The Lich: Does it age?

[Rossebay]

Do bonuses accrue for aging as a Lich?
If so, do the penalties come with it?

[Chess435]

Do bonuses accrue for aging as a Lich?
If so, do the penalties come with it?

I would say no, as you technically aren't a member of your previous race.

[TroubleBrewing]

I would say no, as you technically aren't a member of your previous race.

Well, you ARE still a member of your race. You have a template, but you're still a member of your race.

I would also argue no, but more because Undead do not age.

[Morph Bark]

I would also argue no, but more because Undead do not age.

Evolved Undead template disagrees. :smalltongue:

But this is moreso in a different manner anyway.

[Callista]

I would also say no, it doesn't. As an undead creature, a lich isn't alive--it's just preserved. It doesn't grow and change the way living creatures do. Its personality tends to be static and mummified. To grow, you need life. The lich doesn't have that. All it can do is store up more and more information and power. If it grows older, it's only in the same way an embalmed corpse grows older.

That undead stasis means there's a lot to be said for Reincarnation abuse as a source of immortality. Even if you will eventually have Inevitables on your tail for it.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

RAW is fuzzy on this.

Generally, I'd say once you become undead, you would gain the mental bonuses from aging, but no longer lose any more physical stats. Thus, if you were middle-aged before becoming undead, you'd have the -1 to all physical stats, but wouldn't lose anymore once you became old or venerable for your race.

[MesiDoomstalker]

RAW is fuzzy on this.

Generally, I'd say once you become undead, you would gain the mental bonuses from aging, but no longer lose any more physical stats. Thus, if you were middle-aged before becoming undead, you'd have the -1 to all physical stats, but wouldn't lose anymore once you became old or venerable for your race.

Except that makes no sense. Once you become undead, your body is not fueled by chemistry and biology (generally speaking) its fueled by negative energy. Especially in the case of a lich or a skeleton who no longer have muscles, there is no logical reasons why your physical body (which is totally different now) be affected by old age when your not even alive anymore. This is defiantly a case of RAI.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Except that makes no sense. Once you become undead, your body is not fueled by chemistry and biology (generally speaking) its fueled by negative energy. Especially in the case of a lich or a skeleton who no longer have muscles, there is no logical reasons why your physical body (which is totally different now) be affected by old age when your not even alive anymore. This is defiantly a case of RAI.

Well, yeah, but if you hide well enough, you still could be among your people.:smallwink:

[Morph Bark]

Except that makes no sense. Once you become undead, your body is not fueled by chemistry and biology (generally speaking) its fueled by negative energy. Especially in the case of a lich or a skeleton who no longer have muscles, there is no logical reasons why your physical body (which is totally different now) be affected by old age when your not even alive anymore. This is defiantly a case of RAI.

There is also no logical reason why you would not continue to gain mental ability bonuses for aging after venerable.

[MesiDoomstalker]

There is also no logical reason why you would not continue to gain mental ability bonuses for aging after venerable.

This is my position as well but I don't have a solid argument against it so I don't vocalize it.

[Rossebay]

There is also no logical reason why you would not continue to gain mental ability bonuses for aging after venerable.

Which is scary, and it also makes short-lived races better liches.
This could make sense, though, as Elves take things slowly because they have a long time to live, whereas humans tend to learn and change as quickly as possible due to their short-lived lives. By fluff, anyway.

[TheJake]

By RAW I know the Evolved Undead template applies but how would it even come into effect on a Lich? Is it like a half-way state between a regular Lich and Demilich?

Since we're on the subject, I take it the OP raises this because there is no mechanic by which a Lich evolves into a Demilich? Beyond creating multiple soul gems that is.

- J.

[SiuiS]

I'm actually certain it says under the undead type description, probably in the monster manual, "undead do not age". I'd take that as face value; stasis, where you accrue neither penalty nor bonus.

Incidentally, that phrase and a bunch of other small things about undead mean they freeze time of death. A guy who dies, is turned into a zombie on the next round, and exists as a zombie for one hundred years, and is then killed, could be hit with revivify if you're fast enough, and he'd come back to life without any level loss.

[The Tygre]

Yes, at least according to Ravenloft. And if you can't trust Van Richten about undead, then you can't trust anybody.

[Rossebay]

I'm actually certain it says under the undead type description, probably in the monster manual, "undead do not age". I'd take that as face value; stasis, where you accrue neither penalty nor bonus.

Actually, it doesn't, which is what prompted the question. It makes no mention of them aging or not aging...


Edit: Actually, OP is not interested in becoming a Demilich, but that is a good point.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm actually certain it says under the undead type description, probably in the monster manual, "undead do not age". I'd take that as face value; stasis, where you accrue neither penalty nor bonus.Negative (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType). Clause not found, neither in the SRD entry, nor the MM type entry, nor the Lich (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) SRD entry, nor the Lich entry in the monster manual. The closest it comes is saying "...has used its magical powers to unnaturally extend its life." That's it. There's no actual crunch behind it - by RAW, neither the undead type nor the Lich template specifically change rate of aging, nor results of aging. Which means that human lich still uses the human aging tables, and drops dead (again) at 70 + 2d20 years, never to revive.

That is, however, utterly against the fluff of the Lich, so basically every DM house-rules it as soon as it comes to their attention. *How* they house-rule it will vary by DM, but it's technically a house-rule.

Libris Mortis eventually gives *something* (page 11 - they're "changeless and frozen")

[Rossebay]

Negative (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType). Clause not found, neither in the SRD entry, nor the MM type entry, nor the Lich (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) SRD entry, nor the Lich entry in the monster manual. The closest it comes is saying "...has used its magical powers to unnaturally extend its life." That's it. There's no actual crunch behind it - by RAW, neither the undead type nor the Lich template specifically change rate of aging, nor results of aging. Which means that human lich still uses the human aging tables, and drops dead (again) at 70 + 2d20 years, never to revive.

That is, however, utterly against the fluff of the Lich, so basically every DM house-rules it as soon as it comes to their attention. *How* they house-rule it will vary by DM, but it's technically a house-rule.

Libris Mortis eventually gives *something* (page 11 - they're "changeless and frozen")

I was just coming to the realization that it did nothing to alter the aging table, which would suck...

So, this means that a Lich ages as normal...
When it drops dead from old age, would it not simply revive as a Lich usually does, in 1d10 days?

[0nimaru]

I would say that it is a difficult job to construe game-based stats onto the physical body. They made aging to add a degree of realism available in the core rules, but even among the living it is contradictory. As OotS points out, you gett better eyesight, hearing, and get more attractive as you age, which is completely contradictory.

In a non-raw manner I would argue thus: When you become a skele-monster (Lich) remove all physical penalties acquired from aging, retain all mental bonuses, and you never again acquire more bonuses/penalties after the ritual. Once dead, a lich becomes stuck in his ways. He no longer has the natural impetus to learn, evolve, and experience life, or at the very least he is not affected by it in the same way.

[Rossebay]

I would say that it is a difficult job to construe game-based stats onto the physical body. They made aging to add a degree of realism available in the core rules, but even among the living it is contradictory. As OotS points out, you gett better eyesight, hearing, and get more attractive as you age, which is completely contradictory.

In a non-raw manner I would argue thus: When you become a skele-monster (Lich) remove all physical penalties acquired from aging, retain all mental bonuses, and you never again acquire more bonuses/penalties after the ritual. Once dead, a lich becomes stuck in his ways. He no longer has the natural impetus to learn, evolve, and experience life, or at the very least he is not affected by it in the same way.

This I would agree with. Having played a Lich before, the way I played my character (it was my second character, and he was fearless already) changed completely. No fear of death. The character had loved himself completely beforehand, and now that love was transferred to his love of his Phylactery, which was a magical compass that pointed to his destiny.

The character began to throw himself into combat, and even when he ran out of spells he saw no need to rest for the night. The rest of the party soon fell behind, though, and we left the campaign.

But, based on my experience, I'd still say that the Lich should accrue Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma bonuses situationally. They can still learn from their mistakes and experiences, they can teach themselves more and more as they age, and learn to better deal with people. But I think all of this depends on how the character is played in the first place.

My lich, Atlas, wouldn't have learned from his mistakes. He was very set in his ways. He would have, though, developed stronger intellect and learned how to better deal with people.

All in all, I feel as though (based on the information I've received from you guys) the Lich's bonuses should be decided by the DM as they age. Penalties should stay as they were in life, and shouldn't change at all due to age after that.

[Wings of Peace]

I'd give the Lich aging benefits but none of the penalties. This isn't based on RAW but my own personal stance that while undeath is preventing the Lich's body from degrading nothing is stopping him from exercising his mental faculties.

[Jack_Simth]

I was just coming to the realization that it did nothing to alter the aging table, which would suck...

So, this means that a Lich ages as normal...
When it drops dead from old age, would it not simply revive as a Lich usually does, in 1d10 days?
You know, I thought death by old age had a clause about not reviving, but it doesn't seem to! It just shows up in the normal methods for returning from death. Hmm.

[Amphetryon]

I'd give the Lich aging benefits but none of the penalties. This isn't based on RAW but my own personal stance that while undeath is preventing the Lich's body from degrading nothing is stopping him from exercising his mental faculties.This really makes me consider the possible benefits of a Half-Orc Lich.

[Rossebay]

You know, I thought death by old age had a clause about not reviving, but it doesn't seem to! It just shows up in the normal methods for returning from death. Hmm.

So, nothing to worry about, hahaha. You just take the physical penalties and all (-6 hurts when a wizard might only have 8 anyway), but you net +3 for your mental and end up fine.

[Callista]

There is also no logical reason why you would not continue to gain mental ability bonuses for aging after venerable.As I see it, undeath is a different sort of existence from regular life.

Re-quoting myself earlier on this thread, because why restate the same thing if I already have--

As an undead creature, a lich isn't alive--it's just preserved. It doesn't grow and change the way living creatures do. Its personality tends to be static and mummified. To grow, you need life. The lich doesn't have that. All it can do is store up more and more information and power. If it grows older, it's only in the same way an embalmed corpse grows older.

Libris Mortis has a similar statement--

Undead exist; they do not live. Life means change, and while undead endure over time and learn new facts, they rarely change or appreciate new paradigms. Aside from a rare few exceptions, an undead outlook remains stagnant over the decades, or centuries, of its existence, despite new experiences and new situations it may encounter... undead can rarely do anything other than what they have always done.I would say, then, that undead who exist for a long time should not gain aging bonuses, because of this tendency to simply petrify rather than growing as a person. Learning from experience, growth, and change, are things that belong to living creatures, not undead.

[TroubleBrewing]

I'm with Callista. It means there's basically no reason you wouldn't want to become a Demilich, because as a regular Lich of extreme age your physical ability scores would most likely be reduced to the single digits anyway. If your undead body is wasting away, make a new, shiny one out of gems and your own skull!

On the other hand, if Liches do NOT gain the bonuses/penalities for aging, then you can stay an undead with hands and fingers and arms and legs just like everybody else. Because hands > no hands.

[Rossebay]

Come to think of it--
Did Wizards mean for a character to continue life as though they had never become a Lich, until old age caught up to them, and they dropped dead?
Suddenly, they find themselves awake once again, laying in the exact same position they were just in, only... Things seemed different.

Since you do come back after dying of old age, provided you have a phylactery, this could have been the original intent.

I think Demilich is supposed to represent a Lich who HAS experienced their physical body eroding to the point that they've become simply a magic-overloaded floating head.

[Callista]

The interesting part of the whole problem to me is that we started out kind of assuming that liches were basically just funny-looking humans, with the same sort of mind as living people. We assume that about lots of fantasy species... drow are just pretty, black-skinned, pointy-eared subterranean humans; orcs are just green-skinned humans with anger-management issues; halflings are just short humans who are lighter on their feet. But if you want a really interesting fantasy world, isn't it better to think about them as having not just different bodies, but fundamentally different minds? I think that's a lot more interesting than just having a bunch of rubber-forehead aliens walking around your campaign setting.

[Rossebay]

The interesting part of the whole problem to me is that we started out kind of assuming that liches were basically just funny-looking humans, with the same sort of mind as living people. We assume that about lots of fantasy species... drow are just pretty, black-skinned, pointy-eared subterranean humans; orcs are just green-skinned humans with anger-management issues; halflings are just short humans who are lighter on their feet. But if you want a really interesting fantasy world, isn't it better to think about them as having not just different bodies, but fundamentally different minds? I think that's a lot more interesting than just having a bunch of rubber-forehead aliens walking around your campaign setting.

Sure, sure, but we're only human. We've only been exposed to one 'type' of thought, if any others do indeed exist. If another species became sentient, then maybe we'd be able to understand a difference in perspective... But we can't.
There's nothing to compare it to, so we're forced to assume that drow are just pretty, black-skinned, pointy-eared humans who live underground.

[Callista]

Not really. We have animals, don't we? They have different brains from humans.

Of course, we make that mistake with animals, too. People will treat their dogs as though they're just furry humans, with really bad results--spoiled, anxious, or even vicious dogs. They're not humans; they're dogs. Treat them like dogs and they'll be happy.

Okay, so a dog isn't sentient, but we can extrapolate. That's what imagination is for.

[Chronos]

Well, when Xykon became a lich (see Start of Darkness, purchasable from that link to the left), it's implied that he lost the penalties to his physical scores (he says "Suck it, arthritis" and does a somersault, and later shows feats of extreme physical strength), but that he did not lose his mental ability bonuses. Xykon was already Venerable when he became a lich, so he doesn't address the question of whether liches continue to change age categories and modify their ability scores, but my guess on that would be "no".

If this is the way it works, then it would be optimal for all liches to remain alive until they hit venerable, and then lichify.

[SiuiS]

Libris Mortis eventually gives *something* (page 11 - they're "changeless and frozen")

That may be where I remember it from. *shrug*
I'm at work, has anyone tried to see if types are listed in the Rules Compendium? I always look to it as a hard-bound errata compilation, and not as it's own book. I distinctly remember seeing, in print/type, the phrase "undead cease to age" or it's equivalent.

(pretty dumb of me to say "distinctly remember" and not have a specific wording in mind though, huh? I'll check when I get home)


Yes, at least according to Ravenloft. And if you can't trust Van Richten about undead, then you can't trust anybody.

This, however, is the best answer. I forgot about those- the benefits of the Ancient Dead, and all. Ravenloft had a much better handle on "Undead are wickedly evil and will kill you" than anything in the WotC's books. I'd be using those values now, if I weren't specifically banned from campaign specific stuff!

[Dr.Epic]

Your skin might decay a little bit, but I don't really think you age. Or maybe your skin just explodes off, and you're a skeleton from now on.:smallwink:

[Parra]

Are there not similar examples (i.e. Timeless Body Monk ability), where you stop physically ageing but your mind still continues to age? I would think that something similar would apply to undead

[TroubleBrewing]

If this is the way it works, then it would be optimal for all liches to remain alive until they hit venerable, and then lichify.

Hence the aforementioned Half-Orc Lich. Their species gets Undead Spellcaster on speed-dial.

[Rossebay]

Are there not similar examples (i.e. Timeless Body Monk ability), where you stop physically ageing but your mind still continues to age? I would think that something similar would apply to undead

You'd think, but I (OP) was talking by RAW. A Lich DOES age. They also just come back after dying of old age.

[Analytica]

As I see it, undeath is a different sort of existence from regular life.

Re-quoting myself earlier on this thread, because why restate the same thing if I already have--


Libris Mortis has a similar statement--
I would say, then, that undead who exist for a long time should not gain aging bonuses, because of this tendency to simply petrify rather than growing as a person. Learning from experience, growth, and change, are things that belong to living creatures, not undead.

Do note, however, that they can gain levels, and increase mental abilities from doing so. This implies some form of potential for change. I agree that it is sensible that they do not get further penalties or bonuses from aging.

I think there was a statted lich in FR: Lords of Darkness or Champions of Ruin, the lord of the Host Tower, who became a lich at a very old age. He was described as suffering from frailty as a result, even as a lich.

As for liches aging as normal by RAW, that is just as stupid as healing by drowning or non-fist proficient monk. If you really want to, do note that undead cannot die, merely be destroyed. So death from old age doesn't matter, as it doesn't say destruction from old age. I think.

[krai]

According to a Dragon magazine the bonuses to mental stats that come from ageing a person adapting to their diminished physical capabilities. So the fact that a lich would not not be adapting to the physical stress of being old means that he/she would never need to develop way to cope with that stress. Of course given a long time to live the lich could be gaining levels indefinitely and gain points to abilities that way.

[Callista]

Sounds realistic to me. As people get older, they get more creative about coping with getting older. As my 81-year-old friend always says, it's not for sissies.

One family took Grandma in for a checkup; they thought she seemed more absent-minded than usual. Other than no longer driving, she was living on her own quite competently. The doctor did some tests and discovered she had early-mid stage Alzheimer's. Most people with that can't live on their own; yet she was doing it just fine. Turns out she had been leaving herself notes on a grand scale... Minute lists of instructions for baking a cake, or making a phone call; sticky notes everywhere. The way she was coping with her memory loss was really quite astonishing and the doctor thinks that she probably slowed the progress of the disease by quite a bit, by staying so mentally active and being so creative.

Old people are tough. You really have to give them a lot of credit. And if you dodge old age by lichifying, you never learn that stuff.

[SiuiS]

So I am going to have to rescind my earlier statement. A quick perusal of the RC shows nothing, and I don't have much access to my hardbound books nowadays. So I'm just not goin to find what I was looking for. Sorry mates.

[Ravens_cry]

Your skin might decay a little bit, but I don't really think you age. Or maybe your skin just explodes off, and you're a skeleton from now on.:smallwink:
Hence why a good lich who likes to be seen by the public wears a ring of gentle repose. Some makeup and perfume, as well as some long, priestly, robes, and good Disguise Check and you are not Xarkon the Lich, but Xarkon the Undying!

[DarkestKnight]

Fluff wise i'd say lichs would accrue more knowledge and progress through age categories. that aside, i will admit to being a hypocrtite-apotamus and say i would never allow lichs, of any kind, to gain bonuses from long term existence. why? because i can think of a creature that gets more powerful the longer it lives. Dracolich anyone?

[Talya]

A venerable wizard who becomes a lich would lose the -6 penalty to CON at the very least. ;)

Actually, I like the flavor there. This decrepit, dusty monstrosity can hardly move it is so physically weak and clumsy. It requires magic just to go about your day to day activities. (Belt of giant strength and gloves of dexterity...oh hell, you're a venerable lich...probably epic anyway. Grab those epic bracers of +12 to str/dex.) But why not? Dark magic already fuels your very existence. This is not a huge change.

[SowZ]

I would also say no, it doesn't. As an undead creature, a lich isn't alive--it's just preserved. It doesn't grow and change the way living creatures do. Its personality tends to be static and mummified. To grow, you need life. The lich doesn't have that. All it can do is store up more and more information and power. If it grows older, it's only in the same way an embalmed corpse grows older.

That undead stasis means there's a lot to be said for Reincarnation abuse as a source of immortality. Even if you will eventually have Inevitables on your tail for it.

The odd thing about inevitables, to me, is that by the time you piss them off enough for them to come after you you are usually tough enough to deal with it. Either through a fortress that their abilities cannot penetrate or by just being stronger/having better allies.

[Drachasor]

Offtopic: Every time I read this title of this thread "but does it blend?" goes through my head.

Now I am thinking about Blade Barrier and how many times you can force a creature to go through it in one turn.

[Amphetryon]

Fluff wise i'd say lichs would accrue more knowledge and progress through age categories. that aside, i will admit to being a hypocrtite-apotamus and say i would never allow lichs, of any kind, to gain bonuses from long term existence. why? because i can think of a creature that gets more powerful the longer it lives. Dracolich anyone?

Great Wyrm Dragon says hai. :smalltongue:

[SowZ]

Offtopic: Every time I read this title of this thread "but does it blend?" goes through my head.

Now I am thinking about Blade Barrier and how many times you can force a creature to go through it in one turn.

Of course, Blade Barrier/Whirlwind combo has a max of two passes in a turn but if you are more patient, (can wait a few turns to put them through multiple times,) multiple passes is pretty fun.

[Callista]

The odd thing about inevitables, to me, is that by the time you piss them off enough for them to come after you you are usually tough enough to deal with it. Either through a fortress that their abilities cannot penetrate or by just being stronger/having better allies.The average DM will take this into account and adjust the Inevitables' power levels. I know I would. :) Otherwise, it'd just be a curb-stomp battle and boring for everybody involved.