The Sins of Tiamat

[Andorax]

Toying with a campagin concept, and I'd like to accumulate some different opinions from the forum as a whole.

If one were to look over the classical list of the "seven deadly sins*" and attempt to associate them (by personality) with the five principle types of chromatic dragon, as embodied in the form of Tiamat herself, how would you divide them up? Which sin would you associate with which head, and which two would you leave out? Or would you rather double them up? Confronted with Tiamat herself (or one of her aspects), what will you need to know to placate each of the five respective heads?

*For reference: Greed, Wrath, Sloth, Envy, Pride, Gluttony, Lust

I'll be withholding my initial impression for now, as I'd prefer not to bias your take on it. I'm thinking of using this as a potential focal point/major plot element in a heavily draconic campaign arc.

[mootoall]

Red: Wrath (duh). Green: Greed/Envy. Black: Not sure. Sloth, maybe? Blue: Pride. White: Gluttony. Lust goes to all of them, since, y'know, half dragon everything.

[Biguds]

Let´s see : .

Black - Greed, Envy
White - Wrath, Gluttony
Green - Sloth, Lust
Red - Pride

[Fouredged Sword]

Red - Greed
Blue - Pride
White - Glutony
Black - Wrath
Green - Envy

[MesiDoomstalker]

Red - Pride
Blue - Sloth?
White - Gluttony
Black - Wrath
Green - Envy See what I did there?

Greed and Lust are universal draconic "sins" so I would make that something incorporated into all of them. The only one I'm not completely sure of is Blue=Sloth. None of the dragons seem slothful really but I would rather incorporate it and not leave a weird hole that the players have to figure out.

[Hazzardevil]

Toying with a campagin concept, and I'd like to accumulate some different opinions from the forum as a whole.

If one were to look over the classical list of the "seven deadly sins*" and attempt to associate them (by personality) with the five principle types of chromatic dragon, as embodied in the form of Tiamat herself, how would you divide them up? Which sin would you associate with which head, and which two would you leave out? Or would you rather double them up? Confronted with Tiamat herself (or one of her aspects), what will you need to know to placate each of the five respective heads?

*For reference: Greed, Wrath, Sloth, Envy, Pride, Gluttony, Lust

I'll be withholding my initial impression for now, as I'd prefer not to bias your take on it. I'm thinking of using this as a potential focal point/major plot element in a heavily draconic campaign arc.

Presuming this is accross multiple campaign settings then Greed I suppose would be the spawn of tiamat and draconions.
Wrath would be every time she's ever tried to conquer a world.
Pride would be every time she tries to get back at someone for ruining a plan or something, no other ideas.

[Kol Korran]

hhhmmmm... interesting one, but i like the idea. sounds intriguing. would ,love to hear more of what you have planned. anyway, here are my ideas:

Red- Greed- they are said to be very very greedy, and their powers are set to locate treasure. placated by: a great and unique treasure.

Blue- I'd say Pride. they seem to reside in remote locations, the ruins of told cities, and they... don't know, always felt like bloody arrogant bastards to me. plus, they rule the skies, looking down on everyone. placated by: some serious flattering to his name- a song, a tablet with it's deeds on it and so on.

green- Gluttony, mainly because he is the only one except Red that lives in a local that offers plenty of food. besides, most of the green dragon pics i've seen always seemed a little... chubby. they look like scheming bastards, but also ones who like to enjoy fine things. placated by: a truly unique gourmet meal. a taste that is out of this world!

Black- Sloth: they reside in swamps, that feel kinda sleepy, warm, humid to me. also, their wings decay, the skin over their skulls and their scales. it looks like a long time neglect to me, so sloth it is. also, i think that black would be a cool color for the greater dragon, so what's keeping them down if not a lack of effort? (this last part is a joke, yes?) placated by something to make it more comfy. perhaps a great pillow the brings good dreams? or some sort of apparatus for simple menial tasks? (draconic auto tooth picker?)


