Quicken Spell & Quicken Power

[Garagos]

Hey Playgrounders,

I have a Wizard/Psion/Cerebramancer in a friends campaign and I'm trying to think ahead for feats for him. Was curious if its possible to quicken both a spell and a power in the same round if I had both feats? I know you can normally only quicken 1 spell or power per round but wasn't sure if I could do one of each since they are 2 different abilities. If you could point me to the rule in your response that would be helpful so I could show my DM. Thanks.

[subject42]

I think the limitation isn't that you can only quicken one spell/power per round, but more that you only get one swift action per round. You'll need to find ways to get more swift actions, or abuse the schism power a lot.

[Seerow]

No. Just no. Down that way lies madness.





Also, wasn't Quicken Spell/Power erratad to a swift action once that got invented? If not, it should be.


edit: Just checked, and it was, and it is updated to reflect that in the SRD. I'm too lazy to check my 3.5 book to see if it was written as a free or swift action there. I know in 3.0 it was a once per turn free action which causes this sort of confusion.

[NNescio]

No. Just no. Down that way lies madness.





Also, wasn't Quicken Spell/Power erratad to a swift action once that got invented? If not, it should be.


edit: Just checked, and it was, and it is updated to reflect that in the SRD. I'm too lazy to check my 3.5 book to see if it was written as a free or swift action there. I know in 3.0 it was a once per turn free action which causes this sort of confusion.

It's listed as a once-per-turn Free Action in the 3.5 PHB, but it has been errated rather conclusively.

Things like this is why I prefer the SRD over the core books.

[Garagos]

Ok thanks. As far as I know my group has still been playing with them as free actions. That being the case, assuming we don't switch to swift actions, would this be possible?

[Seerow]

Ok thanks. As far as I know my group has still been playing with them as free actions. That being the case, assuming we don't switch to swift actions, would this be possible?

If you don't follow the errata you're already going by house rules, so basically ask your DM. Any sane one will tell you no.

[Cog]

Ok thanks. As far as I know my group has still been playing with them as free actions. That being the case, assuming we don't switch to swift actions, would this be possible?
If you choose to ignore the rule that prevents this, then there is nothing preventing this.

[faceroll]

Above posters are kind of being smartasses, but what you want to know is "is there a rule in the books you have prohibiting said combination?" right? To answer you- no, there's no such rule in your sources.

[Seerow]

Above posters are kind of being smartasses, but what you want to know is "is there a rule in the books you have prohibiting said combination?" right? To answer you- no, there's no such rule in your sources.

It's not being a smartass to say ignoring the rules to do something against the rule is pretty much playing "see if the DM will let me get away with it". It's not balanced to allow it, and it's not allowed by the actual rules to do it... but if you want to ignore both of those and try to do it anyway because when the writers wrote the PHB the term "Swift Action" hadn't yet been invented, then whatever. If the official rules won't stop you from doing something I don't see why official rules would be needed to give you validation.

[Tyndmyr]

Above posters are kind of being smartasses, but what you want to know is "is there a rule in the books you have prohibiting said combination?" right? To answer you- no, there's no such rule in your sources.


That's not really being a smartass...it's entirely correct.

There's a rule specifically against it. If you ignore this rule, well...sure. Nothing is illegal if you just ignore the rules. But most DMs are going to take a dim view of such things. Smacks of munchkinry, and will likely be treated as such.

[faceroll]

It's not being a smartass to say ignoring the rules to do something against the rule is pretty much playing "see if the DM will let me get away with it".

It's not what is said, but how it is said.


That's not really being a smartass...it's entirely correct.

Never said anyone was incorrect, bro.


There's a rule specifically against it. If you ignore this rule, well...sure. Nothing is illegal if you just ignore the rules. But most DMs are going to take a dim view of such things. Smacks of munchkinry, and will likely be treated as such.

There's a rule specifically against it, in another source. If they aren't playing with that source, then there are no rules against it. It seems to me that the OP is requesting to see if there are any rules in the PHB and XPH that forbid using a quickened power & a quickened spell in the same round.

And so far, no one has done much to point towards the rule, other than say "it's in the errata". That is about as helpful as saying "it is in the book".

[Seerow]

There's a rule specifically against it, in another source. If they aren't playing with that source, then there are no rules against it. It seems to me that the OP is requesting to see if there are any rules in the PHB and XPH that forbid using a quickened power & a quickened spell in the same round.

And so far, no one has done much to point towards the rule, other than say "it's in the errata". That is about as helpful as saying "it is in the book".

It's also been said "It's in the SRD" which is an easily accessible source that includes errata.

He's been made aware that the rule was changed because the original rule was written without the concept of swift actions in mind. Trying to ignore that and ask for validation on the forum for what pretty much amounts to cheating is pretty low. If he seriously tries to press the issue because his book wasn't automagically updated, then I hope his DM hits him with said book.

[faceroll]

If he seriously tries to press the issue because his book wasn't automagically updated, then I hope his DM hits him with said book.

