Maximizing HP

[EnnPeeCee]

I thought it would be fun to figure out how get the most HP on a single character in 20 levels. Its an optimization that I can't recall seeing anywhere on the net. This isn't for anything, so there is no need to make the character actually DO anything.

My instincts tell me it starts something along the lines of this:
Dragonborn Mongrelfolk
Slow Trait
Barbarian 2/Stoneblessed 3/Dwarf Paragon 3
Improved Toughness

The rules I set out at the start: (could be swayed from these)
All official books
No LA buyoff
No infinite loops (I know Shambling Mound can get arbitrarily high CON)
1 Trait, 2 Flaws
Max HP per HD
Theoretical 18 in all stats

Any additional input on this?

[TroubleBrewing]

Barbarian 2/Stoneblessed 3/Dwarf Paragon 3/Deepwarden 2/Warblade 10? If you get max HP per level, just make sure you pick a d12 class for every level, pump all your scores into Con and hope for the best.

I'd suggest Fist of the Forest for Con to AC twice, but they get d8s.

Grab the Steadfast Determination feat for sure, though. Unless all you want is HP, then you want Imp. Toughness once and Toughness for the rest of your feats. But then ALL you have is HP.

[EnnPeeCee]

Yeah, d12 are a must unless the class also boosts CON.

I'm trying to figure out right now whether taking a template like Mineral Warrior would be worth it. More CON, but less HD.

[Zaq]

Renegade Mastermakers (Magic of Eberron) get HP for every attached component they have. ECS pg. 268 says that any magic item can be made as a warforged component. Blessed Bandages are 10 gp a pop. Have fun.

[candycorn]

Yeah, d12 are a must unless the class also boosts CON.

I'm trying to figure out right now whether taking a template like Mineral Warrior would be worth it. More CON, but less HD.

+1 LA is worth it for a +4 con modifier or greater, unless you're:

using average hp/die roll and your bonus to the die roll is greater than 32
or
using maximum hp/die roll and your bonus to the die roll is greater than 26.

Regardless, +1 LA will not be better than 1 class level if the con bonus is only +2.

Generally, you'll want +4-6 con per LA, to make it worthwhile.

[EnnPeeCee]

Renegade Mastermakers (Magic of Eberron) get HP for every attached component they have. ECS pg. 268 says that any magic item can be made as a warforged component. Blessed Bandages are 10 gp a pop. Have fun.

Interesting, but essentially an infinite loop. I'm going to try making this without resorting to tricks like that.


+1 LA is worth it for a +4 con modifier or greater, unless you're:

using average hp/die roll and your bonus to the die roll is greater than 32
or
using maximum hp/die roll and your bonus to the die roll is greater than 26.

Regardless, +1 LA will not be better than 1 class level if the con bonus is only +2.

Generally, you'll want +4-6 con per LA, to make it worthwhile.

I put together a quick excel sheet, and what it looked like to me that was around a modifier of +20 or less, going from 20HD to 19 was worth the +2 modifier by a small amount. Above a modifier of around +50, it would be decrease in health to take it.

So I guess it'll all depend on how high the CON can actually get.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Interesting, but essentially an infinite loop. I'm going to try making this without resorting to tricks like that.It's limited by WBL. It's not even an arbitrarily high loop... just a trick. Speaking of dirty tricks, do temporary hit points count?

[HunterOfJello]

There are probably optimized options for playing a Necropolitan with boosted Cha. That would make any level you take in any class give you a d12.

Actually, I can't remember if all undead get Cha bonus to hp or that was just one type of undead i recently read about...

[TroubleBrewing]

Speaking of dirty tricks, do temporary hit points count?

My immediate first thought was "VIGOR", but I don't think that's within the spirit of the rules. :smalltongue:

[Lord.Sorasen]

In Dragon Mag, Faerie Initiative or whatever gives you INT to hp. That could certainly be worth something given a 32 point buy and a 20 maximum or whatever.

[Urpriest]

There are probably optimized options for playing a Necropolitan with boosted Cha. That would make any level you take in any class give you a d12.

Actually, I can't remember if all undead get Cha bonus to hp or that was just one type of undead i recently read about...

Just a few specific types, Necropolitans not among them. I could see a Walker in the Waste working for this though.

[Amphetryon]

A long while back - I'm not going to necro the thread - there was a 1st level character contest. Someone managed to combine flaws and templates to make an ECL 1 character with over 100 HP. That seems a good start.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

From a weird perspective, you're best beat is going Walker in the Waste or some form of undead.

Walker in the Waste has a nice bonus, especially for Archivists. Use Faerie Mysteries Initiate to ignore your CON bonus for HP, using INT in place of it for every level ever. Become a Dry Lich via Walker in the Waste 10, allowing you to also add your CHA bonus to HP per level.

Average HP per level goes to 6.5+INT mod+CHA mod. You could add another 2 per level via undead crating feats, too.

[candycorn]

From a weird perspective, you're best beat is going Walker in the Waste or some form of undead.

Walker in the Waste has a nice bonus, especially for Archivists. Use Faerie Mysteries Initiate to ignore your CON bonus for HP, using INT in place of it for every level ever. Become a Dry Lich via Walker in the Waste 10, allowing you to also add your CHA bonus to HP per level.

Average HP per level goes to 6.5+INT mod+CHA mod. You could add another 2 per level via undead crating feats, too.

Add on gestalt and evolved undead?

[Alleine]

In Masters of the Wild there are feats that are basically toughness for higher levels. Take toughness until your base fort save is +5 and then switch to Dwarf's Toughness for +6 hp each time you take it. Then Giant's Toughness at a base fort of 8 for +9 hp each time. Finally Dragon's Toughness at base fort 11 for +12 hp each time you take it.

[TroubleBrewing]

Ehhhhh let's avoid Gestalt. It's sort of an obvious win button in this instance.

[Taelas]

Candycorn, there's still a difference at Con 64 vs. Con 60 (or +27 vs. +25): 19 x 12+27 vs. 20 x 12+25 is 741 vs. 740.

At Con 66 vs. Con 62, they are equalized; greater than that, and the LA is not worth it.

Also, the +2 Con bonus would be worth it if your total Con is less than 26; at 26 vs. 24 (or +8 vs. +7), the bonus is equalized again (19 x 12+8 vs. 20 x 12+7 -- in other words, 19 x 20 vs. 20 x 19). Of course, that doesn't come into play here.

[noparlpf]

Dry Lich gets Cha to hit points instead of Con (because they don't have Con if I recall correctly). On the other hand, then you don't get Con, so why bother?

Take Barbarian 20, pump Con as high as you can, take the Slow trait, take Improved Toughness, and then take Toughness lots of times.
Alternatively, UA Warrior gets d10 HD and lots of feats. I think that might let you get more hit points in the long run because you get more Toughnesses.

Edit: By the bye, I totally just pulled that out of my ear. I haven't put any thought into it for races or anything.

[SiuiS]

<CHA> to hp is not a standard undead trait. Too bad though...

Incarnum! Two feats (shape soulmeld, extra essentia capacity(?)), a functionally slotless(?) item, and a source of 5 more essentia nets you your level times 6 in free HP. So that's what, another 120?