White- Envy: as the lowliest of dragons, i feel envy plays a big part with this one. it is it's driving force, what fires it's ambition. plus- white may be considered a sort of "none color", so maybe it is envious of the other colors? also, it lives in THE most desolate places on earth- doesn't it envy the fate of others? placated by: some valuable thing that belongs to the others. either giving the white head an "Edge", or just something better than the others got.

Why not Lust- it just doesn't fit with dragons to me. dragons seem to be quite unsocial, very much the isolationist, basing relationship more on power and usefulness, than on the merits of one's sexuality.

Why not Wrath- Wrath may fit the very Image of dragon (and maybe fit Tiamat as a whole) but i don't think it fits individual dragons. Wrath is usually fueled by a cause, often a religious or ideological one (if i understand wrath correctly, i'm not a native English speaker), while dragons, at least as presented in the MM, are mostly selfish bastards, doing things mostly for self gain. they may be angry, they may be terrible, but wrathful? don't feel like it to me.

[flumphy]

Greed-Red. It's actually stated that they are the greediest of all dragons, and even their mechanics reflect that somewhat, with abilities like locate object and discern location.

Wrath-White. They're very animalistic in nature, the barbarian of a species known for their intellect. They abandon reason for brute force.

Sloth-Black. They lay around in swamps, have an affinity for reptiles, and even smell of decay. Sounds slothful to me.

Pride-Blue. They're known for their vanity, after all. The Draconomicon practically beats you over the head with it. The fact that they live in deserts, a place where their blue hide stands out against the sand, adds this theme.

Lust-Green. Like lust, green is insidious. Green is all about manipulation and control. Green is suave (for a dragon, anyway.) And they use their abilities to feed their lust for power.

Envy and gluttony-All dragons exhibit this. In western mythology, at least, dragons are arguably the embodiment of this. In legends, they steal fair maidens when they can't do anything with them other than snack (where they can't shapeshift.) They brood in their lonely caves hoarding gold they can't spend. In D&D, they actually consume the valuables for food! However, I wouldn't say any particular color exhibits these sins more than any other. Because of that, perhaps these are fitting aspects for Tiamat herself.

[hamishspence]

In 4E, brown dragons are the most flavour-obsessed of them all- much keener on attacking strange monsters simply to sample a new flavour.

Gray dragons are more "hunt-obsessed".

[Andorax]

Some excellent thoughts here. Please do keep them coming.

Here's my initial take on it, but after hearing some of your fine suggestions I may well adapt it further down the line.

Red - Greed. Aside from the existing associations listed (greediest dragon type, greed-related abilities) I see Greed as being the most iconic draconic sin, and as such, the one most likely to be embodied by the principle, most powerful head of Tiamat.

Blue - Pride. Not far behind Greed in terms of being a fundamental draconic aspect, blue dragons (as the most powerful lawfuls) seem to best embody this concept. Assigning pride to a "lesser" head just doesn't seem to be fitting, and this would have been the red's sin if it weren't for the iconic nature of Greed with dragons.

Green - Sloth. Greens are controllers, manipulators...they seem to me to be the ultimate minion-master chromatics. Why work for it if you can simply bully someone, or many someones, into doing it for you.

Black - Gluttony. Honestly, this is the weakest association...kind of a "process of elimination" choice.

White - Wrath. I'd be remiss in not including draconic wrath in the list...this seems to best fit with the least 'rational' of the heads, the one who most acts on basic destructive instinct.


Lust and Envy were left off, not because I don't see them as valid applications, but because they don't well fit the model (of Tiamat embodying sins in her different heads). Lust doesn't seem to be a strong motivation for Tiamat...sure, she's had consorts at one time or another, but it's hardly a driving force.

As for envy, it's very problematic. Externally, for Tiamat to envy at all she would have to acknowledge beings more powerful than herself, which doesn't often seem to be the case. How can you envy when you already see yourself as having it all? Internally, it's even MORE of a problem, because if she internalizes envy and embodies it in a single head, then what she's envying is...the other heads. I don't want to go down the path of Tiamat infighting with herself.


More thoughts and comments welcome.

