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Edge of Dreams
2011-08-29, 01:36 AM
I just had a crazy idea about a sword-wielding warrior in a wild west setting. Have you ever come across this particular kind of genre-crossover in a game or other media? Is there any game system that would support this idea well?

Conners
2011-08-29, 02:20 AM
Sure, DnD. Everyone has so much HP, with a couple of levels and some CON, that your fighters could said through bullets and cut people to bits with Great Cleave.

There's bound to be some sourcebook or homebrewed rules for wild-west guns, by now.

Ravens_cry
2011-08-29, 02:23 AM
Sure, it's called the DMG. If you are willing to use Pathfinder, Ultimate Combat added a whole bunch o' guns and it's in the PF SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/firearms) now.

Kaun
2011-08-29, 02:27 AM
It hapens in deadlands a bit.

Eastern immigrants who stick to the old ways or cavelry men who have a fondness for their old saber.

It doesnt mean you can charge across a battle feild with sword in hand and not get shot up but an indian brave with a tomahawk up close will put the hurt on ya faster then any 6 gun.

Morph Bark
2011-08-29, 02:54 AM
Sadly in DnD the Deflect Arrows feat requires use of a hand in which you aren't wielding anything. As written, you can deflect bullets with it.

Switch Improved Unarmed Strike proficiency for Weapon Focus (any) for prerequisites to do so with a weapon of that kind. CUT BULLETS.

You will be the man who outsmarted bullet.

flumphy
2011-08-29, 04:10 AM
The anime Gun Sword sort of does this. As for the best system to handle it, I guess that depends on whether you actually want swords to be balanced with guns. For a cinematic game where Mr. Swordsman has a fair chance, I'm thinking M&M would handle it well.

Alternatively, I know there's a system based on Highlander. I've never actually looked at it, but that sounds like it may work for the concept.

Anarchy_Kanya
2011-08-29, 04:24 AM
The Warrior's Way?

Hazzardevil
2011-08-29, 04:25 AM
The anime Gun Sword sort of does this. As for the best system to handle it, I guess that depends on whether you actually want swords to be balanced with guns. For a cinematic game where Mr. Swordsman has a fair chance, I'm thinking M&M would handle it well.

The problem with guns in dnd is that it's hard to balance them with swords. I dislike some of what pathfinder has done with guns.
You eventually get into the problem of guns have such a long range you have to kill someone before they get too close, but at the same time make sure the guy with a sword has a chance of getting there first.

Prime32
2011-08-29, 04:32 AM
I just had a crazy idea about a sword-wielding warrior in a wild west setting. Have you ever come across this particular kind of genre-crossover in a game or other media? Is there any game system that would support this idea well?I have seen one such crossover (http://www.google.ie/#hl=en&q=Jack+Churchill)

Conners
2011-08-29, 07:39 AM
I have seen one such crossover (http://www.google.ie/#hl=en&q=Jack+Churchill) Holy.... this guy is the IRL version of Kamina!!

Wyntonian
2011-08-29, 10:07 AM
Wait.... I have an idea..... What if we put samurai alongside cowboys and outlaws.... in space..... AWWWW YEAHHHH!!!!!! I'd play the hell out of that game.

In case you didn't know, that's the premise that first got Lucas started on Star Wars. "Well, I like samurai movies, westerns and sci-fi. Waaaaaaiiiit a minute....."

Conners
2011-08-29, 10:36 AM
.....That sounds a LOT like Firefly, a tv series. They made a movie of it called Serenity.... also made a RPG game of it called Serenity. I recommend all three things.

Mikeavelli
2011-08-29, 11:49 AM
I have seen another such swordfight. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DzcOCyHDqc)

Greenish
2011-08-29, 12:01 PM
Kurosawa's Yojimbo had guns and swords, and the remake was set in wild west (but lacked swords).

Nerd-o-rama
2011-08-29, 12:45 PM
Wait.... I have an idea..... What if we put samurai alongside cowboys and outlaws.... in space..... AWWWW YEAHHHH!!!!!! I'd play the hell out of that game.

In case you didn't know, that's the premise that first got Lucas started on Star Wars. "Well, I like samurai movies, westerns and sci-fi. Waaaaaaiiiit a minute....."


.....That sounds a LOT like Firefly, a tv series. They made a movie of it called Serenity.... also made a RPG game of it called Serenity. I recommend all three things.

Also sounds a lot like Cowboy Bebop when phrased that way. Then again Firefly was pretty much Live Action American Bebop with a more dignified Space Hooker.

Morph Bark
2011-08-29, 02:03 PM
This (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0906665/). Oh so very much.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-08-29, 02:12 PM
Wait.... I have an idea..... What if we put samurai alongside cowboys and outlaws.... in space..... AWWWW YEAHHHH!!!!!! I'd play the hell out of that game.

In case you didn't know, that's the premise that first got Lucas started on Star Wars. "Well, I like samurai movies, westerns and sci-fi. Waaaaaaiiiit a minute....."

I was gonna say that's Star Wars until I saw the white text. Basically, the thing the OP's talking about would be Star Wars in renaissance/industrial period.

dsmiles
2011-08-29, 06:16 PM
Alternate suggestion:

Pray for a Malifaux RPG.

