What do Incarnates do?

[Alabenson]

In most discussions of the three incarnum using classes that I've, the Incarnate class has generally been described as a Tier-3 class, but having recently read the book, I simply don't see it. Most of their abilities and soulmelds seem to be geared towards melee combat, but the class seems to have neither the BAB nor the HD to get anywhere near melee without significant buffs. At the same time, the soulmelds that I looked at all apeared to either be fairly underwhelming or melee focused. Please tell me what am I missing here?

[Seerow]

I don't think any of the Incarnum classes are actually officially ranked, and there's probably room for argument both ways.

I'd guess if they got to tier 3, it's because number of soul melds gave enough options for them to be considered more versatile than your typical tier 4 or 5 character, even if they aren't quite as powerful as some.

edit: That said, I'm not expert on Incarnum, having never actually played a campaign with it, and having read the book only once a few months back. So I'll leave more in depth arguments to others. I will however be grabbing my popcorn.

[AmberVael]

Incarnate is kind of a wacky class that I would say doesn't really have a role. With fighter you can point out what they're supposed to do, and with Wizard you can point out the far too many roles they CAN fill, but Incarnate doesn't make an effort to fit into a niche and doesn't have anything particularly blatant about its powers that would throw it one way or another.

To be honest, I'm pretty sure that Incarnate is a low tier 3, only rescued by the virtue that there are a good number of soulmelds and you can potentially access any of them from day to day. Any one configuration of soulmelds makes about a tier 4 character, but the capability to change between them (even only once per day!) makes them a bit more versatile. Use of good feats and magic items can help you out a lot too.

To get back to the main question, Incarnates can do a lot of things, but generally it is best to go into the class with what you want it to do in mind. You can make them a decent combat class just by sticking on a lot of combat focused soulmelds and buffing them into the stratosphere, and you can also make a decent skill monkey (or both). They also get a small number of nifty soulmelds which just give them general options and powers that really help out (turning weapons into force effects, gaining evasion and uncanny dodge, flight, miss chances, fire damage to anyone who hits them, extra hit points...)

In general, however, your best bet IS combat. It's a bit weird, and takes a bit of knowledge on how to go about it though.

[HunterOfJello]

I'd like to hear from someone who has experience playing one too. Totemists look better on paper just from looking at the totem chakras, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that an optimized Incarnate can get pretty good. It always surprises me when I remember that they're 1/2 BAB though.

[TroubleBrewing]

I asked about this a little while back. The general consensus is that Totemist is tier 3, Incarnate is high tier 4-low tier 3, and Soulborn is tier don't-even-bother.

[Zaq]

What do Incarnates do, you ask? Well, what do you NEED them to do? They probably do that.

Incarnates are a lot like Binders. Most characters will pick two or three favorite tricks and stick with 'em, but they CAN do plenty of other things.

Just out of the box, they make good (if very different) skillmonkeys, they can be good frontliners, and if you've got a way of drawing attention to yourself, they're DAMNED hard to kill. That's without doing anything fancy.

They also have a lot of niche abilities which you may or may not find anywhere else, at least not for the same level of investment.

[AmberVael]

Just for clarity- I've played and made a number of incarnum characters (usually high level, mind, I think Incarnate is a bit less shiny at low levels), and my impression of the Incarnate in particular is that it can really fool you. It has a terrible number of skill points, low hit points, and poor BAB. All it has going for it is soulmelds... but man do those soulmelds go. Incarnate is probably one of the few classes that can quite legitimately pick up a +5 weapon by level 9. And think their HP is low? The same incarnate can also maintain an extra 27 hit points with only minor investment (essentially meaning their hd is d12, not d6), and pick up evasion, and probably +3 to hit (or +6 to damage) at the same time, while also keeping handy any other single soulmeld that fits their current situation. It's no Tome of Battle combatant, but all that from a few soulmelds makes them a bit scarier than you'd expect. Splash in some good feats (incarnum and otherwise) and they're probably more formidable than a fighter in combat, at least, and more capable outside it too.

[TroubleBrewing]

Splash in some good feats (incarnum and otherwise) and they're probably easily more formidable than a fighter in combat, at least, and infinitely more capable outside it too.