I'm away from the book though, so I may have my numbers off. Shape solmeld should give you the meld, and a meldshaper level equal to ECL/Hitdice. Extra essentia or whatever increases the capacity by 1 (from four to 5 at 20th level) and the invasion focus item takes up no slot, prevents the soulmeld from taking up a slot, and either increases capacity by one (from 5 to 6) or just gives you the benefits of an extra point above/beyond normal.

If you can find a way to ape class features, gaining the Incarnate's increased capacity class feature nets you an additional 20 HPs eah time you pull it off.

[Glimbur]

<CHA> to hp is not a standard undead trait. Too bad though...

Incarnum! Two feats (shape soulmeld, extra essentia capacity(?)), a functionally slotless(?) item, and a source of 5 more essentia nets you your level times 6 in free HP. So that's what, another 120?

I'm away from the book though, so I may have my numbers off. Shape solmeld should give you the meld, and a meldshaper level equal to ECL/Hitdice. Extra essentia or whatever increases the capacity by 1 (from four to 5 at 20th level) and the invasion focus item takes up no slot, prevents the soulmeld from taking up a slot, and either increases capacity by one (from 5 to 6) or just gives you the benefits of an extra point above/beyond normal.

If you can find a way to ape class features, gaining the Incarnate's increased capacity class feature nets you an additional 20 HPs eah time you pull it off.

Shape Soulmeld gives you a meldshaper level equal to half your character level. That cuts your gains in half unless you want to go Incarnate 20, which has a smaller hit die than some other options.

[TroubleBrewing]

That cuts your gains in half unless you want to go Incarnate 20, which has a smaller hit die than some most other options.

Incarnates get d6, which is only bested by the d4 for "smallest hit die". :smalltongue:

[Person_Man]

Shape Soulmeld gives you a meldshaper level equal to half your character level. That cuts your gains in half unless you want to go Incarnate 20, which has a smaller hit die than some other options.

Yup. So the most hit points you'll get will be from an Incarnate 20 using the Vitality Belt soulmeld with maximum essentia. The maximum essentia capacity of any soulmeld is 8 (4 from hit die, 2 from Incarnate class ability, 1 from a magic item, 1 from a feat). So you're getting a maximum of +160 hit points.

Alternatively or in addition, you can take the Heart of Incarnum feat, which gives you bonus hit points equal to your essentia pool. Normally it's basically Improved Toughness. But a Necrocarnate can drain essentia from the souls of the recently dead, which theoretically gives you a massive pool of essentia/hit points (assuming you have a massive pile of recently dead creatures).

Another fun trick would be to use Shield Self or Share Pain or something similar, which would shift 50% of your damage to another target, basically giving you 50% more hit points.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

War Hulk also has a d12 HD, and gets Toughness as a bonus feat several times.

So, Warblade/Warhulk (from a Large size race), or a Goliath Barb (pouncing, mountain rage)/Warblade/Warhulk.

[candycorn]

Candycorn, there's still a difference at Con 64 vs. Con 60 (or +27 vs. +25): 19 x 12+27 vs. 20 x 12+25 is 741 vs. 740.

At Con 66 vs. Con 62, they are equalized; greater than that, and the LA is not worth it.

Also, the +2 Con bonus would be worth it if your total Con is less than 26; at 26 vs. 24 (or +8 vs. +7), the bonus is equalized again (19 x 12+8 vs. 20 x 12+7 -- in other words, 19 x 20 vs. 20 x 19). Of course, that doesn't come into play here.

I didn't clarify the upper and lower bounds because I doubted that Con 62+ would be attained under the terms of this challenge (i.e. no arbitrary loops), and, if it was, it would be in a way which did not alter HP (polymorph/etc).

I also didn't clarify the threshold wherein Con +2 was worthwhile because I knew that even a halfhearted attempt will get more than 26 con.

Case in point:
Dragonborn mongrelfolk with 18 base in con is 24, at level 1.
+6 enhancement = 30 con
+5 from levels = 35 con
+5 inherent = 40 con (+15 modifier).

So yes, while your statement is technically accurate, in the case of +2 Con, it is also meaningless data. Unless someone gets over 62 Con in a way that allows con to contribute to AC, your other is meaningless.

And, to simplify your formulas, you don't need to calculate total HP. Just the differences.

+2 con has +19 HP (+1 hp/level for 19 levels), whereas the other has d12+x hp (maximized by challenge terms). This shows that the two results are equal where X (con modifier before the template)=7.

+4 con has +38 HP (+2 hp/level for 19 levels), whereas the other has d12+x HP (maximized by challenge terms). This shows that the two results are equal where X (con modifier before the template)=26. If you can get a con modifier higher than +26, then +4 con isn't worth it.

+6 con has +57 HP (+3 hp/level for 19 levels), whereas the other has d12+x HP (maximized by challenge terms). This shows that the two results are equal where X (con modifier before the template)=45. If you can get a con modifier higher than +45, then +6 con isn't worth it.

The formula to find the balance point is 12z + x = 19(y/2), where y is the con score increase, X is the modifier score of the untemplated creature, and Z is the LA cost of the template.

So, if we wanted to find the threshold of a +3 LA template that gave +10 Constitution?

19 * (10/2) = 12*3 + x
80 = x + 36
x = 44.

Therefore, such a template would be worth it, provided your Con modifier prior to the template was no more than 44.

Perfectly accurate, and yet, that is irrelevant, if a Con score of 98 cannot be reached.

[kaiserthe3rd]

What about a venerable Dragonwrought Kobold? If agree with the whole can take epic feats things then drop a few epic toughness on there.

[TroubleBrewing]

I think that falls under "no fringe-legality" rules. :smallannoyed:

[candycorn]

War Hulk also has a d12 HD, and gets Toughness as a bonus feat several times.

So, Warblade/Warhulk (from a Large size race), or a Goliath Barb (pouncing, mountain rage)/Warblade/Warhulk.

Goliath is a +1 LA race, though.
+2 Con is not worth the increase, unless the offset from toughness of +9 HP makes up for the con modifier of the lost level. That will be true, provided Con cannot be otherwise raised above 42.

On a side note, Stoneblessed + Paragon Dwarf results in lowered hit die. Every level of a D8 hit die requires 4 HP to be made up. Every d10 level requires 2hp. The requirement means that 18 hp need to be made up. Provided you have at least 19 HD, you're coming out ahead. So, a dragonborn mongrelfolk will benefit from SB/Paragon dwarf, boosting its con to 42 (+16), which means that warhulk is now out of the picture for providing extra toughness.

So, we're looking at: DB Mongrelfolk, 42 con.

d12 HD classes 14 / d8 Stoneblessed 3 / d10 Paragon Dwarf 3
This gives base HP of 222.
Con bonus HP are 320.
Total so far: 542 hp.

Slow Trait = +20 hp.
Improved Toughness Feat = +20 HP
Toughness x8 = +24 HP
Total: 606 hp.

This assumes 2 flaws, both of which grant a feat. It assumes that of your 9 feats, 8 are toughness, and one is improved toughness. Bonus feats from classes could boost this higher.

So far, this is above 7/10 Core great wyrm Dragons, by listed entry. Cresting 660 will put it above 9/10. Can we do it?