Knaight
2011-08-29, 07:47 PM
Far West (http://www.adamantentertainment.com/2011/07/12/far-west-kickstarter/) does exactly this:

"The FAR WEST Adventure Game is a tabletop RPG featuring blazing sixguns, over-the-top kung fu action and far-out steampunk inventions, where you and your friends can create the adventures of warriors who wander the Dust Road — fighting for their clans, their cause, the oppressed, or their own interests in an endless frontier that lies beyond the confines of civilization."

In short, Western meets Wuxia.

Acero
2011-08-29, 08:15 PM
Its in progress.
Far West Baby (http://io9.com/5830991/kung+fu-gunslingers-are-looking-for-action-in-far-west-)

Cowboy and Samurai blend well, both being lone travelers.

Warrior's Way was also a good cobination of the two genres. The higly trained warriors could kill a whole lot of baddies, but they weren't bulletproof.

EDIT: Swordsages...

Knaight
2011-08-29, 08:34 PM
Its in progress.
Far West Baby (http://io9.com/5830991/kung+fu-gunslingers-are-looking-for-action-in-far-west-)

Cowboy and Samurai blend well, both being lone travelers.

Warrior's Way was also a good cobination of the two genres. The higly trained warriors could kill a whole lot of baddies, but they weren't bulletproof.

EDIT: Swordsages...

Eh, you used a different link anyways. On a side note, its not a matter of Samurai, its clearly far more influenced by China than Japan. What, with the Wuxia genre being distinctly Chinese. Also for that matter, Samurai are very connected to a larger feudal structure, and don't fit the "lone traveler" description very well, except for when they have been sent to do something.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-08-29, 09:07 PM
Far West (http://www.adamantentertainment.com/2011/07/12/far-west-kickstarter/) does exactly this:

"The FAR WEST Adventure Game is a tabletop RPG featuring blazing sixguns, over-the-top kung fu action and far-out steampunk inventions, where you and your friends can create the adventures of warriors who wander the Dust Road — fighting for their clans, their cause, the oppressed, or their own interests in an endless frontier that lies beyond the confines of civilization."

In short, Western meets Wuxia.


Its in progress.
Far West Baby (http://io9.com/5830991/kung+fu-gunslingers-are-looking-for-action-in-far-west-)

Cowboy and Samurai blend well, both being lone travelers.

That looks awesome! :smallcool:

Pathfinder has the Gunslinger base class, in Ultimate Combat and on the SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger). Guns and ammunition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/firearms) (ammunitions is expensive, but Gunslingers and anyone who takes the Gunsmithing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/gunsmithing) feat can craft it for only 1/10 of the cost).

Ason
2011-08-29, 09:17 PM
The Wii game "Red Steel 2" also does this, I believe. I haven't played the game personally, but I recall it featured a man dressed in cowboy attire wielding a katana and a pistol.

Conners
2011-08-30, 01:51 AM
Yep. Its cowboys with motorcycles and swords, in Red Steel 2. Pretty cool concept, and fun to play.

Dr.Epic
2011-08-30, 05:10 AM
Swords in the wild west? What's next? A campaign devoted to cowboys and aliens? Actually, that sounds pretty badass! We should get Harrison Ford and Daniel Craig to do it.:smallwink::smallbiggrin:

Morph Bark
2011-08-30, 07:27 AM
Swords in the wild west? What's next? A campaign devoted to cowboys and aliens? Actually, that sounds pretty badass! We should get Harrison Ford and Daniel Craig to do it.:smallwink::smallbiggrin:

It wasn't until this post that I realized the irony in casting Harrison Ford in a movie where he fights with a gun against aliens.

Dr.Epic
2011-08-30, 12:58 PM
It wasn't until this post that I realized the irony in casting Harrison Ford in a movie where he fights with a gun against aliens.

At least he shot first in this film.:smallwink:

Zonugal
2011-08-30, 05:15 PM
I just had a crazy idea about a sword-wielding warrior in a wild west setting. Have you ever come across this particular kind of genre-crossover in a game or other media? Is there any game system that would support this idea well?

You really need to watch Sukiyaki Western Django, it is pretty much this concept taken up to 11.

Just check out some of the images from it:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e7/SUKIYAKI_WESTERN_DJANGOposter-200.jpg

http://www.lovehkfilm.com/panasia/aj6293/sukiyaki_western_django.jpg

Morph Bark
2011-08-30, 05:38 PM
You really need to watch Sukiyaki Western Django, it is pretty much this concept taken up to 11.

Just check out some of the images from it:

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/sukiyaki_western_django.jpg

http://www.lovehkfilm.com/panasia/aj6293/sukiyaki_western_django.jpg

Ninja'd by 12 posts, but the images explain it lots better. Something about a thousand words... :smalltongue:

Also, first pic does not work.

SowZ
2011-08-30, 05:38 PM
This is pretty common, especially in Anime conventions where the Wild West is considered pretty cool but crossed over with traditional Japan.

Seb Wiers
2011-08-30, 06:10 PM
Just cause your ot using guns, don;t mean you need swords. "Deadwood" had rather few gunfights, and plenty of folks getting killed.
Want a duel between champions? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blki-DISUis

Acero
2011-08-30, 10:44 PM
Samurai are very connected to a larger feudal structure, and don't fit the "lone traveler" description very well, except for when they have been sent to do something.

I had Samurai Jack in mind, my bad.

Zonugal
2011-08-31, 12:16 AM
I had Samurai Jack in mind, my bad.

Who acts more like a Ronin than anything, but hey whatever...

TheThan
2011-08-31, 01:05 AM
I can think of a couple (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067770/) such films (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112924/).


There’s also the animes Trigun and cowboy bebop. Which while light on the swordplay has plenty of guns and a very cowboy attitude, not to mention a bit of a sci-fi lean.

Conners
2011-08-31, 04:18 AM
Just cause your ot using guns, don;t mean you need swords. "Deadwood" had rather few gunfights, and plenty of folks getting killed.
Want a duel between champions? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blki-DISUis What the heck? That was totally revolting.... Shame on you for posting this kind of tripe here.

You might've been sarcastic when referring to this as a, "fight between champions". Any ten year old kid can throw his fist around and hug the other person hoping to win.


Speaking of gritty (stupidly so) combat, it is also a question of how realistic or gritty the OP wants the system to be. As I say, DnD could work if you don't mind people who can get shot fifty times before dying.

Eric Tolle
2011-08-31, 04:52 AM
This is pretty common, especially in Anime conventions where the Wild West is considered pretty cool but crossed over with traditional Japan.

Remember, in anime, the United States consists of three parts: New York circa 1970s, San Francisco circa 1890, and herren them, the western desert, circa whenever the Man with No Name films were set.

China on the other hand has it's own wild west, in the form of the Gobi Desert. Based on the films I've seen, you can easily fit most Westerns in there, and toss in some evil eunichs in as well.

Machinekng
2011-08-31, 07:09 PM
Wait.... I have an idea..... What if we put samurai alongside cowboys and outlaws.... in space..... AWWWW YEAHHHH!!!!!! I'd play the hell out of that game.

In case you didn't know, that's the premise that first got Lucas started on Star Wars. "Well, I like samurai movies, westerns and sci-fi. Waaaaaaiiiit a minute....."

Well, I am running a PbP Spelljammer campaign with firearm rules

IN SPACE

You guys should check it out once it gets running.

Greenish
2011-08-31, 07:19 PM
Just cause your ot using guns, don;t mean you need swords.Just because you can kill people without them doesn't mean guns and swords aren't cool. Or handy, for that matter.

Conners
2011-08-31, 07:28 PM
Heck, there was a guy during World War 2 who was using a sword... and a longbow. (http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=jack+churchill)

Swords can really mess up guys with guns, providing you use them well (IE, at close range, not with the gun pointing directly at you). Requires a lot of skill and speed of course, or they will just back-pedal then shoot you.

Dr.Epic
2011-08-31, 07:43 PM
Heck, there was a guy during World War 2 who was using a sword... and a longbow. (http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=jack+churchill)

Well, there was also a guy using a shield during WWII so this isn't too odd.

http://captain-america.us/images/cap.gif

Greenish
2011-08-31, 07:45 PM
Swords can really mess up guys with guns, providing you use them well (IE, at close range, not with the gun pointing directly at you). Requires a lot of skill and speed of course, or they will just back-pedal then shoot you.Reminds me of this anecdote (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWvsHorqldM).

Conners
2011-08-31, 08:26 PM
I've actually seen that video before! A bit easier to do against muskets than handguns (of course, muskets can be used to parry), of course. but yeah, that's pretty much the idea (if they're worried about hitting their buddies, and you keep moving about).

Zadhadras
2011-09-01, 09:45 AM
There is a British Officer in ww2 named George Cairns who was fighting the Japanese in Burma. During one of his fights a Japanese officer cut his arm off with a saber.

Bad move. Instead of killing Cairns, it just really really pissed him off.

He immediately killed the Japanese soldier who lopped off his arm, grabbed his saber, then charged the Japanese by himself. During the assault he killed several more japanese soldiers with his captured sword, and his men, inspired followed him up the hill and the japanese fled in terror. He he later died but only because he ran out of blood.

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-01, 09:47 AM
Depending on the period, there are going to be several union or confederate cavalrymen and officers running around with their cavalry sabres, so while knife fights would be a lot more common, it's not completely out of the question.

Gavinfoxx
2011-09-01, 12:09 PM
There WERE swords in the Wild West. Haven't you ever heard of Cavalry Sabers??

Conners
2011-09-01, 12:25 PM
Gavin, you just got Ninja'd.

Gavinfoxx
2011-09-01, 12:32 PM
'swhat I get for not reading the latest post and just posting from the OP...

Coidzor
2011-09-01, 04:13 PM
Wild Arms's sound track (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msS0M8ylIAM)might even be appropriate in that kind of situation.

randomhero00
2011-09-01, 04:52 PM
Anyone proficient in the blade, within 20 feet of an opponent, can cut them down quicker than they can aim and fire (unless the gunman is some pro quickfire artist). With very little training, I can draw a blade and attack someone within 20 feet within 9/10ths of a second. I've tested this multiple times.

Not only that but that is also the general rule of the thumb modern day police use (the distance). So this isn't out of average.

In other words, considering many duels happened at 10 paces (I think?) a swordsman could definitely have a chance to defeat a gunman.

edit: its also easier to dodge the old guns more than many would think. You of course aren't dodging the actual bullet but dodging where you perceive the gunman to be aiming. This is similar to baseball and hitting a 90mph fastball. Both take effect faster than the eye can see, yet people (in baseball) do this all the time. Of course the bullet is faster than a baseball but reading the gunman's movements is the same speed as reading a pitchers'. Just a lot less chance for error....

Connington
2011-09-01, 05:44 PM
Anyone proficient in the blade, within 20 feet of an opponent, can cut them down quicker than they can aim and fire (unless the gunman is some pro quickfire artist). With very little training, I can draw a blade and attack someone within 20 feet within 9/10ths of a second. I've tested this multiple times.

Not only that but that is also the general rule of the thumb modern day police use (the distance). So this isn't out of average.

That's a misrepresentation of modern doctrine. The guideline is that a man with a blade can close twenty one feet (some estimates bump this up to thirty) faster than a police officer with a holstered pistol can recognize the threat, draw his pistol, and hastily fire twice at center mass.

I don't think anyone's ever properly tested that guideline with a full-sized sword, but the important thing is that it only holds true if the man with the blade starts with his weapon in hand and attacks first, and the man with the gun starts with a holstered weapon.

EDIT: Oh, and of course, the man with the sword has to work very fast to kill or disarm the man with the gun before he can squeeze off a shot. Again, the twenty-one foot guideline is about when a police officer is at serious risk, not when the swordsman can reliably win a fight. Killing someone with a sharp piece of metal isn't hard, but killing them fast enough that they can't shoot you is very difficult and very risky.

Seb Wiers
2011-09-01, 06:02 PM
What the heck? That was totally revolting.... Shame on you for posting this kind of tripe here.

You might've been sarcastic when referring to this as a, "fight between champions". Any ten year old kid can throw his fist around and hug the other person hoping to win.

Not sarcastic. I suspect you never watched the show, or else watched it with an eye that couldn't see past the gore, whores, mud, and death to appreciate the epic tail being played out on a small dirty stage.
I used the word "champion" in the sense of men representing a large force in token combat, though both were in fact skilled (if "dirty") fighters.

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-01, 06:06 PM
Anyone proficient in the blade, within 20 feet of an opponent, can cut them down quicker than they can aim and fire (unless the gunman is some pro quickfire artist). With very little training, I can draw a blade and attack someone within 20 feet within 9/10ths of a second. I've tested this multiple times.

Oooh ooh ooh!

Can you also bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash?

Because that would be the icing on the cake.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-09-01, 06:27 PM
Anyone proficient in the blade, within 20 feet of an opponent, can cut them down quicker than they can aim and fire (unless the gunman is some pro quickfire artist). With very little training, I can draw a blade and attack someone within 20 feet within 9/10ths of a second. I've tested this multiple times.

Are you good at basketball, soccer, or some other sport where you move a lot?

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-01, 06:29 PM
Are you good at basketball, soccer, or some other sport where you move a lot?

He wouldn't have to be. 20 feet is a much shorter distance than you'd expect. All he'd need is good enough coordination to draw, charge, and attack.

Seb Wiers
2011-09-01, 06:44 PM
He wouldn't have to be. 20 feet is a much shorter distance than you'd expect. All he'd need is good enough coordination to draw, charge, and attack.

To move 20 feet in .9 seconds, staring from a standstill, you'd have to accelerate through the whole distance at more than 1g. That's actually quite athletic, and assumes you can keep accelerating right up to the point where you attack (IE, attack at a full run).

Zadhadras
2011-09-01, 08:21 PM
Here is a summary of the research conducted at the Force Science Research Center at the University of Minnesota reveals the following

"Once he perceives a signal to do so, the AVERAGE officer requires 1.5 seconds to draw from a snapped Level II holster and fire one unsighted round at center mass. Add 1/4 of a second for firing a second round, and another 1/10 of a second for obtaining a flash sight picture for the average officer.

The fastest officer tested required 1.31 seconds to draw from a Level II holster and get off his first unsighted round.The slowest officer tested required 2.25 seconds.

For the average officer to draw and fire an unsighted round from a snapped Level III holster, which is becoming increasingly popular in LE because of its extra security features, takes 1.7 seconds.

Meanwhile, the AVERAGE suspect with an edged weapon raised in the traditional "ice-pick" position can go from a dead stop to level, unobstructed surface offering good traction in 1.5-1.7 seconds.

The "fastest, most skillful, most powerful" subject FSRC tested "easily" covered that distance in 1.27 seconds. Intense rage, high agitation and/or the influence of stimulants may even shorten that time, Lewinski observes.

Even the slowest subject "lumbered" through this distance in just 2.5 seconds.

Bottom line: Within a 21-foot perimeter, most officers dealing with most edged-weapon suspects are at a decided - perhaps fatal - disadvantage if the suspect launches a sudden charge intent on harming them."

Conners
2011-09-01, 09:53 PM
Not sarcastic. I suspect you never watched the show, or else watched it with an eye that couldn't see past the gore, whores, mud, and death to appreciate the epic tail being played out on a small dirty stage.
I used the word "champion" in the sense of men representing a large force in token combat, though both were in fact skilled (if "dirty") fighters. Yeah. The most skilled ten-year-olds I have ever seen wrestle :smallwink:.

I watch Game of Thrones, which is possibly more disgusting in gore and such.... but then: The eye thing seemed totally unrealistic ("Let's have him pull his eye out!" "What? How would he do that?" "I don't care! There hasn't been enough gore in this fight yet!!"), the fight was utterly boring ("Wow! They are rolling in the mud! look at them roll!" "Crawl, Deadwood, crawl!!" "That crawling is SO AWESOME!!"), and aside from the eye thing... it was like two idiots trying to murder each other. I mean, seriously, who wants to ACTUALLY see two stupid people try and kill each other? You'd need to be pretty sick... even the Romans trained their gladiators to put up a good fight...



@Zahadras: Good stuff! One thing people also need to consider, is that when the knife-guy reaches you... it's quite likely to grab you so you can't aim your gun at him. In that case, you're pretty well dead.

At the same time, it is possible to back-pedal fairly quickly when you need to. I'm not sure whether the officers can do this while drawing their pistol, or whether they just aren't trained to do it, or are too surprised--it would be a good thing to consider, though.

Honestly, if you have a gunman and a swordsman at twenty feet, with both of them ready to fight? The gunman will get off a few shots before the sword-fellow can get in range. Sword-boy might survive long enough to kill gunman, of course.... but that doesn't mean much.
Either way, swords really depend on three things: Surprise, speed, and tactical/skilful ingenuity. Remember that if you put an enemy between you and his friends, they can't shoot through their pal, normally (he acts like a shield).

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-01, 11:26 PM
To move 20 feet in .9 seconds, staring from a standstill, you'd have to accelerate through the whole distance at more than 1g. That's actually quite athletic, and assumes you can keep accelerating right up to the point where you attack (IE, attack at a full run).

Oh, that's very true, but it's also quite dependent on his height. Were he at 6 foot plus, he has both a reach and pace advantage that cuts down the time required to cross 20 feet in .9 seconds.

Skeletor
2011-09-01, 11:41 PM
I'm surprised no one even mentioned Zorro, it is set in perhaps what most consider to be 'pre wild west' but it's pretty close and the sword is considered an honorable weapons but people still use one shot pistols and the like.

Conners
2011-09-01, 11:59 PM
"One-Shot" is a big point there. If you can get your opponent to shoot early, there's a good chance they'll miss. In the wild west, however, six shooters means there's little chance to dodge.

Zadhadras
2011-09-02, 01:44 PM
One thing to consider is psychology. Humans aren't machines...when someone is running at you at high speed with a bladed weapon you will feel a fear response. This response will adversely affect fine motor skills, and shooting accurately with a pistol is a fine motor skill.

deuxhero
2011-09-02, 01:46 PM
I just had a crazy idea about a sword-wielding warrior in a wild west setting. Have you ever come across this particular kind of genre-crossover in a game or other media?

Yes! In a documentary no less! Apparently at least one set of Chinese gangs fought eachother this way.

Conners
2011-09-02, 07:03 PM
One thing to consider is psychology. Humans aren't machines...when someone is running at you at high speed with a bladed weapon you will feel a fear response. This response will adversely affect fine motor skills, and shooting accurately with a pistol is a fine motor skill. Still a question of whether someone who has killed dozens and risked death fifty times, will be worried (IE: A true veteran). Mostly, if you aren't already on them and they aren't scared--you're probably done for.

Luckily, you don't get a lot of veterans, you get more scared people.

dps
2011-09-02, 09:00 PM
I can think of a couple (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067770/) such films (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112924/).


I hadn't seen that first one in a long time. I do remember liking it, but I don't remember if there was actually much swordfighting in it, though a stolen ceremonial sword was the McGuffin.

In broad outline, Shanghai Noon was a spoof of it.

Autolykos
2011-09-06, 04:31 AM
I'm surprised nobody said this yet, but GURPS supports pretty much anything well if you pick the right optional rules. Taken as-is, with the recommended ruleset (which is optimized for a mix of realism and ease-of-use) guns are way too deadly for swords to be a viable choice in anything except CQB. There are, however, a lot of optional cinematic rules in Martial Arts that can massively shift the balance. And then there's the infamous "Imperial Stromtrooper Marksmanship Academy"-Rule and its variations; I'd recommend the form that all shots fired in the first round (a round in GURPS is one second, so that's not very much) on anyone without a (readied) ranged weapon always miss.

Prime32
2011-09-06, 09:26 AM
Just spotted:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SamuraiCowboy

paddyfool
2011-09-07, 09:52 AM
Yep, if you're close enough, someone trained can draw and slash faster than they can draw, release the safety, aim and shoot. Making knives at least still have a definite role (swords are a bit too obvious, however, for this to generally work). Of course, you'd better hope you take them straight out of the fight when you slash them, because otherwise you're probably still going to get shot (vs a handgun, at least, if not a rifle).