[MammonAzrael]

The 4th edition Draconomicon (Chromatic Dragons) is a great resource for this info. The fluff has only been expanded in 4th, and is fully applicable to 3.5

That said, assigning only one sin to each color is a bit touchy, as the dragons share several traits. That said, they are unique enough to swing it if you want that singular symmetry.


Black - There is no clear fit here. As the cruelest of the dragons, it takes pleasure in violence and pain. Gluttony might work, if you expand it beyond consumption. Sadism is not one of the 7, not is cowardice.
Blue - Pride. Extremely vain and arrogant, they take pleasure in wielding their power over inferior creatures. Even their preferred combat styles emphasize their superiority. They can actually be the easiest dragons to deal with, as long as you humble yourself and and give them the respect they believe they deserve.
Green - Another hard-to-fit color. Deception and manipulation are the tenants of the greens. Envy or Lust are the closest.
Red - Greed. They are avaricious beyond reason, even among dragons. Pride is a close second, as they are so full of themselves they believe they are the pinnacle of draconic perfection. Wrath is another close one, as they never forgive any slight, and meet out enormous retribution.
White - Sloth. They keep to themselves not because their actually stupid, but rather because they're too lazy to care about politics and machinations and really any interaction much beyond munching snacks.


Bonus!


Brown - Gluttony. They love the tastes of new food and their comforts so much that they are difficult to access, but will take crazy risks for new flavors. Sloth is probably the runner-up for them, as they nearly always choose the path that involves less effort.
Gray - One more hard-to-fit dragon here. A treacherous and self-destructive love of the hunt coupled with corruptibility and a willingness to compromise nearly anything to get what it wants aren't on the list.
Purple - Like Greens, these guys prefer manipulation and tricks. But they're far more blunt about it, dominating and controlling.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Some excellent thoughts here. Please do keep them coming.

Here's my initial take on it, but after hearing some of your fine suggestions I may well adapt it further down the line.

Red - Greed. Aside from the existing associations listed (greediest dragon type, greed-related abilities) I see Greed as being the most iconic draconic sin, and as such, the one most likely to be embodied by the principle, most powerful head of Tiamat.

Blue - Pride. Not far behind Greed in terms of being a fundamental draconic aspect, blue dragons (as the most powerful lawfuls) seem to best embody this concept. Assigning pride to a "lesser" head just doesn't seem to be fitting, and this would have been the red's sin if it weren't for the iconic nature of Greed with dragons.

Green - Sloth. Greens are controllers, manipulators...they seem to me to be the ultimate minion-master chromatics. Why work for it if you can simply bully someone, or many someones, into doing it for you.

Black - Gluttony. Honestly, this is the weakest association...kind of a "process of elimination" choice.

White - Wrath. I'd be remiss in not including draconic wrath in the list...this seems to best fit with the least 'rational' of the heads, the one who most acts on basic destructive instinct.


Lust and Envy were left off, not because I don't see them as valid applications, but because they don't well fit the model (of Tiamat embodying sins in her different heads). Lust doesn't seem to be a strong motivation for Tiamat...sure, she's had consorts at one time or another, but it's hardly a driving force.

As for envy, it's very problematic. Externally, for Tiamat to envy at all she would have to acknowledge beings more powerful than herself, which doesn't often seem to be the case. How can you envy when you already see yourself as having it all? Internally, it's even MORE of a problem, because if she internalizes envy and embodies it in a single head, then what she's envying is...the other heads. I don't want to go down the path of Tiamat infighting with herself.


More thoughts and comments welcome.

I assume you will have your players encounter Tiamat or an avatar or other such embodiment? Then you defiantly need to make separate personalities for each head (and speech patterns) while still being Tiamat. That all 5 voices as a whole will speak as Tiamat but each individual head will put it's "sin" into everything it says. I would even go as far as to have Clerics (and other divine-based classes) of separate heads/sins and making domains for each mixing in the element with the sin in the spell selection and powers. I would love to see this when its completed. I love draconic characters and themes.

[dgnslyr]

You can lust for power or wealth, can't you? Both seem to be very draconic things to lust for. Unless, of course, I'm misinterpreting lust in the context of the seven deadly sins.