[Tyndmyr]

There is no fringe legality about DW kobold. It def works. That said, kobold is not a fantastic race for con. Im not sure it'll win in the end.


In Masters of the Wild there are feats that are basically toughness for higher levels. Take toughness until your base fort save is +5 and then switch to Dwarf's Toughness for +6 hp each time you take it. Then Giant's Toughness at a base fort of 8 for +9 hp each time. Finally Dragon's Toughness at base fort 11 for +12 hp each time you take it.

Improved Toughness is win compared to Toughness.

That said, a level of fighter with toughness as the bonus feat beats a D12 class.

Assuming an 18 base con, and a racial con bonus of +2(warforged or dwarf, whatever. Lots of LA 0 options)...also, average hp after first level.

20 levels of barb.

+6 ehancement bonus to con, +5 inherent bonus to same, all level bumps into con.

hp from HD: 135.5

End con: 34(42 when raged. We'll be raged).

hp from con bonus: 320

hp from slow trait: 20

1: Imp Toughness
Flaw: Toughness
Flaw: Toughness
3: Toughness
5: Dwarven Toughness
9: Dwarven Toughness
12: Giant's Toughness
15: Giant's Toughness
18: Dragon's Toughness

hp from feats: 71

Total hp with no gear other than a stock con booster: 546.5

That's a relatively low-op attempt...I feel certain we can bust a thousand.

[Provengreil]

would 1 class level in a d4 HD class be worth it for an extra +2 CON? because if so, one level of sorc could let you into dragon disciple. the 8 STR would also be nice for a primary melee class, probably worth the BAB penalty of 4(3 for DD, 1 for sorc). I know it's not a great class in general, but it does seem to fit the bill here.

[Amphetryon]

would 1 class level in a d4 HD class be worth it for an extra +2 CON? because if so, one level of sorc could let you into dragon disciple. the 8 STR would also be nice for a primary melee class, probably worth the BAB penalty of 4(3 for DD, 1 for sorc). I know it's not a great class in general, but it does seem to fit the bill here.
It'd be more worth it if you couldn't use any of the list-casters, with their d6 HD, to qualify for DrDisc.

[maximus25]

would 1 class level in a d4 HD class be worth it for an extra +2 CON? because if so, one level of sorc could let you into dragon disciple. the 8 STR would also be nice for a primary melee class, probably worth the BAB penalty of 4(3 for DD, 1 for sorc). I know it's not a great class in general, but it does seem to fit the bill here.

Better yet, be a battle sorcerer, d8 hit die, not much more hp but it's still something, if you don't really care about spells and junk.

[Provengreil]

It'd be more worth it if you couldn't use any of the list-casters, with their d6 HD, to qualify for DrDisc.

oh, right. i always forget you can get in with any spontaneous caster, not just sorc. still, would the 2 CON be worth it, since we're prizing HP over all else?

[Dragonsoul]

If your going w/o Items,....
EDIT:Forgot you get ability increase as you level up
Con 18+4 Racial+2 DP+8 Rage+5 Forsaker+8 VoP+4 Dwarven Defender+5 Level up
Dragonborn Dwarf
Vow of Peace/Lightning Reflexes
Barbarian 1/Dwarf Paragon 1/Barbarian 1/Dwarf Paragon 2/Forsaker 5/Barbarian 5/ Bear Warrior 5/Dwarven Defender 1/Fighter 1

Con 54 --> +22

18xD12+2x D10=236+(20x22)=676


1: Vow Of Peace
Flaw: Lightning Relfexes
Flaw: Iron Will
3: Great Fortitude
5: Dwarf Toughness (+6)
9: Giant Toughness (+9)
12:Dragon Toughness(+12)
15: Dragon Toughness (+12)
18: Dragon Toughness (+12)
Fighter:Dragon Toughness (+12)
Slow Trait: +20 Total =83

Final Total=759

[Dr.Epic]

Go fighter and take nothing but toughness.:smalltongue:

[candycorn]

oh, right. i always forget you can get in with any spontaneous caster, not just sorc. still, would the 2 CON be worth it, since we're prizing HP over all else?

Yes, it would be.
d8 hd costs you 4 hp. +2 con nets you +1 hp per HD.

DB Mongrelfolk

18 base con + 6 enhancement +5 level + 5 inherent +4 mongrelfolk + 2 dragonborn + 2 Paragon dwarf + 2 dragon disciple = 44 Con.

d12 HD classes 7 / d8 battle sorceror 1 / d12 Dragon disciple 6 / d8 Stoneblessed 3 / d10 Paragon Dwarf 3
This gives base HP of 218.
Con bonus HP are 340.
Total so far: 558 hp.

Slow Trait = +20 hp.
Improved Toughness Feat = +20 HP
Toughness x8 = +24 HP
Total: 622 hp, so far.

[Tyndmyr]

would 1 class level in a d4 HD class be worth it for an extra +2 CON? because if so, one level of sorc could let you into dragon disciple. the 8 STR would also be nice for a primary melee class, probably worth the BAB penalty of 4(3 for DD, 1 for sorc). I know it's not a great class in general, but it does seem to fit the bill here.

Possibly. However, he advantage in going Barb 20 is the +8 con from rage.

So...you need a lot of con to overcome that.

Edit: So...everyone's assuming max rolls on hit die, eh? In that case, my straight barb has 651.

[candycorn]

Possibly. However, he advantage in going Barb 20 is the +8 con from rage.

So...you need a lot of con to overcome that.

I'm going for constant bonuses, not temporary boosts. Still Paragon dwarf is +2 (6 levels to get), Dragon disciple 6 is +2 (7 levels to get). That leaves 7 class levels open... Choosing Barbarian will get rage at +4 con, which will be a temp boost to 662 hp, while raging (22 rounds per rage).

Your 651 hp barb only has 571 hp most of the day.

[Dragonsoul]

Tweaked up to 759 hps, No magic Items,but +13 Bonus is tricky to get outside of epic with Magic Items.

[Cieyrin]

Go fighter and take nothing but toughness.:smalltongue:

Problem: Toughness is not on the Fighter bonus feat list. :smalltongue: It's a general feat, so you have to suck that up with more general bonus feats.

Also, if we're doing items, there are grafts and symbiots out there that give non-enhancement bonuses to Con, specifically Silithar Bones (LoM), Gut Worm and Strong Leg (FF) and the Living Breastplate (ECS), as well as Deformity(Obese) trading Dex for Con, though that may not be worthwhile due to needing Willing Deformity first.

[Dragonsoul]

Can Vow of Poverty devotees get Grafts? They aren't magic items si by strict RAW I think they may be allowed...

[Amphetryon]

Can Vow of Poverty devotees get Grafts? They aren't magic items si by strict RAW I think they may be allowed...

How are they paying for them?

[Dragonsoul]

As a gift for Slaying <Insert Gribbly here>.

[Devmaar]

Drop 2 copies of Toughness for Vile Deformity and Deformity:Obese, +2 Con gives more hp over 20 levels

[Provengreil]

How are they paying for them?

the party donates to get them put on. you can then accept them.

[candycorn]

Good point. -2 toughness for deformity: 642 hp. Rages to 682 hp.

