Dmpc's that just wont die

[lyko555]

In my current campaign my players ran into a Gauth (Cr beholder kin) I had meant for them to fight it but somehow they talked it into joining the party. It involved some really good role play and a nat 20 diplomacy check to top it off.
So I have ended up running a dmpc with i normally hate. The party loved him and proceeded to use a mini beholder to the best of their abilities.

Eventually Greg the gauth died to a 1 shot ambush. i was quite happy with it because it was totally random and i would've rather he died than a party member. I however hadn't realized how much the party had become attached to Greg. I mean heck they were even giving him a full share of party loot. What i really didn't expect was the archivist to risk life and limb mid combat to run over and hit him with last gasp aka quickie reincarnate.

So many minutes later she gets a roll on a random aberration chart and now the party has a pet mindflayer >.<
Has anyone else been in a situation like this before?

[SowZ]

In my current campaign my players ran into a Gauth (Cr beholder kin) I had meant for them to fight it but somehow they talked it into joining the party. It involved some really good role play and a nat 20 diplomacy check to top it off.
So I have ended up running a dmpc with i normally hate. The party loved him and proceeded to use a mini beholder to the best of their abilities.

Eventually Greg the gauth died to a 1 shot ambush. i was quite happy with it because it was totally random and i would've rather he died than a party member. I however hadn't realized how much the party had become attached to Greg. I mean heck they were even giving him a full share of party loot. What i really didn't expect was the archivist to risk life and limb mid combat to run over and hit him with last gasp aka quickie reincarnate.

So many minutes later she gets a roll on a random aberration chart and now the party has a pet mindflayer >.<
Has anyone else been in a situation like this before?

This isn't really a DMPC since the party obtained it through mechanical means and it is them who is making use of it through their decisions and initiative. I would try and have some fun with it. Do you dislike an extra character to plan for or is it just on principal that you are frustrated?

[LaughingRogue]

In my current campaign my players ran into a Gauth (Cr beholder kin) I had meant for them to fight it but somehow they talked it into joining the party. It involved some really good role play and a nat 20 diplomacy check to top it off.
So I have ended up running a dmpc with i normally hate. The party loved him and proceeded to use a mini beholder to the best of their abilities.

Eventually Greg the gauth died to a 1 shot ambush. i was quite happy with it because it was totally random and i would've rather he died than a party member. I however hadn't realized how much the party had become attached to Greg. I mean heck they were even giving him a full share of party loot. What i really didn't expect was the archivist to risk life and limb mid combat to run over and hit him with last gasp aka quickie reincarnate.

So many minutes later she gets a roll on a random aberration chart and now the party has a pet mindflayer >.<
Has anyone else been in a situation like this before?

There's a Diplomacy chart and 20 on a diplomacy does not mean auto success...in general it is only auto if it's an attack roll or a save.

[Seerow]

Yeah a DMPC is a PC that the DM creates to 'guide' the party, and is typically really bad due to the DM doting on the DMPC, giving it awesome unique special powers, being higher level than the party, and just generally stealing the spotlight from the players.

It seems pretty obvious that your intent here wasn't a DMPC, just rather an NPC that the party picked up. Like SowZ said, just roll with it and let them enjoy their pet/friend. Maybe ask one of the PCs to pick up leadership at the earliest opportunity if they intend to keep him around indefinitely.

[lyko555]

This isn't really a DMPC since the party obtained it through mechanical means and it is them who is making use of it through their decisions and initiative. I would try and have some fun with it. Do you dislike an extra character to plan for or is it just on principal that you are frustrated?

Its not that i dislike the character its that they are using him to essentially cheat. Aka the challenges designed weren't meant for their to be a super stun happy gauth, and now they are using the mind flayer as a quick and easy means to detect the sneaky undead things that were infiltrating the city.



the nat 20 on the diplomacy was an auto success they just did a very good job of roleplaying the initial start up of the encounter and had him convinced then they hammered it shut with a 34 diplomacy check.

I posted this not as a <arg pull hair this sucks> but as a slightly humored (wow cant believe my players became attached to the monster) on a side note. Why would any one trust an Illithid to stand watch ?

[SowZ]

Its not that i dislike the character its that they are using him to essentially cheat. Aka the challenges designed weren't meant for their to be a super stun happy gauth, and now they are using the mind flayer as a quick and easy means to detect the sneaky undead things that were infiltrating the city.



the nat 20 on the diplomacy was an auto success they just did a very good job of roleplaying the initial start up of the encounter and had him convinced then they hammered it shut with a 34 diplomacy check.

I posted this not as a <arg pull hair this sucks> but as a slightly humored (wow cant believe my players became attached to the monster) on a side note. Why would any one trust an Illithid to stand watch ?

There are ways you can make certain challenges where the Ithillid has to be left behind for the duration of that challenge or make encounters where the Ithillid has to one on one another dude for a while so everyone else deals with the main enemies. There are ways to take care of it some of the time without totally taking away the advantage the players have over gaining such an ally.

[Vizzerdrix]

Well you have a good hook right there to make him go away if you want. Maybe he's starting to look at the party more as snacks and less as friends.

[Drachasor]

Yeah a DMPC is a PC that the DM creates to 'guide' the party, and is typically really bad due to the DM doting on the DMPC, giving it awesome unique special powers, being higher level than the party, and just generally stealing the spotlight from the players.

A ton of people do NOT define "DMPC" this way.

I'd say the minimum you should need is for it to be an NPC that's part of the party and which the DM considers to be his character. So the OP might not have a DMPC by this definition. Though, one might argue any NPC that's a permanent part of the party and not gained through permanent PC abilities (like leadership), is a DMPC. In which case this IS a DMPC.

That said, there's nothing inherently wrong with a DMPC. If the party enjoys it and is willing enough to take risks to keep it alive, then that's a positive addition to the game in all likelihood. Is it causing some sort of problem with combat difficulty or anything? Will it as an illithid?


Well you have a good hook right there to make him go away if you want. Maybe he's starting to look at the party more as snacks and less as friends.

Or an adventure hook. Maybe he doesn't like them looking like food, and now the party has to quest for a Wish to change him back.

[Dralnu]

Make the DMPC into the BBEG. I'm sure you can find some reason why the villain wanted to infiltrate the party. :smallcool:

[BiblioRook]

Man do I hate the 'Nat 20 means auto success' concept. If you are letting your players get away with normally impossible feats just because of a 1 in 20 chance, I'm sorry but that's bad DMing. Maybe giving a bonus (like say, +5 after modifiers?) on a nat 20 would be appropriate, but other then that the players should have their skill ranks speak for themselves.

Even then, maybe convincing an evil monster to not outright attack them would be plausible, convincing it to join their party is just rather ridiculous.

That aside, I actually had a point to this post. As it so happened... the same thing happened to a party I was in as well. I mean... literally.
There was a Gauth, a nat 20 on a diplomacy or some such role was made, then it joined the group. I wasn't there, else I would have tried putting a stop to that nonsense. I don't remember just what happened to it, all I know it was 'removed' shortly before my side of the quest joined up with their side as the DM though that having a mini-beholder as a pet would make the party too over powered.

[SowZ]

Man do I hate the 'Nat 20 means auto success' concept. If you are letting your players get away with normally impossible feats just because of a 1 in 20 chance, I'm sorry but that's bad DMing. Maybe giving a bonus (like say, +5 after modifiers?) on a nat 20 would be appropriate, but other then that the players should have their skill ranks speak for themselves.

Even then, maybe convincing an evil monster to not outright attack them would be plausible, convincing it to join their party is just rather ridiculous.

That aside, I actually had a point to this post. As it so happened... the same thing happened to a party I was in as well. I mean... literally.
There was a Gauth, a nat 20 on a diplomacy or some such role was made, then it joined the group. I wasn't there, else I would have tried putting a stop to that nonsense. I don't remember just what happened to it, all I know it was 'removed' shortly before my side of the quest joined up with their side as the DM though that having a mini-beholder as a pet would make the party too over powered.

To be fair, he said the result was a 34 after the Nat. 20 and that the party had reasonable arguments and the Gauth really did have many valid reasons to joing the party. Assuming all of that is true, it is not as unreasonable as you suggested.

[Serpentine]

Y'know, it's probably too late now, but full-grown illithids are actually two creatures - the illithid itself, and its host, usually a human. A reincarnated illithid shouldn't have the host, so your guath by all rights should've been a little larvae thingy... And also guaths are baby beholders, so it should really have been a baby illithid, definitely a larva.
There are lots of things you can do about this, though. For example, you could've used the normal reincarnation tables, or at least had a chance to use them instead of the aberration ones. Or maybe it starts to resent the party for getting it killed and turned into something else.

[Geigan]

Ah player favorite NPCs. They're funny as they tend to come about the exact opposite way of a DMPC. Instead of the DM forcing a character into their midst because he thinks the character is awesome, the player's pick em up and bring em along because they think they're awesome. I always find it hilarious because every campaign I've been in has had one or the other like some sort of weird universal law of my group's games.

IMO I don't think you have to worry too much beyond your encounter design. Just think of it like another PC that's even easier to deal with as you can design the encounters to directly counter them most of the time and no one in particular will be offended. Of course you still want to have him be useful enough to not be dead weight, but he should be fairly easy to keep in check with enough thought. Unless of course there's a big power gap here which could very well be the case with a mindflayer. What's party composition look like? Also, what exactly can this NPC do beyond being a mindflayer? If you could elaborate on differences in power that would help.

Not to say that this doesn't open up interesting RP opportunities. As was mentioned, the drama of a friend slowly turning hostile due to the nature of a mindflayer taking over could be a great bit of tragedy for the campaign and could be memorable no matter how the PCs choose to deal with it.

[Serpentine]

Instead of the DM forcing a character into their midst because he thinks the character is awesome:sigh:
DMPCs do not always work that way, and I'm getting really sick and tired of getting this sort of statement thrown around as though it's a simple fact of reality. See also: the other entire thread going on about this subject right now.

[satorian]

Reincarnation time would have been a good place for DM fiat... perhaps a well known immortal human-looking race would've been nice for an aberration?

[Drachasor]

Its not that i dislike the character its that they are using him to essentially cheat. Aka the challenges designed weren't meant for their to be a super stun happy gauth, and now they are using the mind flayer as a quick and easy means to detect the sneaky undead things that were infiltrating the city.



the nat 20 on the diplomacy was an auto success they just did a very good job of roleplaying the initial start up of the encounter and had him convinced then they hammered it shut with a 34 diplomacy check.

I posted this not as a <arg pull hair this sucks> but as a slightly humored (wow cant believe my players became attached to the monster) on a side note. Why would any one trust an Illithid to stand watch ?

Ahh, I gotcha. I had missed this post. Well, I propose that you ask the players if they actually like this guy as an NPC or just like the abilities he brings to the table. Tell them honestly that he's just too powerful, but if they like HIM/HER/IT, then the NPC can stick around in a significantly diminished form.

If it is just a walking ability warehouse to them, then killing it shouldn't pose any problems. Have the mind flayer start to crave brains (as it should).

[SowZ]

:sigh:
DMPCs do not always work that way, and I'm getting really sick and tired of getting this sort of statement thrown around as though it's a simple fact of reality. See also: the other entire thread going on about this subject right now.

Sure, but that still doesn't mean this thing is a DMPC, (which by the majority of definitions, it isn't.)

[lyko555]

What's party composition look like? Also, what exactly can this NPC do beyond being a mindflayer? If you could elaborate on differences in power that would help.



The party is lvl 7 its composed of a dwarven fighter, human wizard, archivist and a newly reincarnated gnome (ranger/rogue). There is no optimization with this party despite the fact that i encourage it.

For the most part he shouldn't over balance any of the encounters because they are going to be fighting a lot of undead and constructs. in the last session they mainly used his newfound abilities to find undead via their immunity to detect thoughts and they like the idea of using him as an psychic phone.

Its when it comes to fighting anything none undead or construct that he actually makes a big difference. because anything lvl appropriate to the party that can be mentally manipulated only has a 50% chance of not becoming a slave.

[Serpentine]

Sure, but that still doesn't mean this thing is a DMPC, (which by the majority of definitions, it isn't.)Sure. I wouldn't particularly consider this creature a DMPC, at least not at this point. But my point still stands.
For the most part he shouldn't over balance any of the encounters because they are going to be fighting a lot of undead and constructs. in the last session they mainly used his newfound abilities to find undead via their immunity to detect thoughts and they like the idea of using him as an psychic phone.Um... Unless these undead are things that look like non-undead and you're using the illithid to distinguish between normal people and undead people they can see, detect thoughts doesn't work that way, iirc. If it's immune to detect thoughts, the caster just can't detect their thoughts. It doesn't mean they know there's thoughts they can't detect.

[Drachasor]

This seems easy enough.

He/she/it starts hungering for brains.

If they like the NPC as a character, they find Sepia Snake Sigil somewhere during all this ruckus, luckily with enough ingredients to cast the spell a couple times (or more). They can now put him in suspended animation until they can turn him into something else (plot hook). Greg agrees to this because he doesn't want to eat people's brains either -- ewww! So with a couple sigils, he can read another when he comes up and essentially no time passes for him for a couple weeks or more.

If they don't like him as a character, then he hungers for brains and goes rogue, leaving the party and enjoying his new awesome powers for EVIL! (dum dum duuuum!)

So talk to your players and figure out if they just like handy powers or if they like the character.

[DeAnno]

The party is lvl 7 its composed of a dwarven fighter, human wizard, archivist and a newly reincarnated gnome (ranger/rogue). There is no optimization with this party despite the fact that i encourage it.

This doesn't sound too bad at all. The Mind Flayer is only CR 8, and without the Psion casting from XPH is not really a dominating CR 8. This sounds like the party is more interested in optimizing their pet than themselves, and that seems like a perfectly valid decision if that's what they want to do.

It seems like a lot of its usefulness is in the form of its utility SLAs, and the only real combat feature I can see it bringing to play is Mind Blast, which lots of things are immune to and more things will be immune to as time goes on.

My group enslaved a Solar once, but we didn't treat it nearly as nicely as your group is treating your pet Mind Flayer (I think we threw it a Resistance Vest and maybe a couple other cheap pieces of gear, and used its casting mostly for buffs.)

[Geigan]

Anything special about the mindflayer beyond being a mindflayer? It's mind blasts are pretty devastating if they can come into play, but it's pretty much like any other battlefield controller albeit a little more one trick pony. How do you lock down the other casters typically? Same measures should apply unless the NPC is more effective than they are typically.

Grapplers to foul up being able to activate the SpL, surprise attacks might target him first in an attempt to stop him before he stuns them all, surround him so he can't activate it without AoOs, dispel magic counterspellers might work but that's a bit iffy ruleswise so your choice, etc. Also note that the mind blast says anyone caught in it so he still has to beware of friendly fire.

Magic items, class levels, or anything else we don't know about? You said they were giving him loot so there might be more things you have to worry about.