[Andorax]

I assume you will have your players encounter Tiamat or an avatar or other such embodiment? Then you defiantly need to make separate personalities for each head (and speech patterns) while still being Tiamat. That all 5 voices as a whole will speak as Tiamat but each individual head will put it's "sin" into everything it says. I would even go as far as to have Clerics (and other divine-based classes) of separate heads/sins and making domains for each mixing in the element with the sin in the spell selection and powers. I would love to see this when its completed. I love draconic characters and themes.

These are possible aspects of where this could go, yes.

Mind you, this isn't a fully fleshed-out "encounter next week, need help now to define it"...it's more concept work than anything else at this point.

I do like the idea of clerics of Tiamat adopting one particular head as their foremost 'patron' and gaining access to the associated domain (see Dragon 323).

I can also see extensive use of the Dragonspawn (MM4), and having these characteristics bleed over into the nature of the particular dragonspawn type.




You can lust for power or wealth, can't you? Both seem to be very draconic things to lust for. Unless, of course, I'm misinterpreting lust in the context of the seven deadly sins.

Well, yes actually. Still, it's not the most commonly understood aspect of that particular sin, nor does interpreting it that way particularly make any given head stand out (at least to me) as being a more appropriate association.

Still, anyone who wants to take this angle, I'm certainly interested in hearing you out.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

*well thought out descriptions*

Really, the five heads of Tiamat all have some sway with the "Seven Deady Sins." Generally, I'd throw one to each color of the primary chromatics, then say that two remaining sins are either universal to evil dragon kind or just don't fit.

Kol Korran's descriptions work rather well. I'd say that Wrath applies to all dragons to some degree, but evil dragons especially. Lust is either applies to all dragons (see the half dragon template:smalltongue:) or none, by Kol's reasonings.

[TheJake]

I don't know how you could NOT put Red as Wrath?? :smallconfused:

Hasn't anyone here read the dragon descriptions?

Red: Wrath
Blue: Pride
Green: Greed
White: Gluttony
Black: Sloth

- J.

[Andorax]

Been reviewing the Savage Tide adventure path, and just hit on another idea...the concept that "aspects" aren't always the same, and can be customized to some degree to fit a particular group, location, or purpose.

Would it be too far of a stretch to have five different Aspects of Tiamat over the course of a campaign arc, each of which has a different dominant color, and is principally motivated by by the dominant sin? The dominant color would be apparent by both central location (swapping red with the normal spot) and by the body being that color instead of the brownish/wyvern-like that's normal for Tiamat.

[hamishspence]

Seems reasonable. Expedition to the Demonweb Pits stats out two different aspects of Lolth with different roles- the Hammer of Lolth (fighting) and the Envoy of Lolth (diplomacy).

[MesiDoomstalker]

Been reviewing the Savage Tide adventure path, and just hit on another idea...the concept that "aspects" aren't always the same, and can be customized to some degree to fit a particular group, location, or purpose.

Would it be too far of a stretch to have five different Aspects of Tiamat over the course of a campaign arc, each of which has a different dominant color, and is principally motivated by by the dominant sin? The dominant color would be apparent by both central location (swapping red with the normal spot) and by the body being that color instead of the brownish/wyvern-like that's normal for Tiamat.

I can easily see this happening. Expounding on the worshiper/cleric/etc. of a specific head/sin would have holy symbols and statues etc. in the same manner. But I would also make it more prevalent. Like make the "dominate" head not only center but larger maybe decrease the power of other heads to and increase its own power (effectively increase size for main head, effectively decrease size for all others). Actually, that would be bringing this sin aspect to its logical conclusion in my opinion.

[Analytica]

What if there is a heresy concerning the two "hidden" or "lost" heads of Tiamat, corresponding to the remaining sins?

There could be all sorts of strangeness, from chromatic dragon variants that never became realized, to dragons existing in subtler planes, to hypothetical chromatic-chromatic or chromatic-metallic hybrids, to those perhaps even being heads of Bahamut... doesn't have to be true, necessarily, but makes theological sense.

[Andorax]

What if there is a heresy concerning the two "hidden" or "lost" heads of Tiamat, corresponding to the remaining sins?