The big problem with grafts is that they generally grant inherent bonuses, which don't stack with the +5 to stat from wish/tome.

[faceroll]

From a weird perspective, you're best beat is going Walker in the Waste or some form of undead.

Walker in the Waste has a nice bonus, especially for Archivists. Use Faerie Mysteries Initiate to ignore your CON bonus for HP, using INT in place of it for every level ever. Become a Dry Lich via Walker in the Waste 10, allowing you to also add your CHA bonus to HP per level.

Average HP per level goes to 6.5+INT mod+CHA mod. You could add another 2 per level via undead crating feats, too.

With the proper tricks, you could enter that class as a UA specialist wizard(necromancer) or a dread necromancer, pick up corpsecrafting, and perform the rite in a desecrated area. That nets you +6hp/level.

Race should be magic blooded unseelie fey lesser aasimar, for +6 charisma (another +3 HP/level). Go with old age for a starting charisma of 26. Item, lich, tome, levels gets you up to 44.

HP looks like 20d12 + 120 (corpsecrafting, etc) + 340 (charisma), for an average of 595 HP.

Feats can get you a bit more, especially if you use the ones in the 3.0 Masters of the Wild with like +20 HP.

[edit]
With max dice rolls I've got 700 HP. Slow trait for 720. Improved Toughness for 740. Grab Righteous Aura (Paladin 4, SpC) for +4 sacred bonus to charisma (lasts 1hr/lvl). That's 780 HP.

[Dragonsoul]

Okay this only works on a character with a "Redemption" Storyline, It does use both vile feat and an Exalted feat, you have to be evil to take Vile Feats, but unlike Exalted feats you don't automatically lose the feat by beoming non-evil(You could fluff it as a Devil who is keeping to his contract)

If your going w/o Items,....
EDIT:Forgot you get ability increase as you level up
Con 18+4 Racial+2 DP+8 Rage+5 Forsaker+8 VoP+4 Dwarven Defender+5 Level up +2 Deformity +2 Graft
Dragonborn Dwarf
Vow of Peace/Lightning Reflexes
Barbarian 1/Dwarf Paragon 1/Barbarian 1/Dwarf Paragon 2/Forsaker 5/Barbarian 5/ Bear Warrior 5/Dwarven Defender 1/Fighter 1

Con 58 --> +24

18xD12+2x D10=236+(20x24)=816


1: Willing Deformity
Flaw: Lightning Relfexes
Flaw: Iron Will
3: Great Fortitude
5: Deformity(Obese)
9: Power Attack
12:Sacred Vow
15: Vow of Poverty
18: Dragon Toughness (+12)
Fighter:Dragon Toughness (+12)
Slow Trait: +20 Total = 42 hp
Grafts(Obtained before Vow of Poverty if you want to be pedantic)
Silthilar Bones +2 Unnamed

858hp, I'm Sure I can do better, but for now, this is the best I can do,I'mjust happy that Vow of Poverty was Finally good for something

[faceroll]

Reckless Rage will increase you rage bonuses to str & con by +2.

[Alleine]

Barbarian 1/Dwarf Paragon 1/Barbarian 1/Dwarf Paragon 2/Forsaker 5/Barbarian 5/ Bear Warrior 5/Dwarven Defender 1/Fighter 1

Is that 22 level you've got in there?

[Dragonsoul]

Is that 22 level you've got in there?

Oops..that's what I get for Playing around with the Levels, yeah you just knock to levels of Barbarian off, The rage bonuses are Replaced by Beariness

[faceroll]

You know Forsaker has no restriction on using psionics? Transparency doesn't apply in this case, as the forsaker's rules are tied to a prestige class and transparency only generally applies for spells and effects.

[Paul H]

Hi

What about Synthesist?

You 'wear' your Eidolon, keeping it's physical stats & abilities, and add its HP to your own.

Thanks
Paul H
Edit: Just done some maths...
Synthesist (D8's) 'wearing' Eidolon (D10's). Evolutions (10 pts Huge Biped. 12 pts Con+6). All stat increases to Con, Belt +6 Con, Tomes +5 Con.

Synthesist: 500HP + Eidolon 405 HP = 905HP :smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

UMD or dip a casting class for a spell for temporary HP. Empowerd maximized false life (or a better 4th level spell in spell compendium, I forget the name) to get it all day or go psionic to get vigor for a shorter duration but larger HP pool.

[EnnPeeCee]

Oh cool, glad to see this is still going. Lots of good ideas going around. I'll admit, I don't recognize a lot of the material being used, but that's why I posted this here. I'll see if I can catch up, so I can contribute more.

[Lans]

Shape soulmeld+extra essentia+2 other incarnum feats for +40hp

Their is a wintery template that gives +2 con for no LA from dragon magazine

[Dragonsoul]

Yeah but 4xDragon's Toughness is 48 Hp so its not worth it.

[Qwertystop]

Those of you who are doing various things to boost CON for this: Do CON boosts (including from levels 4, 8, etc.) add HP retroactively?

[Dragonsoul]

Yes, they do, it makes the maths sooo much easier.

On that note, anyone want to try and max out Skill Points? That would be a headache to tot up.

[Qwertystop]

Yes, they do, it makes the maths sooo much easier.

On that note, anyone want to try and max out Skill Points? That would be a headache to tot up.

Simple:
Figure out what you can do to get INT boosts, and mix that with high-skill-point classes. Human is probably best for the bonus skill points, unless another race is required to get some INT boosts. There isn't anything else to get more skill points, is there?

[Dragonsoul]

Well it was more of a comment on the fact that Skill points aren't gained retroactively,so trying to figure out the final total would be involve a lot more busy work.

[ericgrau]

Simple:
Figure out what you can do to get INT boosts, and mix that with high-skill-point classes. Human is probably best for the bonus skill points, unless another race is required to get some INT boosts. There isn't anything else to get more skill points, is there?

Well you might want an LA race with a big int boost.

For example:
int 18 human/gray elf rogue = 23 x (8+5) = 299
spellwarped human rogue = 20 x (8+7) = 300
Hmm, nevermind :smalltongue:. Man cha is a lot easier to find than int, there's just too much LA on the int races & templates.

[faceroll]

Simple:
Figure out what you can do to get INT boosts, and mix that with high-skill-point classes. Human is probably best for the bonus skill points, unless another race is required to get some INT boosts. There isn't anything else to get more skill points, is there?

Swordsage1/rogue 19 venerable dragonwrought kobold with spellhoarding and riddled templates.

[Tyndmyr]

I'm going for constant bonuses, not temporary boosts. Still Paragon dwarf is +2 (6 levels to get), Dragon disciple 6 is +2 (7 levels to get). That leaves 7 class levels open... Choosing Barbarian will get rage at +4 con, which will be a temp boost to 662 hp, while raging (22 rounds per rage).

Your 651 hp barb only has 571 hp most of the day.

Admittedly. But it's an exercise in maximums, not practicality.

That said, I could chaos shuffle the feats, I suppose, resulting in 6 more feats becoming draconic toughness. That adds 36 flat, for a total of 607 normal, 687 when raged.

Looks like someone did much better already, though. But, the chaos shuffle could likely help a few builds.

Edit: Feats keep working if you lose the prereqs, right? So, you could chaos shuffle the imp toughness to draconic toughness, then toughness to imp toughness. Freebie 9 more.

[Amphetryon]

Edit: Feats keep working if you lose the prereqs, right? So, you could chaos shuffle the imp toughness to draconic toughness, then toughness to imp toughness. Freebie 9 more.That depends on the feat, I think. In many cases, like Combat Expertise, you retain the feat but can't use it, if I remember right. I don't recall a specific RAW ruling on shuffling through the various toughnesses for HP cheese.

[Lans]

Yeah but 4xDragon's Toughness is 48 Hp so its not worth it.

You can't take Dragons toughness till 6th level at the earliest

[Cieyrin]

The big problem with grafts is that they generally grant inherent bonuses, which don't stack with the +5 to stat from wish/tome.

I guess I was incorrect on them being typeless except for the Silithar Bones, which are indeed typeless. On the other hand, the Gut Worm and Strong Leg are cheaper than the equivalent Manual. Having both is about 18k, the equivalent Manual is 110k or that many Wishes, which'd cost ~106k. You just have to deal with the drawbacks of the graft trying to drive you insane or evil if you're not strong of will or already evil. Nothing Steadfast Determination can't deal with but a way to make a nat 1 not fail on the Will save would probably be good.

[Tyndmyr]

There's a luck feat for that, but it eats one of your feat slots. Meh.

[faceroll]

Edit: Feats keep working if you lose the prereqs, right? So, you could chaos shuffle the imp toughness to draconic toughness, then toughness to imp toughness. Freebie 9 more.

No.


sgdfiagiblsgga

[Dragonsoul]

I guess I was incorrect on them being typeless except for the Silithar Bones, which are indeed typeless. On the other hand, the Gut Worm and Strong Leg are cheaper than the equivalent Manual. Having both is about 18k, the equivalent Manual is 110k or that many Wishes, which'd cost ~106k. You just have to deal with the drawbacks of the graft trying to drive you insane or evil if you're not strong of will or already evil. Nothing Steadfast Determination can't deal with but a way to make a nat 1 not fail on the Will save would probably be good.

Its only a bit Wis Damage, you can sleep it off easily.

[Tyndmyr]

No.


sgdfiagiblsgga

Source?

sgdfiagiblsgga

[faceroll]

Source?

sgdfiagiblsgga

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#prerequisites

[Tyndmyr]

That would do it...unless we want to get pedantic over "use" as opposed to static bonuses, but that would probably be getting into ridiculous territory anyhow.

So...how bout collecting feats by other means, and chaos shuffling them? I'm perfectly ok with not using any one means of gaining a feat more than once.

[faceroll]

That would do it...unless we want to get pedantic over "use" as opposed to static bonuses, but that would probably be getting into ridiculous territory anyhow.

So...how bout collecting feats by other means, and chaos shuffling them? I'm perfectly ok with not using any one means of gaining a feat more than once.

In that case, you can have X number of feats where X is equal to your XP/800 (cost of one round of Chaos Shuffle).

Weapons of Legacy, Rod of Alertness, a Familiar, all give you a feat that you shuffle out, and immediately have again. Or Otyugh Hole. Plenty of ways to do that.

[Cieyrin]

My favorite use of the Chaos Shuffle is swearing to an Elder Evil for free feats and then shuffling them into what you really want, so you can say you got your skills by making a dark deal. In this case, you got your Durability from your Dark Deal.

[faceroll]

Hmmmm, should look into that....

[Tyndmyr]

In that case, you can have X number of feats where X is equal to your XP/800 (cost of one round of Chaos Shuffle).

Weapons of Legacy, Rod of Alertness, a Familiar, all give you a feat that you shuffle out, and immediately have again. Or Otyugh Hole. Plenty of ways to do that.

Yup.

I believe the dark pact was what, five feats? If we say, swear allegiance to every elder evil(possible hilarious repercussions of this aside), that gets us a large source of non-evil feats.

And we can pay people to cast spells for us, presumably. Or craft scrolls. So, if WBL is more expendable than XP, that's an option.

[Talbot]

Dragon Warrior (from Dragon 298) is a ten level D10 prestige class that adds your Wis to your HP for each level you take of it. Taking it as a Venerable Necropolitan X (where X is a race that boosts Int/Wis as much as possible) with Faerie Mysteries Initiate would give you that D12 HD with two good stats added on top of it. If you figure some way to stick Unholy Toughness on there, you can add your Cha as well.

[faceroll]

Dragon Warrior (from Dragon 298) is a ten level D10 prestige class that adds your Wis to your HP for each level you take of it. Taking it as a Venerable Necropolitan X (where X is a race that boosts Int/Wis as much as possible) with Faerie Mysteries Initiate would give you that D12 HD with two good stats added on top of it. If you figure some way to stick Unholy Toughness on there, you can add your Cha as well.

Is Unholy Toughness Ex or Su? Cause then you could pick it up with a Shapechange.

[vampire2948]

So, here's my idea.


The Build:
Changeling Focused Animal Variant Druid Druid 1 / Shapeshifter 10 / Psion (Shaper) 1 / Beastmaster 1 / Master of Many Forms 7


Focused Animal Variant - +2 to effective druid level for animal companion, loses wildshape.
Shapeshifter - Oriental Adventures, grants Wildshape 3/day. I qualify with my changeling alternate form ability.
Beastmaster - Complete Adventurer - +3 to effective druid level for animal companion
Psion (Shaper) - Use Psionic Device as a class skill.

Skills:

Use Psionic Device Max'd at 20 ranks.
Psicraft 5 ranks grants +2 synergy bonus to Use Psionic Device.
Psionic Affinity Feat grants another +2.
Handle Animal 20 ranks.

+14 total skill mod without attribute modifier.

Since everyone else assumed they had an 18 in Con, I'll assume I have an 18 in Cha for base stat.

18 + 5 [Wish Book] + 6 [Cloak of Cha] + 5 [Attributes From Leveling to 20] = 34, skill modifier of +12.

Giving total of +36 to Use Psionic Device.

Allows me to activate a Psionic Item of Caster Level 15 without fail, except for a 1.



Feats:
Two Flaws

Natural Bond x7 [+3 to Effective Druid Level for my animal companion. Only grants +1 due to HD limit. Deals with loss due to Shapeshifter. Grants a total of 22 effective druid levels for my companion's abilities.]
Psionic Affinity
Skill Focus [Handle Animal]



Okay. That's the essentials of the build. The rest can be filled randomly.



Animal Companion:
Effective Druid Level 25
For chosen animal companion, effective druid level is 10. So +6 Bonus HD

Magebred, Warbeast, Dungeonbred [Dungeonscape] Triceratops.

Large Size due to Dungeonbred.

Con Bonuses : +4 From Dungeonbred, +4 From Magebred [Also makes it purple!], +3 from Warbeast.
+6 magic item of +6 Con, +5 from having five wishes cast on it.
Total Con : 25+4+4+3+6+5=47 For a mod of +18

HP : 22d8+396.
For average HP per HD, that gives me : 495 hp on my triceratops.

Naturally, that's not all.

Cast Awaken from an item on the Triceratops and it gains an int score, and +2 HD.

Making the HP now : 540 for average HP, or 608 for max HP per HD.

Take Toughness twice, and Improved Toughness seven times.
Granting an additional 2(3)+7(24) HP = 174

Total of 714 with average HP, or 782 for Max HP per HD.



The Druid:

Assume 18 Con. Add an item of +6 Con, +5 Book of Wishes Thing. End with 29 constitution. Mod of +9.


Can wildshape into something with 17 HD or less. Second Triceratops, I choose you!

So my druid has 16d8+268 = 340 average, 396 maxed.



Now the reason I included Psionics, one of my favourite powers. Fusion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fusion.htm).


The fused being has your current hit points plus the other creature’s current hit points. The fused being knows all the powers you and the other creature know, has the sum of your and the other creature’s power points, and knows or has prepared any spells you or the other creature possesses (if any). Likewise, all feats, racial abilities, and class features are pooled


To be a valid target for Fusion, I first cast Reduce Animal on my triceratops, which, combined with Dungeonbred, reduces it to a cuddly medium size.
Then, I wildshape myself into a triceratops.
Then, I cast Fusion from an item of Fusion [8th level power], dinosaur and I become one.


Hit-points pool together, and bam!

Total :
1054 hp average. 1178 maxed.


Anyone see any problems?

Yes, I know the druid HP can likely be optimized further. Lost will to optimize after finishing the triceratoptimization.


TL;DL - Yo dawg, I put a triceratops in your triceratops so you can tank while you tank.

Fusion myself with an animal companion to gain lots of HP.

[Dragonsoul]

That does work, I don't know if its "your hitpoints" and your burning Gold every time you want to do(I may be slightly annoyed I didn't think off it)

[vampire2948]

That does work, I don't know if its "your hitpoints" and your burning Gold every time you want to do(I may be slightly annoyed I didn't think off it)

You can spend a bit more gold and make the item of fusion a constant effect thing. 20th level WBL covers it.

And it should count as 'my hitpoints' since I'm only using my class features to gain them. Or would you argue that the HP gained by toughness aren't yours, they instead belong to the feat?

:smallwink:

Vamp,

[Icewalker]

Dear god Fusion is absurd for this.

Now I need to find a way to incorporate it into what I've been building. :smalltongue:

I think mine may beat out yours without it though, just slightly. We'll see. Oh, and you can't take Improved Toughness more than once.

Okay, DEAR GOD is Fusion effective for this. I'm going to first finish this up without it, and then start considering how to go about using it.

[hr]
The basic idea here was suggested by Thrice Dead Cat back on page 1.


Race is Petal, from MM3. LA +2, gives a +8 to Cha and +4 to Int. Also it means that this character, the character built for the sole purpose of having as many hit points as possible, is a pixie lich. And at that, a pixie lich who wears horseshoes. And rides a toad.
LA 2 / Wizard 1 / Cleric 5 / Walker in the Waste 10 / Incarnum 1 / Fighter 1

TOTAL AVERAGE HP: 1136.5
(And she can cast some clerical spells to boost temporary hp too!)

HD: 18d12: 122.5 hp average
Intelligence: +342 hp
Charisma: +450 hp
Toughnesses: +66 hp
Slow trait: +18
Vitality Belt: +27 hp
Familiar: +3 hp

Desecrated: +36 hp
Corpsecrafter: +36 hp
Necromancer: +36 hp



Intelligence: 48 / +19. Bonus to hp provided by Faerie Mysteries Initiate.
Base 18
+2 level bonuses
+4 Racial
+5 Tome (Inherent)
+6 Headband (Enhancement)
+3 Age
+10 Horseshoes

Charisma: 60/ +25. Bonus to hp provided by Dry Lich.
Base 18
+2 level bonuses
+8 Racial
+5 Tome (Inherent)
+6 Cloak (Enhancement)
+2 Dry Lich
+3 Age
+2 Unseelie Fey
+2 Magic-Blooded
+4 Righteous Aura (Sacred)
+4 Devil's Ego (Profane)
+4 Horseshoes


Unseelie Fey: -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Charisma.
Magic Blooded: +2 Charisma, -2 Wisdom

Feats:
F: Faerie Mysteries Initiate (Int to hp)
F: Heat Endurance (Qualify for Walker in the Waste)
1: Greater Toughness
3: Corpsecrafter
6: Dragon's Toughness (Thank you, Shun The Dark Chaos)
9: Dragon's Toughness
12: Shape Soulmeld (Vitality Belt)
15: Extra Essentia
18: Dragon's Toughness
Fighter: Dragon's Toughness

Between the two +5 tomes, the two +6 enhancement items, the continuous Devil's Ego and Righteous Aura spells, and the Horseshoes of Flame (savage species, she has cross class UMD for the purpose of 'Emulate Race: Horse'), she has about 210000 gp to spare. For another 288000 I'd get continuous Snowsong, which is a +4 Morale bonus to Charisma. I figure a good chunk of that 210000 goes to paying for Shun The Dark Chaos though.

[Alleine]

Cast Awaken from an item on the Triceratops and it gains an int score, and +2 HD.

An awakened animal cannot serve as an animal companion, and thus loses all the benefits of being an animal companion.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm


Take Toughness twice, and Improved Toughness seven times.
Granting an additional 2(3)+7(24) HP = 174

Improved toughness does not state that it can be taken multiple times(unlike regular toughness) and therefore cannot be taken multiple times.


EDIT: ^^ That... that's a lot of hp for a pixie O_O

[Icewalker]

Sure is! Lich pixie wearing horseshoes riding a toad, no less.

So, as regards Fusion. It says the fused being has the sum of your current hp and their current hp. It also says use the higher creature's HD, and pool abilities.

Does the first part refer to total hit points? If so, what about abilities like that of the Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat? It seems like it may be that that sum is the new creature's current hit points, and it's maximum would be based on HD and Con as normal?

It's more fun that way too, cause then we could combine a lich with a non undead and the summing creature would get Int, Cha, and Con to hp. :smallbiggrin:


Also, your triceratops, you forgot to account for the loss of Con due to loss of size from Dungeonbred. That reduces it's Constitution by 4. So Dungeonbred actually cancels itself out in ability scores, for this all it does is drops the creature's size a step. Which is actually still very useful.

How did you qualify for Shapeshifter? It requires BAB +3...and 10 ranks Concentration.

[faceroll]

Well done Icewalker!

[Icewalker]

I'm working on a take two based on a combination of my idea and vampire's. Druid / Walker in the Waste lich with animal companion and Fusion...

...Well well well. I just discovered something quite interesting. That makes this build ABSURD. This is going to be fun.

[Sitzkrieg]

You can spend a bit more gold and make the item of fusion a constant effect thing. 20th level WBL covers it.


Well, if this is correct it opens up the floodgates.

With this, couldn't you fusion a fusion'd creature with another creature? This would add as many bodies as you can afford items for into a single hp pool.