Neon Knight
2011-09-07, 04:22 PM
Yep, if you're close enough, someone trained can draw and slash faster than they can draw, release the safety, aim and shoot. Making knives at least still have a definite role (swords are a bit too obvious, however, for this to generally work). Of course, you'd better hope you take them straight out of the fight when you slash them, because otherwise you're probably still going to get shot (vs a handgun, at least, if not a rifle).

Errr... maybe (maybe) with a semi-auto pistol, but we're talking the old West here. Gun safety was primitive and not always followed, and even so, with a single action revolver, all that needs to be done to ready the weapon to fire is cocking the hammer, which can be done with the thumb during the draw. I bet any modern competition shooter with a single action can best a knifeman in a quick draw, and with this style of shooting, you don't really aim; you point, and if he's really close enough to stab you with a knife, you'll probably hit him. And you can empty all your cylinders before he can get another cut in.

Conners
2011-09-07, 07:43 PM
Drawing a gun is usually trickier than drawing a knife. Mainly, you need to twist the nozzle upwards after pulling it clear of the holster. This means someone quick at drawing their knife will be quicker than a skilled quickdraw.

Notably, the knife-person seems to need at least some elements of surprise to succeed. If they can get close enough, they could probably fob up the quick-draw's attempts to shoot, as they stab him.

Neon Knight
2011-09-07, 08:20 PM
Drawing a gun is usually trickier than drawing a knife. Mainly, you need to twist the nozzle upwards after pulling it clear of the holster. This means someone quick at drawing their knife will be quicker than a skilled quickdraw.

Notably, the knife-person seems to need at least some elements of surprise to succeed. If they can get close enough, they could probably fob up the quick-draw's attempts to shoot, as they stab him.

Surprise trumps all other considerations, really. A shooter with surprise (which is how many Old West gunslingers actually operated) can slay an unaware knifeman just as easily. Any person, no matter how equipped, is usually easy to kill, or at least easier, when surprised. I'm not sure it's a meaningful assessment of knife capabilities. It's the stealth doing the work.

Conners
2011-09-07, 08:28 PM
Knives are the stealth-weapon. They've been used from the dawn of time by assassins, and still today are used to surprise policemen. Seeming unarmed can be a very powerful element to surprising others.

Neon Knight
2011-09-07, 09:23 PM
Knives are the stealth-weapon. They've been used from the dawn of time by assassins, and still today are used to surprise policemen. Seeming unarmed can be a very powerful element to surprising others.

That's not unique to knives, though. Pistols can be concealed as well. You can hide a lot of different kinds of weapon on your person.

druid91
2011-09-07, 09:26 PM
That's not unique to knives, though. Pistols can be concealed as well. You can hide a lot of different kinds of weapon on your person.

Problem is, once you fire that pistol people are going to know it was fired.

You stab someone and it isn't quite as noisy.

Conners
2011-09-07, 10:05 PM
Pistols also leave bullets, which help police to track would-be-assassins down.

Connington
2011-09-08, 02:56 AM
Pistols also leave bullets, which help police to track would-be-assassins down.

The number of old west style worlds with modern forensics is surprisingly low.

The basic problem here is that the range of situations where a blade is more practical than a knife is narrow, and mostly centered around activities that aren't fun to game out. You may want to play someone who bushwhacks a solitary enemy and then stabs him before a real fight can begin, but that seems boring to me.

So don't bother justifying your old west swordfights with pseudo-realism. Better possibilities include:

-Set your game with old west themes in a setting that doesn't have guns. Nothing's stopping you from having stoic swordsmen, new frontiers, herds of cattle, blazing hot sun, etc. in an otherwise vaguely European medieval (or vaguely oriental) world.

-Make the swordsman special. Wuxia films are your best source of inspiration here. The swordsmen pull off complicated acrobatics that somehow keep the mooks from ever hitting them before they get hacked down. It's fun to narrate. The other cool thing about this is that you can have both your swordsmen and your gunslingers for double the awesome.

-Make the guns weak. I don't recommend this, but it's easy to do and always possible. Just handwave physics and say that swords hurt more than guns. Or you can only allow early wheel lock pistols and the like. That's realistic, but gets boring fast.

-Make bullets precious. Post apocalyptic settings are great for this. This one is tricky to work properly, but if you dole out just enough bullets to make guns workable but not reliable, you can get characters that have to be good with both a gun and sword.

Cespenar
2011-09-08, 04:14 AM
-Make bullets precious. Post apocalyptic settings are great for this. This one is tricky to work properly, but if you dole out just enough bullets to make guns workable but not reliable, you can get characters that have to be good with both a gun and sword.

This is a good solution to the problem, methinks. Verisimilitude, balance, dangerous guns, useful melee weapons, all in one.

Conners
2011-09-08, 06:16 AM
The number of old west style worlds with modern forensics is surprisingly low.

The basic problem here is that the range of situations where a blade is more practical than a knife is narrow, and mostly centered around activities that aren't fun to game out. You may want to play someone who bushwhacks a solitary enemy and then stabs him before a real fight can begin, but that seems boring to me.

So don't bother justifying your old west swordfights with pseudo-realism, if you want me to like them. Better possibilities include:

-Set your game with old west themes in a setting that doesn't have guns. Nothing's stopping you from having stoic swordsmen, new frontiers, herds of cattle, blazing hot sun, etc. in an otherwise vaguely European medieval (or vaguely oriental) world.

-Make the swordsman special. Wuxia films are your best source of inspiration here. The swordsmen pull off complicated acrobatics that somehow keep the mooks from ever hitting them before they get hacked down. It's fun to narrate. The other cool thing about this is that you can have both your swordsmen and your gunslingers for double the awesome.

-Make the guns weak. I don't recommend this, but it's easy to do and always possible. Just handwave physics and say that swords hurt more than guns. Or you can only allow early wheel lock pistols and the like. That's realistic, but gets boring fast.

-Make bullets precious. Post apocalyptic settings are great for this. This one is tricky to work properly, but if you dole out just enough bullets to make guns workable but not reliable, you can get characters that have to be good with both a gun and sword.Was talking about how knives still had applicable advantages even today.

....That seems like a pretty real fight. It wouldn't be much of a struggle, and would be a short encounter. But that's how things tend to go, if you do it the smart way (if you don't do it the smart way, you better hope you are invincible with thousands of HP... like in DnD).
Either way, that doesn't mean getting into the position where you suddenly stab the guy is easy.

Well, you don't seem to like realism (fixed your sentence for you). But, personally, I think it makes games more... well, real. Games where you have hundreds of HP, where you keep getting, "hit" by attacks that ought to kill any human--that breaks the immersion.

Or, just give them primitive guns... The medieval era has had guns for a LONG time. There were plenty of problems with the early guns and cannons, as well as the early gunpowder, however. In a late-medieval setting, you see more guns, and more armour capable of deflecting the bullets (this is against the rifles--the pistols would have no chance).

That would be one way of doing it.

Well, swords do hurt more than guns. Except... you don't need to hurt someone a lot to kill them. 3 bullets has something like a 90% chance of taking down a target, with modern weapons. That's why military weapons have "Burst" mode where three shots are fired when you pull the trigger.
On the other hand, it is possible to survive several bullets and be perfectly healthy (there are a few stories where people had been shot multiple times, then beat the heck out of the shooter). Whereas, with swords, the wounds tend to be more deadly, with more immediate results (assuming you use them right, and it isn't some rapier or dagger).
---------
Of course, aside from these points, there is another alternative: Kevlar. Have a setting where some people have kevlar armour - which is good against bullets but is easily cut through by knives/swords - then swordsmen with kevlar can deal with most guns fine. Big guns would be a bit different... and you can't really use kevlar on your head or limbs so well (at least I assume as much), so you aren't invulnerable.

You could also make guns prone to jamming, due to bad conditions. Depending on the setting, they might even break with too much use.

Connington
2011-09-08, 08:00 PM
Well, you don't seem to like realism (fixed your sentence for you). But, personally, I think it makes games more... well, real. Games where you have hundreds of HP, where you keep getting, "hit" by attacks that ought to kill any human--that breaks the immersion.

I love realism, and that's the problem. When the PCs bring swords to gunfights and consistently win, my poor suspension of disbelief gets traumatized. Two and half centuries of real life have made it clear that the best use for a melee weapon is to kill someone and take their gun. So I find it easier to abandon pretensions of realism and go unabashedly cinematic, or make guns not consistently available.

Conners
2011-09-08, 08:28 PM
Well, it's not as though blades have no use. They were using swords well into WWII, and bayonets were instrumental before that point. The problem is, provided a good working gun, they work pretty well at all ranges.
So, you need one of these reasons:

Magic-Swordsman.

Low on Ammo, as you mentioned.

Chance of Gun Jamming.

Enemy resistant or immune to bullets, due to armour or monstrous qualities.
Legends of the Galactic Heroes did this, with their Grenadiers--they wore armour that most lasers couldn't damage, and used big axes.

Being up close, so that even if you shoot them thrice, they may take your head off before they are fully dead.

Guns have a lot of disadvantages, like the early guns did.

You need to be stealthy, and go ninja on those bozos.

You're in a situation where being up close to the enemy is important. Maybe their guns are too powerful, and would pull holes in the space-ship. Maybe there's explosive gas in the room, and shooting will kill you all.
LotGH also did this. They would put explosive gas in places, so that the enemy couldn't shoot.

The morale effect. Having lots of guys barrelling down on the enemy position, is more likely to scare them than hugging cover and shooting for an hour.


Aside from that, there isn't a lot of reason. But then, I have named several applicable reasons.

paddyfool
2011-09-09, 06:48 AM
Errr... maybe (maybe) with a semi-auto pistol, but we're talking the old West here. Gun safety was primitive and not always followed, and even so, with a single action revolver, all that needs to be done to ready the weapon to fire is cocking the hammer, which can be done with the thumb during the draw. I bet any modern competition shooter with a single action can best a knifeman in a quick draw, and with this style of shooting, you don't really aim; you point, and if he's really close enough to stab you with a knife, you'll probably hit him. And you can empty all your cylinders before he can get another cut in.

You'll probably hit him if you're faster than him and you can get a clean draw, certainly. And another issue is that of palming or otherwise concealing a knife in one's hand - very easy to do, and something that reduces the time from draw and slash to grip-shift and slash.

Overall, defending yourself against a knifeman with a gun really isn't that simple. See this training video, for instance. (http://www.your-krav-maga-expert.com/gun-vs-knife.html) If both people are doing it right, the knifeman will be trying to get in close and stab/slash while trying to block the gunman's draw, while the gunman will be trying to block the knifeman's strike while he backpedals and shoots.

Now, all this emphasis on ambush combat may seem one-sided, but that's how lethal combat was generally fought in the old west, just as on the streets today. Naturally, if someone's foolish enough to wave around a blade at you at a distance, it's very easy to do an Indy. But that isn't generally how real-life combat happens.

How I'd model this in a fairly realistic RPG? Sneak-attack style systems reward the surprise attack on a flat-footed opponent, and something to make this a little easier to pull off with a knife than a gun could fit. Some kind of feat to prevent someone you've closed with easily drawing on you ("Gunman's bane") might work well, and equally represent some young brave jumping you with a tomahawk or other melee situations. Something else to represent a good old cavalry charge with sabres, perhaps (giving horses lots of hitpoints, and making them provide a skilled rider with cover, would represent the fact that small-gauge weaponry doesn't easily take down a charging warhorse, even if it will generally render it useless afterwards). Maybe something else again to represent bayonet charges, and whatever other military uses of melee you might be able to think of. If you get exotic and throw a samurai in there, give him a reasonable chance of beating a gunman to a draw from a close distance, and of taking them down on the first strike (iajutsu has to be good for something). If you've got a quixotic nutter dressed up as a Spanish Conquistadore or something, give him a breastplate that could actually stop a bullet (which is not unreasonable). Up until someone shoots him in the face, anyway.

But, on the whole, going wuxia is probably a more fun way to balance this for most groups than such tactical considerations.

Autolykos
2011-09-09, 08:18 AM
Giving a viable countermeasure is probably the best way to reduce the power of guns without completely altering the setting or hurting suspension of disbelief. Like, introducing some kind of super-silkworm with strings as robust as Kevlar. Bulletproof clothing would be pretty expensive, but far less cumbersome (and a lot easier to hide) than the full-plate (or even chainmail) needed to protect against a sword, so this would give melee weapons a good niche. Making ammunition expensive wouldn't hurt, either.

Naturally, if someone's foolish enough to wave around a blade at you at a distance, it's very easy to do an Indy. it the Chicago way.Fixed that for you. SCNR.

Conners
2011-09-09, 09:15 AM
You'll probably hit him if you're faster than him and you can get a clean draw, certainly. And another issue is that of palming or otherwise concealing a knife in one's hand - very easy to do, and something that reduces the time from draw and slash to grip-shift and slash.

Overall, defending yourself against a knifeman with a gun really isn't that simple. See this training video, for instance. (http://www.your-krav-maga-expert.com/gun-vs-knife.html) If both people are doing it right, the knifeman will be trying to get in close and stab/slash while trying to block the gunman's draw, while the gunman will be trying to block the knifeman's strike while he backpedals and shoots.

Now, all this emphasis on ambush combat may seem one-sided, but that's how lethal combat was generally fought in the old west, just as on the streets today. Naturally, if someone's foolish enough to wave around a blade at you at a distance, it's very easy to do an Indy. But that isn't generally how real-life combat happens.

How I'd model this in a fairly realistic RPG? Sneak-attack style systems reward the surprise attack on a flat-footed opponent, and something to make this a little easier to pull off with a knife than a gun could fit. Some kind of feat to prevent someone you've closed with easily drawing on you ("Gunman's bane") might work well, and equally represent some young brave jumping you with a tomahawk or other melee situations. Something else to represent a good old cavalry charge with sabres, perhaps (giving horses lots of hitpoints, and making them provide a skilled rider with cover, would represent the fact that small-gauge weaponry doesn't easily take down a charging warhorse, even if it will generally render it useless afterwards). Maybe something else again to represent bayonet charges, and whatever other military uses of melee you might be able to think of. If you get exotic and throw a samurai in there, give him a reasonable chance of beating a gunman to a draw from a close distance, and of taking them down on the first strike (iajutsu has to be good for something). If you've got a quixotic nutter dressed up as a Spanish Conquistadore or something, give him a breastplate that could actually stop a bullet (which is not unreasonable). Up until someone shoots him in the face, anyway.

But, on the whole, going wuxia is probably a more fun way to balance this for most groups than such tactical considerations. Yep.

Krav Maga is good stuff, if you use the same style as the comandos (some of it is plain kick-boxing...).

If you hit well before they notice you, there's nothing they can do, really. So, unless you miss, or they were wearing armour the whole time which stops you--you're done for.

Umm... I'm not so sure about horses having a lot of HP. Horses are pretty skittish... not sure what they'd do after getting shot--but it might involve throwing you off and being more dangerous to you than the enemy. Not to say horses are a hiderance--just that you mightn't wnat to over-rate their ability to act as cover.
Got a friend who reckoned iajutsu was pretty good. He has been mugged before, so I trust his judgement.

For some. When it just comes to number crunch and saying crazy stuff, I become less interested (sometimes that's fun... but having to actually think and interact would be better).