There could be all sorts of strangeness, from chromatic dragon variants that never became realized, to dragons existing in subtler planes, to hypothetical chromatic-chromatic or chromatic-metallic hybrids, to those perhaps even being heads of Bahamut... doesn't have to be true, necessarily, but makes theological sense.

Interesting...definately interesting.

[Etrivar]

I don't know how you could NOT put Red as Wrath?? :smallconfused:

Hasn't anyone here read the dragon descriptions?

Because the description explicitly states that red dragons are greedy, pretty much above all else.

Haven't you read the dragon descriptions?

[MammonAzrael]

Because the description explicitly states that red dragons are greedy, pretty much above all else.

Haven't you read the dragon descriptions?

Indeed. In fact the descriptions makes it clear that the runner-up sin for Reds is Pride. Their vindictiveness, which I'm not sure qualifies as wrath, takes a major back seat to both of those.

[Psyren]

The only two I'm sure of are Red and Black - Greed and Wrath.

Red is definitely Greed.

"The most covetous of all true dragons, reds seek tirelessly to increase their treasure hoards." - Drac 50.

(Though they could also be Pride:)

"They believe that, above all other species, they are the closest to the ideals of draconic nature and behavior, and that the rest of dragonkind has slipped from this purity." - Drac 51.

Black is Wrath - the most hateful variety.

"Black dragons are among the most evil-tempered true dragons...They have no natural enemies, though they attack and kill almost anything unfortunate enough to stumble upon them." - Drac 37.

Greens... I couldn't see anything in their narrative that really stood out. They're fond of politics but not necessarily of putting themselves at the top the way Blues do. Whites are a natural for Envy as was previously stated, but they don't seem to care much that they're the dumbest dragons around. Lust also fits Whites because "they are prone to carnal pleasures and often mate just for the fun of it." Gluttony and Lust can really fit all of them, even metallics. It's all a bit nebulous.

[MammonAzrael]

Black is Wrath - the most hateful variety.

"Black dragons are among the most evil-tempered true dragons...They have no natural enemies, though they attack and kill almost anything unfortunate enough to stumble upon them." - Drac 37.

Except that isn't Wrath (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wrath). In fact being a violent sadist is not one of the 7 Deadly Sins.


Greens... I couldn't see anything in their narrative that really stood out. They're fond of politics but not necessarily of putting themselves at the top the way Blues do. Whites are a natural for Envy as was previously stated, but they don't seem to care much that they're the dumbest dragons around. Lust also fits Whites because "they are prone to carnal pleasures and often mate just for the fun of it." Gluttony and Lust can really fit all of them, even metallics. It's all a bit nebulous.

I'm curious why you and others seem to feel that Envy fits Whites so well. Neither the 3.5 or 4th edition Draconomicon mention them being particularly envious (at least I didn't see anything). Both make note of their generally loner preferences and hunter lifestyles. And both make note that "They remember any slight or defeat and have been known to conduct malicious vendettas against beings or groups that have offended them." Drac Which sounds like standard, Wrath, and possibly the best candidate for it.

[Psyren]

I'm curious why you and others seem to feel that Envy fits Whites so well.

They are dumb/weak enough to occupy the bottom rung of chromatic dragonkind (reds don't even consider them worthy opponents) but smart enough to know it. It's a perfect recipe for envy, though they don't really act on the discrepancy much.

All I and others have said is that they're the most likely to experience Envy, but in honesty I'm not sure that sin/emotion really applies to any dragon.

[MammonAzrael]

They are dumb/weak enough to occupy the bottom rung of chromatic dragonkind (reds don't even consider them worthy opponents) but smart enough to know it. It's a perfect recipe for envy, though they don't really act on the discrepancy much.

All I and others have said is that they're the most likely to experience Envy, but in honesty I'm not sure that sin/emotion really applies to any dragon.

Fair enough. I agree that they are certainly the most likely candidates for Envy...its just the Envy doesn't much fit any dragon.

[Kire_Nessumsar]

You could let one of the sins be the lead in for the plot. Let the players search for the power behind. . . say lust. Which then could turn out to be associated with all dragons. Then select a sin for each head and then let the combined heads (The form of Tiamat) be the last sin. (pride?) that'll let use use all sins in someway.

[Psyren]

Either Pride or Greed should be Tiamat as a whole.

Personally, I think Greed is the strongest sin - in addition to defining dragons (even the good ones), all the others can be expressed as Greed for something else.

Gluttony = Greed for food
Lust = Greed for sex
Envy = Greed for others' achievements
Pride = Greed for status
Sloth = Greed for sleep/inactivity
Wrath = Greed for violence/hate

[CockroachTeaParty]

After reading the thread, I suppose Greed is the most fitting sin for red dragons. However, I've always associated them with pride the most.

Also, consider that in Dante's Inferno, the circle of Hell reserved for pride was the deepest, darkest, worst one. As the most powerful of the chromatic dragons, I associate pride, arguably the deadliest of the seven sins, to best embody them.

While some have argued blues for pride, that seems more vanity than anything. While vanity can be an aspect of pride, true Pride is more along the lines of mega-narcissism, perhaps bordering on malevolent solipsism.

What's interesting to think about, is this: the ultimate source of all pride is shame.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

I would apply Greed and Pride to all heads (them being dragons and all) Red:Wrath, Green: Envy, Black: Sloth, Blue: Gluttony, White: Lust (because of all them white dragonspawn out there...).

[Psyren]

Envy fits Tiamat herself way more than it fits her dragons. Every single origin story has her not measuring up to Bahamut/Paladine and becoming even more of a jerk because of it.

[big teej]

Toying with a campagin concept, and I'd like to accumulate some different opinions from the forum as a whole.

If one were to look over the classical list of the "seven deadly sins*" and attempt to associate them (by personality) with the five principle types of chromatic dragon, as embodied in the form of Tiamat herself, how would you divide them up? Which sin would you associate with which head, and which two would you leave out? Or would you rather double them up? Confronted with Tiamat herself (or one of her aspects), what will you need to know to placate each of the five respective heads?

*For reference: Greed, Wrath, Sloth, Envy, Pride, Gluttony, Lust

I'll be withholding my initial impression for now, as I'd prefer not to bias your take on it. I'm thinking of using this as a potential focal point/major plot element in a heavily draconic campaign arc.

this is a bit tricksy....

as opposed to leaving 2 out however, I would say that tiamat as a whole embodies the extra 2

for instance.... (and I'm not happy with this allocation, but there isn't one I would be happy with)

Tiamat - Greed
Red - Wrath
White - Sloth
Green - Envy
Blue - Pride
Black - Glutton
Tiamat - Lust

Tiamat is a dragon, all dragon's are inherently greedy (hoard) and dragons, as a whole, tend to be extremely lustful (half dragon template)

now, that said, I actually feel like dragons encompass nearly all 7.
all dragons are wrathful
all dragons are envious (hey, you have a shiney that I don't!)
all dragons are prideful
all* dragons are lustful - half dragon template
all dragons are gluttonous - sleep all they want, get as much shineys as possible
all dragons are greedy - see shineys

however, no dragon truly encompasses sloth, except perpahs whites due to their stupidity.

[MammonAzrael]

Envy fits Tiamat herself way more than it fits her dragons. Every single origin story has her not measuring up to Bahamut/Paladine and becoming even more of a jerk because of it.

Ooh, this is an excellent observation! Bravo Psyren! Envy doesn't really fit her progeny, but it's dead on for the Goddess herself!

[Etrivar]

however, no dragon truly encompasses sloth, except perpahs whites due to their stupidity.

That logic doesn't really work. Look at the stereotypical jock. Things that are weak mentally are likely to make up for their stupidity by becoming strong in other ways; i.e. physically.

Now, the Draconomicon does say Whites are the smallest and weakest of the chromatic dragons, but it sounded to me like that was more genetics than any laziness on their part.

The only reason that I associate Withes with Sloth is because I associate cold with hibernation. However, as White dragons are immune to the effects of cold, that logic doesn't really work either, but I can't rid myself of the association.