Additionally, the fusioned creature appears to have a max hp equal to the sum of current hit points of its participants, meaning that temporary hit points at the time of the fusion will be retained permanently in the new being's hp. At this point, it's just a matter of maximizing wealth, to purchase enough amulets of constant fusion, then boosting each participant's hp with temporary hp prior to fusion. This is pretty stinky cheese though, since none of this actually involves class features at all, and you'd need a pretty close reading of the fusion rules to accept that the temporary hp becomes permanent in the new being. Pretty cool idea for a villain though, as said villain could knock victims unconscious and absorb them to gain their powers and hit points.

[Icewalker]

Alright, so I started on this new attempt, but I think I won't be finishing it. It's a sweet base to work from if anybody else is interested.

There's a fun thing. Natural Bond? Technically it makes up for the penalty from advanced animal companions.

So, if you can take it enough times (Approx. 9) using the same general build as vampire:

You can take a Dire Elephant (MMII) as your animal companion, and still be treated as a druid of 25th level. This means +16 additional HD, on top of it's regular 20. So when you fuse after all this is done, you'll have 36 HD. 37, actually, thanks to Warbeast.

I was still going dry lich with the druid. Here was the rough level mockup I had:


Fencer 1 / Focused Animal Variant Druid 7 / Walker in the Waste 10 / Beastmaster 1 / ??? 1

Still an open level. The Fencer level is for Skill Focus (Handle Animal) as a bonus feat. The race has to be Human, something with Heat Endurance, or the level has to give a bonus feat, otherwise you can't reach the full effective 25th level druid.

[Gorgondantess]

Why not combine some ideas? Venerable Dragonwrought kobold & WitW.
Build:
Generic Spellcaster 5/WitW 10/Generic Warrior 4/Generic Expert 1.

2 feats from flaws, 2 from dark chaos shuffle on weapon proficiencies, 7 normal feats, and 7 from classes nets you 18 feats, one of which must be spent for WitW, one for Dragonwrought, and how about another one for faerie mysteries. So Epic Toughness 15 times, for a total of 450 from feats.
240 from class levels, assuming max'd HP.
Slow trait adds an additional 20.
18 starting intelligence and charisma, of course. 21 from age. 27 from enhancement. 32 from inherent. 34 from lichiness.
Then, one gets another 5 from levelups.
Let's say +12 bonus from intelligence, and +14 from charisma. You're getting +26 hp per level, netting an additional 520 hp.
Grand total is 1230 HP. Is dark chaos shuffle and generic classes cheating? You bet.:smallcool:
And that's just for starters. We have an excess level there that grants neither bonus feat nor regular feat, and we don't need the 20th level ability score boost, so I could probably throw on a handful more with a template. Combine that with Icewalker's intelligence and charisma cheesing, and we definitely have a winner here.
EDIT: Just realized I could get a handful more bonus feats with dark chaos by going for weapon/armor proficiencies; 6, I believe. So that's, what, another 180 hp? Not bad.

[Icewalker]

I'd say no chaos shuffle on weapon proficiencies, because they aren't actually feats.

I don't even know what these generic classes are, but I have no idea how you're getting 7 feats from them.

You can't take Epic Toughness.

I would also note: dragonwrought kobold is totally unnecessary. It's a waste of a race and a feat. Just be venerable. Who cares about the penalties.

[faceroll]

I'd say no chaos shuffle on weapon proficiencies, because they aren't actually feats.

I don't even know what these generic classes are, but I have no idea how you're getting 7 feats from them.

You can't take Epic Toughness.

I would also note: dragonwrought kobold is totally unnecessary. It's a waste of a race and a feat. Just be venerable. Who cares about the penalties.

Dragonwrought turns you into a true dragon. True Dragons qualify for epic feats. Take Epic Toughness.

[Cieyrin]

Yup.

I believe the dark pact was what, five feats? If we say, swear allegiance to every elder evil(possible hilarious repercussions of this aside), that gets us a large source of non-evil feats.

And we can pay people to cast spells for us, presumably. Or craft scrolls. So, if WBL is more expendable than XP, that's an option.

Each Dark Pact gives 5 feats, one at 1st and the other 4 at levels divisible by 5. The description in Elder Evils doesn't specify you can't swear to more than one Elder Evil but that's probably not the design intention but whatev. There are 9 Elder Evils, so swearing to them all gets you 45 feats. That's a lot of Toughness and its bigger brothers for free.

Also, since people keep forgetting, Toughness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#toughness) is not a Fighter feat! You can't spend Fighter bonus feats on Toughness or any of the variants, including Epic Toughness if you're not an Epic Fighter or other full BABer, since each of those epic progressions have it on their bonus feat list. The only exception is Improved Toughness, which is on the Fighter Bonus Feat list.

[Tyndmyr]

I'd say no chaos shuffle on weapon proficiencies, because they aren't actually feats.

I don't even know what these generic classes are, but I have no idea how you're getting 7 feats from them.

You can't take Epic Toughness.

I would also note: dragonwrought kobold is totally unnecessary. It's a waste of a race and a feat. Just be venerable. Who cares about the penalties.

Dragonwrought kobold allows you to take epic toughness. It's the whole point of it.

I've used that trick in other builds before, actually.

I presume that they are relying on chaos shuffle for transforming bonus feats into toughness or w/e.

Hell, the fact that a dragonwrought kobold fighter gets a total of 18 feats is pretty epic. Toss in two for flaws, 45 for swearing to all the elder evils ever, and we can get epic toughness a total of 64 times, for 1920 hp from feats alone. Slight cheese required.

And that's comboable with all sorts of other things.

[enderlord99]

How does Dragonwrought make you a true dragon?:smallconfused:

[Tyndmyr]

How does Dragonwrought make you a true dragon?:smallconfused:

Pop open draconomicon, and grab the description of true dragons from it, since it's the primary source on dragons.
Part 1. Be a dragon. If yer type isn't dragon, you can't be a true dragon. Dragonwrought exists to fix this.
Part 2. Improve as you go through age categories. Pop open Races of the dragon. Observe that the dragonwrought kobold age categories match those of the dragons, and that they suffer no aging penalties, but their stats increase.

Note also that you don't actually even need part 2 to get epic feats. You just need to be a dragon, and be age category "Old" or older. So...that's remarkably hard to argue against. Other ways of gaining the Dragon type will also work, provided you are of appropriate age.

Note that most epic feats have other prereqs that limit their utility to a subepic character...but epic toughness is not among them.

[enderlord99]

the dragonwrought kobold age categories match those of the dragons

Really? Then I guess that works.:smallredface:

[dextercorvia]

would 1 class level in a d4 HD class be worth it for an extra +2 CON? because if so, one level of sorc could let you into dragon disciple. the 8 STR would also be nice for a primary melee class, probably worth the BAB penalty of 4(3 for DD, 1 for sorc). I know it's not a great class in general, but it does seem to fit the bill here.

Duskblade gets you into DD without so much HP lost.

[Icewalker]

Well, if you can take epic toughness, yeah, sounds to me like 100% fighter is probably the best build, and there's not much optimization to be had...

Obviously it's time to make the character with the highest possible AC now...

[Cieyrin]

Well, if you can take epic toughness, yeah, sounds to me like 100% fighter is probably the best build, and there's not much optimization to be had...

Obviously it's time to make the character with the highest possible AC now...