:smallconfused:
........ok

[Circle of Life]

Hitting people with a book over a voluntary decision to not use a certain rule is going a bit far. I don't agree with it, but if his group is aware of it and chooses not to change their ways... what harm is there in letting him play in that way?

To answer the question: No, there's nothing stopping you, provided your group willingly chooses not to use the updated rules. I think it would be wrong to sneak it over on them without making sure they understand the rules were updated, though.

[Garagos]

It's also been said "It's in the SRD" which is an easily accessible source that includes errata.

He's been made aware that the rule was changed because the original rule was written without the concept of swift actions in mind. Trying to ignore that and ask for validation on the forum for what pretty much amounts to cheating is pretty low. If he seriously tries to press the issue because his book wasn't automagically updated, then I hope his DM hits him with said book.

I was not trying to IGNORE that they have been changed to swift actions. Until now I had no idea that the SRD had changed quicken from free to swift because we hardly use the SRD when we play, we usually stick to the books. So calling it cheating is a bit over the top I believe. I will point it out to him and ask if we're going to keep using quicken the way we always have or switch to the errata rules.

Thanks to those of you who answered my question without calling me a cheater or otherwise being rude.

[subject42]

I will point it out to him and ask if we're going to keep using quicken the way we always have or switch to the errata rules.

If you decide to switch the errata-ed version, there are lots of ways to still wreck the action economy in your favor.

Use the powers Schism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/schism.htm) and Temporal Acceleration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/temporalAcceleration.htm) to grant yourself extra actions through psionics.

If you need to act RIGHTNOW, the PHB2 has a spell called Celerity that will help you out.

It's hard to squeeze into your build, but there are classes that can grant you extra actions.

Factotum 8 (maybe 7 - Dungeonscape) grants you extra standard actions by spending inspiration points.

Ruby Knight Vindicator (Tome of Battle) requires both maneuvers and divine casting, but you can burn turn attempts for extra swift actions. Extra swift actions == extra quickened spells.

[Garagos]

Use the powers Schism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/schism.htm) and Temporal Acceleration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/temporalAcceleration.htm) to grant yourself extra actions through psionics.

Thanks for the great suggestions. My Cerebramancer specialized in the Egoist discipline so I don't believe that Schism is available to me, but after reading Temporal Acceleration I'll be taking that for sure.

My DM just confirmed he plans on keeping the Quickens as free actions after I pointed out that the SRD changed them to swift, so I guess we'll see if he sticks with that decision once i get both Quicken feats. :smallbiggrin:

[KillianHawkeye]

What people have failed to realize is that the Quicken Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#quickenPower) feat did not receive the same errata that Quicken Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell) did. Unlike the version for spells, Quicken Power is quite vague about exactly what type of action manifesting the power requires. Yet, it helpfully includes the lines "You can perform another action, even manifest another power, in the same round that you manifest a quickened power. You can manifest only one quickened power per round." which matches the original writing of Quicken Spell (except for the lack of a specific action type and the basic differences between magic and psionics). Quicken Power does require you to expend your psionic focus, but I can likewise find no action requirement, so I assume that doing so is a part of whatever your related activity is.

So if we're going by RAW, then manifesting a Quickened power doesn't seem to take any actions at all, so this trick should actually work. You could argue RAI that it was supposed to cost a free action, and then go double-RAI and argue that the errata to Quicken Spell should also be applied to Quicken Power, but those would technically be house rules.

[subject42]

Thanks for the great suggestions. My Cerebramancer specialized in the Egoist discipline so I don't believe that Schism is available to me, but after reading Temporal Acceleration I'll be taking that for sure.

If you can squeeze it into your build, you can get that power with Expanded Knowledge.

Alternately, take leadership for a Telepath Cohort and manifest Fusion on him.

[candycorn]

Thanks for the great suggestions. My Cerebramancer specialized in the Egoist discipline so I don't believe that Schism is available to me, but after reading Temporal Acceleration I'll be taking that for sure.

My DM just confirmed he plans on keeping the Quickens as free actions after I pointed out that the SRD changed them to swift, so I guess we'll see if he sticks with that decision once i get both Quicken feats. :smallbiggrin:

You can gain the power via feat.

Also, look up Complete Psion. When you get there, take a look at: Synchronicity, Anticipatory Strike.

[Garagos]

Thanks Candycorn and Subject42. No one from our small group has ever played a psionic character before so I'm having to teach myself and learn as I go. I appreciate the advice and guidance.

[faceroll]

There are some wonderfully dirty tricks you can pull with a psicrystal. For instance, manifest vigor on yourself, share with psiycrystal. Then put share pain on yourself and psicrystal. You've just doubled your HPs!

You can manifest psychic reformation on yourself (get this power ASAP!!!!), and share with your psicrystal. Repick your psicrystal feats to something useful. Then use the feat leech power on your psicrystal. Wooo! Free feats!

You may also want to check out the mind mage prestige class from DR313:
http://www.angelfire.com/pro/demon_1/prc_mind_mage.htm

It loses another two manifester and caster levels, though, and I don't know how many you have already lost. At the very least, a 2 level dip gets you the ability to do some phenomenal metamagic/psionic cheese.