seems like newer gamers have an easier time picking it up. So that's a plus. While some people complain that it has less depth then 3.5, this isn't so. It is just focused in different areas. Choosing when to use what powers and abilities and making sure you are making choices that mesh with the groups tactical considerations seems to get some players more into the game, as well, rather than a handful of things many classes can do during combat in 3.5.

[Greenish]

Heh, I'm not looking to "switch over", I've just been meaning to try out the system, just like I've been trying to give a shot for MG or several other games (how is it you never have enough time for this stuff?).

The way I see 4e, it's not a replacement for 3.5, but a different game entirely.

[Mando Knight]

In 4e, there is no flat healing magic.
Actually, there are some "surgeless healing" powers, but they're rare and almost always weaker than spending a healing surge... and most are actually temp HP powers... compared to surges healing wounds, they're like simple bandages or simply sucking it up and braving through the pain.

Main other terms to be familiar with (also explained in the PHB, but here's a fairly quick run down:
Defenses: The Fort/Ref/Will saves of 3.X have been changed to static defenses, so the attacker always rolls the d20 to see if the attack is successful, whether it's a sword swing or a fireball spell. Referred to collectively as NADs (Non-AC Defenses) since they tend to be lower than AC and usually the defenses targeted by powers with nasty rider effects.

Powers: A cross between the Tome of Battle's maneuvers, Psionic Powers, and Spells of 3.X. The At-Will, Encounter, and Daily part denotes how frequently you can use them.

Saving Throws: Most like the dying-stabilization roll from 3.X. Roll against a flat DC 10, bonuses to these are relatively rare. Used to stop ongoing effects, as well as avoid falling into lava pits or trying to not die when below 0 HP.

Mark: An enemy-challenging/aggro-control effect, usually thrown out by Defenders. Enemies suffer a -2 penalty to attack if they don't include the character. Defenders frequently have extra effects that punish the enemy if they decide that the penalty to hit is worth it, which it may be since Defenders are generally the hardest targets to kill on the battlefield.

Character Roles: Controller, Defender, Leader, Striker. These are WotC's terms for crowd/battle control and debuff specialist, tank/meatshield, healer/buffer, and Damage per Round specialist, respectively. Each class has one of these as a primary role, and may bleed into another role depending on the build. Examples: since Save-Or-Die spells are much rarer in 4e (almost non-existent and generally just one part of a certain-death combo), Wizards (Controllers) usually specialize in keeping the enemy from operating to the fullest of their ability... however, they can also deal a lot of damage to multiple opponents at once (a Striker trait) if they are built to do so. Similarly, Fighters (Defenders) slip into their usual meatshield role... but due to their skill with the weapons they wield, they also often end up dealing significant amounts of damage (again, Striker), though this helps their "aggro control" since no one likes to let a Fighter smash through their defenses while holding their attacks at bay.

[SowZ]

Actually, there are some "surgeless healing" powers, but they're rare and almost always weaker than spending a healing surge... and most are actually temp HP powers... compared to surges healing wounds, they're like simple bandages or simply sucking it up and braving through the pain.

Main other terms to be familiar with (also explained in the PHB, but here's a fairly quick run down:
Defenses: The Fort/Ref/Will saves of 3.X have been changed to static defenses, so the attacker always rolls the d20 to see if the attack is successful, whether it's a sword swing or a fireball spell. Referred to collectively as NADs (Non-AC Defenses) since they tend to be lower than AC and usually the defenses targeted by powers with nasty rider effects.

Powers: A cross between the Tome of Battle's maneuvers, Psionic Powers, and Spells of 3.X. The At-Will, Encounter, and Daily part denotes how frequently you can use them.

Saving Throws: Most like the dying-stabilization roll from 3.X. Roll against a flat DC 10, bonuses to these are relatively rare. Used to stop ongoing effects, as well as avoid falling into lava pits or trying to not die when below 0 HP.

Mark: An enemy-challenging/aggro-control effect, usually thrown out by Defenders. Enemies suffer a -2 penalty to attack if they don't include the character. Defenders frequently have extra effects that punish the enemy if they decide that the penalty to hit is worth it, which it may be since Defenders are generally the hardest targets to kill on the battlefield.

Character Roles: Controller, Defender, Leader, Striker. These are WotC's terms for crowd/battle control and debuff specialist, tank/meatshield, healer/buffer, and Damage per Round specialist, respectively. Each class has one of these as a primary role, and may bleed into another role depending on the build. Examples: since Save-Or-Die spells are much rarer in 4e (almost non-existent and generally just one part of a certain-death combo), Wizards (Controllers) usually specialize in keeping the enemy from operating to the fullest of their ability... however, they can also deal a lot of damage to multiple opponents at once (a Striker trait) if they are built to do so. Similarly, Fighters (Defenders) slip into their usual meatshield role... but due to their skill with the weapons they wield, they also often end up dealing significant amounts of damage (again, Striker), though this helps their "aggro control" since no one likes to let a Fighter smash through their defenses while holding their attacks at bay.

Classes have a secondary role or two they can fill moderately well depending on the build, but a Anything/Striker combo is most common probably because Wizard knows that no matter how much they affect the battle, a good chunk of players won't feel they are contributing/having fun if they aren't killing stuff.

[DeAnno]

The problem of trying to convert 4e stuff to 3.5e isn't even just one of mechanics, its one of scale. In 3.5e, very few things are very well policed, including saves, AC, to hit, movement modes, battlefield control and a number of other things. After low levels, combat mainly consists of trying to find a way of inflicting yourself on your enemy that the enemy is unable to deal with or block before the enemy does the same to you. Monsters tend to have HP scales fairly similar to PCs, averaging perhaps twice as much as a bulky PC at higher levels, and usually must rely on outrageous defensive measures or BFC to survive.

In 4e, there is much stricter policing of everything but number of attacks and static damage. 4e combat tends to be won by setting up chains or combos of the party making very many hits with high static mods, dealing damage that can quite easily scale into the thousands per round. Everything regarding hitting and defending is very tightly controlled, and optimizing a situation enough so that you hit on a 2 will almost always require party gimmicks or coordination. "Sumo" Monsters tend not to be too difficult to hit or effect, but have immense reserves of thousands of hp to try to outlast the inevitable PC novas.

If you put a high level 4e monster into 3.5e, it has high risk of ending up as a helpless locked down tofu ball, or alternately massively exhausting or outlasting party resources if they are not set up for dealing with it properly.

[Loren]

There are lots of subtle changes between the editions that you may not pick up on right away (such as "saves" are totally different things). I'd suggest familiarizing youself witht the basics of the system before translating too much mechanically. Basically everthing you need to know about 4E's rules are availible following this link

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/quickstartrules.pdf

[ericgrau]

Skill challenges: Basically extended skill checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/complexSkillChecks.htm) (but different in 4e).

Healing surge: X/day, based on his con modifier IIRC, any class can heal 1/4 his maximum hitpoints. This can come from using your second wind once per encounter or certain effects like spells. After they run out no more healing for you unless the effect doesn't use healing surges, which is uncommon.

That said you can't play 4e modules with 3.5e rules any more than you can make toast with a blender. You need the new core books. Understanding 3.5e might help you understand 4e a little, but for the most part they are nothing alike.