I feel like a broken record, Toughness and all its relations, including Epic Toughness and excluding Improved Toughness, are not Fighter feats! The only one of the family that has the Fighter Bonus feat clause is Improved Toughness, that's all. Fighter does not help you in getting more instances of Toughness, Epic or otherwise!

[ArcanistSupreme]

I feel like a broken record, Toughness and all its relations, including Epic Toughness and excluding Improved Toughness, are not Fighter feats! The only one of the family that has the Fighter Bonus feat clause is Improved Toughness, that's all. Fighter does not help you in getting more instances of Toughness, Epic or otherwise!

I think that they are just using the feats to fuel the Chaos Shuffle.

[dextercorvia]

I think that they are just using the feats to fuel the Chaos Shuffle.

Which means that straight fighter might not be as good as something more diptastic. PsyWarrior2, Simple Rogue2, Monk2, Ranger1, certain Barbarian Totems, even Psion1 and Wizard1, basically anything that gets a feat at first level.

[Eldariel]

Which means that straight fighter might not be as good as something more diptastic. PsyWarrior2, Simple Rogue2, Monk2, Ranger1, certain Barbarian Totems, even Psion1 and Wizard1, basically anything that gets a feat at first level.

The more feats, the merrier. Cleric gets 3. Ranger...might be able to get 2 IIRC but I don't remember for sure. Wizard can get 2 (pick up the feat that gives you bonus Augment Summoning in exchange for bonus spells-or-WE from Conjuration specialization). And so on.

[Icewalker]

I feel like a broken record, Toughness and all its relations, including Epic Toughness and excluding Improved Toughness, are not Fighter feats! The only one of the family that has the Fighter Bonus feat clause is Improved Toughness, that's all. Fighter does not help you in getting more instances of Toughness, Epic or otherwise!

The Dwarf's / Giant's / Dragon's Toughness line are all fighter feats.

And, to copy from the SRD...


Epic Fighter Bonus Feat List
Armor Skin, Combat Archery, Damage Reduction, Devastating Critical, Dire Charge, Distant Shot, Epic Endurance, Epic Leadership, Epic Prowess, Energy Resistance, Epic Toughness, Epic Weapon Focus...


Wait a minute, I didn't see this before, that 1900 above was based on swearing to all the elder evils to get a stupid number of feats, which I wouldn't allow in even an optimizing challenge like this, way too cheesey. I'll bet you could find something that stops you, like something in descriptions saying that the Elder Evils don't tolerate people turning on them or require absolute devotion or something.

mkay, so, still, dragonwrought kobold is obviously a crazy good choice for the epic toughnesses, but they aren't going to pull off anything impressive alone.

[Alleine]

I'll bet you could find something that stops you, like something in descriptions saying that the Elder Evils don't tolerate people turning on them or require absolute devotion or something.


Any intelligent and evil creature can swear service to an
elder evil if the creature knows of its existence. Doing so
grants the creature one bonus feat, plus an extra bonus feat
for every five character levels or Hit Dice. These bonus feats
must be selected from among the vile feats given in the
accompanying table. Elder evils do not grant spells.

I guess technically you'd need to buff a knowledge skill or two to be able to learn of the existence of all of the Elder Evils. The Evils are all either outsiders or aberrations with exception of Atropus which is Undead. So you just need to max out Religion, The Planes, and Dungeoneering. Pretty easy if you use your WBL to buy custom items of +30 to each of them.

[Infernalbargain]

Is epic toughness a bonus feat that can be taken by fighters who are epic or is it on the list of bonus feats to be taken by the epic fighter?

[Cieyrin]

The Dwarf's / Giant's / Dragon's Toughness line are all fighter feats.

Got out my copy of Masters of the Wild and I see I stand corrected. Checked the 3.0 PHB for good measure, though Toughness still isn't on the list. Guess the designers just didn't like Toughness.


Is epic toughness a bonus feat that can be taken by fighters who are epic or is it on the list of bonus feats to be taken by the epic fighter?

The Epic Bonus Fighter feat list is an addendum to the Bonus Fighter feat list, as noted here.


Armor Skin, Combat Archery, Damage Reduction, Devastating Critical, Dire Charge, Distant Shot, Epic Endurance, Epic Leadership, Epic Prowess, Energy Resistance, Epic Toughness, Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Specialization, Exceptional Deflection, Improved Combat Reflexes, Improved Manyshot, Improved Stunning Fist, Improved Whirlwind Attack, Infinite Deflection, Instant Reload, Legendary Commander, Legendary Rider, Legendary Wrestler, Overwhelming Critical, Penetrate Damage Reduction, Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting, Reflect Arrows, Spellcasting Harrier, Storm of Throws, Superior Initiative, Swarm of Arrows, Two-Weapon Rend, Uncanny Accuracy. In addition to the feats on this list, the fighter may treat any feat designated as a fighter bonus feat, but not listed here, as being on his or her bonus feat list.

Emphasis mine. You can't select Epic Fighter feats prior to getting into Fighter level 21+. Shenanigans involving Old Dragonwrought Kobold wouldn't get you into that, either, as it lets you select Epic feats, not make you an Epic Fighter.


I think that they are just using the feats to fuel the Chaos Shuffle.

That'd be permissable, since the Dark Chaos Shuffle doesn't care where you got the feats from. Rather costly method, though.

[faceroll]

That'd be permissable, since the Dark Chaos Shuffle doesn't care where you got the feats from. Rather costly method, though.

4900gp from an NPC spellcaster for trading out one feat.

[mucco]

I know there's an Eberron ritual of blood... "Blood of Vol" or something like that. I think I remember it allows you to move two points of Con into Cha and it's repeatable. If you're going the WitW route I guess it's probably going to be useful.

[Tyndmyr]

I feel like a broken record, Toughness and all its relations, including Epic Toughness and excluding Improved Toughness, are not Fighter feats! The only one of the family that has the Fighter Bonus feat clause is Improved Toughness, that's all. Fighter does not help you in getting more instances of Toughness, Epic or otherwise!

As previously mentioned, Chaos Shuffle fixes all of this.


Wait a minute, I didn't see this before, that 1900 above was based on swearing to all the elder evils to get a stupid number of feats, which I wouldn't allow in even an optimizing challenge like this, way too cheesey. I'll bet you could find something that stops you, like something in descriptions saying that the Elder Evils don't tolerate people turning on them or require absolute devotion or something.

I could expand this further by chilling in an Otoyugh Hole or visiting other magical locations. And so are as I'm aware, there is no restriction preventing you from swearing allegiance to multiple elder evils in turn, and gaining the benefits of each.

We do have a lot of wbl to use, so pouring it into chaos shuffle isn't a bad use. Just gotta reserve enough for +6 enhancement bonus and +5 inherent. Presumably we're not allowing custom statboost items, as that gets silly as well.

[Cieyrin]

Presumably we're not allowing custom statboost items, as that gets silly as well.

Higher bonuses would get into epic magic item construction and that annoying x10 cost modifier, anyways. Or do you mean alternative bonus types to enhancement and inherent, as an Insight bonus to Constitution just seems weird...

"I navel gaze myself into better wellness!" :smallbiggrin: