Ignore a Geas?

[shadow_archmagi]

So, let's say that Captain Hero and the Adventure Friends are confronting the Bad Person, and somehow, Captain Hero gets hit by a Geas. Maybe they spoke for ten minutes while the Bad Person cast it silently, maybe the Bad Person used it as a spell like ability.

Captain Hero is level 9, and ignoring the spell does 3d6 damage per day. Thus, as long as he doesn't take any other damage during the day, a good night's sleep will probably undo the damage. If he rolls really badly, he can always just spend the day in bed for 18 HP, or have a pretty nurse spend the night with him for the same effect.

Can't he just ignore the Bad Person's quest?

[TroubleBrewing]

Yup. 2e "Quest" was so much worse.

[SowZ]

So, let's say that Captain Hero and the Adventure Friends are confronting the Bad Person, and somehow, Captain Hero gets hit by a Geas. Maybe they spoke for ten minutes while the Bad Person cast it silently, maybe the Bad Person used it as a spell like ability.

Captain Hero is level 9, and ignoring the spell does 3d6 damage per day. Thus, as long as he doesn't take any other damage during the day, a good night's sleep will probably undo the damage. If he rolls really badly, he can always just spend the day in bed for 18 HP, or have a pretty nurse spend the night with him for the same effect.

Can't he just ignore the Bad Person's quest?

No. The spell description says if the player is prevented from fulfilling the quest, he takes the damage. Any day he is not attempting the quest for whatever reason, he takes 3D6. But the description says a Geased creature must follow the instructions.

There are other interpretations, of course. I don't hold by them.

[Jack_Simth]

So, let's say that Captain Hero and the Adventure Friends are confronting the Bad Person, and somehow, Captain Hero gets hit by a Geas. Maybe they spoke for ten minutes while the Bad Person cast it silently, maybe the Bad Person used it as a spell like ability.

Captain Hero is level 9, and ignoring the spell does 3d6 damage per day. Thus, as long as he doesn't take any other damage during the day, a good night's sleep will probably undo the damage. If he rolls really badly, he can always just spend the day in bed for 18 HP, or have a pretty nurse spend the night with him for the same effect.

Can't he just ignore the Bad Person's quest?
Nope.

"This spell functions similarly to lesser geas..."
So we look up Lesser Geas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasLesser.htm):
A lesser geas places a magical command on a creature to carry out some service or to refrain from some action or course of activity, as desired by you. The creature must have 7 or fewer Hit Dice and be able to understand you. While a geas cannot compel a creature to kill itself or perform acts that would result in certain death, it can cause almost any other course of activity.

The geased creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is completed, no matter how long it takes.

If the instructions involve some open-ended task that the recipient cannot complete through his own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level. A clever recipient can subvert some instructions:

If the subject is prevented from obeying the lesser geas for 24 hours, it takes a -2 penalty to each of its ability scores. Each day, another -2 penalty accumulates, up to a total of -8. No ability score can be reduced to less than 1 by this effect. The ability score penalties are removed 24 hours after the subject resumes obeying the lesser geas.

A lesser geas (and all ability score penalties) can be ended by break enchantment, limited wish, remove curse, miracle, or wish. Dispel magic does not affect a lesser geas. (Emphasis added)

The damage clause in Geas simply replaces the ability score penalty.

[TroubleBrewing]

Wait, the lesser version is way, way better.

Regardless, just get a higher-level Cleric to cast Remove Curse. Boom, done.

Failing that, go to a metropolis-size city, find a 15th level Wizard, and pay them 2,550 GP to cast Limited Wish. If they don't know the spell, buy a scroll of Limited Wish (3775 GP) and have them cast it.

All Geas really does is cost you like 6K. :smallannoyed:

[SowZ]

Wait, the lesser version is way, way better.

Regardless, just get a higher-level Cleric to cast Remove Curse. Boom, done.

Failing that, go to a metropolis-size city, find a 15th level Wizard, and pay them 2,550 GP to cast Limited Wish. If they don't know the spell, buy a scroll of Limited Wish (3775 GP) and have them cast it.

All Geas really does is cost you like 6K. :smallannoyed:

Both underlined portions in Jacks post are also part of Geas/Quests text.

[SowZ]

Wait, the lesser version is way, way better.

Regardless, just get a higher-level Cleric to cast Remove Curse. Boom, done.

Failing that, go to a metropolis-size city, find a 15th level Wizard, and pay them 2,550 GP to cast Limited Wish. If they don't know the spell, buy a scroll of Limited Wish (3775 GP) and have them cast it.

All Geas really does is cost you like 6K. :smallannoyed:

Both underlined portions in Jacks post are also part of Geas/Quests text.

[Jack_Simth]

Wait, the lesser version is way, way better. Well, the penalties if you're strapped to a table are more severe, anyway, but really, they're just different versions of the same spell. Here's the text from Geas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasQuest.htm):

This spell functions similarly to lesser geas, except that it affects a creature of any HD and allows no saving throw.

Instead of taking penalties to ability scores (as with lesser geas), the subject takes 3d6 points of damage each day it does not attempt to follow the geas/quest. Additionally, each day it must make a Fortitude saving throw or become sickened. These effects end 24 hours after the creature attempts to resume the geas/quest.

A remove curse spell ends a geas/quest spell only if its caster level is at least two higher than your caster level. Break enchantment does not end a geas/quest, but limited wish, miracle, and wish do.

Bards, sorcerers, and wizards usually refer to this spell as geas, while clerics call the same spell quest.
Geas is downgraded a bit due to the relative value of damage vs. ability score penalties, but it's upgraded a bit in that there's no saving throw and no HD cap (but the ten minute casting time is a downer compared to 1 round).

What's really funny, though, is replicating the spell With Limited Wish or Miracle... which *technically* also removes the mind-affecting tag.

[MesiDoomstalker]

My group uses a modified version and is (mostly) only accessible by NPCs one way or another. As such, we the players do not know the exact extent of the penalties (we were hinted at that ignoring it will get penalties progressing in a quadratic manner) so we always worked to finish whatever it is quickly or at least stay on target.

[Telonius]

So, let's say that Captain Hero and the Adventure Friends are confronting the Bad Person, and somehow, Captain Hero gets hit by a Geas. Maybe they spoke for ten minutes while the Bad Person cast it silently, maybe the Bad Person used it as a spell like ability.

Captain Hero is level 9, and ignoring the spell does 3d6 damage per day. Thus, as long as he doesn't take any other damage during the day, a good night's sleep will probably undo the damage. If he rolls really badly, he can always just spend the day in bed for 18 HP, or have a pretty nurse spend the night with him for the same effect.

Can't he just ignore the Bad Person's quest?

... am I the only one who read the "3d6 points of damage" as being damage to the ability scores, and not hit points?

[Rossebay]

... am I the only one who read the "3d6 points of damage" as being damage to the ability scores, and not hit points?

No, that's how I read it too.

I think RAI is Ability Damage, making it MUCH more important.

[SiuiS]

I myself did not read it as ability damage, no. I figured that if it were going to remove the save and the hit-die cap, then 'downgrading' it to damage would make sense.

For extra fun, use a Violated Quest, where the 3d6 damage is permanent unless healed in a hallowed area. Most characters would be unable to get it fixed, until they could cast the spell hallow themselves, and deviating course to get healed would cost them 3d6 permanent hp drain a day.

I like that limited wish removes the mind-affecting tag, myself. Fabulous.

[Jack_Simth]

I like that limited wish removes the mind-affecting tag, myself. Fabulous.Yeah... Limited Wish has it's own school, subschool, and descriptor line... which doesn't include "[Mind-Affecting]" ... and thus, the lack of one overrides the existence of that tag on the base spell. It also works with Dominate Person on the mind-blanked Fighter, but Geas/Quest is funnier.

[SowZ]

Coming up with a ridiculous Gaes that still puts the fulfillment of the goal on the target whilst making them serve you as what is essentially a fully conscience thrall for a period of time that will in almost every probability be for the rest of the Gaesed creatures life, (barring the Gaes being removed,) without the Gaesed creature taking damage is also fun times.

[GoblinArchmage]

Well, it does say that "a clever recipient can subvert some instructions," which means that you could probably find a loophole that would allow you to pay somebody to end the spell.

[Yora]

If there is someone who has the ability to remove the spell, and you have the money to do so. Remove curse requires a 5th level cleric or 7th level wizard.
In the standard D&D setting, you'll find one in every city and 150 to 280 gp isn't anything to an adventurer.
But if you're not an adventurer or don't live in a major settlement, this could be a real problem.

[TroubleBrewing]

But if you're not an adventurer or don't live in a major settlement, this could be a real problem.

Outside of a few specific circumstances, this doesn't really apply to PCs, does it? :smalltongue:

[Yora]

No. And I don't think the spell was intended to be cast at PCs.

[TroubleBrewing]

And I don't think the spell was intended to be cast at PCs.

Interesting view. Can I ask why? (I can't stand the spell as written, and I usually use a version of "NPC casts a sppoooookkkyyy magic spell on you, and if you don't do gather the McGuffins together in time, spppoookkkkyy things will happen!")

I think that the trope is just so common in fantasy literature that it's impossible to not include it in a game like D&D. Care to elaborate your view?

[Dragonsoul]

If there is someone who has the ability to remove the spell, and you have the money to do so. Remove curse requires a 5th level cleric or 7th level wizard.
In the standard D&D setting, you'll find one in every city and 150 to 280 gp isn't anything to an adventurer.
But if you're not an adventurer or don't live in a major settlement, this could be a real problem.

Remove Curse requires a caster with a caster level 2 greater than the Geas wielder, which will usually be higher than Random McNPC,so your stuck with it until you can break out the big guns.

[Telonius]

It's always seemed to me that it's more of either a big quest-giver thing, an Oath of Vengeance, or a curse for seriously annoying some big and powerful entity. Something like, "You are DOOMED to wander the universe until you bring back the MacGuffin of Power!" The Doom of Mandos from the Silmarillion is the best fictional example that's coming to mind.

Remember, the casting time is ten minutes. This is not something you cast in combat, this is an oration. Geas/Quest is only a 6th-level Sorcerer/Wizard spell; but it's also a 6th-level Bard spell, the highest they can normally cast (without PrCing, etc). Something special is going to happen when this gets placed on someone.

[Fax Celestis]

I find Living Geas/Quest spells hilarious. On-hit geas/quest! They're technically not a viable target, but to solve that you just have to make it into a burst effect via Sculpt Spell or other shenaniganery.

[Cerlis]

considering most problems in existance are solveable with the right scroll, i find the idea of "its not a big deal cus you can just get a scroll or npc to remove it" a bit redundant.

Just as you wouldnt waste your time fireballing a fire elemental, you probably wouldnt waste time Geasing someone with the ability to easily remove the curse. Perfect for low level, or a sensible campaign. and i say sensible because the the availablility of casters is fully dependant on the DM, furthermore, there are several dynamics at work. including finding someone who knows the spell (cities arent just Magic item machines that pop out magic items and NPCs like a vending machine. Even if you have a city with a 50th lvl wizard, doesnt mean he happened to learn that spell). And finding someone WILLING to remove the spell. not a perfect example, but the idea of Haley stopping the cleric from casting remove curse because Belkar deserved the Geas, comes to mind. Any but (stupid) mercenary types would be careful about randomly disenchanting the machinations of other powerful spell casters. "who cast that on you" "Why did they do it" "Are you an enemy?" "Do i want to interfer in their plans?" "do you deserve to get out of this so easily"...all things the caster could be thinking


main point, this is one of the spells I can appreciate because the power behind it is roleplay based. Not mechanics based.

[Qwertystop]

Just cast it on someone, and make the geas this:
Do everything I tell you to do, ever.

There, open-ended.

Then just make your first orders "Do not attempt to get the Geas removed" and "Do not attempt to harm me in any way, personally or through a proxy".

Permanent slave. You could even order them to enjoy it, just in case.

(I read Ella Enchanted out of boredom yesterday. Surprisingly, actually a pretty good book)

[SowZ]

Just cast it on someone, and make the geas this:
Do everything I tell you to do, ever.

There, open-ended.

Then just make your first orders "Do not attempt to get the Geas removed" and "Do not attempt to harm me in any way, personally or through a proxy".

Permanent slave. You could even order them to enjoy it, just in case.

(I read Ella Enchanted out of boredom yesterday. Surprisingly, actually a pretty good book)

This may violate the whole cannot complete the Gaes by their own actions thing, though.

[Qwertystop]

This may violate the whole cannot complete the Gaes by their own actions thing, though.

Ah, missed that. Add "until you have served me well enough that I tell you you can leave" or "until you have spent 1 year following my orders"

The first is still open-ended, but might get past that clause, while the second gives you at least a year (more if there is any time between tasks) before you need to recast. An intelligent slave for 1 spellcast a year is pretty good.

[SowZ]

Ah, missed that. Add "until you have served me well enough that I tell you you can leave" or "until you have spent 1 year following my orders"

The first is still open-ended, but might get past that clause, while the second gives you at least a year (more if there is any time between tasks) before you need to recast. An intelligent slave for 1 spellcast a year is pretty good.

I don't think the first one would work, (it requires the caster to say something so it requires someone elses actions,) but the second could depending on the DM. I still wouldn't allow it, since it requires time to pass and not just an action of the Gaesed. Otherwise, it could just as easily be ten years. I would interpret that you could say, 'serve me and do everything I say until you save my life in combat and then stand there waiting for me to cast Gaes on you again.'

[Togath]

Another interesting way of using geas I've wondered about is this;
can you make two opposing geas in order to use it offensively?, Ones that don't trigger at once, but only under a certain circumstance.
Like the legend of Cúchulainn and his geasa to always eat food that was offered, and to never eat dog meat, neither had any negative effect until a hag offered him dog meat to eat, regardless of his choice in that scenario he breaks one of his geasa, and therefore suffers the effects.
(in legends the effect of breaking geasa is usually death[which usually doesn’t occur in dnd as you can in theory heal the damage before it kills you, though it would make the spell more interesting if it could])

[molten_dragon]

... am I the only one who read the "3d6 points of damage" as being damage to the ability scores, and not hit points?

I've never read it that way. If that was the intention, it's certainly written quite poorly.

[gariba]

Just recast lesser geas a day before it expires, always giving the order "obey and serve me until I release you from my service". Also before casting the spell order him not to resist (fail his will save). Frankly, a 4th level spell every few days for a permanent slave it a negligible cost.

[Scow2]

I don't think the first one would work, (it requires the caster to say something so it requires someone elses actions,) but the second could depending on the DM. I still wouldn't allow it, since it requires time to pass and not just an action of the Gaesed. Otherwise, it could just as easily be ten years. I would interpret that you could say, 'serve me and do everything I say until you save my life in combat and then stand there waiting for me to cast Gaes on you again.'If the caster doesn't get into combat before the Geas' clock expires, though, it ends because the condition becomes one the person couldn't do under their own power.

[Brookshw]

Huh, yet another reason protection from evil (or X) is one of the best spells ever.

[Zanos]

considering most problems in existance are solveable with the right scroll, i find the idea of "its not a big deal cus you can just get a scroll or npc to remove it" a bit redundant.

Just as you wouldnt waste your time fireballing a fire elemental, you probably wouldnt waste time Geasing someone with the ability to easily remove the curse. Perfect for low level, or a sensible campaign. and i say sensible because the the availablility of casters is fully dependant on the DM, furthermore, there are several dynamics at work. including finding someone who knows the spell (cities arent just Magic item machines that pop out magic items and NPCs like a vending machine. Even if you have a city with a 50th lvl wizard, doesnt mean he happened to learn that spell). And finding someone WILLING to remove the spell. not a perfect example, but the idea of Haley stopping the cleric from casting remove curse because Belkar deserved the Geas, comes to mind. Any but (stupid) mercenary types would be careful about randomly disenchanting the machinations of other powerful spell casters. "who cast that on you" "Why did they do it" "Are you an enemy?" "Do i want to interfer in their plans?" "do you deserve to get out of this so easily"...all things the caster could be thinking


main point, this is one of the spells I can appreciate because the power behind it is roleplay based. Not mechanics based.
There are rules for determining what spells/scrolls are available in a given city if you're in a "standard" magic campaign. Limiting access to items/services is pretty arbitrary, and it reminds me of the story of where a DM rolled to see if a shop owner had items the players were asking for, and after an hour everyone was just frustrated. If you want to ban a spell, just ban it. It's much cleaner.

That said I usually find mind controlling PC's to be poor form, since it removes player agency.

[dascarletm]

That said I usually find mind controlling PC's to be poor form, since it removes player agency.

I disagree. While copious use of mind control can be frustrating and poor form, I think that a compulsion every once-and-a-while can lead to interesting scenarios. Geas specifically removes some choices available to players, but they can still complete/subvert the geas in any means they can think of.

[Scow2]

However, the Demonic Possession rules in the BoVD are completely broken.

CR 7 monsters should NOT be forcing DC 22+ Will save-or-lose-your-character saves.

[Brookshw]

However, the Demonic Possession rules in the BoVD are completely broken.

CR 7 monsters should NOT be forcing DC 22+ Will save-or-lose-your-character saves.

Considering that's negated by a first level spell?

[Jack_Simth]

Considering that's negated by a first level spell?One that's only minutes/level?

[dascarletm]

One that's only minutes/level?

Plenty of time to force the sucker out and destroy it. :smallwink:

[Sith_Happens]

Plenty of time to force the sucker out and destroy it. :smallwink:

It's too bad the only RAW way to perform an exorcism is with a specific prestige class from a different book.

[Deophaun]

Remember, the casting time is ten minutes. This is not something you cast in combat, this is an oration.
I had a DFA with baleful geas, which we kept at the 1/round casting time on the condition that I wouldn't abuse it too horribly. At one point in a battle I took out an empty jar and geased an ogre with the instructions to "bring this back to me filled with moonlight." Four sessions later, the ogre showed up with a very angry pixie.

[Brookshw]

One that's only minutes/level?

Eh, its a class feature for paladin and a level one permanent magic item of it is dirt cheap.


It's too bad the only RAW way to perform an exorcism is with a specific prestige class from a different book.

Well its not possessing you so where is it?

[nedz]

Thread Necromancy

[Gemini476]

I had a DFA with baleful geas, which we kept at the 1/round casting time on the condition that I wouldn't abuse it too horribly. At one point in a battle I took out an empty jar and geased an ogre with the instructions to "bring this back to me filled with moonlight." Four sessions later, the ogre showed up with a very angry pixie.

Baleful Geas is pretty nice, yeah. At-will, standard action Geass at level 11? Sweet! And the only nerf it gets is that the target takes 1d4 Strength damage every 24 hours (unless it is immune, in which case it's 2d4 damage) and is freed once it reaches 0 Strength. That's not that big of a nerf, to be honest.

I guess you can use some tricks to get ordinary Geas down to a usable timeframe, but I can only think of Limited Wish and maaaybe finding some way to turn it into an area spell and use Arcane Archer with it?

[Wardog]

Another interesting way of using geas I've wondered about is this;
can you make two opposing geas in order to use it offensively?, Ones that don't trigger at once, but only under a certain circumstance.
Like the legend of Cúchulainn and his geasa to always eat food that was offered, and to never eat dog meat, neither had any negative effect until a hag offered him dog meat to eat, regardless of his choice in that scenario he breaks one of his geasa, and therefore suffers the effects.
(in legends the effect of breaking geasa is usually death[which usually doesn’t occur in dnd as you can in theory heal the damage before it kills you, though it would make the spell more interesting if it could])

I think more specifically, in legends the effect of breaking geasa is usually a heroic last stand.

[Osiris]

No. And I don't think the spell was intended to be cast at PCs.

That actually makes sense (unlike everything else at this forum). One bad NPC casts this on some other NPC guy, and there you go, some whole new plot device thingy.
You could even have quests for low-level PC's to find a scroll of Break Enchantment or something to go save him from destruction, or whatever.

[Hytheter]

On the other hand, Geas is probably the best RAW way to railroad your players. :smallbiggrin:

I don't think the spell is as removable as people suggest though. Break enchantment doesn't work, and Remove Curse requires a caster level 2 higher than the caster of Geas. That probably rules out Scrolls, which are CL 5 in all likelihood, as opposed to Geas which is a minimum of about 11.