Edited for emphasis. :smallbiggrin:

[Midnight_v]

In most discussions of the three incarnum using classes that I've, the Incarnate class has generally been described as a Tier-3 class, but having recently read the book, I simply don't see it. Most of their abilities and soulmelds seem to be geared towards melee combat, but the class seems to have neither the BAB nor the HD to get anywhere near melee without significant buffs. At the same time, the soulmelds that I looked at all apeared to either be fairly underwhelming or melee focused. Please tell me what am I missing here?

Well here's the link to the hand book. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6920.0) That guy really knows his incarnum.

[SiuiS]

Incarnum is one of those weird things that WotC did. Incarnum is the single most balanced, well made and all-inclusive system to come out of 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons.
The problem is, if you have a choice of a balanced splat class, or Druid/cleric/wizard, then Incarnum looks bad by comparison because the core classes are busted.


I'd like to hear from someone who has experience playing one too. Totemists look better on paper just from looking at the totem chakras, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that an optimized Incarnate can get pretty good. It always surprises me when I remember that they're 1/2 BAB though.

Incarnate plays like an unoptimized wizard, or like a basic bard.
You have a bunch of options, and if you don't pick the right ones, you're screwed for the day. I myself had a couple weeks of preparing escape options (flight, miss chance, DR) on surprise-arena combat day, and prep'd combat options (3d6 electric+1d8+X negative energy, DR) on days when I'd have a chance to escape. The DM was displeased, considering I spent two weeks longer in chains than he'd anticipated :smallbiggrin:

At low levels you are a standard low level character. Anything you don't destroy will destroy you. Around level 3, 4 you get a huge boost to power; the Incarnate's increased essentia capacity kicks in at 3 I think, boosting your everything by a lot.

Totemist seemed bad on paper when I read it; sure, you're a combat beast, but that's it. At least the incarnate can do other stuff, like skill monkey-ing or surviving in the wilderness... But there were dozens of times I'd seriously debated picking up the feat to give myself some Totemist melds. Or even soulborn melds! Some of those are good.

The Totemist can hit some 11 natural attacks in a round. So the Totemist trumps a chaos monk/whirling frenzy barbarian in the attack & damage output department. Ankheg breastplate gives armor and acid spit, too. Haven't played one, but I've been tempted.

Soulborn is the single worst class the game has ever seen. Commoner exceeds Soulborn. This is not hyperbole; it is that bad. By the time you actually get a decent class feature, you could just have been a paladin who took a feat (and have a higher meldshaper level). I've often thought about how to make them... You know, playable, but I can't fathom how.


I asked about this a little while back. The general consensus is that Totemist is tier 3, Incarnate is high tier 4-low tier 3, and Soulborn is tier don't-even-bother.

A Totemist can kill anything and probably survive anything. An incarnate could survive anything and probably kill Anything. They are complementary, and feel about on par to me. But the Totemist is breakable, the incarnate is not.


Well here's the link to the hand book. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6920.0) That guy really knows his incarnum.


If I recall, I had to reference this handbook a couple times before actually playing. It gives you a good sense of what the class can do with specialization, and also how far down each path you can go as a general incarnate.

If you decide to play an incarnate, I'd suggest making a list of common, basic builds. "combat build", "skill build", etc., so you have a list of what features your melds give you at any point in time. It makes the daily preparation a lot easier, and makes the DM less likely to cry foul if you happen to 'just have' a really good meld, because you'd say "I'll take the combat suite, but switch out [soulmeld X] for [soulmeld Y] today". It makes it easier to remember for the whole table that you changed it up.

[Greymane]

I'm glad this sort of thread came up, because I finally opted to get the book (Amazon gave me two, for some reason), and the system seems so... different than any other I've encountered in 3.5 that I had no huggin' idea where to start with it. I'm still lost with how the system works, but this thread is pointing a few nice things out to me.

And once I understand it, I suppose I'll look into common fixes for Soulborn.

[TroubleBrewing]

And once I understand it, I suppose I'll look into common fixes for Soulborn.

Ehhhhh... Don't bother. It'd be like trying to fix the Divine Mind. Most of the non-core 'magic' systems (Incarnum, Psionics, ToB- pretty much stuff that scares newer DMs) have some variant on "holy warrior", and out of those three, two of them are unfathomably horrid. ToB, however, has the Crusader, which is like the Even Better Sequel (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvenBetterSequel) to the Paladin.