Also about the detect thoughts radar

Unless these undead are things that look like non-undead and you're using the illithid to distinguish between normal people and undead people they can see, detect thoughts doesn't work that way, iirc. If it's immune to detect thoughts, the caster just can't detect their thoughts. It doesn't mean they know there's thoughts they can't detect.Pretty much this yeah^

As for unrelated DMPC definition discussionI apologize if I offended with my loose definition of the term DMPC. I didn't mean to make it sound like I was speaking "as though it's a simple fact of reality." The first paragraph of my previous post had little to do with my actual points about this character and was more of a tangent about my experience with similar characters. I don't care to argue about whether this is or isn't a DMPC as I believe it to be irrelevant so I would rather drop the discussion here to avoid a thread derail.

[TheMac04]

I dunno what you're complaining about. Your players are obviously having a damn good time.

[Drachasor]

Hmm, yeah, looking over the stats, they don't seem bad at all. Though Detect Thoughts and Plane Shift at will might get annoying. Charm Monster and Suggestion certainly aren't "mind slave" powers.

Edit: I think the Gauth is cooler though, and definitely less problematic if that is what worries you -- though given the save DCs I don't see how any of that was a problem.

[NNescio]

Grapplers to foul up being able to activate the SpL, surprise attacks might target him first in an attempt to stop him before he stuns them all, surround him so he can't activate it without AoOs, dispel magic counterspellers might work but that's a bit iffy ruleswise so your choice, etc. Also note that the mind blast says anyone caught in it so he still has to beware of friendly fire. ]

Grappling a Mindflayer is a bad idea. BAAAAAD IDEA.

Also, you can't counterspell (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060613a) Psionics. Psionic-magic transparency does not extend that far. Note also that the counterspell option is also conspicuously absent from Dispel Psionics. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dispelPsionics.htm)

[Geigan]

Grappling a Mindflayer is a bad idea. BAAAAAD IDEA.

Also, you can't counterspell (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060613a) Psionics. Psionic-magic transparency does not extend that far. Note also that the counterspell option is also conspicuously absent from Dispel Psionics. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dispelPsionics.htm)

Oh right, though to be fair the bigger monsters would laugh at a typical mindflayer's grapple mod so extract might not be too worrisome in that case. As for the dispel thing, that depends on which mindflayer he's using, as the MM one is all spell-like abilities so as I said it's up to him as to whether it's a viable tactic or not. Now that I think about it though, it's not really that great anyway since the counterspellers could theoretically be stopped by the wizard or archivist with ease unless there are an F-ton of casters facing them which would make it rather silly for them to all counterspell. They could honestly just save-or-suck him to keep him busy. Bands of steel from SpC would be a wonderful choice in that regard.

[DeAnno]

About Counterspelling SLAs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities):


Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

Pretty definitive, Mind Blast can't be counterspelled.

[Geigan]

But they can be dispelled which is where the argument comes from of whether that passage applies to dispel magic's version of counterspell. I don't care which side of the argument is right but I have seen the argument which is why I labeled the tactic as iffy ruleswise. Anyway it's not really important since it's not a particlularly great tactic anyway.

[DeAnno]

Dispelling isn't the same as counterspelling. Dispelling is removing a spell effect with a duration that is already in play, and counterspelling is preventing an effect from entering play. Dispel Magic can be used to counterspell, but counterspelling is its own separate thing.

For example, one could ready an action to counterspell a wizard casting Solid Fog, or let them cast it, and wait to Dispel the Solid Fog on their own next turn.

[Saintheart]

I just think the fact they named the Gauth "Greg" is awesome.


...I'm done. :smallbiggrin:

[Killer Angel]

Have the mind flayer start to crave brains (as it should).

Pretty much. If not the brains of its "companions", then the ones of other creatures. Very soon, everybody (including some organization) will come to kill the monster and its friends.
Let's see how the group will like this.

[Serpentine]

Man. I wish that webcomic Mind Flayed was still going so there'd be enough there to make it worth linking to.
Ah Hell, I'll do it anyway (http://mindflayed.0nyx.com/comic001.html).