Crab Battle!

[Thiyr]

The Apparatus of the Crab. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#apparatusoftheCrab) Well renowned for its utter worthlessness. Expensive, and weak in addition.

Challenge accepted.

I've got an idea rolling around in my head, and would like to hear more opinions on how to make it work. Thusfar, my plan is as follows: Warforged artificer who's main mode of combat is a heavily modified apparatus of the crab. As in, well over half their gold goes into it, and they take a lot of effort to make it worthwhile. What I need is good example modifications to add. Custom ideas are fine at the moment, as I can probably come up with a price on my own for it.

Current list of ideas/things i'm looking for to make a cool battle-crabtank:

Speeding up the pulling of levers. Odds are, the character will be attempting to (via magitechnobabble) do one of those fancy-pants direct interfaces with it in order to pull this off. Odds are, i can talk to w/e DM i have and convince them that it's not worth too much, especially if i sacrifice the space for a passenger

Improved defenses: This will likely consist of a mixture of making the crab itself harder to break (probably hiring someone to cast Hardening on it), as well as making it harder to hit in general. Raising its AC is feasible, but other forms of defenses (even non-numerical ones) would be good to have around.

Attacks: those pincers are fairly worthless. The easy solution would be to add wand-based turrets, but that would probably add quite a bit to the cost for being basically a glorified wandificer. Adding potential alternate attack routes would be nifty, though.

Mobility: Current plans pretty much boil down to levitate+propulsion, eventually upgraded to flight as it becomes affordable. Underwater is already pretty much covered. Burrowing may be nice, but it's probably not too important at the moment (though it could lead to entertaining combat opportunities), and speed boosts would be good.

Detection: Being able to see what you're fighting is good. To that end, building in some mode of sight for the occupant would be a good idea. I'm figuring tremorsense or blindsense would be a good starting point. I'm not gonna bother trying to price out mindsight, just because...well, i've had enough recent characters use it, and that'd be a bit twitchy for me at this point.

Any more tips for an aspiring Crabificer? Tips on how to make myself a robo-TDC?

EDIT: Other tips that would be useful for me: Relevant ways of decreasing the price of actually MAKING this bloody thing. The plan is to make this as viable as early as possible. Gold is the big limiter here, and I know there are two feats that'll help out (reducing it to 75% of the total cost, and reducing it by 25% of the base cost, respectively), I'm just wondering if there's any other shenanigans to get that 22.5k price tag down further.

[Flickerdart]

Making it out of Riverine should help, but would be pricey.

[SowZ]

The Apparatus of the Crab. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#apparatusoftheCrab) Well renowned for its utter worthlessness. Expensive, and weak in addition.

Challenge accepted.

I've got an idea rolling around in my head, and would like to hear more opinions on how to make it work. Thusfar, my plan is as follows: Warforged artificer who's main mode of combat is a heavily modified apparatus of the crab. As in, well over half their gold goes into it, and they take a lot of effort to make it worthwhile. What I need is good example modifications to add. Custom ideas are fine at the moment, as I can probably come up with a price on my own for it.

Current list of ideas/things i'm looking for to make a cool battle-crabtank:

Speeding up the pulling of levers. Odds are, the character will be attempting to (via magitechnobabble) do one of those fancy-pants direct interfaces with it in order to pull this off. Odds are, i can talk to w/e DM i have and convince them that it's not worth too much, especially if i sacrifice the space for a passenger

Improved defenses: This will likely consist of a mixture of making the crab itself harder to break (probably hiring someone to cast Hardening on it), as well as making it harder to hit in general. Raising its AC is feasible, but other forms of defenses (even non-numerical ones) would be good to have around.

Attacks: those pincers are fairly worthless. The easy solution would be to add wand-based turrets, but that would probably add quite a bit to the cost for being basically a glorified wandificer. Adding potential alternate attack routes would be nifty, though.

Mobility: Current plans pretty much boil down to levitate+propulsion, eventually upgraded to flight as it becomes affordable. Underwater is already pretty much covered. Burrowing may be nice, but it's probably not too important at the moment (though it could lead to entertaining combat opportunities), and speed boosts would be good.

Detection: Being able to see what you're fighting is good. To that end, building in some mode of sight for the occupant would be a good idea. I'm figuring tremorsense or blindsense would be a good starting point. I'm not gonna bother trying to price out mindsight, just because...well, i've had enough recent characters use it, and that'd be a bit twitchy for me at this point.

Any more tips for an aspiring Crabificer? Tips on how to make myself a robo-TDC?

Double barrelled repeating ballistas.

[Chess435]

Double barrelled auto-loading repeating ballistas.

Now we're talking.... :smallbiggrin:

[TroubleBrewing]

Double barrelled auto-loading splitting repeating ballistas.

Now we're REALLY cooking with magic gas!

[DeAnno]

Maybe you could custom make enchanted barding for it to wear/have welded on. That would significantly raise its AC, and you could even throw the Freedom of Movement enchantment on it which would be quite useful.

The pincers are pretty lousy as is, but if you could raise the attack bonus drastically and attach a bunch more, they could be good since snapping them all = 1 lever pull.

You could try to replace the create flame in the eyes with some more dangerous spell (Disintegrate is always a classy choice for eye beams).

[Olo Demonsbane]

I'd attach a few spell turrets to the outside of the crab :smallbiggrin:

[Chess435]

Double barrelled repeating auto-loading splitting ballistas of speed.

When in doubt, more dakka!

[TroubleBrewing]

GARGANTUAN-SIZED double barrelled auto-loading splitting repeating ballistas of speed.

MOOOOAAAAARRRR DAKKA

EDIT: I just realized I used the wrong color blue. Sonofacrap.

[Talya]

Someone once found me a clockwork creature template, in Green Ronin's Advanced Beastiary. The reason I bring it up, is what about applying it to "that damned crab" instead of using the "apparatus"?

[Flickerdart]

Why not just use Effigy then? From what I hear, Green Ronin stuff is not so good.

[TroubleBrewing]

From what I hear, Green Ronin stuff is not so good.

Better than dandwiki, slightly better than Mongoose, still hit-or-miss on the whole. 6 out of 10.

[Thiyr]

Someone once found me a clockwork creature template, in Green Ronin's Advanced Beastiary. The reason I bring it up, is what about applying it to "that damned crab" instead of using the "apparatus"?


Why not just use Effigy then? From what I hear, Green Ronin stuff is not so good.

Sadly, while likely far more efficient, a large part of this for me is actually taking the utterly worthless apparatus of the crab and making it work, rather than simply being a crab-based warrior.

edit: Think of this like Iron Chef Op. The secret ingredient is Crab (Apparatus of the)

[Coidzor]

Not wand turrets. Spell turrets. :smallamused:


Better than dandwiki, slightly better than Mongoose, still hit-or-miss on the whole. 6 out of 10.

Huh. I thought mongoose and green ronin were at least slightly well regarded.

...

...

Is anyone well-regarded for their work? :smallconfused:

[Vizzerdrix]

I'd love to see a price/power comparison between this, and an Effigy Siege Crab (MM3 pg156).

...65,000 gold at market, 45,000 gold to make.

We need to give the the Apparatus two extra claws, But one is a chainsaw, and the other a drill! :smallbiggrin:

[Haldir]

Create a custom magic item that allows you to control the claw with motions from your hand, reducing it's use to a single move action. Perhaps you wear it as a glove slot item while inside the beast. Animate Objects would probably be required at the time of crafting.

Because let's face it, if you don't have the claw then it's not really a crab.

[Coidzor]

I'd love to see a price/power comparison between this, and an Effigy Siege Crab (MM3 pg156).

...65,000 gold at market, 45,000 gold to make.

For the effigy? Huh. They have the same production cost then. Though the apparatus has a 90K market value.

[Vizzerdrix]

My math may be wrong, so I'll post it:

Gargantuan body=25,000g (Although, can vermin take the Dungeonbred template?): Price not reduced for crafting.

20 HD=40,000g. 20,000 if crafted.

I think I found a mobile workshop for my next artificer :smallsmile:

[Coidzor]

Gargantuan body=25,000g (Although, can vermin take the Dungeonbred template?)

Yep, Vermin can be dungeonbred. As can... aberrations, animals, and magical beasts. That are corporeal.

[candycorn]

1) Allow the pilot to attune the crab to a weapon, which provides the qualities of that weapon to the crab. So a +3 cold iron dagger of wounding would let it bypass dr/cold iron, give it a +3 to attack and damage, and give its attacks the wounding quality.

2) Give the crab 3 slots for weapon augment crystals and 3 slots for armor augment crystals.

3) Allow armor infusions to target the crab, along with any spells/powers that add or modify movement modes.

[beyond reality]

as far as pulling the levers it seems like a good solution for a warforged artificer would be some homunculi. The apparatus can hold 2 medium sized creatures so logically it can hold one medium creature and 4 tiny creatures. Giving a verbal command is a free action so the homunculi can easily operate the apparatus. leaving you free to fire wands from the hatch or operate weapons mounted on the outside of the apparatus.

[Urpriest]

Not wand turrets. Spell turrets. :smallamused:



Huh. I thought mongoose and green ronin were at least slightly well regarded.

...

...

Is anyone well-regarded for their work? :smallconfused:

Dream-Scarred Press seems to be well-loved.

[Silva Stormrage]

I first opened this thread expecting it to be about that damned crab >.>.

[Feytalist]

I first opened this thread expecting it to be about that damned crab >.>.

Yep, same here. Heh.


as far as pulling the levers it seems like a good solution for a warforged artificer would be some homunculi. The apparatus can hold 2 medium sized creatures so logically it can hold one medium creature and 4 tiny creatures. Giving a verbal command is a free action so the homunculi can easily operate the apparatus. leaving you free to fire wands from the hatch or operate weapons mounted on the outside of the apparatus.

This sounds like a good idea, actually.

When I read this, something popped into my head: the Halruaan skyship has a unique steering/controlling method via some sort of magic device thing, using only a standard action. I remember thinking it was quite powerful for such a large vessel. Maybe reverse engineer that? I know It's described in Magic of Faerun, maybe Shining South, and Some or the other Dragon mag. #3somethingsomething. #319? I'll go check.

[Thiyr]

Update: So I found the Living in a Flying Box thread. This has inspired me. What better way to attack than to have mini-attack drones buzzing about killing the everliving carp out of my enemies. Better yet, make those drones unkillable attack-fish. Small attack-effigies?

Sadly, making this a riverine crab would be prohibitively expensive, as it would add a good 100k to the cost.

Spellturrets: not a bad idea, with two major problems. a) I'd need to figure out a good way to price them. b) potentially has problems as far as unintended targets, and no way to direct their fire to a more important target. That and becuase it requires no action on my part, I can see it becoming mighty abusive mighty quicklike in actual play. I'm trying to keep this more practical, sadly, though i'll keep it in mind if I honestly want to make a walking battlefortress...Hmm...If I ever play in an epic game, I know what I'm doing though. hee hee hee.

[Zarake]

What about adding some way for it to cast Wall of Force or Prismatic wall, every battle fortress needs shield generators XD

[Gorfang113]

This thread has given me the best idea for an aquatic NPC ever. An aging Sahuagin Artificer who travels the ocean floor in his Labratory (an effigy Seige Crab). For people he likes and those who comission him he makes nice chuul and monstorus crab effigys. For those annoying adventurers who keep showing up begging for something, he gives them a junky Apparatus of the Crab so that they will get out of his damn crab already.

[Dragonsoul]

View Post
GARGANTUAN-SIZED Flaming double barrelled auto-loading splitting repeating ballistas of speed.

If in Doubt, set it on fire.

[Chess435]

GARGANTUAN-SIZED Flaming double barrelled gatling auto-loading splitting repeating ballistas of speed.

Can anyone top that? :smallbiggrin:

[Doug Lampert]

Not wand turrets. Spell turrets. :smallamused:



Huh. I thought mongoose and green ronin were at least slightly well regarded.

...

...

Is anyone well-regarded for their work? :smallconfused:

Core is broken and badly ballanced. I mean, the Druid and Monk are right there presented as if both were viable ballanced classes.

Now, any splat book writer who doesn't work for a spooky wizard who lives on the coast lacks "legitimacy". His work is broken until proven reasonable, WotC gets the reasonable until proven broken.

So, if the Druid is part of the core baseline then anything vastly worse and more or less globally outclassed is justly called on "that's crap". And the Druid is part of baseline D&D.

If the Monk is part of the core baseline then anything vastly and more or less globally superior is justly called on "that's overpowered". And the Monk is part of baseline D&D.

Unfortunately, it's difficult not to be in one of those ranges given that crap compared to the druid and overpowered compared to the monk are overlapping sets!

What ballance point is a non-WotC spatbook SUPPOSED to aim for? Batman wizard? Simple Druid? Diplomancer? Initiate of the seven vails? CW samuri? True namer? Monk? Core only fighter?

At any of those points and anywhere inbetween someone won't like it. Imagine if Dungeon Crasher or Shock Trouper were non-WotC splat-book feats. I feel confident they'd be ignored by almost everyone as grossly overpowered.

EDIT: The best a splat book writer can aim for is either an internally consistent power level within his stuff, or consistent with existing D&D classes with a similar purpose and type (aka prepared casters are tier 1, melee is mostly tier 4-5). But even if he hits that he has to worry about synergy with a bunch of stuff by other publishers.

DougL

[Fouredged Sword]

Outside WoTC books aren't themselves so much of a balance issue compared to what is currently WoTC, but the problem is orders of magnitude. There are a lot of WoTC books to go through, and even more 3rd party books. As a DM it gets silly trying to keep up with it all.

[Coidzor]

Seems like there's some steps missing if your explanation for why 3rd party is so reviled is that people don't have the time and effort to bother learning it.

[TroubleBrewing]

Perhaps a different thread for this discussion? I'd like to delve deeper into this 3rd part vs. Official material discussion, but not on a thread not dedicated for the purpose.

[Morph Bark]

Couldn't four Small character simply go into the apparatus of the crab and give it more actions per round than normal? Put in four level 1 halfling commoner minions. :smallamused:

[Randomguy]

Or just have someone cast unseen servant a few times. ( I think there's actually a mass unseen servant spell.) That way it doesn't take up air and it doesn't take up space.

[Daftendirekt]

Just what is "that damn crab" referring to?

[Urpriest]

Just what is "that damn crab" referring to?

This Damn Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)

For a CR 3 it's...something, let's put it that way.

[Qwertystop]

I believe it was a Monstrous Crab, which is way overpowered for its CR. Can't remember the details.

On the topic of the Apparatus, make it out of hardened two-way mirror. That way you can see out and it looks like its made of quintessence. Tint the mirror if you want it to be more like a crab.

Replace the headlight-things with Decanters of Endless Lava. I know they don't exist, but still. Or just the air-equivalent of Endless Water, plus some kind of flame.

[Volthawk]

Perhaps a different thread for this discussion? I'd like to delve deeper into this 3rd part vs. Official material discussion, but not on a thread not dedicated for the purpose.

Well, there is this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213392) for that, although that has more of a focus on player-made homebrew, not published 3rd party.

[TheGeckoKing]

I'd love to see a price/power comparison between this, and an Effigy Siege Crab (MM3 pg156).

...65,000 gold at market, 45,000 gold to make.

We need to give the the Apparatus two extra claws, But one is a chainsaw, and the other a drill! :smallbiggrin:

I looked it up, and it doesn't work. The Siege Crab's compartment is a Special Quality, lost upon Effigy-cation. :smallfrown:

[sreservoir]

Couldn't four Small character simply go into the apparatus of the crab and give it more actions per round than normal? Put in four level 1 halfling commoner minions. :smallamused:

reduce person.

[Morph Bark]

reduce person.

You're evil. :smallamused:

Alternatively, kobolds (Slight Build!), get four times the actions. With reduce person, eight times.

[Inferno]

I would think an elemental land cart (Eberron Explorers Handbook) would make if a not better then simpler chassis to work with.

[Metahuman1]

Make the Crab out of Riverine. Yes, I know, it's gonna be ungodly expensive. Bear with me.

Make traps and a couple of custom Items that are built into the Crab. Have each of these dedicated to disabling one single thing that can hurt Riverine.

Example: Trap that activates when someone casts Disintegrate on the Crab. It casts a Disintegrate and counter spells it, thus making Disintegrate a none option for attacking the crab.

With the short list of Spells and Items that can hurt Riverine now disable, it can't be hurt, thus, it doesn't matter if it's getting hit! Throw in a trick or two for bailing out of a grapple that you can't win or other Nerf, and congratulations, it's a nigh Invincible force too be reckoned with!

[Omeron's Chosen]

Originally Posted by Dragonsoul
GARGANTUAN-SIZED Flaming double barrelled gatling auto-loading splitting repeating ballistas of speed. Can anyone top that? :smallbiggrin:

GARGANTUAN-SIZED Flaming double barrelled gatling auto-loading splitting repeating FORCE ballistas of speed.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true!

[erikun]

Can anyone top that? :smallbiggrin:
Animate a crossbow, then awaken it. It is now an intelligent creature, and so can start taking class levels. Teach it to become an Arcane Archer.

It can now shoot Antimagic Fields.

[DarkestKnight]

you are an artificer!
It should read
GARGANTUAN-SIZED Flaming double barrelled gatling auto-loading splitting repeating FORCE sizing arbalester of speed.
Take the homunculi from magic of ebberon! now it is sentient and your crew doesn't have to worry about a couple of levers. also with sizing it can morph into any size. including colossal ++++. have fun shooting...

[GreenSerpent]

GARGANTUAN-SIZED Flaming double barrelled gatling auto-loading splitting repeating force poisoned ballistas of speed.

If in doubt, set it on fire. If still in doubt, add poison.

[Diefje]

GARGANTUAN-SIZED Flaming sonic burst double barrelled gatling auto-loading splitting repeating force poisoned sizing arbalester of speed.

Nothing says awesome like a big boom at the end