It's strange that 3.5 would consistently screw up the 'holy warrior' archetype.

[Greenish]

It's strange that 3.5 would consistently screw up the 'holy warrior' archetype.Perhaps they took too much care not to step on cleric's toes. And of course they overestimated the effects of BAB.

[Person_Man]

Incarnates are highly effective tanks, with a good amount of utility mixed in.

Astral Vembraces: DR 2 + (2 * essentia)/magic. That's DR 4/magic at level 1, and DR 6/magic at level 3, and DR 8/magic at level 6.
Mantle of Flame: 1d6 + (1d6 * essentia) retributive fire damage whenever someone hits you. That's 2d6 at level 1 (enough to kill most enemies who hit you), 3d6 at level 3, and so on.
Necrocarnum Circlet bound to Crown: Necrocarnate Zombie. Better then a normal zombie, this basically turns your biggest/strongest slain enemy into your loyal tackle dummy.
Spellward Shirt: SPELL RESISTANCE. Screw you casters.
Flame Cincture bound to Waist: Fairly high Fire Resistance. Whenever prevent Fire damage, you can shoot it off as a Swift Action ranged touch attack the next turn. Ally dumps Fireball on top of you and enemies, deals 30 Fire damage to everyone, you resist damage, next round you deal another 30 Fire damage to one target.
Planar Ward: Immunity to mental control. When bound to your Throat, extraplanar creatures (ie, all Summoned creatures, demons, elementals, outsiders, etc) must Save or be Banished when they strike you.
Vitality Belt: Meldshaper level * essentia invested bonus hit points. Not much at low levels, but by mid-high levels it gets up into 100+ range.
Wind Cloak bound to Shoulders chakra: DR 2 + (2 * essentia)/- against all ranged attacks, and you can Deflect Arrows 1 + essentia invested times per round without needing a hand free, basically making you immune to many ranged attacks.
Fellmist Robe: Scaled Concealment (up to 50%) against all attacks made from at least 5 feet away from you, or at any distance if bound to Soul.
Impulse Boots: Uncanny Dodge. Evasion when bound to Feet.
Incarnum Radiance (class ability) + Incarnate Avatar + Incarnate Weapon + Necrocarnum Weapon + etc: At mid-high levels when you have more essentia, it's not hard to stack a bunch of different damage and/or to-hit combos, keeping up with and occasionally surpassing Power Attack. Google "Incarnum by the Numbers" if you want to see the math.
Elder Spirit and/or Mage's Spectacles: UMD. Allows you to basically auto-succeed on checks as early as level 3.
Dissolving Spittle: Ranged touch attack that you can use every round with a damage output better then a Warlock's Eldridge Blast.
Arcane Focus bound to Throat. When you damage someone with a spell, they must also Save (using your soulmeld's DC) or be Dazed. Find a Swift Action spell that deals damage.
Illusion Veil: Bonus to Illusion DCs. Illusions can be VERY useful.
Share Soulmelds feat: Allows your Animal Companion or Familiar to share the benefits of your soulmelds, basically doubling the usefulness and power of many of your soulmelds.


I could go on, because the Incarnate has a lot of different tricks. But I think we all get the point.

[Z3ro]

Ehhhhh... Don't bother. It'd be like trying to fix the Divine Mind. Most of the non-core 'magic' systems (Incarnum, Psionics, ToB- pretty much stuff that scares newer DMs) have some variant on "holy warrior", and out of those three, two of them are unfathomably horrid. ToB, however, has the Crusader, which is like the Even Better Sequel (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvenBetterSequel) to the Paladin.


I disagree that fixing the soulborn isn't worth it. There are two easy fixes, each of which addresses different problems with the class. You could simply gestalt it with soulknife in a non-gestalt game, or start meldshaping at level 1 (or both, really). Neither fix is particularly hard, and the incarnum using holy warrior is a cool concept.

[Dragonsoul]

I'll admit to having little to add to this(Except to note I've had one player dumb Incarnate for being too confusing) and to curse thee who linked me to TVtropes!

[TroubleBrewing]

Yeah, that was my bad. :smalltongue: